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[TheAdmiester]

I've noticed situations where a shadow is baked into an object coming from a larger object but then another object next to it will be lacking the appropriate shadow.

What's confusing me are the shadows in this shot. The sun is in roughly the same location and the car shadows are both elongated in the same direction. You'd expect shadows from the trees to be visible and similarly elongated. We see that on GT but not in Forza.

This whole race is like that - shadows are sparse and, when they do appear, the angle is often a little off.

For GT, what I think they're doing is rendering shadows real-time BUT the game does not have dynamic time of day switching due to the baked global illumination technique in use. AC Unity also used baked times of day. Horizon does as well, actually, but the developers found a way to smoothly transition between a handful of different pre-baked lighting conditions (which I guess could have worked in GT).

GT5 had real-time TOD changes but not any sort of GI system.

It's fascinating to see how the developers approached each problem.

Hmm, that's interesting. I can see what you mean, the car has a pronounced shadow so it must be in sunlight, but the tree shadows just aren't there.

Is this on console or PC you're comparing?

 

[jett]

I've noticed situations where a shadow is baked into an object coming from a larger object but then another object next to it will be lacking the appropriate shadow.

What's confusing me are the shadows in this shot. The sun is in roughly the same location and the car shadows are both elongated in the same direction. You'd expect shadows from the trees to be visible and similarly elongated. We see that on GT but not in Forza.

This whole race is like that - shadows are sparse and, when they do appear, the angle is often a little off.

For GT, what I think they're doing is rendering shadows real-time BUT the game does not have dynamic time of day switching due to the baked global illumination technique in use. AC Unity also used baked times of day. Horizon does as well, actually, but the developers found a way to smoothly transition between a handful of different pre-baked lighting conditions (which I guess could have worked in GT).

GT5 had real-time TOD changes but not any sort of GI system.

It's fascinating to see how the developers approached each problem.

I guess maybe if Polyphony didn't live in a bubble they could've shared information with Guerrilla.

 

[Synth]

I guess maybe if Polyphony didn't live in a bubble they could've shared information with Guerrilla.

Polyphony: How'd you get all that dynamic shit in your game?
Guerilla: We capped it to 30fps.
Polyphony: Holy shit, wow.

 

[jett]

Polyphony: How'd you get all that dynamic shit in your game?
Guerilla: We capped it to 30fps.
Polyphony: Holy shit, wow.

Did you even read what dark10x posted?

 

[Synth]

Did you even read what dark10x posted?

Yup, and my post was only intended as a joke, not as a dismissal (sometimes that doesn't carry over well in text).

But I think the framerate targets go a long towards explaining the compromises in these games. We know for a fact that Turn 10 and Playground Games share information, but that hardly results in Forza Motorsport's featuresets comin even close to matching Forza Horizon's.

This is the first GT in a long time that actually seems to do a good job at holding 60fps also.

 

[Space_nut]

I've noticed situations where a shadow is baked into an object coming from a larger object but then another object next to it will be lacking the appropriate shadow.

What's confusing me are the shadows in this shot. The sun is in roughly the same location and the car shadows are both elongated in the same direction. You'd expect shadows from the trees to be visible and similarly elongated. We see that on GT but not in Forza.

This whole race is like that - shadows are sparse and, when they do appear, the angle is often a little off.

For GT, what I think they're doing is rendering shadows real-time BUT the game does not have dynamic time of day switching due to the baked global illumination technique in use. AC Unity also used baked times of day. Horizon does as well, actually, but the developers found a way to smoothly transition between a handful of different pre-baked lighting conditions (which I guess could have worked in GT).

GT5 had real-time TOD changes but not any sort of GI system.

It's fascinating to see how the developers approached each problem.

There are objects in gts where the shadow is prebaked as well per belo

You can see the trees spin around but the shadows don't update in realtime

 

[benzy]

There are objects in gts where the shadow is prebaked as well per belo

You can see the trees spin around but the shadows don't update in realtime

Those aren't baked either. You can see the tree shadow cast move over to the tip of that tree canopy as it rotates in your example.

 

[dark10x]

Hmm, that's interesting. I can see what you mean, the car has a pronounced shadow so it must be in sunlight, but the tree shadows just aren't there.

Is this on console or PC you're comparing?

Using PC version with maximum details (no dynamic settings) at 4K.

There are objects in gts where the shadow is prebaked as well per belo

You can see the trees spin around but the shadows don't update in realtime

I'm not sure those are baked, rather, shadows might be cast from a fixed position of the tree plane. It would be even more distracting if the shadows rotated with the tree which is why I'm sure they implemented it that way.

Forza's shadows, being entirely baked, are much cleaner than GT. That's one benefit.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Using PC version with maximum details (no dynamic settings) at 4K.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm running the exact same settings (but with dynamic particle resolution since it's glitched on any other setting) but haven't noticed the effect you show in that Brands Hatch shot. I assume I've just never had that time of day come up before.

Those aren't baked either. You can see the tree shadow cast move over to the tip of that tree canopy as it rotates in your example.

I don't see the shadow actually moving. Looks like the shadow on the canopy area is part of the texture and it's simply rotating with the rest of the billboard/sprite. There is a part that looks like a moving shadow but from what I can see it's just the other tree clipping through.

 

[Space_nut]

Those aren't baked either. You can see the tree shadow cast move over to the tip of that tree canopy as it rotates in your example.

Shadows on ground don't move at all :/

 

[Anarion07]

I don't see the shadow actually moving. Looks like the shadow on the canopy area is part of the texture and it's simply rotating with the rest of the billboard/sprite. There is a part that looks like a moving shadow but from what I can see it's just the other tree clipping through.

It's definitely moving. Canopy, right part. No other tree clipping through.

Shadows on ground don't move at all :/

Why would they?
The camera is moving, not the sun.

edit: oh, it's space nut.

 

[Space_nut]

It's definitely moving. Canopy, right part. No other tree clipping through.

That's just self shadowing. Shadows on ground don't move at all

If a lighting system is truly real time it would update any movements in the environment. Gts seems to take a snapshot of the environment and doesn't calculate any changes at all in run time

What res is gts running at on pro natively?

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

Yup, and my post was only intended as a joke, not as a dismissal (sometimes that doesn't carry over well in text).

But I think the framerate targets go a long towards explaining the compromises in these games. We know for a fact that Turn 10 and Playground Games share information, but that hardly results in Forza Motorsport's featuresets comin even close to matching Forza Horizon's.

This is the first GT in a long time that actually seems to do a good job at holding 60fps also.

This is my thinking too, as long as there's a 1080/60 Xbox One version we won't see a full dynamic lighting solution. I don't think anyone is really going to cry if F8 is 900p or thereabouts to achieve it though.

 

[Anarion07]

That's just self shadowing. Shadows on ground don't move at all

The person I quoted said the shadows don't move at all and are part of the texture.
I said they are moving, which they are. I never made any other assumptions.

 

[TheAdmiester]

The person I quoted said the shadows don't move at all and are part of the texture.
I said they are moving, which they are. I never made any other assumptions.

And you're right, I was looking ever so slightly off at a different part. Just glanced what I assume you're talking about and I can see them moving.

This is my thinking too, as long as there's a 1080/60 Xbox One version we won't see a full dynamic lighting solution. I don't think anyone is really going to cry if F8 is 900p or thereabouts to achieve it though.

Considering how old the base Xbox One will be by that point, I really hope they do that, I reckon it's the only thing holding them back from fully dynamic. I doubt they will though because of the faux-outrage that'd come from it.

 

[rodrigolfp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVtw8CEhE6M

I don't know if this guy can be trusted on what he is saying, but in his video the reflections on the hood looks like low refresh rate?

 

[Qronicle]

For people wondering why the tree shadows in GTS aren't moving, when the leaves clearly are: the leaves always face the player (to hide the fact that they're flat). The same is done for creating the shadow, only here the (imaginary) tree is facing the sun. Since the sun isn't moving, the shadows don't either.

Edit:

See picture on the left

 

[thelastword]

Still find it strange that PD didn't talk about weather all that much, making a lot think it has no weather at all.

Hopefully this can be updated to allow rain on all tracks eventually.

Knowing PD, they are probably doing something special with weather. I think it will be dynamic....

Driveclub sounds better than both like you said and I also agree that GTS sounds closer to Driveclub and even Asseto Corsa than Forza does.

Absolutely, DC is ridiculous when it comes to sound, but GTS is right there too, with awesome gear and compression sounds.....Like I said in another post in this thread, I think GTS sound is quite nuanced, there's alot of details you hear in GTS because the engine does not roar over everything like in some other racers.....It pieces everything well together and you hear quite a bit....especially other cars in proximity,... ahead of you and behind etc...

For people wondering why the tree shadows in GTS aren't moving, when the leaves clearly are: the leaves always face the player (to hide the fact that they're flat). The same is done for creating the shadow, only here the (imaginary) tree is facing the sun. Since the sun isn't moving, the shadows don't either.

Edit:

See picture on the left

Thanks.....

 

[M52B28]

This thread is strange. It's either we talk about shadows or trees.

 

[rodrigolfp]

So strange talking about parts of the games graphics on a graphics face-off thread, Wow.

 

[benzy]

That's just self shadowing. Shadows on ground don't move at all

If a lighting system is truly real time it would update any movements in the environment. Gts seems to take a snapshot of the environment and doesn't calculate any changes at all in run time

Shadows on ground don't move at all :/

See Dark's post. It's the same in Driveclub, which we know is fully dynamic and real-time. Also, if an object has real-time self-shadows, why wouldn't that object's shadow also be casted onto the environment?

 

[Gestault]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVtw8CEhE6M

I don't know if this guy can be trusted on what he is saying, but in his video the reflections on the hood looks like low refresh rate?

I was almost positive different elements reflect at different rates. I noticed it from my own playtime, but I didn't want to overstate it without actual video evidence (and the video capture on PS4 is 30 fps anyway).

Check out the time-code here: The fencing/pillars reflected in the hood (right side) look to be refreshing at a lower rate. It's not particularly subtle. The sky "layer" seems to be full refresh rate though. Make sure your playback is one of the 60 fps options. I'd grab a gif, but it would be pointless with the framerate cap.

 

[eso76]

Still find it strange that PD didn't talk about weather all that much, making a lot think it has no weather at all.

Hopefully this can be updated to allow rain on all tracks eventually.

What, so there is rain after all ??
What the hell PD..

Although it's only in this event from what I've seen.
Only one car on the track.
That isn't reflected on wet tarmac or water puddles, either.
Hmmmm... Nah, with all those limitations I seriously doubt they'd be able to make it rain on other tracks.

Is that fog from one of the trailers in ? That looked great

 

[TheAdmiester]

@dark10x: I see you've mentioned a few times that it seems to you that GTS has some kind of GI system or fakery going on. Do you have any shots that give this away in your opinion?

 

[rodrigolfp]

See Dark's post. It's the same in Driveclub, which we know is fully dynamic and real-time. Also, if an object has real-time self-shadows, why wouldn't that object's shadow also be casted onto the environment?

The shadows are not rotating while the leaves are.

I was almost positive different elements reflect at different rates. I noticed it from my own playtime, but I didn't want to overstate it without actual video evidence (and the video capture on PS4 is 30 fps anyway).

Check out the time-code here: The fencing/pillars reflected in the hood (right side) look to be refreshing at a lower rate. It's not particularly subtle. The sky "later" seems to be full refresh rate though. Make sure your playback is one of the 60 fps options. I'd grab a gif, but it would be pointless with the framerate cap.

Exactly at that part that screamed low refresh rate.

 

[eso76]

Come on they wouldn't use sprites to cast shadows anyway.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

What, so there is rain after all ??
What the hell PD..

Although it's only in this event from what I've seen.
Only one car on the track.
That isn't reflected on wet tarmac or water puddles, either.
Hmmmm... Nah, with all those limitations I seriously doubt they'd be able to make it rain on other tracks.

Is that fog from one of the trailers in ? That looked great

Yeah it's limited at the moment but nothing saying it can't be added to more tracks in future updates. DriveClub added weather to the whole game with no problem.

The fog was in one of the VR gameplay clips too.

Found it. Race starts about 4 mins into the video. You can see light fog on the track and in the background it's foggy.

https://youtu.be/otYyKOqPPV8

 

[l2ounD]

I've noticed situations where a shadow is baked into an object coming from a larger object but then another object next to it will be lacking the appropriate shadow.

What's confusing me are the shadows in this shot. The sun is in roughly the same location and the car shadows are both elongated in the same direction. You'd expect shadows from the trees to be visible and similarly elongated. We see that on GT but not in Forza.

This whole race is like that - shadows are sparse and, when they do appear, the angle is often a little off.

For GT, what I think they're doing is rendering shadows real-time BUT the game does not have dynamic time of day switching due to the baked global illumination technique in use. AC Unity also used baked times of day. Horizon does as well, actually, but the developers found a way to smoothly transition between a handful of different pre-baked lighting conditions (which I guess could have worked in GT).

GT5 had real-time TOD changes but not any sort of GI system.

It's fascinating to see how the developers approached each problem.

Had a similar discussion on this pic wonder where the lighting information was coming from

 

[benzy]

The shadows are not rotating while the leaves are.

Right, and that gif is of Driveclub, which has real-time shadows that transitions as the time progresses. The shadows not moving with the rotating billboards doesn't mean it's baked.

 

[DD]

Yeah it's limited at the moment but nothing saying it can't be added to more tracks in future updates. DriveClub added weather to the whole game with no problem.

The fog was in one of the VR gameplay clips too.

Found it. Race starts about 4 mins into the video. You can see light fog on the track and in the background it's foggy.

https://youtu.be/otYyKOqPPV8

But Driveclub was designed to be a 60 FPS game, then they scaled it back to 30 and that left a lot of room for improvements.

 

[Afrikan]

See Dark's post. It's the same in Driveclub, which we know is fully dynamic and real-time. Also, if an object has real-time self-shadows, why wouldn't that object's shadow also be casted onto the environment?

That's almost kinda of creepy.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

But Driveclub was designed to be a 60 FPS game, then they scaled it back to 30 and that left a lot of room for improvements.

Maybe but PD have got rain already in the game, so the engine can do it, it's just a case of adding it to the other tracks.

Yes it's probably a little more technical than that but it's something that should be possible, with it being in the game already.

 

[rashbeep]

i was watching the GB quick look for GT:S, there seems to be motion blur enabled in race when running the game in 1080p mode on the pro? can anyone confirm?

 

[flipswitch]

Anyone else notice the A.I cars refresh rate for environment mapping is 30fps? Your car is at 60fps.

 

[Gestault]

Anyone else notice the A.I cars refresh rate for environment mapping is 30fps? Your car is at 60fps.

Yeah, I felt like I was crazy playing it when I was hearing that supposedly reflections ran at the full game refresh rate. Seeing 60 fps footage in video reviews, it's clear as day (and as I pointed out earlier, not all reflections on your own car are 60 fps). The footage here from the Inside Sim Racing shows it plainly on the red car to the front-right of the player. In their wrap-up, they don't pull ANY punches on how poor the reflections look.

Where did this idea that the reflections are 60 fps come from? Playing the beta, I was seeing this stuff already. Were people just not paying attention?

 

[flipswitch]

Good find. I must’ve missed it in the beta, but yesterday driving on the Tokyo track was the first time I saw it and yeah, the quality is a bit poor.

 

[potatohead]

See Dark's post. It's the same in Driveclub, which we know is fully dynamic and real-time. Also, if an object has real-time self-shadows, why wouldn't that object's shadow also be casted onto the environment?

Yep same in drive club

 

[Inf3cted_b3ast]

Idk if i should keep posting these in here but I can't find anywhere else to post them... Here's another sound comparison.
Real life vs GTS vs AC vs PCars vs FM7 Porsche 911 GT3 RS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXuv2tXHo9Q

 

[MaLDo]

So now that I'm comparing Forza 7 and GTS, I see that Forza still has baked shadows. Is that right? Shadows in GT appear fully real-time and relative to the sun position. They also flicker and break-up somewhat, unfortunately.

...but Forza's lighting is static, does not line up with sun position or properly cast on objects. Only car shadows appear dynamic. For some reason, I was thinking real time of day changes would mean real-time world shadows but I guess not. :\

With this screenshots I was comparing pre-release footage and missing shadows versus Forza 6. Everything seems backed and sometimes in a wrong way.

 

[dark10x]

@dark10x: I see you've mentioned a few times that it seems to you that GTS has some kind of GI system or fakery going on. Do you have any shots that give this away in your opinion?

Aside from my own experience, I think this gif gives a good idea of how realistic the lighting can be.

I suspect it because 1) the lighting implementation is exceptional and seems to take light bounce into account (still examining that, though) and 2) the fact that all times of day are divided up into separate selections.

Since GT5 and 6 support time of day transitions and GTS also features fully real-time shadows, I can't help but suspect that it's due to the pre-calculated track lighting. Each track might have light data for different times of day but, because it is pre-calculated, they weren't able to transition between them.

With this screenshots I was comparing pre-release footage and missing shadows versus Forza 6. Everything seems backed and sometimes in a wrong way.

Right? I could have sworn shadows were more prolific in Forza 6 but hadn't gone back to check. You can see things like posts and the fences have shadows but trees almost never do.

 

[c0de]

With this screenshots I was comparing pre-release footage and missing shadows versus Forza 6. Everything seems backed and sometimes in a wrong way.

If the shadows are baked, why remove them at all?

 

[dark10x]

If the shadows are baked, why remove them at all?

They still have to be generated (just not in real-time).

There is some sort of dynamic time of day in Forza 7, right? Hard to tell since races are short and you cannot select the time of day but maybe this was a change made in service of that? If they had clearly defined, long shadows it would look strange when the sun position shifts. Still examining it.

 

[dr guildo]

i was watching the GB quick look for GT:S, there seems to be motion blur enabled in race when running the game in 1080p mode on the pro? can anyone confirm?

Why should it be since any dev knows that the more the framerate is high, the less the moblur is efficient... when you select perf mode in GTS, replays run @60fps, only dof is remaining, moblur is off...

 

[c0de]

They still have to be generated (just not in real-time).

There is some sort of dynamic time of day in Forza 7, right? Hard to tell since races are short and you cannot select the time of day but maybe this was a change made in service of that? If they had clearly defined, long shadows it would look strange when the sun position shifts. Still examining it.

Yeah, that would mean they would need to swap that dynamically which they potentially won't do as they would also had to reside in memory.
But I think it looks worse now with shadows clearly missing.

 

[dark10x]

Why should it be since any dev knows that the more the framerate is high, the less the moblur is efficient... when you select perf mode in GTS, replays run @60fps, only dof is remaining, moblur is off...

This is not true, motion blur is absolutely enabled in the 60fps replays. That's what makes them look so incredible.

 

[dark10x]

Another question - does Forza actually have real-time time of day changing? It seems like it just randomizes its time of day which isn't that different from GT's selection menu for the same thing.

It sure doesn't seem like the time is actually changing while racing, at least.

 

[JackAubrey]

Another question - does Forza actually have real-time time of day changing? It seems like it just randomizes its time of day which isn't that different from GT's selection menu for the same thing.

It sure doesn't seem like the time is actually changing while racing, at least.

Yes the time of day does change during racing. A full 24 hours isn't possible in a race.

But you can see night turn into sunrise, sun setting to darkness, afternoon to sunset etc.

It is definitely not static like GTS.

 

[c0de]

Another question - does Forza actually have real-time time of day changing? It seems like it just randomizes its time of day which isn't that different from GT's selection menu for the same thing.

It sure doesn't seem like the time is actually changing while racing, at least.

What do you mean with realtime? According to system time? Or progressing like the RTC does but with an offset?

 

[eso76]

Another question - does Forza actually have real-time time of day changing? It seems like it just randomizes its time of day which isn't that different from GT's selection menu for the same thing.

It sure doesn't seem like the time is actually changing while racing, at least.

Dark, you haven't been keeping up with the thread !

Tod in Fm7 only changes between dusk to night or night to dawn, so i guess it just switches from "shadows on" to "shadows off"

Or even overcast to clear evening, also a situation where you have no shadows -> shadows

 

[robotrock]

Why should it be since any dev knows that the more the framerate is high, the less the moblur is efficient... when you select perf mode in GTS, replays run @60fps, only dof is remaining, moblur is off...

What are the trade offs in enabling perf mode for GT: Sport?