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New York Times: New Ferguson Video Adds Wrinkle to Michael Brown Case

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Reflects very badly on the police department, but doesn't really change the facts of the shooting, which is that Wilson shot Brown in self defence.

If you want to use individual cases to push forward a narrative about the treatment of black people by police in America, fine, but you might as well find some better ones.

If Brown never robbed the store, Wilson tried to arrest him for no reason. And if Wilson tried to arrest him for no reason based on profiling bullshit, then Wilson was in the wrong in the first place.

But it's never the kid defending himself from the cop.

This adds a huge hole in the narrative that Brown was some kind of violent kid Wilson needed to fear, and raises questions again that Wilson is a lying piece of shit who escalated the situation until he shot Brown.
 

samn

Member
If Brown never robbed the store, Wilson tried to arrest him for no reason. And if Wilson tried to arrest him for no reason based on profiling bullshit, then Wilson was in the wrong in the first place.

But it's never the kid defending himself from the cop.

This adds a huge hole in the narrative that Brown was some kind of violent kid Wilson needed to fear, and raises questions again that Wilson is a lying piece of shit who escalated the situation until he shot Brown.

If a police officer arrests you for what might be a mistake or what might be malice, then it's still not a good idea to try to murder the police officer. In fact, you're still responsible if you try to murder that police officer, and the police officer has a duty to prevent you from doing so. Your defence comes later, in the courtroom, not out on the street with a lethal weapon. It is impossible for society to work in any other way.

The implicit accusation seems to be that the police officer tried to provoke Brown into attempting to murder him, which seems like an incredibly dangerous game to play.

The fact that Brown reached into the car for the gun is enough to prove that Brown was a violent man (not kid) that Wilson did need to fear.
 
If a police officer arrests you for what might be a mistake or what might be malice, then it's still not a good idea to try to murder the police officer. In fact, you're still responsible if you try to murder that police officer, and the police officer has a duty to prevent you from doing so. Your defence comes later, in the courtroom, not out on the street with a lethal weapon. It is impossible for society to work in any other way.

The implicit accusation seems to be that the police officer tried to provoke Brown into attempting to murder him, which seems like an incredibly dangerous game to play.

The fact that Brown reached into the car for the gun is enough to prove that Brown was a violent man (not kid) that Wilson did need to fear.
Ahh, here we go again. You have no idea what happened. Isn't it great that the one person with an opposing narrative is dead and can't provide it? Isn't it grand, how great your life is?

In my opinion, if I believe that the police is my enemy, and this belief is reinforced by police behavior, and if I believe that my life is in danger, I will defend myself from the police by killing them.
 
If a police officer arrests you for what might be a mistake or what might be malice, then it's still not a good idea to try to murder the police officer. In fact, you're still responsible if you try to murder that police officer, and the police officer has a duty to prevent you from doing so. Your defence comes later, in the courtroom, not out on the street with a lethal weapon. It is impossible for society to work in any other way.

The implicit accusation seems to be that the police officer tried to provoke Brown into attempting to murder him, which seems like an incredibly dangerous game to play.

The fact that Brown reached into the car for the gun is enough to prove that Brown was a violent man (not kid) that Wilson did need to fear.

Trying to murder? What the FUCK are you even talking about?

The problem with excluding the first tape is that they tried to use the second tape out of context as evidence of his character and state of mind. The fix was in, as it always is when these clowns investigate their own. And that tape should have certainly been relevant to the grand jury, but I'm not sure it was shown to them either.
 
"Better find some better ones" like the 12 year old that got shot and killed? The special education health advisor that was shot while trying to calm an autistic patient? The man who sat on the curb with his hands up?

Insurmountable evidence that the police lied and were not being level headed, but we should trust that the officers version of events that coincidentally absolve him of legal culpability are iron clad?

The man has had his name dragged and slandered because of the color of his skin while his murderer is still a cop. Not just free. He's still a police officer.

What ridiculousness is this to imply that Brown was trying to murder him?
 

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
Shall I take a trip through earlier Mike Brown threads to see who was self-righteous in their vindication of Brown's deserving of death due to the robbery narrative, or should I just shrug my shoulders at this revelation and keep it moving?

Depends...how mad do you want to get?
 

samn

Member
Trying to murder? What the FUCK are you even talking about?

The problem with excluding the first tape is that they tried to use the second tape out of context as a evidence of his character. The fix was in. And that tape should have certainly been relevant to the grand jury, but I'm not sure it was shown to them either.

Brown attempted to seize a police officer's firearm.

Wilson didn't see the tape - he was told over a dispatch radio that a robbery had taken place.

Ahh, here we go again. You have no idea what happened. Isn't it great that the one person with an opposing narrative is dead and can't provide it? Isn't it grand, how great your life is?

In my opinion, if I believe that the police is my enemy, and this belief is reinforced by police behavior, and if I believe that my life is in danger, I will defend myself from the police by killing them.

By this strange logic, any attempt by a black person under arrest (either legitimate, mistaken or malicious) to murder a police officer is reasonable, and any attempt by the police officer to defend themselves against this is murder.
 
Brown attempted to seize a police officer's firearm.

Wilson didn't see the tape - he was told over a dispatch radio that a robbery had taken place.

Interesting that you take one account at face value and go out of your way to discredit any other. And what in the hell is the second part of your post addressing from mine?
 

samn

Member
Interesting that you take one account at face value and go out of your way to discredit any other. And what in the hell is the second part of your post addressing from mine?

Is there a credible account that Brown did not attempt to seize the firearm?

I was addressing the other guy who seemed to imply Wilson concocted the notion of the robbery.

Quote:

Wilson and other witnesses stated that Brown then reached into the SUV through the open driver's window and punched and grabbed Wilson. This is corroborated by bruising on Wilson's jaw and scratches on his neck, the presence of Brown's DNA on Wilson's collar, shirt, and pants, and Wilson's DNA on Brown's palm. While there are other individuals who stated that Wilson reached out of the SUV and grabbed Brown by the neck, prosecutors could not credit their accounts because they were inconsistent with physical and forensic evidence, as detailed throughout this report.

https://www.justice.gov/sites/defau...doj_report_on_shooting_of_michael_brown_1.pdf
 
We have proof here that the police lied and withheld information about the case and yet we're just going to take Wilson's account as gospel now huh?

The more things change and all that.
 
Trying to murder? What the FUCK are you even talking about?

The problem with excluding the first tape is that they tried to use the second tape out of context as evidence of his character and state of mind. The fix was in, as it always is when these clowns investigate their own. And that tape should have certainly been relevant to the grand jury, but I'm not sure it was shown to them either.

Ignore that poster arguing with that person would be like basing your head against the wall considering the poster has actively defended white nationalists in their post history.
 
Certainly puts a wrinkle to the tired argument "we should wait for more facts" when those are behind withheld by the same organisations being accused of wrongdoing.
 

Got

Banned
Shall I take a trip through earlier Mike Brown threads to see who was self-righteous in their vindication of Brown's deserving of death due to the robbery narrative, or should I just shrug my shoulders at this revelation and keep it moving?

No need. That filth is already in this thread.
 

samn

Member
We have proof here that the police lied and withheld information about the case and yet we're just going to take Wilson's account as gospel now huh?

The more things change and all that.

Not just his account, but the accounts of witnesses and physical evidence.

Why does the account that he tried to seize the firearm have any credibility?

Other witnesses, and physical evidence referred to in the DoJ report.

More from the report:

Wilson told prosecutors and investigators that he responded to Brown reaching into the SUV and punching him by withdrawing his gun because he could not access less lethal weapons while seated inside the SUV. Brown then grabbed the weapon and struggled with Wilson to gain control of it. Wilson fired, striking Brown in the hand. Autopsy results and bullet trajectory, skin from Brown's palm on the outside of the SUV door as well as Brown's DNA on the inside of the driver's door corroborate Wilson's account that during the struggle, Brown used his right hand to grab and attempt to control Wilson's gun. According to three autopsies, Brown sustained a close range gunshot wound to the fleshy portion of his right hand at the base of his right thumb. Soot from the muzzle of the gun found embedded in the tissue of this wound coupled with indicia of thermal change from the heat of the muzzle indicate that Brown's hand was within inches of the muzzle of Wilson's gun when it was fired. The location of the recovered bullet in the side panel of the driver's door, just above Wilson's lap, also corroborates Wilson's account of the struggle over the gun and when the gun was fired, as do witness accounts that Wilson fired at least one shot from inside the SUV.

Perhaps this is a vast conspiracy of planted evidence and paid-off witnesses, but you'll need evidence of that before you convict the police officer of murder.
 
Is there a credible account that Brown did not attempt to seize the firearm?

I was addressing the other guy who seemed to imply Wilson concocted the notion of the robbery.

Quote:



https://www.justice.gov/sites/defau...doj_report_on_shooting_of_michael_brown_1.pdf

You're taking a lot of things from my post and twisting them pretty hard.

Things you're saying I said that I didn't say:

Wilson tried to get Brown to murder him.
Wilson made up the robbery.

What I am saying:

Wilson escalated the situation, not to get Brown to murder him, but because cops all too often do and hold their own power as absolute.
Wilson profiled Brown because he was black and had cigarillos, when Brown was not a robber.

Some impressive post-twisting bullshit you have going on.

Didn't the DOJ report say other witnesses said that too?

If someone has a gun out, you better believe I'm gonna touch that gun to try to get it away from me. All this proves, though, is that people don't really know what happened there, and have made a lot of assumptions based on shit like this alleged robbery, which never happened.
 
Not just his account, but the accounts of witnesses and physical evidence.
And yet all the witnesses that provided any other accounting of the incident were near immediately labeled non credible by a justice department we are now just discovering here lied and misrepresented the entire incident for the grand jury.

So what makes them deserve credence.
 

samn

Member
You're taking a lot of things from my post and twisting them pretty hard.

Things you're saying I said that I didn't say:

Wilson tried to get Brown to murder him.
Wilson made up the robbery.

What I am saying:

Wilson escalated the situation, not to get Brown to murder him, but because cops all too often do and hold their own power as absolute.
Wilson profiled Brown because he was black and had cigarillos, when Brown was not a robber.

Some impressive post-twisting bullshit you have going on.

You can define any arrest, correct, mistaken or malicious, as 'escalating the situation'. And 'escalating the situation' does not prevent a police officer from lawfully acting in self defence, nor does it make what seemed to be an attempt at murder of a police officer a reasonable course of action that could be expected to end in anything but the suspect's death.

Did he 'profile' Brown, or did he see someone in the vicinity of a reported robbery, matching the description, carrying the goods reported to be stolen, and then place that person under arrest? You could make a better argument that this was a random stab in the dark (or racial discrimination against cigarillo users) if it didn't turn out to be exactly the person described on the dispatch radio.
 

samn

Member
And yet all the witnesses that provided any other accounting of the incident were near immediately labeled non credible by a justice department we are now just discovering here lied and misrepresented the entire incident for the grand jury.

So what makes them deserve credence.

Did you read the article? The DoJ are not mentioned.
 

samn

Member
Did you read what what Frozenprince even said? He isn't referencing the article.

Yes he is. He said 'we are now just discovering here', referring to the article in the OP. If he has any other evidence of a DoJ coverup I would love to see it.
 
Yes he is. He said 'we are now just discovering here', referring to the article in the OP. If he has any other evidence of a DoJ coverup I would love to see it.

Jesus fucking Christ. He's saying that the new information paints the way the Justice department had handled other witnesses, by discounting any witness statement that contradicted the officer's testimony and labeling them as "unreliable."
 

Ploid 3.0

Member
Even if he did rob the place it wouldn't warrant killing him.

They were happy to bring up that he possibly robbed the store but willfully ignored evidence that he probably didn't rob it? All to give a cop that apparently didn't even know of the store (from what I remember) cause to fear and shoot someone.
 
It's an inference that because of the new information painting the incident in a new light that their attempts at the charge in the grand jury are not credible because, as we can infer from this, this narrative and bias was withheld.
 

samn

Member
Jesus fucking Christ. He's saying that the new information paints the way the Justice department had handled other witnesses, by discounting any witness statement that contradicted the officer's testimony and labeling them as "unreliable."

I am struggling to understand your point, but I think you (and the other poster) may be confused about the difference between the Ferguson PD and the St Louis County PD, and the Department of Justice. I have not seen any serious suggestion that the DoJ were involved in a cover up. Their analysis of the credibility of witnesses would have been independent of the local PD.

Swearing won't get us anywhere.

Even if he did rob the place it wouldn't warrant killing him.

They were happy to bring up that he possibly robbed the store but willfully ignored evidence that he probably didn't rob it? All to give a cop that apparently didn't even know of the store (from what I remember) cause to fear and shoot someone.

No, it wouldn't warrant killing him, and nobody (I hope) has argued that it would warrant killing him.
 
Where are we trying to get to, samn? Michael Brown is dead and he was killed by a racist cop, because he was black.

I really do not give a shit how you try to justify it, and there is nothing I can say to you, swearing or not that would sway you in any way either. You believe that he was killed because he reached for the officer's weapon.

I believe he was killed because to that officer he was not human. Your comments here are certainly not going to change how I view what happened.
 
I am struggling to understand your point, but I think you (and the other poster) may be confused about the difference between the Ferguson PD and the St Louis County PD, and the Department of Justice. I have not seen any serious suggestion that the DoJ were involved in a cover up. Their analysis of the credibility of witnesses would have been independent of the local PD.

Swearing won't get us anywhere.



No, it wouldn't warrant killing him, and nobody (I hope) has argued that it would warrant killing him.

First off, you obviously didn't comprehend what Frozenprince posted.

Second, yes, you are arguing that his death was justified. You are going along with the self-defense narrative without understanding that this video makes that defence much harder to accept as true.
 

samn

Member
Where are we trying to get to, samn? Michael Brown is dead and he was killed by a racist cop, because he was black.

I really do not give a shit how you try to justify it, and there is nothing I can say to you, swearing or not that would sway you in any way either. You believe that he was killed because he reached for the officer's weapon.

I believe he was killed because to that officer he was not human. Your comments here are certainly not going to change how I view what happened.

Thanks for your contribution. Any views on the details or facts of the case? Anything other than assertions that you seem unwilling to substantiate? You're not giving much to chew on. If you don't think this is a discussion worth having, you're very welcome to leave it alone.

I can think of all sorts of things that may still come to light that would change my mind. I even think BLM has a cause worth championing, I just think it's a shame it was built on this crummy case.

Somehow I knew the only way this would go over a page was if someone argued Brown deserved to get killed...

Who cares about reasoned discussion when you can obliquely sneer at someone without addressing their arguments.

First off, you obviously didn't comprehend what Frozenprince posted.

Second, yes, you are arguing that his death was justified. You are going along with the self-defense narrative without understanding that this video makes that defence much harder to accept as true.

Then help me understand what Frozenprince posted. I'm happy to accept I interpreted his post wrong, if someone will please just tell me where I am going wrong! This isn't helping us get anywhere.

Justification of black death is always an idea that someone will champion, including self professed "liberals".

I agree a lot of idiots arrived at a similar viewpoint to mine. A whole bunch of idiots arrived at yours too. What matters is how you get there.
 
Thanks for your contribution. Any views on the details or facts of the case? Anything other than assertions that you seem unwilling to substantiate? You're not giving much to chew on. If you don't think this is a discussion worth having, you're very welcome to leave it alone.

I can think of all sorts of things that would change my mind. I even think BLM has a cause worth championing, I just think it's a shame it was built on this crummy case.



Who cares about reasoned discussion when you can obliquely sneer at someone without addressing their arguments.



Then help me understand what Frozenprince posted. I'm happy to accept I interpreted his post wrong, if someone will please just tell me where I am going wrong! This isn't helping us get anywhere.



I agree a lot of idiots arrived at a similar viewpoint to mine. A whole bunch of idiots arrived at yours too. What matters is how you get there.

Very fucking simple. He wasn't referencing the article. You inferred he was to discredit him.

Also, so that you actually fucking listen this time:

He was profiled by a cop with a racist history, now Brown is dead. He did not commit a crime, and you are justifying his death by citing the testimony of the officer who did it, whose entire accusation against Brown was shaky in the fucking first place.
 
Thanks for your contribution. Any views on the details or facts of the case? Anything other than assertions that you seem unwilling to substantiate? You're not giving much to chew on. If you don't think this is a discussion worth having, you're very welcome to leave it alone.

I can think of all sorts of things that may still come to light that would change my mind. I even think BLM has a cause worth championing, I just think it's a shame it was built on this crummy case.



Who cares about reasoned discussion when you can obliquely sneer at someone without addressing their arguments.



Then help me understand what Frozenprince posted. I'm happy to accept I interpreted his post wrong, if someone will please just tell me where I am going wrong! This isn't helping us get anywhere.



I agree a lot of idiots arrived at a similar viewpoint to mine. A whole bunch of idiots arrived at yours too. What matters is how you get there.
What's your tag in reference to?
 
The truth of the evidence presented by the autopsies is that, due to so many eyewitness accounts and the account of Wilson, a narrative had to be constructed using the evidence.

I believe the narrative the department and DoJ constructed is wrong and heavily based on Wilson's own testimony. This video casts massive doubt on the department and Wilson, not to mention all the lying and bullshit and changing stories they did during the investigation.

Eyewitnesses saw a struggle at the car.

The autopsy evidence could mean Brown tried to grab the gun to attack Wilson, or it could mean he tried to get the gun away from him, or he tried to keep the officer from using it, or he never grabbed the gun at all. Brown could have been fighting for his life. I choose to believe based on the lying by the department and the bullshit in Wilson's testimony that Brown was fighting for his life and he was innocent. This video adds weight to that. The narrative that Brown was violent and trying to murder the officer is a narrative built around the evidence, but it's not the truth nor is it the only narrative that can be built with the evidence. As far as I'm concerned, based not only on this video but on the way the police operate in this country, there is no way that Brown was a violent person trying to "murder" Darren Wilson. That's bullshit.
 
Thanks for your contribution. Any views on the details or facts of the case? Anything other than assertions that you seem unwilling to substantiate? You're not giving much to chew on. If you don't think this is a discussion worth having, you're very welcome to leave it alone.

I can think of all sorts of things that may still come to light that would change my mind. I even think BLM has a cause worth championing, I just think it's a shame it was built on this crummy case.



Who cares about reasoned discussion when you can obliquely sneer at someone without addressing their arguments.



Then help me understand what Frozenprince posted. I'm happy to accept I interpreted his post wrong, if someone will please just tell me where I am going wrong! This isn't helping us get anywhere.



I agree a lot of idiots arrived at a similar viewpoint to mine. A whole bunch of idiots arrived at yours too. What matters is how you get there.

You're not the only one making that "argument" just the only one spending this much time on it. I'm not going to waste time humoring it when we have video
 

samn

Member
Very fucking simple. He wasn't referencing the article. You inferred he was to discredit him.

What was he referencing? Can you explain? Any evidence of a DoJ coverup? No? Then we're done here. I've already gone over his post to death at this point, but you ignored pretty much everything I said about it.

Also, so that you actually fucking listen this time:
.

I did listen, I just disagreed with you. You ignored my points of disagreement and are simply repeating your assertions.

He was profiled

He heard a description of a black male in the vicinity of a store carrying cigarillos who had been involved in a robbery. He then attempted to arrest him. This isn't racial profiling. It's following a detailed description to apprehend an individual, with a very high likelihood of this person being that individual. It did turn out this was in fact the individual referred to on the radio. You seem to have a definition of profiling that would seem to rule out the apprehension of a person based on the detailed description of a suspect.

by a cop with a racist history,

A quick Google search couldn't turn up much on this, but in any case, it's not relevant to whether this was a legitimate act of self defense.

now Brown is dead. He did not commit a crime,

He assaulted a police officer, attempted to seize his firearm and then attempted to escape. These are all crimes. No, they should not carry the death penalty, but they do give a police officer a reason to shoot you.

and you are justifying his death by citing the testimony of the officer who did it, whose entire accusation against Brown was shaky in the fucking first place.

I specifically cited the DoJ report, not the local PD reports, and referred to the testimony of witnesses other than the police officer, as well as DNA and other physical evidence. You have ignored all of this.

Also mind your language.
 
Brown attempted to seize a police officer's firearm.

Wilson didn't see the tape - he was told over a dispatch radio that a robbery had taken place.



By this strange logic, any attempt by a black person under arrest (either legitimate, mistaken or malicious) to murder a police officer is reasonable, and any attempt by the police officer to defend themselves against this is murder.

Dude didn't even know about a robbery to begin with.
 
What was he referencing? Can you explain? Any evidence of a DoJ coverup? No? Then we're done here. I've already gone over his post to death at this point, but you ignored pretty much everything I said about it.

.

I did listen, I just disagreed with you. You ignored my points of disagreement and are simply repeating your assertions.



He heard a description of a black male in the vicinity of a store carrying cigarillos who had been involved in a robbery. He then attempted to arrest him. This isn't racial profiling. It's following a detailed description to apprehend an individual, with a very high likelihood of this person being that individual. It did turn out this was in fact the individual referred to on the radio. You seem to have a definition of profiling that would seem to rule out the apprehension of a person based on the detailed description of a suspect.



A quick Google search couldn't turn up much on this, but in any case, it's not relevant to whether this was a legitimate act of self defense.



He assaulted a police officer, attempted to seize his firearm and then attempted to escape. These are all crimes. No, they should not carry the death penalty, but they do give a police officer a reason to shoot you.



I specifically cited the DoJ report, not the local PD reports, and referred to the testimony of witnesses other than the police officer, as well as DNA and other physical evidence. You have ignored all of this.

Also mind your language.
What evidence was there of Brown reaching into the cop car?

Regardless, it's quite appropriate.
It's the only way I can read it now.

"Is this dude actually as much of a racist and hatemonger?"

*reads post*

"yuuuuuup"
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
What evidence was there of Brown reaching into the cop car?


It's the only way I can read it now.

"Is this dude actually as much of a racist and hatemonger?"

*reads post*

"yuuuuuup"

Wasn't there a bullet that hit the inside of the cop door, which presumably happened during the struggle?

Then the story is that Brown ran like 30 yards away, decided to turn around, and run directly at the cop where he had to be shot numorous times to be stopped, while other witnesses say he stopped, turned, and dropped to his knees in surrender, and was shot then.

The hardest part to believe is him going from being afraid of the the gunshot during the struggle to charging at a cop that clearly had a gun at the ready from such a distance.
 
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