Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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halo infinite will be a launch game, and issue with launch games for most of the gens is that they are not that impressive

Halo's problem is not that it is a launch game, but rather that it is inherently limited because of the MS multi-generation politics.
 
We speak third party/multi?

As I understand it they would have to create an new adoptable/dynamic kind of engine to utilize this feature.
Can't see this happening in the near future.

And sure, we may see exclusive games on PS5 which will not be possible/portable on XSX or PC. But it will be difficult to compare notes as it where. We may compare engines, but that's very much it.

Can you elaborate?
I don't subscribe to the notion that games made for PS5 being impossible on XbX. Both are pushing mass availability of data unlike past gens. However one is twice as fast in this aspect.

New engines perhaps, modified and adapted engines more likely. Indeed the engines would be simplified from past gens where workarounds and tricks will be significantly lessened. The same engine will be adaptable between both consoles, the difference may lie in PS5 having a higher rez texture pack, or greater verity of assets - instead of one pot plant, we will have 2 different ones, etc.

1st & 2nd party can push it to the max. 3rd party may do the minimum or do nothing at all to avoid backlash.

Games tailored to these platforms being done on HDD based systems is a whole new conversation.
 
halo infinite will be a launch game, and issue with launch games for most of the gens is that they are not that impressive (not taking full advantage of the hardware) compared to end of gen titles, for me if games next gen can look like cut scenes in ghost of Tsushima I will be a happy man, with reduced load times and rt

They are impressive, graphically/scope-wise, but as far as gameplay goes, I couldn't agree more, it's hard to get more forgettable games than launch titles. it's like the devs had to make it to launch and didn't have enough time for at least a decent plot and gameplay.
 
PC games will never achieve:
  • 1-second boot time
  • multiple games in suspend and resume in less than a second
  • no loading screens
  • jumping straight to a section in a game or online lobby in a second


That immediacy cannot be duplicated in a PC even if their SSD reach 10GB/s because of the inherent bottlenecks in the PC architecture.

Although, PC can chase PS5 when it comes to streaming high resolution textures and details by using an excessive amount of RAM to compensate and used as a large cache.
Microsoft should sell an Xbox for office version. 3 times the price, windows installed. Pretty much ready to go this gen. Follow the Apple lead, or even their own Surface approach.

Would be silly not to.
 
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I think at some point we will reach a dimishing return in how big and detailed open world games could be. Like it won´t make any sense to make even a GTA5 sized game where you can enter every building and every room if there won´t be anything to do for a player just because you can. Of course you have the exploration type of players, but that is a really small part of the player base.
Yes, there will be Star Citizen where you can go to hundreds of different planets, but the developers have to give you something to do there. Just sight seeing won´t be enough and that would be wasted development costs.

It doesn't mean that every room or building that is explorable will take its own additional space in the disc though. Rooms and explorable interior can have common assets and need not to be individually decorated and modeled. Offline procedural rendering probably will help a lot of producing assets without requiring hundreds of developer hours.

What the PS5 SSD and I/O affords is the ability of have every interior explorable without limiting the RAM budget. It will also not necessarily inflate the disc space like some people are saying because the interiors doesn't have to have unique assets for each and everyone of them.
 
Microsoft should sell an Xbox for office version. 3 times the price, windows installed. Pretty much ready to go this gen. Follow the Apple lead, or even their own Surface approach.

It won't be faster than PC in PC apps.
You forget that games are rewritten for each new hardware.
Nobody would rewrite consumer/enterprise apps for the new SSD speeds.
 
It won't be faster than PC in PC apps.
You forget that games are rewritten for each new hardware.
Nobody would rewrite consumer/enterprise apps for the new SSD speeds.
Absolutely, but windows store games that run in their own container could take advantage of the suspend/resume aspect of the hardware due to the unified ram and ssd architecture.
 
I don't subscribe to the notion that games made for PS5 being impossible on XbX. Both are pushing mass availability of data unlike past gens. However one is twice as fast in this aspect.

New engines perhaps, modified and adapted engines more likely. Indeed the engines would be simplified from past gens where workarounds and tricks will be significantly lessened. The same engine will be adaptable between both consoles, the difference may lie in PS5 having a higher rez texture pack, or greater verity of assets - instead of one pot plant, we will have 2 different ones, etc.

1st & 2nd party can push it to the max. 3rd party may do the minimum or do nothing at all to avoid backlash.

Games tailored to these platforms being done on HDD based systems is a whole new conversation.

That depends on how fast xsex I/O is. If we go by their official loading demonstration which shows 10 seconds of loading times and extrapolate that the delay is because of the same bottlenecks present in the PC then we have a problem. So we have to wait and see how xsex I/O stacks up to the PS5 I/O.

Because in a case where xsex I/O delays the data by 5-10 seconds then games that are developed to take advantage of instant retrieval of data cannot work on xsex. For example a game where in the open world itself (Ram usage is maxed) you can change dimension where the environment around you change before your eyes.
In this case, xsex will have to limit the amount of Ram effectively used by the GPU to cache assets needed to implement such gameplay design. If you limit the amount of Ram, you limit your game details.

IEvery game is possible even in the current gen provided that the entire game is already housed in the meager 5.5GB of Ram we have now. But that will limit the graphics and visuals of the game.

Without fast SSD and I/O, you either limit the graphics or you limit gameplay. Final Fantasy 7 Remake chose the latter. A lot of design decisions were made to make a game that is visually impressive (although they still failed in some aspects because of lack of Ram/fast SSD)
 
Absolutely, but windows store games that run in their own container could take advantage of the suspend/resume aspect of the hardware due to the unified ram and ssd architecture.

I suppose MSFT can do it on PCs too with hyperV.
But I think HyperV people will not support Direct Storage unless threatened. :)
 

The new Series X Logo

Looks cool
They should just drop "xbox" at this point.
 
That depends on how fast xsex I/O is. If we go by their official loading demonstration which shows 10 seconds of loading times and extrapolate that the delay is because of the same bottlenecks present in the PC then we have a problem. So we have to wait and see how xsex I/O stacks up to the PS5 I/O.

Because in a case where xsex I/O delays the data by 5-10 seconds then games that are developed to take advantage of instant retrieval of data cannot work on xsex. For example a game where in the open world itself (Ram usage is maxed) you can change dimension where the environment around you change before your eyes.
In this case, xsex will have to limit the amount of Ram effectively used by the GPU to cache assets needed to implement such gameplay design. If you limit the amount of Ram, you limit your game details.

IEvery game is possible even in the current gen provided that the entire game is already housed in the meager 5.5GB of Ram we have now. But that will limit the graphics and visuals of the game.

Without fast SSD and I/O, you either limit the graphics or you limit gameplay. Final Fantasy 7 Remake chose the latter. A lot of design decisions were made to make a game that is visually impressive (although they still failed in some aspects because of lack of Ram/fast SSD)
Sure, no disagreement. But if we go by the presented premise that XsX has half speed streaming vs PS5, we can extrapolate that streaming is doable in the same amount of time as PS5 to meet the gameplay design - BUT at half the detail.

Keeping in mind certain decision can still be made to make it look somewhat reasonable, like repeating similar textures on XsX where PS5 will have unique ones.

This cannot be extended to hdd systems as the gulf is too deep requiring significant differences in asset delivery which may be out of reach for ambitious visions.
 
Logo for console packaging.


sm40JTA.png
 
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I suppose MSFT can do it on PCs too with hyperV.
But I think HyperV people will not support Direct Storage unless threatened. :)

so in fact quick resume is like launching a vm with a state like on pc ?
if yes i don't expect to see it on pc
 
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I know we joked about the PS5 logo and all but I find this so bland like the design of the console and controller there's no personality or character (jokingly like what XBOX games were this gen)
Xbox division goes for a minimal and clean look. Can be interpreted as bland, but that's different for each person of course.
 
Technically he didn't imply that, he just said what it would take for full RT. Wouldn't billions ray/s enter Pixar farms territory?
Kilo, Mega, Giga ~= Thousand(10^3), Million(10^6), Billion(10^9)
Nvidia's top cards are already claiming high single digit GigaRays/s with 30% real world use according to psorcerer - and the numbers fit with 10 rays per pixel at 1080p and 4K frame-rates for path tracing - although on PC it gets blurred at what frame-rate effects are being update in the Minecraft/Quake2 examples in which I suspect more rays per frame in some parts and less frame updates for others.

Sony Pictures, Pixar, etc using RT will be at least 10x times that, going by an internet talk I watched a few weeks back of someone promoting their RT middleware - in this thread the middleware has been predicted for use this gen many times, but the product name escapes me – in the talk he showed his interactive RT frame render and compared to a reference offline RT shot of the same frame that took orders of magnitude longer to render.
The slide Mark Cenry showed was a follow on from the geometry engine capabilities, and if you consider the words he used about PS4 engines. That isn't someone pitching PS4 engines just with RT (3d audio, GI, shadows &) reflections added (IMHO), otherwise the sentence would have been we expect you to keep using your old engines with these enhanced lighting features.
"modest costs" for a hundreds of millions rays/s lighting (IMHO) implies at least 1-2 GigaRays/s at full load(eg maybe a 25% modest cost for 450M rays), which would be 1080p30 or 60 with headroom for rays that don't contribute to final image if processed more efficiently than non-HSA PCs. I mean, why even put Full RT on the slide if your product can't do it?

Mark Cerny
"Another major new feature of our custom RDNA2 based GPU is ray tracing using the same strategy as AMD's upcoming PC GPUs."
"The CUs contain a new specialized unit called the intersection engine, which can calculate the intersections of rays with boxes and triangles."
"To use the intersection engine, first you build what is called an acceleration structure."
"It is data in RAM that contains all of your geometry."
"There is a specific set of formats you can use, their variations on the same BVH concept."
" Then in your shader program you use a new instruction, that asks the intersection engine to check array against the BVH."
"While the intersection engine is processing the requested ray-triangle ray-box intersections the shaders are free to do other work."
Having said that, the ray tracing instruction is pretty memory intensive, so it's a good mix with logic heavy code."
"There is of course not need to use ray tracing. PS4 graphics engines will run just fine on PlayStation 5."
"But it presents an opportunity for those interested."
"I'm thinking it'll take less than a million rays a second to have a big impact on audio. That should be enough for audio occlusion and some reverb calculations."
"With a bit more of the GPU invested in ray tracing it should be possible to do some very nice global illumination."
"Having said that, adding ray traced shadows and reflections to a traditional graphics engine could easily take hundreds of millions of rays a second."
"And full ray tracing could take billions."
"how far can we go? I'm starting to get quite bullish."
"I've already seen a PlayStation 5 title that's successfully using ray tracing based reflections in complex animated scenes with only modest costs."
"Another set of issues for the GPU involved size and frequency."
"How big do we make the GPU? And what frequency do we run it at?"
"This is a balancing act. The chip has a cost and there's a cost for whatever we use to supply that chip with power, and to cool it."
"In general, I like running the GPU at a higher frequency."
"Let me show you why."
"Here's two possible configurations for a GPU roughly of the level of the Playstation 4 Pro".
36 CU @ 1GHz VS 48 CU @ 0.75GHz
"This is a thought experiment. Don't take these configurations too seriously."
"If you just calculate Teraflops you get the same number, but actually the performance is noticeably different because teraflops is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU."
"That's just one part of the GPU, there are a lot of other units and those other units all run faster when the GPU frequency is higher. At 33% higher frequency rasterization goes 33% faster."
"Processing the command buffer goes that much faster."
"The L2 and other caches have that much higher bandwidth, and so on."
"About the only downside is that system memory is 33% further away - in terms more cycles."
"But the large number of benefits more than counterbalanced that..."
 

Veo que Sony ha sido un poco más osada y sí que ha intentado ver un poco más con la función del botón de compartir, que era un proceso más unidireccional basado únicamente en compartir la experiencia. En este caso, con Create, podrás hacer algo un poco más activo. Y ahí lo dejo", apuntilla entre risas, consciente de hasta dónde puede hablar en estos momentos.

I see that Sony has been a little more daring and yes that it has tried to see a little more with the function of the button of sharing, that was a more one-way process based on the shared experience. In this case, with Create, you can do something a little more active. And I'll leave it there, "he laughs, aware of how far he can speak right now.

He seems excited about the create button.

What could he meant by the previous share button being one-way process and that the now create button is more active? Could it be what other people are suggesting that you can share/create a save state of your game where other players cannot only view what you shared but also play that portion of the game themselves?
 
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Quite the amusing doomsday view. Until we see PS5 running that Minecraft demo, we really can't make assumptions off of that. I think there would be some advantages to casting more simultaneous rays, something that a wider approach leans into.
Would more simultaneous rays on less cycles help reduce wasted teraflops from redundant workloads? From my view, wider and slower costs more teraflop performance when doing redundant work - as it cost you more time -, and leaves you even less cycles per frame to redirect that compute for ray casting that is relevant.

If a Zen2 processor only had half its cores useable, would you expect i, or a 1..6GHz Jaguar with all 8 cores working to deliver faster frame-rates - if uncapped in a fair test?
 



He seems excited about the create button.

What could he meant by the previous share button being one-way process and that the now create button is more active? Could it be what other people are suggesting that you can share/create a save state of your game where other players cannot only view what you shared but also play that portion of the game themselves?
Dude it's Raúl Rubio, from Tequila Works .. you know the same guy who was exciedt about Stadia. He's excited about everything.

Just ribbing though - I love Rubio's games :)
 
Xbox division goes for a minimal and clean look. Can be interpreted as bland, but that's different for each person of course.
I get that but for something that is supposed to represent something cutting edge and entertaining its such a corporate logo its looking at it is like the Police interrogation scene of Principal Skinner in the Who Shot Mr Burns episode

 



He seems excited about the create button.

What could he meant by the previous share button being one-way process and that the now create button is more active? Could it be what other people are suggesting that you can share/create a save state of your game where other players cannot only view what you shared but also play that portion of the game themselves?
So? Does being excited for Stadia discredit his opinion on everything else?

Interesting, if it is the ability to share a state and play on, this is something that Stadia promised, so it may make sense that he is excited about them both (if that is even it).

Ultimately the button itself is just a shortcut to OS functionality, so whatever they have up their sleeve, it is likely that MS can just copy it eventually anyway.
 
Depending of the sacrifices required it might be preferable to run at 10-18% lower resolution (barely noticeable if at all) and mantain graphics/fps parity
Of course there can be games where the difference in settings is unoticeable so they run bot at same resolution

Lastly don't go expecting all games to hit native 4k next gen, reconstruction techniques and dynamic resolution will be more common on both consoles as devs start to push visuals even further

So, what's more determinative of graphical quality? Texture resolution, level of detail, and draw distance? Or screen-output resolution?

When you say that the PS5 will run games at resolutions 10-18% lower than the XSX, do you mean that texture resolution, level of detail, and draw distance will be the same but screen-output resolution will be lower?
 
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Would more simultaneous rays on less cycles help reduce wasted teraflops from redundant workloads? From my view, wider and slower costs more teraflop performance when doing redundant work - as it cost you more time -, and leaves you even less cycles per frame to redirect that compute for ray casting that is relevant.

If a Zen2 processor only had half its cores useable, would you expect i, or a 1..6GHz Jaguar with all 8 cores working to deliver faster frame-rates - if uncapped in a fair test?

Bit of a straw-man, there is such a huge performance gap between the Jaguar and the Zen 2. The difference is less than 20% pure clock between these GPUs. It would be more a case of two Zen 2 processors, an 8 core at 3Ghz and a 4 core at 3.8Ghz. On a system where workload is heavy and parallel (multi-threaded), the 8 core wins every single time, where workload is more limited or single-threaded, the higher clock wins.
 
This may be a dumb question and answered in previous 1700 pages but why would Sony and MS take the same technology from AMD but one company push to 2.23 Ghz and the other company only push to 1.82 GHz?

Is this because MS was always going for 12TF and never need to push the CUs higher; while Sony was shooting lower initially and then their only option was to push clocks much higher? Why would sony stick to a low CU count? Form factor?

Theoretically, MS could shoot for the same frequency as Sony right? Is there anything stopping MS from doing that? Just curious
 
This may be a dumb question and answered in previous 1700 pages but why would Sony and MS take the same technology from AMD but one company push to 2.23 Ghz and the other company only push to 1.82 GHz?

Is this because MS was always going for 12TF and never need to push the CUs higher; while Sony was shooting lower initially and then their only option was to push clocks much higher? Why would sony stick to a low CU count? Form factor?

Theoretically, MS could shoot for the same frequency as Sony right? Is there anything stopping MS from doing that? Just curious
No, too much heat with that CU count + CPU clock.
 
This may be a dumb question and answered in previous 1700 pages but why would Sony and MS take the same technology from AMD but one company push to 2.23 Ghz and the other company only push to 1.82 GHz?

Is this because MS was always going for 12TF and never need to push the CUs higher; while Sony was shooting lower initially and then their only option was to push clocks much higher? Why would sony stick to a low CU count? Form factor?

Theoretically, MS could shoot for the same frequency as Sony right? Is there anything stopping MS from doing that? Just curious

It is because Sony's design is a complete paradigm shift with regards to thermals. instead of waiting for power to wasted as heat, they are changing clock to avoid thermal latency. The ability to clock so high at efficient power use, and lower temp per clock is a result of the design. Microsoft could try to match the clockpeed but would have to make the box 4 times the area with a monster heat exchanger and bigger PSU, or run hot and loud.
 
It is because Sony's design is a complete paradigm shift with regards to thermals. instead of waiting for power to wasted as heat, they are changing clock to avoid thermal latency. The ability to clock so high at efficient power use, and lower temp per clock is a result of the design. Microsoft could try to match the clockpeed but would have to make the box 4 times the area with a monster heat exchanger and bigger PSU, or run hot and loud.
Is this supposed to be parody? It's total nonsense.
 
It is because Sony's design is a complete paradigm shift with regards to thermals. instead of waiting for power to wasted as heat, they are changing clock to avoid thermal latency. The ability to clock so high at efficient power use, and lower temp per clock is a result of the design. Microsoft could try to match the clockpeed but would have to make the box 4 times the area with a monster heat exchanger and bigger PSU, or run hot and loud.
Or completely redesign the cooling system a la Sony's mooted custom solution.
 
Because they are different companies with different engineers who had different targets and different processes to get there.

Contrary to popular belief, using the same technology from AMD doesn't mean they went ahead and said "I want that GPU", it means instead that they both had access to AMD's roadmap and chose pieces from it while adding pieces themselves in some cases, but in the end both came up with their own custom designs.

These GPUs will share a lot of similarities but they wont be the same except that one is wider and slower and the other narrower and faster.

What would stop them both from changing their GPUs to mimick the other is that everything they have now works because it was designed to work that way. Changes this late could cost a fortune or mess up thermals, wreck yields etc

These systems will go into mass production late May or early June IMO. Time has run out.
 
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Is randomised quests not a thing in gaming? Are all quests hand crafted? Genuine question because I'm sure there are smart people out there who could figure out how to procedurally generate side quests with a handful of then hand crafted to keep things interesting.

Yes, of course to some point you can randomise quests, but to which extend I don´t know. At some point they will repeat itself.

It doesn't mean that every room or building that is explorable will take its own additional space in the disc though. Rooms and explorable interior can have common assets and need not to be individually decorated and modeled. Offline procedural rendering probably will help a lot of producing assets without requiring hundreds of developer hours.

What the PS5 SSD and I/O affords is the ability of have every interior explorable without limiting the RAM budget. It will also not necessarily inflate the disc space like some people are saying because the interiors doesn't have to have unique assets for each and everyone of them.

It is not because of the space or SSD or whatever. You don´t create rooms or landscapes, if players don´t have any intensions of going and being there. It is just a waste of development costs. Why would someone visit a house, if there is nothing to do? Because the developers could? No....they won´t go there or maybe one time and than move on.
 
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Bit of a straw-man, there is such a huge performance gap between the Jaguar and the Zen 2. The difference is less than 20% pure clock between these GPUs. It would be more a case of two Zen 2 processors, an 8 core at 3Ghz and a 4 core at 3.8Ghz. On a system where workload is heavy and parallel (multi-threaded), the 8 core wins every single time, where workload is more limited or single-threaded, the higher clock wins.
You avoided the more direct question about RT. RT is computationally expensive, and redundant work plays a large part of that expense. What do you make of the in-flight rays that are leaving the scene? Is it more wasteful on the slow and wider setup (time/teraflops)?

I take your point about clock comparison, but why at 3.8GHz? why not normalize at 2.23GHz?
 
Or completely redesign the cooling system a la Sony's mooted custom solution.
I don't think so, the solution is inside the APU, hence why the clock speed is deterministic by workload. They aren't watching a heat sensor 5 secs later, they are anticipating the heat from the bitstream pattern (the workload) being fed to the GPU - on a cycle by cycle basis AFAIK from Cerny's talk.


edit: obviously they are going for a more expensive heatsink/cooler, also according to the rumours.
 
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Is this supposed to be parody? It's total nonsense.
Please listen to Cerny's talk again. ignore the unnecessary off-hand last minute comment he made about smartshift. Their main solution appears nothing to do with smartshift. Fixed power, uniform transistor layout and very high (deterministic but)variable clock for deterministic workloads.

Edit:t typos
 
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When Mark Cerny was talking about having already seen a PlayStation 5 game running ray-traced reflections with only "modest costs" on the GPU, did he mean just ray-traced reflections or that combined with ray-traced audio, GI and shadows?
 
Because they are different companies with different engineers who had different targets and different processes to get there.

Contrary to popular belief, using the same technology from AMD doesn't mean they went ahead and said "I want that GPU", it means instead that they both had access to AMD's roadmap and chose pieces from it while adding pieces themselves in some cases, but in the end both came up with their own custom designs.

These GPUs will share a lot of similarities but they wont be the same except that one is wider and slower and the other narrower and faster.

What would stop them both from changing their GPUs to mimick the other is that everything they have now works because it was designed to work that way. Changes this late could cost a fortune or mess up thermals, wreck yields etc

These systems will go into mass production late May or early June IMO. Time has run out.

A lot of people seem to forget that both were offered the same roadmaps but chose different paths while each are still expected to come in at around the same price tag.
 
so in fact quick resume is like launching a vm with a state like on pc ?
if yes i don't expect to see it on pc

Yes. The problem with PC is that it's too slow to read the state in. It's not a ps2 emulator with 4MB of state. And it needs to write the old state out too. Both are either sequential memory copy (fast, but big) or random updates of changed blocks (small but random, and random access in PC SSDs sucks big time)
 
I have the exact same feelings about the PS5. Hope it doesn't hold back the XSX too much, and that they get destroyed in sales so developers can focus on the more powerful system, instead of that weak PS5.
I will more worried for the games lunch also in the old xbox one generation in the first two years and after lockhart. Microsoft create their own anchor so dont blame PS5 for that in the end the biggest delta of all the spec between the consoles is favor the PS5 SSD.
 
This may be a dumb question and answered in previous 1700 pages but why would Sony and MS take the same technology from AMD but one company push to 2.23 Ghz and the other company only push to 1.82 GHz?

Is this because MS was always going for 12TF and never need to push the CUs higher; while Sony was shooting lower initially and then their only option was to push clocks much higher? Why would sony stick to a low CU count? Form factor?

Theoretically, MS could shoot for the same frequency as Sony right? Is there anything stopping MS from doing that? Just curious
One has 40CUS the other 56CUs.
The chip will never reach PS5 clocks with 56CUs.
 
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When Mark Cerny was talking about having already seen a PlayStation 5 game running ray-traced reflections with only "modest costs" on the GPU, did he mean just ray-traced reflections or that combined with ray-traced audio, GI and shadows?

It will be combined with GI and shadows because you are already tracing the path of the lower order lighting fx, so it would make little sense to do reflections with out. Reflections of objects missing shadows would look very incoherent, and using shadow mapping with RT reflections probably isn't possible, because shadow mapping is usually hand tuned from knowing the circumstances the viewer can see the shadows. Reflections would be a new problem for that.

edit: 3D audio is slightly different because the wavelengths being bigger allow the wave to pass through materials in an attenuated way. But Cerny peg that as the cheap RT fx of less than 1Million Rays/s, so it sounds like a freebie in terms of hundreds of millions.
 
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It will be combined with GI and shadows because you are already tracing the path of the lower order lighting fx, so it would make little sense to do reflections with out. Reflections of objects missing shadows would look very incoherent, and using shadow mapping with RT reflections probably isn't possible, because shadow mapping is usually hand tuned from knowing the circumstances the viewer can see the shadows. Reflections would be a new problem for that.
Isn't that technically full ray-tracing then? Since it includes audio, GI, shadows and reflections, his wording kinda confused me when he said "how far can we go?" and then talked about running ray-traced reflections without mentioning full ray-tracing as if that's a completely different thing.
 
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