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[jstripes]

Transition SSJ4 from its prior timeline and make something similar. I prefer SSJ4 over God Goku just because God Goku feels lazy and easy to do.

I dunno, I think God Goku's form is pretty good for what its intent was. He's not some super-angry, 'roided-out hulk. He's in his original shape, with transcendent powers on a different level.

Anyway, why the fuck am I arguing about this? I need to go outside.

 

[Sandfox]

The shirt got ripped by ape form, but the yellow trousers and black shoes are still there. It's just the colour of his wrist/waist bands. He's not suddenly wearing a skirt.

What about characters revived in undamaged clothes? Or fusion in Z as mentioned above? Your hate on SSJ4 isn't working everyone. Try harder.

He belt completely changes as well lol. The shirt ripping thing makes no sense given that it just disappears whenever he tranforms even if he doesn't become an ape, which should destroy the rest of his clothes. Are the clothes part of the transformation or something for whatever reason?

The clothes things for dead people has more to do with the characters bodies either going with them to the afterlife or being restored to the point before death by the dragon. Its not really the same thing.

 

[Jaeger]

If that's the case feel free to quote where I stated SSJ4 was possible in the Saiyan arc. Your simply putting words into my mouth ....errrr posts.

I was merely commenting on how dumb the concept of SSJ4 is with the constant circle jerk of how new and unique "controlling" the great ape form was when it had already been under control perfectly fine before in Z.

If I was going to point anything, it would why would Goku get so much stronger controlling the Great Ape form or SSJ4 when in Z, it only gave a 10x boost.

Which makes SSJ4 redudant and useless considering a SSJ form with Kaioken would give a much larger boost. Which brings us back full circle of why the form doesn't really make any sense to me.

This kind of argument can be made about SS, SS2, and SS3. At the end of the day, everything post Frieza saga is a massive stretch. An attempt to create ways to make the enemies bigger and badder, and the good guys able to stand up to them. SS4 is only called 4 because of when it debuted. It could has easily been 2, or an off-shoot style transformation that deviates from the SS1 lineage or powerups. This is actually how I see it, anyway.

"SSJ4" is a different way of going beyond the limits of the base form, and instead of using anger to achieve it, it is gained through ultimate self control in a form where most Saiyans literally lose their minds.

 

[ArchedThunder]

The shirt got ripped by ape form, but the yellow trousers and black shoes are still there. It's just the colour of his wrist/waist bands. He's not suddenly wearing a skirt.

What about characters revived in undamaged clothes? Or fusion in Z as mentioned above? Your hate on SSJ4 isn't working everyone. Try harder.

His wrist bands change color, his belt changes color and style and his ankle wraps are replaced by something else entirely that is also a different color. Also they came out of nowhere because his clothes were destroyed when he when Oozaru but then he sudden had clothes on when he became SSJ4 for the first time.

 

[javac]

SS4 is basically the evolution of the Great Ape right? Like, the power of the great ape concentrated to a smaller body, mixed with the stats one would get with a SS transformation, from the speed and nimbleness boosts to all of the techniques and fighting abilities he's learned over the years. It's kind of weird, because isn't one of the things that SS4 is known for is how animalistic it makes its 'user' become, with Goku becoming more cocky and arrogant? Almost like an ape.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

that would be because it isn't like those other levels, it's a different branch and really shouldn't even be called SSJ4.

It makes sense for what it is which is a controlled Oozaru

No, it's definitely the same branch. It's not a controlled Oozaru. It's a controlled SSJ Oozaru. So you're a giant ape who goes SSJ, and then somehow you shrink back into a human form except you still have your ape fur except it goes pink and your SSJ golden hair actually grows but reverts to black at the same time. It's a total mess.

 

[FATALITY]

can i have a saiyan hair plaese?

 

[The Silver]

If that's the case feel free to quote where I stated SSJ4 was possible in the Saiyan arc. Your simply putting words into my mouth ....errrr posts.

I was merely commenting on how dumb the concept of SSJ4 is with the constant circle jerk of how new and unique "controlling" the great ape form was when it had already been under control perfectly fine before in Z.

If I was going to point out anything about plotholes, it would be why would Goku get so much stronger controlling the Great Ape form or "SSJ4" when in Z, it only gave a 10x boost.

Which makes SSJ4 redudant and useless considering a SSJ form with Kaioken would give a much larger boost. Which brings us back full circle of why the form doesn't really make any sense to me.

Going by the numbers in the daizenshuu SSJ4 WOULD/IS be the strongest form

SSJ1 gives a 50x boost
SSJ2 is a 100x
SSJ3 is 400x
SSJ4 is 50x SSJ1 boost added to the Oozaru 10x for a 500x boost


If Super Saiyan combined with Kaioken was a thing it would be the strongest provided you go past 10x kaioken.

 

[Jaeger]

No, it's definitely the same branch. It's not a controlled Oozaru. It's a controlled SSJ Oozaru. So you're a giant ape who goes SSJ, and then somehow you shrink back into a human form except you still have your ape fur except it goes pink and your SSJ golden hair actually grows but reverts to black at the same time. It's a total mess.

All those changes and differences point to it being a different branch or kind of transformation, not the same. This argument completely falls apart the more you read it.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

All those changes and differences point to it being a different branch or kind of transformation, not the same. This argument completely falls apart the more you read it.

The changes and differences are exactly what people complain about concerning the SSJ4 transformation. The SSJ1->2->3 progression makes sense. The Base form->Great Ape progression makes sense. The SSJ Great Ape->SSJ4 progression visually makes no sense at all.

 

[denx]

I grew up watching Dragon Ball, but I'm not gonna buy into the hype until we get more info about this new series (and until they confirm the entire old LA spanish dub cast is coming back).

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Going by the numbers in the daizenshuu SSJ4 WOULD/IS be the strongest form

SSJ1 gives a 50x boost
SSJ2 is a 100x
SSJ3 is 400x
SSJ4 is 50x SSJ1 boost added to the Oozaru 10x for a 500x boost


If Super Saiyan combined with Kaioken was a thing it would be the strongest provided you go past 10x kaioken.

The Daizenshuu never gave a power multipler for SSJ4, only SSJ 1-3 so I'd assume the multiplier would be SSJ3's boost x10.

Which would make me question how Vegeta's SSJ4 form would be anywhere near Goku's considering he only had access to SSJ2 in GT.

Who am I kidding we've probably put way more thought into this than Toei ever did.

 

[Jaeger]

The changes and differences are exactly what people complain about concerning the SSJ4 transformation. The SSJ1->2->3 progression makes sense. The Base form->Great Ape progression makes sense. The SSJ Great Ape->SSJ4 progression visually makes no sense at all.

It makes as much sense as it needs to. Just as much as a being who has only ever been shown with black hair, getting angry and getting yellow hair. Or a being who can burst out entire limbs in a few seconds from amputated areas. Or characters that do a symmetrical "dance" and fuse into a singular entity. Or a room in a large temple, that sits thousands of miles in the sky on a single bean-pole that in a few hours outside of it, a year passes in it. Or an alien that has to conceal his massive energy by altering his physiology into 3 drastically different forms. Or a technique that by holding two fingers to your forehead, allows you to "teleport" to any location in a fraction of a second. Or that these characters can fly. Or shoot beams of destructive energy from their hands, eyes, and mouths.

 

[The Silver]

The Daizenshuu never gave a power multipler for SSJ4, only SSJ 1-3 so I'd assume the multiplier would be SSJ3's boost x10.

Which would make me question how Vegeta's SSJ4 form would be anywhere near Goku's considering he merely had access to SSJ2.

Who am I kidding we've probably put way more thought into this than Toei ever did.

that's why you don't assume that and just go with the SSJ1 multiplier

Goku's Golden Oozaru certainly doesn't look like a SSJ3 monkey and SSJ2 disappeared in GT.

 

[NeonZ]

The point you were making was that SSJ4 was achievable in the saiyan arc like it's a plothole. Vegeta couldn't turn SSJ then, so SSJ4 was impossible. You're ignoring the SSJ4 conditions for a reductive argument.

I wouldn't really say its unrelated given that the golden oozaru is SSJ.

That's actually a problem created by GT itself and its rotating main writer position. In episode 55, Vegeta talks like becoming a SSJ4 has nothing to do with Golden Oozaru, but just controlling himself in Oozaru form. He even questions why he didn't become one in Z, and Bulma just says that it was due to lack of training. GT's later main writer didn't seem to pay much attention to previous GT episodes themselves (see also Uub suddenly being portrayed as weaker than the half Saiyans in the final battle).

After that episode, we get Vegeta's SSJ4 transformation following that new "logic". He rampages as a standard Oozaru, and only gets a golden aura (but not even actual golden fur) while becoming a SSJ4. So, that condition was implied in early GT, but the actual explanation given later contradicts that, and creates the plothole.

 

[Kito]

He belt completely changes as well lol.

He's not wearing a belt in SSJ4, that's a waist band, which kid Goku has underneath his shirt. Two entirely different objects for different purposes. The waist band is too hold his trousers, whereas the belt is to keep his shirt in place. That unnecessary belt for a shirtless SSJ4 got ripped along with the shirt.

The clothes things for dead people has more to do with the characters bodies either going with them to the afterlife or being restored to the point before death by the dragon. Its not really the same thing.

If they were restored from the point of death, they would have damaged clothes. The clothing inconsistency in Z and various animes in general is so prevalent you cannot target SSJ4 without also targetting Shenron and others for the same flaw. To end this realism issue: Piccolo and Kibito materalise clothes out of thin air. Buu turns people into candy.

 

[KidA Seven]

The original voice actors for many Dragon Ball/Z characters (Tenshinhan, Mr. Satan/Ox King, Karin, etc.) are dead and they've long since been recast.

That sucks. The turtle/satan voice actor was really good. I loved the little hesitation that can be heard. It was really funny.




As for SS4. I prefer the god form over that anyday.

 

[Kito]

After that episode, we get Vegeta's SSJ4 transformation following that new "logic". He rampages as a standard Oozaru, and only gets a golden aura (but not even actual golden fur) while becoming a SSJ4. So, that condition was implied in early GT, but the actual explanation given later contradicts that, and creates the plothole.

Incorrect. (Vegeta does turn into a Golden Great Ape before his SSJ4 transformation). Screenshot below of the linked episode.

No SSJ4 plothole here.

 

[uncredited male]

Goku and Gohan's VA is Masako Nozawa and she is 78. That is awesome.

I hope we see a woman go SS in this somewhere.

 

[NeonZ]

Incorrect. (Vegeta does turn into a Golden Great Ape before his SSJ4 transformation). Screenshot below of the linked episode.

No SSJ4 plothole here.

Huh. I had just rewatched that scene too before posting that, but you're right. Anyway, the previously mentioned recap episode with the actual explanation for the transformation still creates a plothole.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Incorrect. (Vegeta does turn into a Golden Great Ape before his SSJ4 transformation). Screenshot below of the linked episode.




No SSJ4 plothole here.

Well there's always the plot hole of Goku getting his tail back even though it was supposed to be permanently removed by Kami.

 

[Kito]

Huh. I had just rewatched that scene too before posting that, but you're right. Anyway, the previously mentioned recap episode with the actual explanation for the transformation still creates a plothole.

I rewatched 55 and Vegeta/Bulma never even detect SSJ Ozaru in their observations. Please could you link to a timestamped YouTube video where an explanation dismisses the Golden Great Ape, because they never even acknowledge it.

 

[Jigolo]

will we see kaioken x a million in this

 

[NeonZ]

I rewatched 55 and Vegeta/Bulma never even detect SSJ Ozaru in their observations. Please could you link to a timestamped YouTube video where an explanation dismisses the Golden Great Ape, because they never even acknowledge it.

That's exactly what I'm talk about though. They don't mention the Golden Great Ape at all, and even wonder why Vegeta didn't become a SSJ4 back in DBZ since he controlled the Great Ape. They have this entire conversation about how to become a SSJ4 and completely ignore the Golden Great Ape, talking about control as the only requisite to become a SSJ4. The assumption people made based on what happened on screen makes sense, but the actual explanation given in the flashback/exposition episode doesn't.

 

[jstripes]

Going by the numbers in the daizenshuu SSJ4 WOULD/IS be the strongest form

SSJ1 gives a 50x boost
SSJ2 is a 100x
SSJ3 is 400x
SSJ4 is 50x SSJ1 boost added to the Oozaru 10x for a 500x boost


If Super Saiyan combined with Kaioken was a thing it would be the strongest provided you go past 10x kaioken.

This is why I'm out.

 

[Kito]

Well there's always the plot hole of Goku getting his tail back even though it was supposed to be permanently removed by Kami.

"Permanent". In a universe of magic, where death is undone and time is undone, a trivial tail removal can't be undone? Jesus

That's exactly what I'm talk about though. They don't mention the Golden Great Ape at all, and even wonder why Vegeta didn't become a SSJ4 back in DBZ since he controlled the Great Ape. They have this entire conversation about how to become a SSJ4 and completely ignore the Golden Great Ape, talking about control as the only requisite to become a SSJ4.

It is a speculative conversation, they aren't ignoring anything, they just don't clock on to it. And they don't talk 'about control as the only requisite', their entire speculation is on finding the missing condition, which they never do. Bulma alludes to the SSJ ape by concluding that Vegeta is 'stronger' (SSJ capable) now than in his regular ape days. They both commit to the generator machine on Bulma's belief it 'should' work.

Regardless of the clueless and speculative Vegeta/Bulma, the hard facts are no one has become SSJ4 without turning SSJ ape first.

EDIT:

The assumption people made based on what happened on screen makes sense, but the actual explanation given in the flashback/exposition episode doesn't.

An explanation is never given.

 

[Hidden One]

SS4 is basically the evolution of the Great Ape right? Like, the power of the great ape concentrated to a smaller body, mixed with the stats one would get with a SS transformation, from the speed and nimbleness boosts to all of the techniques and fighting abilities he's learned over the years. It's kind of weird, because isn't one of the things that SS4 is known for is how animalistic it makes its 'user' become, with Goku becoming more cocky and arrogant? Almost like an ape.

Eh Goku had a reason to become cocky as an SSJ4. Only problem he actually had was Omega Shenron..In his words...He "was at his maximum and got stronger during each blow". That's literally the only thing I liked about GT. SSJ4 looked awesome as fuck but I wish the fur would've stayed Golden.

 

[KHlover]

Well there's always the plot hole of Goku getting his tail back even though it was supposed to be permanently removed by Kami.

Kami is two ranks below a Kaioshin in the pecking order and Old Kaioshin is a skilled magician to boot. Don't see why he wouldn't be able to make Goku's tail grow back.

 

[Zubz]

I'm in the "SSJ4 was better than 2 & 3" situation; I always thought 3 jut looked awful, what with it just lengthening the hair and making the faces look downright abysmal. As much as I always thought it looked like Goku/Vegeta were wearing pink jumpsuits showing off their chests as a kid, it was far less ridiculous in my eyes. If transformations are coming back, I at least want SSJ4 to become canon.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Kami is two ranks below a Kaioshin in the pecking order and Old Kaioshin is a skilled magician to boot. Don't see why he wouldn't be able to make Goku's tail grow back.

I'd be okay with that if we were given an explanation that they could, but they don't give us one.

We're never shown how they knew it would work.

It's like hey, we need a new transformation so let's just make Goku grow his tail back for no reason and think of an explanation for SSJ4 later.

 

[ArchedThunder]

I'm in the "SSJ4 was better than 2 & 3" situation; I always thought 3 jut looked awful, what with it just lengthening the hair and making the faces look downright abysmal. As much as I always thought it looked like Goku/Vegeta were wearing pink jumpsuits showing off their chests as a kid, it was far less ridiculous in my eyes. If transformations are coming back, I at least want SSJ4 to become canon.

Anyone wishing that SSJ4 will show up in Super can just stop right now, there is zero reason to get your hopes up because it won't happen.

 

[ZombieVito]

Wait...Are people really expecting SSJ4 to appear in Super? LOL

That shit is not canon. It will never happen.

 

[Limit]

Toriyama already said no more transformations, which is a refreshing approach to the series.

Forget that noise. I want there to be at least 2 dozen extra transformations. Just go nuts on this front. Goku screaming his heart out and revealing a level above previous transformation is arguably the defining characteristic of this show. No need to shy away from it. Triple down on this mother and go where no fan fiction has gone before. Let goku eat a devil fruit on 3rd episode, awaken bankai on 10th, and find out he can talk to the ozaru sleeping inside his head and borrow his chi on 17th episode. While you are at it hook him up with some sharingan as well. Because, why not.

 

[Blader]

Going by the numbers in the daizenshuu SSJ4 WOULD/IS be the strongest form

SSJ1 gives a 50x boost
SSJ2 is a 100x
SSJ3 is 400x
SSJ4 is 50x SSJ1 boost added to the Oozaru 10x for a 500x boost


If Super Saiyan combined with Kaioken was a thing it would be the strongest provided you go past 10x kaioken.

When you put it like that, SSJ4 seems like a pretty marginal boost over 3.

 

[Kito]

Anyone wishing that SSJ4 will show up in Super can just stop right now, there is zero reason to get your hopes up because it won't happen.

SSJ4 haters can just stop. Why is there zero reason? The same studio that did GT is working on this. Toriyama said no more new transformations, SSJ4 satisfies that technicality. #TeamSSJ4

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I stumbled upon some cool fanart.

 

[Kaze Kyou]

I think for me the most exciting part is the potential to bring the humans & Piccolo up to speed again. Z and GT left them all in the dust and even Piccolo was relegated to the mentor of Goten and Trunks.

I'm still expecting the Super Saiyan show, but if the movies are any indication hopefully Krillin, Tien and (maybe) Yamcha can get some of the limelight back, maybe as a secondary force to wipe out big boss minions (Ginyu force, Androids, Dabura-type characters) while the Saiyans fight the bigger threat.

 

[Sandfox]

He's not wearing a belt in SSJ4, that's a waist band, which kid Goku has underneath his shirt. Two entirely different objects for different purposes. The waist band is too hold his trousers, whereas the belt is to keep his shirt in place. That unnecessary belt for a shirtless SSJ4 got ripped along with the shirt.



If they were restored from the point of death, they would have damaged clothes. The clothing inconsistency in Z and various animes in general is so prevalent you cannot target SSJ4 without also targetting Shenron and others for the same flaw. To end this realism issue: Piccolo and Kibito materalise clothes out of thin air. Buu turns people into candy.

If his shirt was getting ripped off it wouldn't magically reappear whenever he changed back to normal and the fact that we never see the waistband prior to SSJ4 and it matching the other articles of clothing that only appear after the transformation implies that he isn't wearing it as a child. SSJ4 is just weird in that aspect.

Also, characters keep their damaged clothes if their bodies weren't destroyed when brought back. Any other time their clothes have either been restored in the afterlife or by the dragon as a service. The clothes beams and Buu's magic abilities make sense given the characters.

SSJ4 haters can just stop. Why is there zero reason? The same studio that did GT is working on this. Toriyama said no more new transformations, SSJ4 satisfies that technicality. #TeamSSJ4

That's not even hating when you consider that GT doesn't fit in the new continuity and Super will likely take place in an earlier time period than GT.

 

[Zubz]

I think for me the most exciting part is the potential to bring the humans & Piccolo up to speed again. Z and GT left them all in the dust and even Piccolo was relegated to the mentor of Goten and Trunks.

I'm still expecting the Super Saiyan show, but if the movies are any indication hopefully Krillin, Tien and (maybe) Yamcha can get some of the limelight back, maybe as a secondary force to wipe out big boss minions (Ginyu force, Androids, Dabura-type characters) while the Saiyans fight the bigger threat.

I'd love to see that, too; I know they wanted to establish the Saiyans as super powerful, but after awhile one wondered why those characters even stuck around. Granted, I also want Raditz, Nappa, and the Ginyus themselves back in the new show and Yajirobe & Chi-Chi actually fight with the others, so it might just be me wanting to see every character around and able to fight at roughly-similar levels.

 

[Ishida]

Wait...Are people really expecting SSJ4 to appear in Super? LOL

That shit is not canon. It will never happen.

Yeah, and that is incredibly sad. Instead we are stuck with the craptastic Super Saiyan Gods.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

I'm so glad SS4 and the whole GT fiasco can finally be put to bed seeing as it's not canon. People will finally stop talking about the terrible design and we can move on....oh...

 

[Ishida]

I'm so glad SS4 and the whole GT fiasco can finally be put to bed seeing as it's not canon. People will finally stop talking about the terrible design and we can move on....oh...

Even if the new series overwrites the events of GT, GT will NEVER go away.

 

[javac]

This takes place after the new films, right? And I'm correct in assuming that they take place after the The Kid Buu Saga and before GT, assuming GT is a part of that continuity? In that case, SSJ4 isn't even a thing at this point in time, right? not seen the two recent films, so no idea what goes on in them.

 

[The Silver]

I don't know how AT resisted never bringing Raditz back and killing him off that early in the first place.

You'd think the main character's evil brother would have been a major character.

 

[Astral Dog]

A shame Revival of F

Spoiler

[was not a predule to this series a missed opportunity to give a hint at the end.

 

[Ishida]

This takes place after the new films, right? And I'm correct in assuming that they take place after the The Kid Buu Saga and before GT, assuming GT is a part of that continuity? In that case, SSJ4 isn't even a thing at this point in time, right? not seen the two recent films, so no idea what goes on in them.

GT is an alternate reality. It does not "happen" on the current (manga) continuity.

 

[Toad.T]

lol yeah.

Worst designs from left to right:

We-totally-forgot-that-character-already-existed

To be honest though, did anyone remember that the character existed? It'd be like someone calling you out for basing your design on Ran Fuan or one of the Spice Boys.

Fix'd

Are you a Toei employee?

 

[ArchedThunder]

SSJ4 haters can just stop. Why is there zero reason? The same studio that did GT is working on this. Toriyama said no more new transformations, SSJ4 satisfies that technicality. #TeamSSJ4

I don't hate SSJ4, I think it's one of the few great things about GT, but there is zero reason to ever think that they would recycle it into this, especially with Toriyama overseeing the series. Nothing from GT is going to be in this show and accepting that now will stop people from being disappointed about it when the show comes out.

 

[EGOMON]

This takes place after the new films, right? And I'm correct in assuming that they take place after the The Kid Buu Saga and before GT, assuming GT is a part of that continuity? In that case, SSJ4 isn't even a thing at this point in time, right? not seen the two recent films, so no idea what goes on in them.

They can just retcon GT plot but use its transformation for DBS.

I can understand people disliking GT I didn't like it myself but that doesn't mean it's related transformations and villains are bad.
The problem with GT was the execution each villain in GT had great potential especially super 17 and Shenron too bad they messed it up the way they did oh well DBS is our new hope.
#DragonBall4ever

 

[ArchedThunder]

They can just retcon GT plot but use its transformation for DBS.

I can understand people disliking GT I didn't like it myself but that doesn't mean it's related transformations and villains are bad.
The problem with GT was the execution each villain in GT had great potential especially super 17 and Shenron too bad they messed it up the way they did oh well DBS is our new hope.
#DragonBall4ever

No need to retcon GT, it doesn't even take place in the same universe as Toriyama's stuff and the two recent movies introduce plenty of new things that completely ignore GT in a huge way.
Toriyama didn't design SSJ4 so I doubt he'd be for repurposing it for DBS(though he did take Bardock, a TOEI creation). The reasoning he gave for SSG (and by extension SSGSS) being so simple is because he hated how complex and overdone the transformation designs had gotten, so he wanted to take things back down to a more basic level, SSJ4 is pretty much the complete antithesis to that design philosophy.