That is how I feel especially since they will sell well to the core gamers for a year or 2. Then you drop the price to get more gamers on board spring of 2022. Lower prices made more sense when generations were 5 years. Now being 7 years plus 2 years of cross generation the extra cost makes more sense to have the machines age better.
- Status
That is how I feel especially since they will sell well to the core gamers for a year or 2. Then you drop the price to get more gamers on board spring of 2022. Lower prices made more sense when generations were 5 years. Now being 7 years plus 2 years of cross generation the extra cost makes more sense to have the machines age better.
bitbydeath
Member
I just can't wait to have hardware that boots up in under five seconds like my Mac.
I hope not to be honest it takes long enough to make games. To take away resources from new games for remasters is not worth it. I am sure the BC will be enhanced like the X which is good enough.
vpance
Member
OsirisBlack original leak said "7nm Navi GPU 2.1"
Maybe he misheard and the 2.1 was actually 21
Racer!
Member
Its no obsession really. Just Michael Pachter and a bunch of youtubers think it makes them look smart by repeating that, because PS3 launched with 599 in 2006.
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TLZ
Banned
Pro is on 16nm no? That's still more than double 7nm.
A question to all you who are more informative than myself, since CUs went from 18 to 36 (og to pro), and that's going from 28nm to 16nm, not even half the nm, shouldn't it be very easy to go 36cu to 72cu because we're going 16nm to 7nm (pro to PS5) and that's more than half the shrink size? Also, couldn't they have 2 7nm in there with 36cu each?
Or maybe it was their new streaming console, which imo doesn't need to exist because you can already stream on S, which will be much cheaper. Then you also have the X, which can be repurposed to use 7nm and RDNA possibly?
Anyway I'm glad it's not happening. Anaconda should be base.
SonGoku
Member
It should but its hard to tell for a number of reasons
- New architecture with a different transistor organization, caches hierarchy etc.
- Empty spaces found on 5700 cards (likely for yields) muddles the waters for comparisons
- RT and other additional secret sauce silicon
?
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Or...HDMI 2.1OsirisBlack original leak said "7nm Navi GPU 2.1"
Maybe he misheard and the 2.1 was actually 21
Jump from 28nm to 16nm was actually bigger then 16nm to 7nm. Its just PR marketing numbering, in reality former jump was bigger.
2nd thing, it does seem that CU size wise, RDNA is considerably bigger + you will want RT hardware on SOC to be implemented. So I wouldnt expect it, as Navi10 has bigger die at 40CU then RX580 on 16nm node.
TLZ
Banned
I mean 2 Navis with 36 cu each, since it's 7nm. Can it work like that?
TLZ
Banned
Well that sucks. I hope it isn't the case. Just concentrate on making sure you have the most powerful console because it's in your best interest to do so.
"Play our games anywhere, but it's best played on Scarlett, the most powerful".
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
No, and to answer your question earlier, I meant the first shrink from 28nm to 16nm allowed for them to double the CU in a butterfly placement.
Now I am not saying going from 16 to 7 will double it again, but one would think it would be more than 36 with super high clocks, I would guess in the 50 range (no less than 40) with clocks not as high as 1800. But we will see.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It will cost too much for a marketable price for just one box.
And screw the two box method, not only for baseline next gen games, but devs apparently not too keen on that either.
Rumors also said both were less than the PS5, thus the can of the lesser one. But again, just rumors.
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LordOfChaos
Member
7 nm lithography process - WikiChip
The 7 nanometer (7 nm) lithography process is a technology node semiconductor manufacturing process following the 10 nm process node. Mass production of integrated circuit fabricated using a 7 nm process began in 2018. The process technology will be phased out by leading-edge foundries by...
en.wikichip.org
28nm - 16 was a 50% reduction, 7nm is 0.34x the area of 16nm.
It's 10nm 7 didn't substantially differentiate itself from, but from 16 it's still a nice jump
Digital Foundry: AMD Zen 2/Navi Reaction + What It Means For Next-Gen Consoles
A little later than planned (flights, jetlag, other things), here's Rich and John with their take on the recent AMD Zen 2 and Navi reveals - along with what it all means for the next generation consoles.
SonGoku
Member
The power reduction is greater going from 28 ->16 but the density increase is greater going from 16 -> 7nm
Which is why i insist on lower clocked big chip.
I come at with 0.31x
>10nm offers 2X logic density than its 16nm predecessor
>Compared to its 10nm FinFET process, TSMC's 7nm FinFET features 1.6X logic density
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ethomaz
Banned
That is what I got too.
They changed 180 the strategy.
The good news is that developers will push more with no lower hardware to hold next-gen.
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Negotiator
Banned
16 -> 7nm offers 3.3x density improvement, so yeah, it's a bigger jump than 28 -> 16nm:
en.wikichip.org
In late 2020 it will be a mature (2.5 year old) node, just like 28nm was back in late 2013. High yields and bigger die sizes will be feasible. It's not just consoles that will demand this, but also 7nm Ampere GPUs from Nvidia!
I don't think another doubling of CUs is that far-fetched. Hybrid Polaris/Vega CUs are also more advanced (DCC, RPM etc.) than OG PS4 GCN 1.1 ones and yet, the butterfly setup happened.
Maybe they will cut the CPU L3 cache in half (32 -> 16MB) if they plan to use a mobile variant of Zen 2.
7 nm lithography process - WikiChip
The 7 nanometer (7 nm) lithography process is a technology node semiconductor manufacturing process following the 10 nm process node. Mass production of integrated circuit fabricated using a 7 nm process began in 2018. The process technology will be phased out by leading-edge foundries by...
en.wikichip.org
In late 2020 it will be a mature (2.5 year old) node, just like 28nm was back in late 2013. High yields and bigger die sizes will be feasible. It's not just consoles that will demand this, but also 7nm Ampere GPUs from Nvidia!
I don't think another doubling of CUs is that far-fetched. Hybrid Polaris/Vega CUs are also more advanced (DCC, RPM etc.) than OG PS4 GCN 1.1 ones and yet, the butterfly setup happened.
Maybe they will cut the CPU L3 cache in half (32 -> 16MB) if they plan to use a mobile variant of Zen 2.
SonGoku
Member
Ovech-King
Member
Even at 499$ the value is insane , people needs to get better job seriously...
Kazekage1981
Member
so xbox scarlett and ps5 have these specs:
zen 2 8 core /12 thread CPU
Navi based GPU (xbox scarlett having hardware acceleration ray tracing & ps5 having a mixture of both?!)
20-25 GB of GDDR6 range
1 TB Fast SSD Storage
10-12 TFLOP range.
Backwards compatibility with enhanced graphics
4K HDR up to 120Hz
HDMI 2.1
Some sort of secret sauce
From a noob or average consumer I cant tell which one will better or is currently better except for maybe software preference? Ecosystem? Cloud support? Will the next gen consoles have:
WiFi 6 ?
USB 3.1 Gen 2 ?
Bluetooth 5.0?
The current physical media is Ultra Blu-Ray Disk Drive that goes up to 100GB per disk, but will there be a better blu-ray format that can store more data (150GB and up) ?
zen 2 8 core /12 thread CPU
Navi based GPU (xbox scarlett having hardware acceleration ray tracing & ps5 having a mixture of both?!)
20-25 GB of GDDR6 range
1 TB Fast SSD Storage
10-12 TFLOP range.
Backwards compatibility with enhanced graphics
4K HDR up to 120Hz
HDMI 2.1
Some sort of secret sauce
From a noob or average consumer I cant tell which one will better or is currently better except for maybe software preference? Ecosystem? Cloud support? Will the next gen consoles have:
WiFi 6 ?
USB 3.1 Gen 2 ?
Bluetooth 5.0?
The current physical media is Ultra Blu-Ray Disk Drive that goes up to 100GB per disk, but will there be a better blu-ray format that can store more data (150GB and up) ?
Imtjnotu
Member
8c/16t *
Gamernyc78
Banned
Thts what I'm hoping for fanboy bs aside I think we can all agree that we want both companies to focus on one sku so tht the exclusives take advantage of the one, powerful hardware and not be held back by a lesser powerful one being involved. Shit I even want both consoles to be comparable in build and power so tht the multiplat devs can optimize better and give us all great games and best performing ones on both.
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bitbydeath
Member
Insane Metal
Member
Even if games use that kind of media, the BD reader has to be REALLY fast or else the SSD will make no difference to install the games 
Edit: apparently the fastest is 16x BD which is 72MB/s. So if my math is not too bad it should take around 30 minutes to complete a disc read at that speed... but we all know it's not constant... and it won't be 16x drive since it's more expensive.
Edit: apparently the fastest is 16x BD which is 72MB/s. So if my math is not too bad it should take around 30 minutes to complete a disc read at that speed... but we all know it's not constant... and it won't be 16x drive since it's more expensive.
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I think there is a 95% chance both have the same basic RT hardware. AMD does not have the resources for a new version for Sony. It might have a few different instructions or minor differences. I would say these consoles will be 90% identical hardware wise. The difference will be CU count, clocks, ram,ssd size and some minor tweaks taken from future AMD GPU's aka secret sauce. Sounds like Sony has a deal for faster ram. I think everything points at Sony winning the spec war after MS changed from 2 to 1 console. Instead of a high and low end scarlet will be in between. Maybe try under cut Sony on price by 50 dollars.
Burrito Bandito
Banned
i seriously question the rumors that MS planned two consoles and BOTH were less powerful than PS5. That defies all logic imo.
I take all rumors with a massive grain of salt and tend to look at what is more reasonably sound.
Who has by far the most to lose by producing a weaker console this gen? MS
Who has produced the stronger console 3 out of 4 times? MS
Who can more afford, and be more willing, to take a loss per console sold? MS
Honestly, it seems like market suicide to release a console weaker than Sonys if you are MS. You arent going to regain the lost marketshare during this gen by releasing a weaker console at the same price. It simply doesnt make sense from a business perspective and I would assume they would do whatever they could to avoid this situation, including taking a loss
I wouldnt be surprised if these rumors of PS5 being 30% more powerful were based on Lockheart
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It could be argued 2 out of 4. PS360 was a push if anything.
And with both that were more powerful, came out a year or more later. Never had the power advantage launch aligned.
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Mass Shift
Member
Until someone leaks an accurate Scarlett kit with 48GBs of gddr6, I take it all with salt.
TLZ
Banned
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I don't believe the Spy vs Spy scenario. With the streamlining to AMD custom SoC and having 2 different consoles last gen, I think both manufacturers know who they are without peeping-tom into each other's windows at night.
As somebody whose family plays Xbox(we have 3), the SoC and RAM config they showed was above what I expected, so I've tried to justify it with RT and tensor cores taking the space. I'm excited that Scarlett is shaping up to be powerful, but I'm not supposed to be excited for this because...what exactly?
---
You know what's not "another GAF w/Bish"? Actual. Real. In the muthafukin' flesh...GAF.
As somebody whose family plays Xbox(we have 3), the SoC and RAM config they showed was above what I expected, so I've tried to justify it with RT and tensor cores taking the space. I'm excited that Scarlett is shaping up to be powerful, but I'm not supposed to be excited for this because...what exactly?
---
You know what's not "another GAF w/Bish"? Actual. Real. In the muthafukin' flesh...GAF.
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Mass Shift
Member
Scale it back? Can they realistically do that? Wouldn't that be a waste of all of their co-engineering efforts with AMD?
And why would they scale it back? I thought the main strategy was to have something more powerful and price it to undercut their competition.
bitbydeath
Member
Scale it back? Can they realistically do that? Wouldn't that be a waste of all of their co-engineering efforts with AMD?
And why would they scale it back? I thought the main strategy was to have something more powerful and price it to undercut their competition.
Thing is the hardware needs to exist to earn this additional cost which we've heard everything from Zen 3 to made up GPU's. There was even a few comments on being less powerful on paper but still more powerful overall or some hogwash.
In short, a $600+ machine never existed.
At best it would have been 1-2TF greater than PS5.
demigod
Member
Scale it back? Can they realistically do that? Wouldn't that be a waste of all of their co-engineering efforts with AMD?
And why would they scale it back? I thought the main strategy was to have something more powerful and price it to undercut their competition.
Their strategy was supposed to have 2 SKUs, Lockhart being an underpowered 1080p box while Anaconda was supposed to be higher priced and more powerful than PS5. Now that the lower priced console is out of the equation, it doesn't make sense for them to have Anaconda at a higher price than PS5.
ArabianPrynce
Member
I am curious about the tflop numbers still Matt from era mentioned something along the lines of
"there is a good reason both companies are no sharing those numbers" i am paraphrasing but you get my point. If the tflops were much higher than pro or one x i think they would be confident in mentioning it. Sure navi 8tflops = 10 tflop gcn but to the average consumer 8tflop is not much above pros 4 or one x 6tflops.
I was also reading old pages of this thread, someone mentioned that the soc is locked in 2 years before i higly doubt they got their hands 7nm+ that early when it wasnt even annouced yet.
"there is a good reason both companies are no sharing those numbers" i am paraphrasing but you get my point. If the tflops were much higher than pro or one x i think they would be confident in mentioning it. Sure navi 8tflops = 10 tflop gcn but to the average consumer 8tflop is not much above pros 4 or one x 6tflops.
I was also reading old pages of this thread, someone mentioned that the soc is locked in 2 years before i higly doubt they got their hands 7nm+ that early when it wasnt even annouced yet.
ArabianPrynce
Member
Navi seems like a really bad gpu overall, AMD didnt make much use of the 7nm chip
ArabianPrynce
Member
I am gonna stick to team 8tflops for now but hoping for more. Hope my lord and savior cerny can save us.
TeamGhobad
Banned
will they upscale lockhart specs or downscale anaconda? its not a good look being this uncertain of what you want to build this late into the game...
either way things are not looking positive for MS. personally i hope lockhart was just a fake console sent out to fool sony.
either way things are not looking positive for MS. personally i hope lockhart was just a fake console sent out to fool sony.
Was looking for this. This is PS5, I am pretty sure. It was probably leaked by someone in manufacturing QA. Pretty sure this means by May 21 first real DevKits (with actual chip) have been manufactured. Probably everything before this was PC parts (Vega?).
TeamGhobad
Banned
thelastword
Banned
PS3 was more powerful than the 360...…..PS3 > 360...…. PS4 > XBONES
Bankai
Member
360 had a more powerful GPU. Cell in the PS3 was awesome, but exotic.
Evilms
Banned
Some examples for HBM memory bandwidth:
4 GB HBM1 - 4096 bit - 512 GB/s - 1000 MHz => (1 GT/s ÷ 8 x 4096 = 512 GB/s)
8 GB HBM2 - 2048 bit - 409.6 GB/s - 1600 MHz
8 GB HBM2 - 2048 bit - 483.8 GB/s - 1890 MHz
12 GB HBM2 - 3072 bit - 651.3 GB/s - 1696 MHz
16 GB HBM2 - 4096 bit - 1024 GB/s - 2000 MHz
[Samsung : HBM2 data bandwidth calculation]
-An 8GB HBM2 package's data bandwidth : 2.4Gbps per pin x 1024bit bus = 307.2GB/s
Using four HBM2 packages in a system: 307.2GB/s x 4 = 1228.8GBps = approximately 1.2TB/s
Samsung Starts Producing 8-Gigabyte High Bandwidth Memory-2 with Highest Data Transmission Speed
The new HBM2, Aquabolt™, features today’s highest DRAM performance levels, for use in next-generation supercomputers, AI solutions and graphics systems
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joshwaan
Member
Im very excited see performance improvements thanks to the cpu https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-2700-vs-AMD-Athlon-5350-APU-R3/3957vsm10020
Closest thing find to xbox/ps4 chip.
As you guys see it be a massive improvement and thats with 2700 selected. Hope they keep l3 cache at 32mb and clock at least 3.2ghz
Closest thing find to xbox/ps4 chip.
As you guys see it be a massive improvement and thats with 2700 selected. Hope they keep l3 cache at 32mb and clock at least 3.2ghz
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- Status