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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Setsuna Mudou

Setsuna Mudou

Member
Neo_game said:
SX has at least 18% more compute or RTX performance over PS5.I do not think there can be any doubt in this. Having said that PS5 might have less bottleneck and better API that is why there is no serious advantage of one over the other.
Click to expand...
yes, 18% more theoretical compute performance

First, that theoretical figure only happens on paper, as unless you're crypto mining, no software will use 100% of those CUs.
Second of all, 18% more compute does not equal 18% more performance in games, which is what I was explaining. It may well perform worse, depending on the game (as we've seen already btw).
 
BigLee74

BigLee74

Member
Setsuna Mudou said:
yes, 18% more theoretical compute performance

First, that theoretical figure only happens on paper, as unless you're crypto mining, no software will use 100% of those CUs.
Second of all, 18% more compute does not equal 18% more performance in games, which is what I was explaining. It may well perform worse, depending on the game (as we've seen already btw).
Click to expand...

Wow. You speak like only MS has a theoretical peak. Underscores and everything, huh? 😉
 
J

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Neo_game said:
SX has at least 18% more compute or RTX performance over PS5.I do not think there can be any doubt in this. Having said that PS5 might have less bottleneck and better API that is why there is no serious advantage of one over the other.
Click to expand...

Neo_game said:
Clockspeed do matter but still SX has 18% more due to more CU. Microsoft in Hot chips presentation stated that SX can do 380 billion ray intersection per sec. 4*52*1.825ghz = 379.6. So the PS5 should be 4*36*2.23ghz = 321.12. Which is 18% less.
Click to expand...
Can it be like this:

8 GB of ram (4+4) all the same specs for each stick vs 12 GB ram (6+6) with different specs for each stick (CAS, latency, timings, etc. Maybe different speeds)

In the end which ram will perform better, be better? The 8GB or the 12GB? What gonna be better, more ram or balanced ram? I have no idea, just wanna know if this can be a good way to look at it.

BigLee74 said:
Wow. You speak like only MS has a theoretical peak. Underscores and everything, huh? 😉
Click to expand...

If you mean PS5 tf, this is where the variable clocks come into play. IIRC, the PS5 can get to its theoretical peak easier. The PS5 cu's are easier to make work efficiently because of the gpu design.

If you mean the PS5 SD, I/O...We have already seen in first party games what can happen when its used more effectively.

We have to always remember both consoles have a different design philosophy.
 
Locuza

Locuza

Member
I made a die shot analysis video for the Xbox Series X and S chips, though the first part is just limited to the I/O:


It may be interesting for some, especially since all sources are in the description box and I lay down how you can figure out different hardware blocks.
So to some extend it's like a tutorial and you can learn how to analyse die shots yourself.
However you need some background knowledge and not everything will be easy to follow if you are just a casual hardware enthusiast.


That said some may not like to watch videos or can't, so here is a small summary:

1.) When companies share the die sizes it's not always clear what they mean by that.
Sometimes they mean the whole chip size, sometimes just the chip design itself, without the scribe line.
In some cases the official die size doesn't fit either way, so the first thing you should do, when you want to measure structure sizes, is to check on the die sizes yourself.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboyyjr3.png

2.) First a short CPU analysis of the Zen2 Matisse (CPU) and Renoir (APU) die shots.
They both share the same CPU core sizes of 2.83mm² and the structures look basically identical, so AMD uses the same design libraries and physical implementation.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbok9jvo.png

3.) AMD only changed the L3$ design, reducing the capacity from 16MiB (CPU) to 4MiB (APU).The CCX size goes down from 31.37mm² to 20.21mm².
A Renoir CCX is 11.16mm² smaller.
You could get 3x 4MB CCXes (3x 20.21mm = 60.63mm²) for the price of 2x 16MB CCXes (2x 31.37mm² = 62.74mm²).
It's more than obvious why there is a large motivation in cutting down the L3$ if area is important.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo5ojye.png

4.) In the past I made a hypothetical CCX mockup with 8MB per CCX, resulting in ~24.23mm².
It was an interesting question what Renoir, the Xbox Series and PS5 would use (was still open back then).
Now it's known that Renoir, Xbox Series and PS5 all use 4MB for the L3$ per CCX. https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeckzt.png

5.) The assumption now is of course that the Xbox Series and PS5 use the same Renoir design and implementation (which is not true for the PS5 as we know).
Comparing the Xbox Series CCXes to AMD's Zen2 CCXes shows basically the same picture, at least the size should be identical.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboh9j0c.pnghttps://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xborkk9d.png

Because of the low resolution it's hard to tell if some digital logic is not laid down differently, on the FPU and L3$ side there appear to be some differences but I wouldn't make the call right now.

6.) The core size on the Xbox Series should be identical with 2.83mm², meaning the die shot MS shared at Hot Chips is 372.16mm², larger than the final chips.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo07jqp.png

7.) Thanks to the XSX teardown on ifixit we can say that the final chips are ~360mm² in size, as MS officially stated with 360.45mm².
The chip design itself is ~354.71mm² large on XSX and 192.18mm² on the XSS.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew2ziieWgAsA8Z8?format=jpg&name=large
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeakmw.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbonrjsg.png

8.) For time reasons I just managed to include the I/O sections, where MS is stating 5 I/O blocks, 3 on the left and two on the right side.
We obviously want to know what they are for.
Looking at them makes it clear that we have two different types of I/O.
Based on official information we only have 3 major I/O connections; Display, 8x PCIe4 Lanes and GDDR6 links.
2x PCIe4 lanes are used for the internal and 2x for the external SSD.
The Southbridge is a dedicated chip which is also attached via the PCIe standard and contains USB3 interfaces, a system controller, SPI, etc.

So one I/O type should be for display and the other for PCIe.
The left I/O blocks don't fit to 4 display links or 8 PCIe4 lanes.
But the right I/O blocks have 4 yellow stripes and if those are PCIe Lanes that would fit perfectly to 8 PCIe4 Lanes.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboz6khw.png

9.) We can check that simple assumption thanks to Fritzchens Fritz, who has die shots of Navi10 and Navi14 on his flickr account.
Comparing the I/O sections and other analog elements shows basically no differences, outside of two larger blocks colored in red and cyan.
N10 has 6 red blocks, N14 just 5.
N10 has 4 cyan blocks, N14 just 2.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboickrc.png

10.) The cyan blocks look identical to the right I/O blocks on the Xbox Series X and they share the exact same size.
There is only one major I/O specification which could come into question here.
N10 has 16x PCIe4 lanes, while N14 only has 8x PCIe4 Lanes.
We can conclude that the cyan blocks are PHYs for PCIe4 and that each yellow stripe is a single lane:
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbomrjd7.png

11.) Finding the display specifications per GPU is not so easy, I think you really have to look at the open source drivers to find the information about how many display controllers are present per GPU.
N10 has 6, N14 5, which fits to the red blocks which look very similar to the left I/O blocks on Xbox Series.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo9sjo5.png

12.) Why the Xbox Series X has 3 of those (display) I/O PHYs is still a mystery to me, the Xbox Series S just has 1.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew25RAQWQAAtdwX?format=jpg&name=large

13.) One could also look at the traces on the PCB to figure out the I/O situation but for a layperson this is not always presenting a clear picture.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeckfu.png

14.) Finally the GDDR6 I/O, which MS officially annotated but they would have been easy to make out anyway.
DRAM PHYs are usually the largest interfaces on a chip and in most cases there are no other options which fit to the memory specifications.
For example the Xbox Series X has a 320-Bit wide interface and each GDDR6 memory chip is connected via 32-Bits, meaning that the PHY needs to fit to the number 10 in some way.
Either we should see 5 larger blocks, 10 or 20 but not something which is not part of that number series.
On the Xbox Series X we see exactly 10 larger I/O PHYs around the chip edges.

In addition I made just a visual representation how the 10GB of "GPU Optimal Memory" should be in principle mapped over the full 320-Bit Interface and how the 6GB "Standard Memory" is addressed over 192-Bits/6 memory chips.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbodekll.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboy7jki.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo83kyk.png

------

In the end we should roughly come up with this picture (yellow TMU blocks are part of the WGPs and the green/cyan blocks on the left and right side from the Parameter Cache should relate to the Primitive Units and Rasterizer):
1600-xboxldjpu.jpg


Full res and with other information here:


One interesting point may relate to the CCXes:
Ew3VvHxWgAAik-p


The PS5 CPU has some cut downs on the FPU side (at least the FP register file was reduced), making the CCX shorter than on the Xbox Series and AMD's Zen2 CPUs.

____

Any feedback, questions or answers are welcomed. :)
 
Last edited:
TheRedRiders

TheRedRiders

Member
Locuza said:
I made a die shot analysis video for the Xbox Series X and S chips though the first part is just limited to the I/O:


It may be interesting for some, especially since all sources are in the description box and I lay down how you can figure out different hardware blocks.
So to some extend it's like a tutorial and you can learn how to analyse die shots yourself.
However you need some background knowledge and not everything will be easy to follow if you are just a casual hardware enthusiast.

That said some may not like to watch videos or can't, so here is a small summary:
1.) When companies share the die sizes it's not always clear what they mean by that.
Sometimes they mean the whole chip size, sometimes just the chip design itself, without the scribe line.
In some cases the official die size doesn't fit either way, so the first thing you should do, when you want to measure structure sizes, is to check on the die sizes yourself.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboyyjr3.png

2.) First a short CPU analysis of the Zen2 Matisse (CPU) and Renoir (APU) die shots.
They both share the same CPU core sizes of 2.83mm² and the structures look basically identical, so AMD uses the same design libraries and physical implementation.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbok9jvo.png

3.) AMD only changed the L3$ design, reducing the capacity from 16MiB (CPU) to 4MiB (APU).The CCX size goes down from 31.37mm² to 20.21mm².
A Renoir CCX is 11.16mm² smaller.
You could get 3x 4MB CCXes (3x 20.21mm = 60.63mm²) for the price of 2x 16MB CCXes (2x 31.37mm² = 62.74mm²).
It's more than obvious why there is a large motivation in cutting down the L3$ if area is important.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo5ojye.png

4.) In the past I made a hypothetical CCX mockup with 8MB per CCX, resulting in ~24.23mm².
It was an interesting question what Renoir, the Xbox Series and PS5 would use (was still open back then).
Now it's known that Renoir, Xbox Series and PS5 all use 4MB for the L3$ per CCX. https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeckzt.png

5.) The assumption now is of course that the Xbox Series and PS5 use the same Renoir design and implementation (which is not true for the PS5 as we know).
Comparing the Xbox Series CCXes to AMD's Zen2 CCXes shows basically the same picture, at least the size should be identical.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboh9j0c.pnghttps://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xborkk9d.png

Because of the low resolution it's hard to tell if some digital logic is not laid down differently, on the FPU and L3$ side there appear to be some differences but I wouldn't make the call right now.

6.) The core size on the Xbox Series should be identical with 2.83mm², meaning the die shot MS shared at Hot Chips is 372.16mm², larger than the final chips.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo07jqp.png

7.) Thanks to the XSX teardown on ifixit we can say that the final chips are ~360mm² in size, as MS officially stated with 360.45mm².
The chip design itself is ~354.71mm² large on XSX and 192.18mm² on the XSS.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew2ziieWgAsA8Z8?format=jpg&name=large
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeakmw.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbonrjsg.png

8.) For time reasons I just managed to include the I/O sections, where MS is stating 5 I/O blocks, 3 on the left and two on the right side.
We obviously want to know what they are for.
Looking at them makes it clear that we have two different types of I/O.
Based on official information we only have 3 major I/O connections; Display, 8x PCIe4 Lanes and GDDR6 links.
2x PCIe4 lanes are used for the internal and 2x for the external SSD.
The Southbridge is a dedicated chip which is also attached via the PCIe standard and contains USB3 interfaces, a system controller, SPI, etc.

So one I/O type should be for display and the other for PCIe.
The left I/O blocks don't fit to 4 display links or 8 PCIe4 lanes.
But the right I/O blocks have 4 yellow stripes and if those are PCIe Lanes that would fit perfectly to 8 PCIe4 Lanes.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboz6khw.png

9.) We can check that simple assumption thanks to Fritzchens Fritz, who has die shots of Navi10 and Navi14 on his flickr account.
Comparing the I/O sections and other analog elements shows basically no differences, outside of two larger blocks colored in red and cyan.
N10 has 6 red blocks, N14 just 5.
N10 has 4 cyan blocks, N14 just 2.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboickrc.png

10.) The cyan blocks look identical to the right I/O blocks on the Xbox Series X and they share the exact same size.
There is only one major I/O specification which could come into question here.
N10 has 16x PCIe4 lanes, while N14 only has 8x PCIe4 Lanes.
We can conclude that the cyan blocks are PHYs for PCIe4 and that each yellow stripe is a single lane:
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbomrjd7.png

11.) Finding the display specifications per GPU is not so easy, I think you really have to look at the open source drivers to find the information about how many display controllers are present per GPU.
N10 has 6, N14 5, which fits to the red blocks which look very similar to the left I/O blocks on Xbox Series.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo9sjo5.png

12.) Why the Xbox Series X has 3 of those (display) I/O PHYs is still a mystery to me, the Xbox Series S just has 1.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew25RAQWQAAtdwX?format=jpg&name=large

13.) One could also look at the traces on the PCB to figure out the I/O situation but for a layperson this is not always presenting a clear picture.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeckfu.png

14.) Finally the GDDR6 I/O, which MS officially annotated but they would have been easy to make out anyway.
DRAM PHYs are usually the largest interfaces on a chip and in most cases there are no other options which fit to the memory specifications.
For example the Xbox Series X has a 320-Bit wide interface and each GDDR6 memory chip is connected via 32-Bits, meaning that the PHY needs to fit to the number 10 in some way.
Either we should see 5 larger blocks, 10 or 20 but not something which is not part of that number series.
On the Xbox Series X we see exactly 10 larger I/O PHYs around the chip edges.

In addition I made just a visual representation how the 10GB of "GPU Optimal Memory" should be in principle mapped over the full 320-Bit Interface and how the 6GB "Standard Memory" is addressed over 192-Bits/6 memory chips.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbodekll.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboy7jki.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo83kyk.png

------

In the end we should roughly come up with this picture (yellow TMU blocks are part of the WGPs and the green/cyan blocks on the left and right side from the Parameter Cache should relate to the Primitive Units and Rasterizer):
1600-xboxldjpu.jpg


Full res and with other information here:


One interesting point may relate to the CCXes:
Ew3VvHxWgAAik-p


The PS5 CPU has some cut downs on the FPU side (at least the FP register file was reduced), making the CCX shorter than on the Xbox Series and AMD's Zen2 CPUs.
Click to expand...

 
LiquidRex

LiquidRex

Member
abel empire said:
It's not the bandwidth that matters most and remember Xbox one had sram so it minimised the bandwidth problem and a faster cpu, the reason games looked similar on PS4 and xbone was because they both had 8gb ram, the reason PS3 an for x360 games looked similar was because they both had 512mb ram. Ram is always king in graphics it's everything you first have to fit whatever your rendering all your data sets in your memory budgets then everything else can be scalled down.

But the series s has 10gb while ps5/x have 16gb this completely kills developers, you can go watch every documentary or talk of game developers and memory is all they talk about infact it's the culprit in 90 percent of the games it's the reason cyberpunk is a Mess on lastgen consoles it's why theres stutters, missing assets there wasn't enough memory same thing that killed PS3 and x360 in their last days pcs had already been having 2gb gpus and games needed more memory.

Consoles have fixed budgets of memory unlike pcs you can have a 6gb gpu and 16gb system ram so when the game runs out of gpu ram it starts using system ram and because system ram is slower so you'll just get popin and lower fps but on console it's different you have fixed 10gb on series s about 7.5gb only is usable for games and you have no escape that's your budget and to make a game that was natively made for ps5/x to run properly on series s will take a lot of time so what devs do in the end is make it for the weaker console series s and then easily port to ps5/x but this will make the game suffer because you could have made it more spectacular if you natively made it to run on more memory on ps5 and x so another way is to forget about series s just make a game for ps5/x then do a cheap mess on series s. And that's what I think devs will do in the end.
Click to expand...
But how much RAM is available for Devs on PS5, we still don't know officially and I wonder if we ever will.
 
M1chl

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Locuza said:
I made a die shot analysis video for the Xbox Series X and S chips, though the first part is just limited to the I/O:


It may be interesting for some, especially since all sources are in the description box and I lay down how you can figure out different hardware blocks.
So to some extend it's like a tutorial and you can learn how to analyse die shots yourself.
However you need some background knowledge and not everything will be easy to follow if you are just a casual hardware enthusiast.


That said some may not like to watch videos or can't, so here is a small summary:

1.) When companies share the die sizes it's not always clear what they mean by that.
Sometimes they mean the whole chip size, sometimes just the chip design itself, without the scribe line.
In some cases the official die size doesn't fit either way, so the first thing you should do, when you want to measure structure sizes, is to check on the die sizes yourself.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboyyjr3.png

2.) First a short CPU analysis of the Zen2 Matisse (CPU) and Renoir (APU) die shots.
They both share the same CPU core sizes of 2.83mm² and the structures look basically identical, so AMD uses the same design libraries and physical implementation.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbok9jvo.png

3.) AMD only changed the L3$ design, reducing the capacity from 16MiB (CPU) to 4MiB (APU).The CCX size goes down from 31.37mm² to 20.21mm².
A Renoir CCX is 11.16mm² smaller.
You could get 3x 4MB CCXes (3x 20.21mm = 60.63mm²) for the price of 2x 16MB CCXes (2x 31.37mm² = 62.74mm²).
It's more than obvious why there is a large motivation in cutting down the L3$ if area is important.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo5ojye.png

4.) In the past I made a hypothetical CCX mockup with 8MB per CCX, resulting in ~24.23mm².
It was an interesting question what Renoir, the Xbox Series and PS5 would use (was still open back then).
Now it's known that Renoir, Xbox Series and PS5 all use 4MB for the L3$ per CCX. https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeckzt.png

5.) The assumption now is of course that the Xbox Series and PS5 use the same Renoir design and implementation (which is not true for the PS5 as we know).
Comparing the Xbox Series CCXes to AMD's Zen2 CCXes shows basically the same picture, at least the size should be identical.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboh9j0c.pnghttps://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xborkk9d.png

Because of the low resolution it's hard to tell if some digital logic is not laid down differently, on the FPU and L3$ side there appear to be some differences but I wouldn't make the call right now.

6.) The core size on the Xbox Series should be identical with 2.83mm², meaning the die shot MS shared at Hot Chips is 372.16mm², larger than the final chips.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo07jqp.png

7.) Thanks to the XSX teardown on ifixit we can say that the final chips are ~360mm² in size, as MS officially stated with 360.45mm².
The chip design itself is ~354.71mm² large on XSX and 192.18mm² on the XSS.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew2ziieWgAsA8Z8?format=jpg&name=large
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeakmw.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbonrjsg.png

8.) For time reasons I just managed to include the I/O sections, where MS is stating 5 I/O blocks, 3 on the left and two on the right side.
We obviously want to know what they are for.
Looking at them makes it clear that we have two different types of I/O.
Based on official information we only have 3 major I/O connections; Display, 8x PCIe4 Lanes and GDDR6 links.
2x PCIe4 lanes are used for the internal and 2x for the external SSD.
The Southbridge is a dedicated chip which is also attached via the PCIe standard and contains USB3 interfaces, a system controller, SPI, etc.

So one I/O type should be for display and the other for PCIe.
The left I/O blocks don't fit to 4 display links or 8 PCIe4 lanes.
But the right I/O blocks have 4 yellow stripes and if those are PCIe Lanes that would fit perfectly to 8 PCIe4 Lanes.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboz6khw.png

9.) We can check that simple assumption thanks to Fritzchens Fritz, who has die shots of Navi10 and Navi14 on his flickr account.
Comparing the I/O sections and other analog elements shows basically no differences, outside of two larger blocks colored in red and cyan.
N10 has 6 red blocks, N14 just 5.
N10 has 4 cyan blocks, N14 just 2.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboickrc.png

10.) The cyan blocks look identical to the right I/O blocks on the Xbox Series X and they share the exact same size.
There is only one major I/O specification which could come into question here.
N10 has 16x PCIe4 lanes, while N14 only has 8x PCIe4 Lanes.
We can conclude that the cyan blocks are PHYs for PCIe4 and that each yellow stripe is a single lane:
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbomrjd7.png

11.) Finding the display specifications per GPU is not so easy, I think you really have to look at the open source drivers to find the information about how many display controllers are present per GPU.
N10 has 6, N14 5, which fits to the red blocks which look very similar to the left I/O blocks on Xbox Series.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo9sjo5.png

12.) Why the Xbox Series X has 3 of those (display) I/O PHYs is still a mystery to me, the Xbox Series S just has 1.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew25RAQWQAAtdwX?format=jpg&name=large

13.) One could also look at the traces on the PCB to figure out the I/O situation but for a layperson this is not always presenting a clear picture.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeckfu.png

14.) Finally the GDDR6 I/O, which MS officially annotated but they would have been easy to make out anyway.
DRAM PHYs are usually the largest interfaces on a chip and in most cases there are no other options which fit to the memory specifications.
For example the Xbox Series X has a 320-Bit wide interface and each GDDR6 memory chip is connected via 32-Bits, meaning that the PHY needs to fit to the number 10 in some way.
Either we should see 5 larger blocks, 10 or 20 but not something which is not part of that number series.
On the Xbox Series X we see exactly 10 larger I/O PHYs around the chip edges.

In addition I made just a visual representation how the 10GB of "GPU Optimal Memory" should be in principle mapped over the full 320-Bit Interface and how the 6GB "Standard Memory" is addressed over 192-Bits/6 memory chips.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbodekll.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboy7jki.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo83kyk.png

------

In the end we should roughly come up with this picture (yellow TMU blocks are part of the WGPs and the green/cyan blocks on the left and right side from the Parameter Cache should relate to the Primitive Units and Rasterizer):
1600-xboxldjpu.jpg


Full res and with other information here:


One interesting point may relate to the CCXes:
Ew3VvHxWgAAik-p


The PS5 CPU has some cut downs on the FPU side (at least the FP register file was reduced), making the CCX shorter than on the Xbox Series and AMD's Zen2 CPUs.

____

Any feedback, questions or answers are welcomed. :)
Click to expand...

Make a thread about it, it's shame to do such great work and let it be here.
 
LiquidRex

LiquidRex

Member
Locuza said:
I made a die shot analysis video for the Xbox Series X and S chips, though the first part is just limited to the I/O:


It may be interesting for some, especially since all sources are in the description box and I lay down how you can figure out different hardware blocks.
So to some extend it's like a tutorial and you can learn how to analyse die shots yourself.
However you need some background knowledge and not everything will be easy to follow if you are just a casual hardware enthusiast.


That said some may not like to watch videos or can't, so here is a small summary:

1.) When companies share the die sizes it's not always clear what they mean by that.
Sometimes they mean the whole chip size, sometimes just the chip design itself, without the scribe line.
In some cases the official die size doesn't fit either way, so the first thing you should do, when you want to measure structure sizes, is to check on the die sizes yourself.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboyyjr3.png

2.) First a short CPU analysis of the Zen2 Matisse (CPU) and Renoir (APU) die shots.
They both share the same CPU core sizes of 2.83mm² and the structures look basically identical, so AMD uses the same design libraries and physical implementation.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbok9jvo.png

3.) AMD only changed the L3$ design, reducing the capacity from 16MiB (CPU) to 4MiB (APU).The CCX size goes down from 31.37mm² to 20.21mm².
A Renoir CCX is 11.16mm² smaller.
You could get 3x 4MB CCXes (3x 20.21mm = 60.63mm²) for the price of 2x 16MB CCXes (2x 31.37mm² = 62.74mm²).
It's more than obvious why there is a large motivation in cutting down the L3$ if area is important.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo5ojye.png

4.) In the past I made a hypothetical CCX mockup with 8MB per CCX, resulting in ~24.23mm².
It was an interesting question what Renoir, the Xbox Series and PS5 would use (was still open back then).
Now it's known that Renoir, Xbox Series and PS5 all use 4MB for the L3$ per CCX. https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeckzt.png

5.) The assumption now is of course that the Xbox Series and PS5 use the same Renoir design and implementation (which is not true for the PS5 as we know).
Comparing the Xbox Series CCXes to AMD's Zen2 CCXes shows basically the same picture, at least the size should be identical.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboh9j0c.pnghttps://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xborkk9d.png

Because of the low resolution it's hard to tell if some digital logic is not laid down differently, on the FPU and L3$ side there appear to be some differences but I wouldn't make the call right now.

6.) The core size on the Xbox Series should be identical with 2.83mm², meaning the die shot MS shared at Hot Chips is 372.16mm², larger than the final chips.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo07jqp.png

7.) Thanks to the XSX teardown on ifixit we can say that the final chips are ~360mm² in size, as MS officially stated with 360.45mm².
The chip design itself is ~354.71mm² large on XSX and 192.18mm² on the XSS.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew2ziieWgAsA8Z8?format=jpg&name=large
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeakmw.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbonrjsg.png

8.) For time reasons I just managed to include the I/O sections, where MS is stating 5 I/O blocks, 3 on the left and two on the right side.
We obviously want to know what they are for.
Looking at them makes it clear that we have two different types of I/O.
Based on official information we only have 3 major I/O connections; Display, 8x PCIe4 Lanes and GDDR6 links.
2x PCIe4 lanes are used for the internal and 2x for the external SSD.
The Southbridge is a dedicated chip which is also attached via the PCIe standard and contains USB3 interfaces, a system controller, SPI, etc.

So one I/O type should be for display and the other for PCIe.
The left I/O blocks don't fit to 4 display links or 8 PCIe4 lanes.
But the right I/O blocks have 4 yellow stripes and if those are PCIe Lanes that would fit perfectly to 8 PCIe4 Lanes.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboz6khw.png

9.) We can check that simple assumption thanks to Fritzchens Fritz, who has die shots of Navi10 and Navi14 on his flickr account.
Comparing the I/O sections and other analog elements shows basically no differences, outside of two larger blocks colored in red and cyan.
N10 has 6 red blocks, N14 just 5.
N10 has 4 cyan blocks, N14 just 2.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboickrc.png

10.) The cyan blocks look identical to the right I/O blocks on the Xbox Series X and they share the exact same size.
There is only one major I/O specification which could come into question here.
N10 has 16x PCIe4 lanes, while N14 only has 8x PCIe4 Lanes.
We can conclude that the cyan blocks are PHYs for PCIe4 and that each yellow stripe is a single lane:
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbomrjd7.png

11.) Finding the display specifications per GPU is not so easy, I think you really have to look at the open source drivers to find the information about how many display controllers are present per GPU.
N10 has 6, N14 5, which fits to the red blocks which look very similar to the left I/O blocks on Xbox Series.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo9sjo5.png

12.) Why the Xbox Series X has 3 of those (display) I/O PHYs is still a mystery to me, the Xbox Series S just has 1.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ew25RAQWQAAtdwX?format=jpg&name=large

13.) One could also look at the traces on the PCB to figure out the I/O situation but for a layperson this is not always presenting a clear picture.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboeckfu.png

14.) Finally the GDDR6 I/O, which MS officially annotated but they would have been easy to make out anyway.
DRAM PHYs are usually the largest interfaces on a chip and in most cases there are no other options which fit to the memory specifications.
For example the Xbox Series X has a 320-Bit wide interface and each GDDR6 memory chip is connected via 32-Bits, meaning that the PHY needs to fit to the number 10 in some way.
Either we should see 5 larger blocks, 10 or 20 but not something which is not part of that number series.
On the Xbox Series X we see exactly 10 larger I/O PHYs around the chip edges.

In addition I made just a visual representation how the 10GB of "GPU Optimal Memory" should be in principle mapped over the full 320-Bit Interface and how the 6GB "Standard Memory" is addressed over 192-Bits/6 memory chips.
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbodekll.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xboy7jki.png
https://abload.de/img/mega-leaks-part-5-xbo83kyk.png

------

In the end we should roughly come up with this picture (yellow TMU blocks are part of the WGPs and the green/cyan blocks on the left and right side from the Parameter Cache should relate to the Primitive Units and Rasterizer):
1600-xboxldjpu.jpg


Full res and with other information here:


One interesting point may relate to the CCXes:
Ew3VvHxWgAAik-p


The PS5 CPU has some cut downs on the FPU side (at least the FP register file was reduced), making the CCX shorter than on the Xbox Series and AMD's Zen2 CPUs.

____

Any feedback, questions or answers are welcomed. :)
Click to expand...

So the PS5 has older ROPs, not RNDA2 correct me if I'm wrong, cheers 👍
 
A

abel empire

Banned
LiquidRex said:
But how much RAM is available for Devs on PS5, we still don't know officially and I wonder if we ever will.
Click to expand...
Could be more considering the ssd has 512mb aswell could be anything from 14-15gb is my guess but that wouldnt be a big problem for series x 13.5gb it just means multi platform games will target 13.5gb as base and ps5 io as base depending if the game requires ssd streaming like open world games! This wont be an issue on pc since nobody cares about pcs. Youll have to deal with popin on other machines.
 
Mr_Potato

Mr_Potato

Banned
MasterCornholio said:
What I'm saying is that I'm not seeing a 2TF kind of a difference in these games.
Click to expand...
There's no such thing as a 2 TF difference, it doesn't mean anything. That's MS marketing, I know, but machines don't actually work like that, tons of devs explained that already. TF are theorical peak number of instructions per second, it's meaningless in real life. You never reach this number. Then there's cache, system clock, I/O, memory bandwidth, hardware customizations of all sorts... All those have nothing to do with teraflops.

So no, there was no reason to think Series X would be faster, we just didn't know. Devs said from the start it would be closer than ever. They were definitely right. If anything, PS5 seems to have a small advantage, we'll know for sure only when full next gen games start to release (multiplatform games not available on last gen consoles), so it'll take some time.
 
Last edited:
Garani

Garani

Member
Neo_game said:
Clockspeed do matter but still SX has 18% more due to more CU. Microsoft in Hot chips presentation stated that SX can do 380 billion ray intersection per sec. 4*52*1.825ghz = 379.6. So the PS5 should be 4*36*2.23ghz = 321.12. Which is 18% less.
Click to expand...

Someone once said "you have to feed those CUs with work" and "it's easier to do it with a higher clock".

I can't quite remember who said that... :messenger_smiling_horns:
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
Garani said:
The funny thing is that a simple 1 hour presentation by Mark Cerney keeps on giving. It's incredible how much you can just quote it and the discussion kinda ends there :D

I mean Sony hasn't said anything else on the hardware but that one hour video!
Click to expand...

Some people brushed it off as marketing BS but some of what he said did come true. I'm curious to see what will happen once developers take full advantage of the PS5 once they get used to the tools.
 
skit_data

skit_data

Member
MasterCornholio said:
Some people brushed it off as marketing BS but some of what he said did come true. I'm curious to see what will happen once developers take full advantage of the PS5 once they get used to the tools.
Click to expand...
I mean, we werent actually meant to even see the Road to PS5 on youtube at all IIRC, it was meant for GDC. I have a hard time of thinking of it in ”marketing”-terms. Marketing for devs maybe, but It was clearly not aimed at casual viewers, even if it turned out that way.
 
SSfox

SSfox

Member
I know that it's hard for Sony now to make bunch of stock of PS5, but i really want and can't wait them to start on making the full black edition of PS5.
 
Garani

Garani

Member
skit_data said:
I mean, we werent actually meant to even see the Road to PS5 on youtube at all IIRC, it was meant for GDC. I have a hard time of thinking of it in ”marketing”-terms. Marketing for devs maybe, but It was clearly not aimed at casual viewers, even if it turned out that way.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but I am so incredibly happy that they did it anyhow. I get it that it was too technical for a lot of people, but for me it was very informative and I actually found it a bit too simplistic.
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
skit_data said:
I mean, we werent actually meant to even see the Road to PS5 on youtube at all IIRC, it was meant for GDC. I have a hard time of thinking of it in ”marketing”-terms. Marketing for devs maybe, but It was clearly not aimed at casual viewers, even if it turned out that way.
Click to expand...

When we did see it people said it was essentially marketing PR to damage control the github leaks.

But after seeing it and the results it's pretty obvious that it wasn't that. Cerny did make a lot of promises though and hopefully we will seen the results soon.
 
Lunatic_Gamer

Lunatic_Gamer

Member

PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S vs Switch Launch Sales Comparison Through Week 17 - Sales​


Ta7I2r6.png




PS5 Vs. Xbox Series X|S Vs. Switch Global:

  1. PS5: 6,078,333
  2. Switch: 4,096,742
  3. XSX|S: 3,944,563
Through the first 17 weeks available worldwide the PlayStation 5 is ahead of the Switch and Xbox Series X|S by a fair margin. The PS5 is ahead of the Switch by 1.98 million units and is 2.13 million units ahead of the Xbox Series X|S. The Switch is ahead of the Xbox Series X|S by only 131,189 units.

The PS5 has sold 6.08 million in 17 weeks worldwide, while the Switch sold 4.10 million units and the Xbox Series X|S 3.94 million units.

Looking at the marketshare through 17 weeks, the PlayStation 5 currently leads. The PS5 has a 43.1 percent marketshare, the Switch sits at 29.0 percent, and the Xbox Series X|S at 27.9 percent.

The Switch didn't reach current PS5 sales until week 30.

www.vgchartz.com

PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S vs Switch Launch Sales Comparison Through Week 17

This weekly mini-series compares the aligned launch sales of the PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S, and Nintendo Switch. It [...]
www.vgchartz.com www.vgchartz.com
 
skit_data

skit_data

Member
Garani said:
Yeah, but I am so incredibly happy that they did it anyhow. I get it that it was too technical for a lot of people, but for me it was very informative and I actually found it a bit too simplistic.
Click to expand...
I liked it as well, watched it live when it aired. I get what you mean by it being slightly too simplistic though. Microsoft has been very open about pretty much every single thing inside the Series X, while Sony has stayed much more tight-lipped. This has worked in Microsofts favour, at least in these types of forums.
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
Lunatic_Gamer said:

PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S vs Switch Launch Sales Comparison Through Week 17 - Sales​


Ta7I2r6.png




PS5 Vs. Xbox Series X|S Vs. Switch Global:

  1. PS5: 6,078,333
  2. Switch: 4,096,742
  3. XSX|S: 3,944,563
Through the first 17 weeks available worldwide the PlayStation 5 is ahead of the Switch and Xbox Series X|S by a fair margin. The PS5 is ahead of the Switch by 1.98 million units and is 2.13 million units ahead of the Xbox Series X|S. The Switch is ahead of the Xbox Series X|S by only 131,189 units.

The PS5 has sold 6.08 million in 17 weeks worldwide, while the Switch sold 4.10 million units and the Xbox Series X|S 3.94 million units.

Looking at the marketshare through 17 weeks, the PlayStation 5 currently leads. The PS5 has a 43.1 percent marketshare, the Switch sits at 29.0 percent, and the Xbox Series X|S at 27.9 percent.

The Switch didn't reach current PS5 sales until week 30.

www.vgchartz.com

PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S vs Switch Launch Sales Comparison Through Week 17

This weekly mini-series compares the aligned launch sales of the PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S, and Nintendo Switch. It [...]
www.vgchartz.com www.vgchartz.com
Click to expand...

And that's with an extreme shortage btw.

I know it's VGs but it's still pretty impressive.
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
skit_data said:
I liked it as well, watched it live when it aired. I get what you mean by it being slightly too simplistic though. Microsoft has been very open about pretty much every single thing inside the Series X, while Sony has stayed much more tight-lipped. This has worked in Microsofts favour, at least in these types of forums.
Click to expand...

I can definitely see that. But I'm wondering if they had something worth bragging about with the results that we are getting.

Pretty interesting how the quiet ones were supposed to be in serious trouble but that didn't happen.

I do agree that I wished Sony would have talked more about their system though. The results are certainly not something they should be embarrassed about in fact it's actually the opposite.
 
Garani

Garani

Member
Lysandros said:
The next video will explain how PS5 has the oldest RDNA 1.0 ROPS ever and how the machine was put together with spare parts obtained from ancient Akkadian graves.
Click to expand...

And it's still on par with the competitor :)

Lunatic_Gamer said:

PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S vs Switch Launch Sales Comparison Through Week 17 - Sales​


Ta7I2r6.png




PS5 Vs. Xbox Series X|S Vs. Switch Global:

  1. PS5: 6,078,333
  2. Switch: 4,096,742
  3. XSX|S: 3,944,563
Through the first 17 weeks available worldwide the PlayStation 5 is ahead of the Switch and Xbox Series X|S by a fair margin. The PS5 is ahead of the Switch by 1.98 million units and is 2.13 million units ahead of the Xbox Series X|S. The Switch is ahead of the Xbox Series X|S by only 131,189 units.

The PS5 has sold 6.08 million in 17 weeks worldwide, while the Switch sold 4.10 million units and the Xbox Series X|S 3.94 million units.

Looking at the marketshare through 17 weeks, the PlayStation 5 currently leads. The PS5 has a 43.1 percent marketshare, the Switch sits at 29.0 percent, and the Xbox Series X|S at 27.9 percent.

The Switch didn't reach current PS5 sales until week 30.

www.vgchartz.com

PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S vs Switch Launch Sales Comparison Through Week 17

This weekly mini-series compares the aligned launch sales of the PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S, and Nintendo Switch. It [...]
www.vgchartz.com www.vgchartz.com
Click to expand...

By looking at the chart, the real big jump is on the first week, after there the curve looks pretty much parallel to the competitors. It has slightly picked up speed in the last few weeks, thought.

skit_data said:
I liked it as well, watched it live when it aired. I get what you mean by it being slightly too simplistic though. Microsoft has been very open about pretty much every single thing inside the Series X, while Sony has stayed much more tight-lipped. This has worked in Microsofts favour, at least in these types of forums.
Click to expand...

Then again, what Cerny said is what it is happening. I am quite amazed!
 
Locuza

Locuza

Member
M1chl said:
Make a thread about it, it's shame to do such great work and let it be here.
Click to expand...
I already feel not so good about posting the video in this thread, self-promotion and such.
I may ask for a greenlight from a mod first.

LiquidRex said:
So the PS5 has older ROPs, not RNDA2 correct me if I'm wrong, cheers 👍
Click to expand...
There might be some changes done, based on what was on RDNA1 GPUs but the ROP configuration appears to be the same as on RDNA1.
Xbox Series uses the RB configuration found on RDNA2.
Now with configuration I mean how the ROPs are configured on a high level and not that they are exactly the same.
However by and large I would assume that the ROPs on the PS5 are mostly comparable to RDNA1 ROPs and the ROPs on the XS to ROPs on RDNA2 with HW support for Variable Rate Shading.

Lysandros said:
The next video will explain how PS5 has the oldest RDNA 1.0 ROPS ever and how the machine was put together with spare parts obtained from ancient Akkadian graves.
Click to expand...
Seriously though, the PS5 appears to use IP which is even older than on RDNA1 GPUs from AMD.
Indicating that Sony and AMD worked very early on this project.
However also new features such as RT are included, showing how flexible and granular the hw can be mixed and changed.
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
Locuza said:
I already feel not so good about posting the video in this thread, self-promotion and such.
I may ask for a greenlight from a mod first.


There might be some changes done, based on what was on RDNA1 GPUs but the ROP configuration appears to be the same as on RDNA1.
Xbox Series uses the RB configuration found on RDNA2.
Now with configuration I mean how the ROPs are configured on a high level and not that they are exactly the same.
However by and large I would assume that the ROPs on the PS5 are mostly comparable to RDNA1 ROPs and the ROPs on the XS to ROPs on RDNA2 with HW support for Variable Rate Shading.


Seriously though, the PS5 appears to use IP which is even older than on RDNA1 GPUs from AMD.
Indicating that Sony and AMD worked very early on this project.
However also new features such as RT are included, showing how flexible and granular the hw can be mixed and changed.
Click to expand...

What I'm wondering is if the PS5 is at a severe disadvantage based on what you've seen.

The current results show that the two are pretty close but there's the theory that the gap will widen massively in favor of the Series X due to having more RDNA2 features.
 
FranXico

FranXico

Member
Lunatic_Gamer said:

PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S vs Switch Launch Sales Comparison Through Week 17 - Sales​


Ta7I2r6.png




PS5 Vs. Xbox Series X|S Vs. Switch Global:

  1. PS5: 6,078,333
  2. Switch: 4,096,742
  3. XSX|S: 3,944,563
Through the first 17 weeks available worldwide the PlayStation 5 is ahead of the Switch and Xbox Series X|S by a fair margin. The PS5 is ahead of the Switch by 1.98 million units and is 2.13 million units ahead of the Xbox Series X|S. The Switch is ahead of the Xbox Series X|S by only 131,189 units.

The PS5 has sold 6.08 million in 17 weeks worldwide, while the Switch sold 4.10 million units and the Xbox Series X|S 3.94 million units.

Looking at the marketshare through 17 weeks, the PlayStation 5 currently leads. The PS5 has a 43.1 percent marketshare, the Switch sits at 29.0 percent, and the Xbox Series X|S at 27.9 percent.

The Switch didn't reach current PS5 sales until week 30.

www.vgchartz.com

PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S vs Switch Launch Sales Comparison Through Week 17

This weekly mini-series compares the aligned launch sales of the PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S, and Nintendo Switch. It [...]
www.vgchartz.com www.vgchartz.com
Click to expand...
The Switch didn't launch during a pandemic with isolation measures though.
 
Locuza

Locuza

Member
MasterCornholio said:
What I'm wondering is if the PS5 is at a severe disadvantage based on what you've seen.

The current results show that the two are pretty close but there's the theory that the gap will widen massively in favor of the Series X due to having more RDNA2 features.
Click to expand...
"Severe" is relative but from my perspective I wouldn't describe it that way and also don't see it happening in the future.
HW VRS is nice and you may get a 10% perf boost but that's not "severe" from my perspective.
On the other side the PS5 has some advantages which probably are the reasons behind the good performance numbers we already see vs. XSX.

* Higher clock rates are leading to higher Frontend and Backend throughput --> faster Command Processor, higher geometry throughput, higher pixel fillrate.

* Further the PS5 has 4MiB L2$ for 36 CUs, while the XSX has "only" 5MiB for 52 CUs.

* It's also easier to utilize 36 CUs than 52.

* The PS5 is using the old Render Backend design, which has 4 Color ROPs and 16 Z/Stencil ROPs.
XSX has the new RB+ design which has 8 Color ROPs but still 16 Z/Stencil ROPs.
Per Shader Engine this means the PS5 has 64 Color ROPs and 256 Z/Stencil ROPs, while the XSX has 64 Color ROPs and 128 Z/Stencil ROPs.

* Moreover the PS5 has GPU Cache Scrubbers making data evictions more efficient.

* Two address spaces on the Xbox Series may lead to worse bandwidth utilization and memory access times.

* The software stack could be more efficient on the PS5 or the developers optimized better for the PS5 platform.

Without profiling data and a precise breakdown it's not possible to say what really matters for a variety of games but on average I think the results we are seeing now, will more or less stay that way.
Unless some game version on borked on one platform or the either, I don't think people could distinguish between the platforms, in terms of resolution and performance, without a direct comparison in front of them.

Software ecosystem or something like VR-Support is much more important from my perspective.
 
Last edited:
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