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Next Gen Switch supposedly use 5nm Nvidia Tegra (Samsung Foundry)
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Rumor Hardware
Imtjnotu
Member
4k in docked yes or with DLSS to fix the image on a TV would be fine.
but 4k in handheld mode is a horrible waste. a 1440P screen would be perfect
Klosshufvud
Member
4TF when Steam Deck is pushing 25W just to deliver 1.6TF....
I'd temper my expectations guys. Nintendo will opt for a smaller design and smaller development costs. So if Deck has a SoC power budget of 15W, expect half of that for Switch 2.
I don't understand. Wasn't the consensus that BC would be done in software?
Comandr
Member
I love all of these tech speculation threads. It’s fun to think about future tech and how a given company will undoubtedly fail to meet individual peoples hopes and desires.
I just want the fuckin thing to be announced so everyone will shut up about it and I can watch the world burn when we see what it can (and can’t) do.
I just want the fuckin thing to be announced so everyone will shut up about it and I can watch the world burn when we see what it can (and can’t) do.
dano1
A Sheep
I only use mine docked. 1440. Would be plenty for handheld
tusharngf
Member
i think they are targetting 800p or 720p with that device
Mr.Phoenix
Member
4K? Are we on some cheap drugs?
Please look at the steam deck. Or the Aya Neo....
and those are 1080p machines. And one of them costs over $1k.
Please look at the steam deck. Or the Aya Neo....
and those are 1080p machines. And one of them costs over $1k.
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
I can live with 2tf in portable mode if they actually do something for play on the TV that enhances the output. I'm totally fine paying an extra $200-300 for a dock if it means actually boosting the performance beyond 1080p.
Gamerfan81
Member
Pretty sure that guy was just shitposting.
I changed my Mind, I went to Shaqs bug chicken today.
Ps5 pro would be Shaqs big chicken.
ToTTenTranz
Banned
Ergh.. why were there people following this guy?
Haint
Member
To be fair Steamdeck will be nearing or exceeding 2 years old by the time this launches, but you're right, there's no way Nintendo hardware's going to exceed it. A realistic best case scenario would be performance on par with Steamdeck. Nintendo are misers and >90% of their audience doesn't give a flying fuck about graphics horsepower, they're going to build the cheapest and weakest hardware they can get away with.
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I think the rumor is false because I still think the Switch 2's next chip may already be shipping in the new Jetson Orin Nano embedded PC, which coincidentally went on sale today and got its first preview at TomsHardware:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidias-new-orin-nano-developer-kit-like-a-raspberry-pi-for-ai
It's designed to replace the previous Jetson Nano devkit which uses the same Tegra X1 that went into the Switch.
Jetson Nano -> Switch
Jetson Orin Nano -> Switch 2
Jetson Orin Nano Jetson Nano CPU 6-core Arm Cortex-A78AE v8.2 64-bit CPU Quad-core ARM Cortex-A57 MPCore processor 1.5MB L2 + 4MB L3 GPU Nvidia Ampere architecture with 1024 Nvidia CUDA cores and Nvidia Maxwell architecture with 128 Nvidia CUDA cores 32 Tensor cores Memory 8GB 128-bit LPDDR5 4 GB 64-bit LPDDR4, 1600MHz 25.6 GB/s 68 GB/s Storage Micro SD 16 GB eMMC 5.1 NVMe M.2 via Carrier Board Micro SD Power 7W to 15W (9-19V) 20W (Max 5V at 4 Amps) Dimensions 69 x 45 x 21 mm 69.6 x 45 x 20 mm
Jetson Orin Nano Jetson Nano Camera 2x MIPI CSI-2 22-pin Camera Connectors 12 lanes (3x4 or 4x2) MIPI CSI-2 D-PHY 1.1 M.2 Key M x4 PCIe Gen 3 x2 PCIe Gen3 M.2 Key E PCIe (x1), USB 2.0, UART, I2S, and I2C 1 x USB 4 x USB 3.2 Gen2 4x USB 3.0 1 x Type C for debug and device mode 1 x USB 2.0 Micro-B Networking Gigabit Ethernet Gigabit Ethernet RTL8822CE 802.11ac PCIe Wireless Network Adapter Display DisplayPort 1.2 HDMI 2.0 and eDP 1.4
Even if the GPU only works at 625MHz, it should still be an enormous upgrade over the Switch, and it might be close to the Steam Deck in performance.
Jetson Nano is more credible than that TX2 nonsense, but it's not impossible to see Nvidia take another route for the CPU.
Orin is optimized for AI and self drive, this means part of that architecture could be useless for a gaming device, so wasted silicon.
At the same time, Nvidia can use commercial Samsung chips like they did with Tegra X1.
GymWolf
Member
What better innovation than not be forced to play at 30 fps (or unstable 60) at 1998 era resolutions?
They already have the hybrid console gimmick going on, they don't need another gimmick on top of that, they need some fucking power.
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
No. If it not broken don’t fix it. Being hybrid is innovative enough. What they need is more power + Better battery.
Daniel_Mallorca1985
Member
ToTTenTranz
Banned
This is not the same Orin from 2021. It's a different, probably much smaller chip.
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/next...samsung-foundry.1654441/page-2#post-267745045
Thick Thighs Save Lives
NeoGAF's Physical Games Advocate Extraordinaire
You have to keep in mind that Arm cores are much more energy efficient that those Zen 2 cores that are in the steamdeck.
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supernova8
Banned
Yeah I'd happily buy an eGPU dock for maximum $200 if it was GTX 1660 ish performance, which is of course still a major leap above what power the Switch currently offers. For $200 I cannot imagine getting anything better (especially with Nvidia involved). I just want to be able to play BOTW on my Switch (on my TV) at 1080p60 without having to use an emulator. Should be doable.
Also goes without saying that whatever they release, it's not giving us 4K visuals unless we're talking basic 2D games (like Octopussy Travel Agents or whatever that game is called).
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its going to use DLSS
https://www.tomshardware.com/reference/what-is-nvidia-dlss
Also Like I said before, important 3rd parties influenced the design of the switch.
"Apparently, Nintendo reached out to various developers when it was creating the Nintendo Switch in order to get feedback on the console. It was during this process that Capcom and other developers pushed Nintendo to increase the Switch's RAM to at least 4GB, which is what the console launched with earlier this month.
The reason why Capcom wanted Nintendo to increase the Switch's RAM is simple. Capcom was in the midst of producing its RE Engine at the time, which powers Resident Evil 7, and it wanted Nintendo to create a console with enough memory to support the engine. It seems as though Nintendo took Capcom's advice, and while we have yet to see an announcement that Resident Evil 7 is coming to the Switch, we now know that it is at least a possibility.
Even though the Switch is technically powerful enough to support the RE Engine, Capcom has yet to actually port it to the device. Capcom has been struggling to make the engine work with both the Switch's portable and docked states, which could explain why we have yet to see any major Capcom games announced for the new console outside of Ultra Street Fighter 2: The Final Challengers.
https://gamerant.com/nintendo-switch-capcom-ram/#:~:text=The reason why Capcom wanted,memory to support the engine."
If Capcom wants the switch 2 to be able to run RE4 engine in 4k then Nintendo will make it happen. I cannot stress how important Monster hunter and a few other 3rd parties are to Nintendo's japan market.
Monster hunter rise uses the RE engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RE_Engine#:~:text=RE Engine, also known as,Rise and Street Fighter 6.
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StereoVsn
Gold Member
Couldn't they use AI silicon for DLSS and other AI enhancing purposes?
OuterLimits
Member
Perhaps, but I don't have much concern for the "few years left" comment. They will say stuff like that until 5 minutes before the successor is actually announced since they want the Switch to sell. Plus, I imagine the Switch will still get some support after the Switch 2 launches.(prob far less than PS4 still got after PS5 launched though)
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
Switch 2/ whatever next-gen system Nintendo makes, will not compete on the level of Steam Deck. I think most people know that, based on how Nintendo approaches hardware design and where they like to price their hardware at, but maybe people think because it's a next-gen handheld it will be like a Nintendo Steam Deck. But it just won't be that. Compared to Nintendo Switch, which is 2015 mobile architecture, it will surely be a generational leap compared to their own hardware up to this point. But comparing it to Steam Deck I think will be at best an apples & oranges comparison.
I think there’s a ceiling for Nintendo hardware and it’s $399, so if they’re trying to put in faster storage, such as a mini SSD, that’s going to come at the expense of an OLED screen being in the new system, or at the expense of a huge leap in performance. Maybe it’s only x3 more powerful than Switch instead of x5 more powerful. Take your pick. But it’s all about priorities and what features need to be in the new system to justify a next-gen platform, vs trying to make a high-end enthusiast/performant device like Steam Deck.
There will always be competitors with more powerful devices on the market, and that will never change, but rarely is the most powerful device the most popular. Nintendo’s proven that over and over again across handheld and console.
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tkscz
Member
I said this in my previous post as back in January Nvidia canceled the Ampere+ line and was only going with Lovelace, most likely due to Samsung's terrible chip yields.
Nvidia still has a contract with Nintendo until 2027 so most likely they'll just use Thor (Lovelace based Tegra), but this does mean the Switch will be going for a bit longer than it should. Sales numbers are already dropping and Nvidia themselves said they are not longer producing X1 boards.
I think the rumor is false because I still think the Switch 2's next chip may already be shipping in the new Jetson Orin Nano embedded PC, which coincidentally went on sale today and got its first preview at TomsHardware:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidias-new-orin-nano-developer-kit-like-a-raspberry-pi-for-ai
It's designed to replace the previous Jetson Nano devkit which uses the same Tegra X1 that went into the Switch.
Jetson Nano -> Switch
Jetson Orin Nano -> Switch 2
Jetson Orin Nano Jetson Nano CPU 6-core Arm Cortex-A78AE v8.2 64-bit CPU Quad-core ARM Cortex-A57 MPCore processor 1.5MB L2 + 4MB L3 GPU Nvidia Ampere architecture with 1024 Nvidia CUDA cores and Nvidia Maxwell architecture with 128 Nvidia CUDA cores 32 Tensor cores Memory 8GB 128-bit LPDDR5 4 GB 64-bit LPDDR4, 1600MHz 25.6 GB/s 68 GB/s Storage Micro SD 16 GB eMMC 5.1 NVMe M.2 via Carrier Board Micro SD Power 7W to 15W (9-19V) 20W (Max 5V at 4 Amps) Dimensions 69 x 45 x 21 mm 69.6 x 45 x 20 mm
Jetson Orin Nano Jetson Nano Camera 2x MIPI CSI-2 22-pin Camera Connectors 12 lanes (3x4 or 4x2) MIPI CSI-2 D-PHY 1.1 M.2 Key M x4 PCIe Gen 3 x2 PCIe Gen3 M.2 Key E PCIe (x1), USB 2.0, UART, I2S, and I2C 1 x USB 4 x USB 3.2 Gen2 4x USB 3.0 1 x Type C for debug and device mode 1 x USB 2.0 Micro-B Networking Gigabit Ethernet Gigabit Ethernet RTL8822CE 802.11ac PCIe Wireless Network Adapter Display DisplayPort 1.2 HDMI 2.0 and eDP 1.4
Even if the GPU only works at 625MHz, it should still be an enormous upgrade over the Switch, and it might be close to the Steam Deck in performance.
The issue with that is the Switch doesn't use the Jetson Nano, it uses the full X1 AGX board. Not only that but the Orin has two AGX models, of which the cancelled Switch Pro was using the weaker of the two.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Imtjnotu
Member
I use mine on my C2 and that little hdmi adapter that cleans up aliasing worked miraclesI only use mine docked. 1440. Would be plenty for handheld
Mr.Phoenix
Member
While not specifically directed to you, I see there is a lot of posters here with very questionable knowledge of the tech underpinning these systems.
So I am not being a competitive ass, I will address what you have said here.
Yes, ARM cores use less power. But there is a reason for that. ARM is a RISC processor. X86 is a CISC processor. ARM cores will do one instruction per cycle. X86 can handle multiple and/or complex instructions per cycle. That is why ARM processors use less power. At the same clock speed, an X86 chip can handle code multiple orders of magnitude more complex an with far more ease than an ARM chip.
Jinzo Prime
Member
I strongly want a clamshell design for a new Switch Lite.
Zannegan
Member
Man, I was so excited when I clicked on this thread hoping for some new speculation, but that update killed it dead before I got here.
Peripherals only ever sell a fraction of what the base console does. An eGPU that can't function on its own would be a very expensive peripheral, especially for those who don't yet have a Switch. Its audience would be limited to current Switch owners and those who are willing to shell out the equivalent of a PS5/XSX to buy both at the same time. I don't see it selling any better than those drop-in expansion modules for Sega systems back in the day.
But, if you were to make a modestly powerful Tegra console that ALSO functioned as a super-dock, you'd have a much better value proposition. New customers could just get the console, or both if they liked. Switch owners would get their upgrade plus some additional functionality, like the wireless two-screen gaming you mention (which I don't think you can do with just an eGPU), or even the reverse: beaming console gameplay to the first gen Switch, or two, or even more. You could even beam console gameplay to tablets and phones. Lots of interesting possibilities there.
I like the idea of powerful hardware in a "dock," but I feel like it needs to go a half-step further than just an eGPU.
Peripherals only ever sell a fraction of what the base console does. An eGPU that can't function on its own would be a very expensive peripheral, especially for those who don't yet have a Switch. Its audience would be limited to current Switch owners and those who are willing to shell out the equivalent of a PS5/XSX to buy both at the same time. I don't see it selling any better than those drop-in expansion modules for Sega systems back in the day.
But, if you were to make a modestly powerful Tegra console that ALSO functioned as a super-dock, you'd have a much better value proposition. New customers could just get the console, or both if they liked. Switch owners would get their upgrade plus some additional functionality, like the wireless two-screen gaming you mention (which I don't think you can do with just an eGPU), or even the reverse: beaming console gameplay to the first gen Switch, or two, or even more. You could even beam console gameplay to tablets and phones. Lots of interesting possibilities there.
Kataploom
Gold Member
But it was when it released, though, at least the best possible low power chip in the market... That year some other better chips started to get available but they were too expensive.
It will be funny if Nintendo can pull a Series S-like Switch and it starts becoming the lower common denominator.
NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt
Biggest Trails Stan
All I want is
1080p 30 - 60 FPS Docked/Undocked
XBONE/PS4 TFLOPS
8GB Ram
1080p 30 - 60 FPS Docked/Undocked
XBONE/PS4 TFLOPS
8GB Ram
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Dude, don't underestimate Piccolo, brother finally got a new transformation power up in the new movie:
I'm talking about instuctions in the CPU cores, not GPU. Latest Nvidia GPU had their tensor cores to implement DLSS.
And talkin about DLSS, I think there is a (small) chance to see DLSS implemented via cuda cores and not tensor cores. The problem with tensor cores is you need a lot of them, and the GPU with less tensor cores is the RTX2060, 1920 Cuda cores and 240 TC. I don't know if a Switch 2 will have all that cores and how many of them are needed to do a proper upscale. Nvida can use them or strip them to reduce the size of the chip and implement the DLSS with normal cores, like DLSS1. Who knows, just speculations.
alucard0712_rus
Banned
IMO Nintendo will use something like that. Very cheap and fits their needs. No 4K and it's better for it.
Tegra X2
Nvidia's Tegra X2 (codenamed "Parker") features Nvidia's own custom general-purpose ARMv8-compatible core Denver 2 as well as code-named Pascal graphics processing core with GPGPU support. The chips are made using FinFET process technology using TSMC's 16 nm FinFET+ manufacturing process.
Imtjnotu
Member
for this tho TSMC is not doing large bulk orders on 16nm. alot of their stuff is built around 7nm now and 4nm for the more high end SoC's.
i doubt we get any SoC larger than 7nm
supernova8
Banned
Was with you until you said 4K. It's not happening lol. 1080p upscaled to 4K cool but not actual 4K.
Tams
Member
We aren't going to get anything powerful from from Nintendo like that. It's simply too far above the price Nintendo like to sell their hardware at.
An eGPU dock is the only way I see that happening. Nintendo get to target their usual audience, but those who want more power get it too, for a price.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
Good point on CPU vs GPU AI hardware, but hell, we do have AI specific hardware silicon in phones now days, whether Google's Tensor design with AI specific TPU module or Qualcomm's offering.
So got to think it should be possible for Nvidia to allocate specialized AI hardware in a modern SoC offering. That said, it's Nintendo so they will want something cheap so who knows.
Daniel_Mallorca1985
Member
coffinbirth
Member
This is a very outmoded mindset.
ARM isn't really RISC these days.
There are variable number ops all over the place, variable length instructions, instructions that read/write multiple registers, etc.
Clean addressing and optimal pipelines make ARM punch way above their perceived weight and has nothing to do with this unless Nvidia/Nintendo make an OoO platform, which they obviously won't.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
No. RISC is RISC and CISC is CISC. Can pipeline streaming and software optimization make ARM perform similarly to x86? Yes. Would it make it easy to do? No.
Simply put, its really easy to make something designed for ARM run on x86, doing it the other way around... isn't. This problem is exacerbated when you consider that where they are porting from is/are hardware that is orders of magnitude more performant to begin with.
Just look at what is out there. The steam deck is a 1.6TF (boost mode) handheld. Now, while don't even believe Nintendowi make hardware that powerful, but lets say they do. That's already a 8TF+ data in GPU power alone compared to the 4K twins. And this is just talking about the GPU.
Raploz
Member
No one is writing games in Assembly nowadays. Everything is abstracted. Your C++ game engine will run just fine on ARM as it does on x86-64. The compiler does the whole job.
ARM can be as fast as x86-64 nowadays, just look at Apple's offerings and how they're competing toe-to-toe with Intel and AMD in performance. Heck, even servers are using ARM nowadays and they get competitive performance against their x86 counterparts. This is not the 1990's anymore. ARM cores have come a long way.
A single instruction in CISC can take multiple clock cycles to complete because it's more complex, while in RISC an instruction only takes a single clock cycle because it only does a single thing. You need more instructions to do the same thing in RISC but you can execute them faster, use less transistors and have more space for general purpose registers. Since you need less transistors to feed, you need less power.
RISC cores can and do perform multiple operations per clock due to Pipelining, the same way as x86 (which nowadays translates their instructions internally to RISC to be able to do that).
Sources: https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/soco/projects/risc/risccisc/
https://www.d.umn.edu/~gshute/arch/pipelining.xhtml
No one is expecting Switch 2 to run games at 4k and at the same settings as PS5 and Xbox Series consoles. As such, it's fine if it isn't as fast as the big consoles. The Steam Deck can play almost all games out there, just at 720p and lower settings.
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daveonezero
Banned
Exactly and full backwards compatible and carry over of eshop digital libraries.