Oh man, you're so right
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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
- Thread starter Snakeyes
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Oh man, you're so right
Guys, I just realized.
I just realized.
Seeing how Kid Icarus actually has stable, functional netcode and cool online modes... do you realize...
...do you realize...
That it means that we'll probably get a very compelling and functional online feature set come next Smash Bros.? That you'll finally, probably, be able to lag-lessly smash a bro. far away from where you are?
Whoa.
I just realized.
Seeing how Kid Icarus actually has stable, functional netcode and cool online modes... do you realize...
...do you realize...
That it means that we'll probably get a very compelling and functional online feature set come next Smash Bros.? That you'll finally, probably, be able to lag-lessly smash a bro. far away from where you are?
Whoa.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Well, no, the only one of those characters you listed that I would personally be able to rationalize after the fact is an Advance Wars character, because I recognize that as an important series. Golden Sun and Sin and Punishment would not only be the least significant series in the game with a playable character, but they would also feel like "forced" inclusions -- put in the game only because there aren't any truly deserving characters left.
Every single character in Smash Bros. history (besides the Melee clones) makes sense to me -- this has nothing to do with looking at the roster "after the fact." Retro characters and third-party characters are sort of their own monster, but there seems to be a very homogenized process to the selection of modern Nintendo characters. It's taken three games for me to pick up on it, but I'm very comfortable saying that characters like Isaac or Saki aren't going to be playable. People fight me on this because they like those characters, but I truly believe the argument against them is sound. Sakurai has explicitly stated in two different interviews that Animal Crossing and Pikmin are the only post-N64 series that he feels are worthy of playable characters. Pray tell, if two back-to-back Golden Sun games weren't enough to warrant Isaac a spot in Brawl, then do you really think a poorly-selling third game starring a completely different character is somehow going to be the impetus to push Sakurai over the edge and rush to put Isaac in the game? I don't know, maybe I'm insane for not seeing it.
With all of that said, I'd have no trouble saying that I was wrong if any of these characters gets in, and I am most certainly going to look back at these posts as the roster gets revealed. Admitting defeat isn't something that bothers me. We're still getting a new Smash Bros. game no matter what, so I couldn't care less what some of you might think about my opinion.
so what you're saying is that I should buy the 3DS version
sixteen-bit
Member
Non-slideshow smash bros would be neat.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Problem is that that sentiment is highly subjective. Notice how despite ROB being a historical character some people still see him as a forced inclusion?
Oh, of course it's subjective; I'm speaking only for myself. I've never seen R.O.B. as a forced inclusion. What I'm trying to say is that since I personally recognize characters like R.O.B. and Mr. Game & Watch as sensible roster additions then I feel more comfortable in my own roster prediction methods versus those of people throwing names like Shulk and Dillon around as shoo-ins.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Smoking Miyamoto
B: CIGARETTE TO THE FACE
Sideways B: ASH CLOUD
Down B: LIGHTS UP
Up B: GETS HIGH BRO
Final Smash: everyone dies of lung cancer
ScraftyDevil
Banned
So, apparently Sakurai was spotted at Platinum Games' office today.
Bayonetta/Jack/Revengeance Raiden confirmed for SSB4?
Bayonetta/Jack/Revengeance Raiden confirmed for SSB4?
He actually tweeted about it himself, so I don't think it has anything to do with Smash Bros. -- he wouldn't give it away like that. He's made a ton of tweets over the months/years about visiting various game studios.
Professor Beef
Banned
You're praising Nintendo for doing something that they should've done a generation ago. I'll believe this so-called "compelling and functional online feature" for Smash 4 when I'm actually experiencing it.
So how about Scrafty as a playable character in SSB4, a wild specimen incorporating one or two Scragglies into his specials, like a gang leader -- quite appropriate, with the gangsta theme (shed skin resembling a hoodie and baggy pants), and the 'dex entries saying he commands respect from the rank and file with his head crest. So yeah: Scraggly attacks, and a lot of good ol'-fashioned Scrafty head-butts, complete with baseball bat THWOK sound effect.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
I'm all for it, but he has such a diverse movepool that his Scragglings would probably only be used for his gangbeat-style Final Smash.
You know Scrafty better than me: What kind of moves do you see him having? Don't worry about giving me specific B, Up B, etc -- just describe the kinds of moves that could serve as the basis for his specials, etc.
RawkHawk2010
Member
Drain Punch, Crunch, Hi Jump Kick, Bulk Up, Dragon Dance...
...and Shed Skin could be used for some kind of awesome counter/dodge move.
...and Shed Skin could be used for some kind of awesome counter/dodge move.
yessss
Yeah, it would have to be pretty subtle for it to work. Although if there is someone who could handle it well, they probably could. Gotta look up some TvC videos to see this, though
TvC basically just plays the characters theme the moment they switch in. It doesn't even blend nicely and always starts from the beginning.
In some ways I'm glad they were forced to have original compositions for the western localisation since it meant that feature was removed.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
74 pages without any real news or info. Bravo, gentlemen.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Moves most commonly associated with his family are Head Smash/Headbutt, Hi-Jump Kick, Crunch, Leer/Glare, and Focus Blast (because of the anime).
Other notable moves that could be turned into moves are Drain Punch, Focus Punch, the elemental punches, Stone Edge, Dragon Claw, Dragon Dance, Brick Break, Low Kick, Rest, and Bulk Up.
They could also incorporate his abilities, Moxie and Shed Skin, into the character's playstyle and abilities.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Hmmm... I don't know what to say. You waste your time to post that comment or did you waste your time to read 74 pages and hope for news?
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
This is where I currently stand on the roster; my final predictions until E3:
There are 48 characters (including transformations). "New IP" is Miyamoto's new character which we'll hopefully see at E3. If not then I'll replace that with somebody else.
Little Mac has a MUCH bigger chance to appear than Takamaru. Remember that Takamaru's game never was released outside japan, and even if other characters of the smash games were also one or two regions only, they were too important to be omitted (Mother/earthbound series) or were going to help sell future games that were going to be released (Fire Emblem), something that Takamaru has neither. He is simply, not important.
I suppose you are trying to include him as an old historic character (ROB and Game & Watch) or as a future revival (Pit), but again, he is not historic in any way (ROB saved videogame consoles in the west and G&W is the character portrayal of the first Nintendo portables) and im pretty sure theres not gonna be a revival.
Little Mac is the same as him, but he is important:
-Was released world wide.
-Is as old as Takamaru, but with more history.
-He just was revived for the wii.
Also as a gameplay point of view, a character that can only throw punches (he is a boxer, so he cant do kicks) is more original than another character with a sword in the roster.
As for the new pokemon, im pretty sure putting something like that will take out Lucario from the roster.
What do you mean by "future revival"? Sakurai didn't know he was going to be making a new Kid Icarus game until he was introduced to the 3DS hardware... years after Brawl. Ice Climbers and Pit were both included to represent the NES era, just as Takamaru potentially would be. He's also made guest appearances in Captain Rainbow and Samurai Warriors 3 since Brawl. As you've demonstrated by mentioning Mother and Fire Emblem, there's no evidence that being exclusive to Japan hurts a character's chances of appearing. Also, it's pretty ignorant to say that all sword users are alike. Have you ever played Murasame Castle? Takamaru can turn invisible, shoot fireballs, throw shurikens, and strike enemies with lightning. There's nobody in the game like that.
As far as Takamaru not being "important" goes... not really. He's popular enough in Japan to warrant inclusion. In 1986, Nintendo introduced four original games for the Famicom Disk System: The Legend of Zelda, Murasame Castle (sister title to Zelda), Metroid, and Kid Icarus (sister title to Metroid). With Link, Samus, and Pit in the game, Takamaru is a logical next step.
Also, why couldn't Lucario and Zoroark coexist? Because they both look like dogs? Lucario has an aura mechanic and throws balls of energy; Zoroark wouldn't play anything like that. If superficial similarities meant anything, Lucas and Wolf wouldn't have been added to Brawl.
Black-Wind
Member
Sigh, I know ... HERE WE GO!
I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about people in general. I hope you understand that I'm saying that it would by no means be hard to find rationalizations for any character by fans after they have been revealed. NO ONE saw ROB as a contender before his reveal and people openly and over-whelming mocked the few people that thought PT could happen or that a Starter Pokemon could be a PC. But once it's actually revealed "Well, It's understandable ... blah blah blah blah, blah blah".
Same with past games. Before Smash 64 came out how many people do you think would have guessed Ness or CF would be in or deserved to be in a game for "Nintendo All-Stars" as it was marketed back then? How about before Melee? How many would have thought that IC (Characters from a game series I'm sure most of the target fans would have never heard of and it sure as hell wasn't popular enough to become an on-going series)/ FE (Japan only at the time I believe) or G&W (Need I say more?) characters were likely or "deserving"? But now? Now it's easy shit to find reasons into their inclusion.
Bullshit.
Sakurai openly stated that Saki was highly wanted in Japan and that he became an AT so that he could be in the game in some way (even commenting on how he looked like he fit in with the others. Hell, last time I felt that he hinted at a trophy from a non-popular series that hard was with Pitt ). Now clearly it seems like a character from one game that was Japan only seems like a no-go but that game's no-longer Japan only and it now has a worldwide sequel that's been praised up the ass as a great Wii title. If there's one thing Smash is about it's the fans and Nintendo Fans love for this series was enough to get it released worldwide with a sequel ... and Sakurai seems to like it enough so why not?
GS is a successful newer handheld RPG that's released worldwide and likely isn't "dead" (as in, it's likely to get more installments in the future). That doesn't come across as forced ... forced would be something like "Random enemy from a popular IP because said IP needs to keep getting new characters and they ran out of relevant ones".
Actually bringing in a new character from a newer IP that's success and interesting? Not forced at all when you look at characters like Ness (still a mystery to me how he got in instead of someone else but w/e).
Pushing that goal-post I see.
Then I'm sure you're just the embodiment of insight :]
More goal post pushing at the bolded. :/
And everyone thinks they've "cracked the code" every time this happens. We're humans, our brain loves to see patterns so that we know what to expect ... even when they're not there. Hell, you seem to still think that sells have anything to do with anything at this point.
*citation needed on the bold.
And I say those characters are likely to get in because ... people like them (and even Sakurai seems to like them. I am a FIRM believer that some ATs will be upgraded to character status).
And why would GS get a character? Simple, 3 games are more than 2 and all that says is that it's likely to be an on going series - it's an interesting game with a unique world and a character with a ton of potential for Smash - fans want it and Sakurai atleast respected it enough to get it in as an AT.
Cool ... and I couldn't give less of a rats butt about your opinions, it simply bothers me to see people act as if their opinion is law/ fact/ some sure-thing that's a sure-thing because they feel that they can decode the mind of some 50+ yo Japanese guy.
Exactly.
There's no code or list of shit you can come up with, the man will just do w/e he wants.
When exactly was the last time I tried pushing sales as a metric for a character being included?
Ness is from a first-party game made by the same studio that developed Smash Bros.; Isaac is from an outsourced second-party series. There's no comparison.
I wouldn't be so sure -- Sakurai has said that the concept of the Assist Trophy is to include characters who are popular but not quite worthy of being playable.
http://www.geocities.jp/bgrtype/gsl/words2/dairantosmabrax/smashbrothersx.html
(Please trust that my translations are accurate; I do commercial translation work, and I'm an active contributor to sites like EventHubs.)
Famitsu Interview A:
"One gets the impression from looking at Nintendo that they no longer make character-based games. As I wrote on the Smash Bros. DOJO!!, there are about 6 years separating Pikmin from Pokémon and the release of Brawl -- there are no recent series quite worthy of a new character."
Famitsu Interview B:
"[…]When deciding on characters to add from series introduced in the GameCube era, there were very few choices. Looking back again, there is not much that created a lasting impact. In addition to Pikmin, I considered including a character from Animal Crossing."
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/various/various33.html
"When they’re all lined up like this, it becomes obvious that there is roughly 6-year blank before and after Pikmin. While there have been big series since then like "Animal Crossing," "Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day," and "Wii Sports" it does seem that coming up with a completely new character-driven series has gotten more difficult recently."
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Little Mac is more historically important worldwide than Takamru, however it doesnt mean shit because sakurai will do whatever he wants.
Being in Captain Rainbow (and Little Mac was also in that) or Samurai Warriors as a guest doesnt mean shit. Its more important being revelant to this day and Takamaru isnt.
But im pretty sure Takamaru is not going to be in the roster, not before others much more relevant now or more important. Even any character in Golden Sun, or some of the new games nintendo have released during the Wii are more relevant.
Takamaru was not even thought as an AT.
But whatever, im not going to enter in a character list war, Sakurai at the end will put whatever he wants trolling again favourite lists. Knowing your Nintendo history is not even good for knowing what possible characters will be in the roster.
If at the Takamaru is in the roster, congratulations.
If Little Mac is not there, but Zoarak and Takamaru are it will get pretty obvious he just put the characters with a flip of a coin.
WTF
Being in Captain Rainbow (and Little Mac was also in that) or Samurai Warriors as a guest doesnt mean shit. Its more important being revelant to this day and Takamaru isnt.
But im pretty sure Takamaru is not going to be in the roster, not before others much more relevant now or more important. Even any character in Golden Sun, or some of the new games nintendo have released during the Wii are more relevant.
Takamaru was not even thought as an AT.
But whatever, im not going to enter in a character list war, Sakurai at the end will put whatever he wants trolling again favourite lists. Knowing your Nintendo history is not even good for knowing what possible characters will be in the roster.
If at the Takamaru is in the roster, congratulations.
If Little Mac is not there, but Zoarak and Takamaru are it will get pretty obvious he just put the characters with a flip of a coin.
WTF
Green Mamba
Member
While I didn't see Pokemon Trainer coming, I personally saw R.O.B. as a serious possibility.
But I do agree with your overall sentiment (if not specific points) that this isn't as much of a straight science as cednym makes it out to be.
Concerning Takamaru--I think it's worth considering that the only Japan only character introduced in Brawl was a character in a series that was already represented in Smash and was not an entirely Japan only series. Prior to Brawl Sakurai did note that he wanted to steer away from stuff that overseas audiences wouldn't be familiar with. Introducing an unfamiliar character from a familiar series is one thing, but introducing an entire franchise that is for the most part unknown is another.
Faaaaar from it, actually.
Punch-Out!! is important in the West and only in the West. Japan never gave a shit about boxing -- the game was created in the first place to appeal to the American market. Hell, Japan didn't even get Super Punch-Out!! until 1998... and only as a Nintendo Power flash RAM cartridge.
It happened with Fire Emblem, though.
I really don't see Zoroark making it in mainly because his signature move is the Illusion ability who allows him to take his enemy's form while retaining his own moveset. Adding an animation for every character in the roster for Zoroark's moves would probably be incredibly time-consuming, and Sakurai might not want to go through all that trouble just for one character.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Pretty sure Mac being iconic and well-known everywhere but in Japan largely outweighs Takumurwhatever only being known in Japan in a retro-sense by several metric tons.
That was a really unique situation, though. They were initially going to only be in the Japanese version of the game, before they were a hit with US playtesters. They were already developed by the time Sakurai decided to put them in the game internationally. Plus this happened in Melee, and Sakurai said his bit about steering away from overseas stuff after releasing Brawl. I think Japan-only characters are certainly possible in SSB4, but Fire Emblem's Melee inclusion doesn't have a lot of weight as a precedent in my opinion.
Green Mamba
Member
This was before he made the statement that he wanted to avoid introducing stuff that overseas audiences would be unfamiliar with--this came from the original Brawl Dojo before it started getting regular updates. To me it sounded like he didn't want a repeat of what he did with Fire Emblem, the two characters of which he almost considered scrapping in the overseas editions. And Fire Emblem is a much bigger icon in Japan than Murasame Castle--it's the kind of series he couldn't avoid introducing eventually. Murasame Castle is not in such a favorable position.
NeonZ
Member
Takamaru wasn't just a random "guest" in Samurai Warriors 3 though. He had an entire story mode that was a sequel to his game, bigger than any other modes in the game aside from the standard Sengoku story mode (it was bigger than any of the individual stories there though). And Samurai Warriors 3 had a worldwide release.
Ice Climbers? Personally, I don't think Little Mac and Takamaru are really in competition for a spot. If Little Mac makes it in, he'll be getting in as a character who even got his own game for the Wii, not as the revival of a NES character. Takamaru is much more likely to make it in as the "forgotten NES character" like Ice Climbers and Pit. I highly doubt Sakurai would use his Samurai Warriors version as the base of the character.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yeah he'd be a terrible Kirby clone.
MisterHero
Super Member
Little Mac is going to get in because King Hippo was a villain on Captain N and Captain N is going to be a character and so is Simon Belmont and Game Boy
It's not like this game is being made in Japan or anything.
There are three instances of Sakurai favoring the Japanese audience with character selections (Marth, Roy, and Lucas) and zero instances of him favoring the West. There hasn't even been a single reference to the StarTropics series in the history of Smash Bros. -- not even a sticker.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
You mean this dude?
Sure beats the version of Simon that Konami would have put in the game, anyway.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Metroid sells like shit in Japan but has been heavily featured in Smash since day one. Sonic is a similar case where the Western-fanbase wanted him in the most for Brawl. Mother has a cultish fanbase outside Japan, isn't a Japanese-only series and most people who cared one way or the other had likely already imported and played the game Lucas was from. Fire Emblem was Japanese only, yes, but was also really the only 'major' franchise which was long-running Nintendo had they never brought to the West. I'd suggest Ike was in Brawl since he was one of the first major FE lord western players would recognise, but I don't know enough about FE as a series to tell if he was relevant or not in Japan. Either way, one occurrence isn't really a trend of 'this series always places Japanese fans first'.
Unless I'm misreading what you were saying earlier in the thread, acting like a character who's the star of a long-running series, recently had a popular comeback game on the Wii and also made a physical appearance in Brawl like Mac is an idiotic choice over a one-off character from a Japan-only NES launch-title (... which I don't think Smash has acknowledged the existence of much anyway) because the former is more western-orientated is ridiculous.
Outside of this argument Takamru would probably be neat though, yeah. I'd prefer Samurai Goroh if we could only have one 'samurai' type character though, but I'm hardly an expert on this kind of thing so I guess you could have one's style be proper and more along WAY OF THE WARRIOR, the other a messy and violent use of them with the occasional gunshot or dirtytrick thrown in. No prizes for guessing who would suit which style.
You mean this dude?
Launchpad McQuack would be fucking awesome
Azure Dream
Member
"My whip will whup you!"
If I remembered right, they altered Simon's design for Season 3, in fact a few designs got uglified due to what I assume was a decreased budget.
If Sonic's included in the next Smash, I hope they find a more meaningful way to include Dr. Eggman (Robotnik, whatever floats your boat) than just a trophy. If not as a character, then as a boss in Single Player or something. I heard it described once, and it made sense, that it's sort of an unwritten rule the two always appear together, even more so than Mario and Bowser. There's a few obscure exceptions, but for Brawl it felt like a major fumble to leave him out, especially when Subspace Emissary was hurting for villains to include.
If I remembered right, they altered Simon's design for Season 3, in fact a few designs got uglified due to what I assume was a decreased budget.
If Sonic's included in the next Smash, I hope they find a more meaningful way to include Dr. Eggman (Robotnik, whatever floats your boat) than just a trophy. If not as a character, then as a boss in Single Player or something. I heard it described once, and it made sense, that it's sort of an unwritten rule the two always appear together, even more so than Mario and Bowser. There's a few obscure exceptions, but for Brawl it felt like a major fumble to leave him out, especially when Subspace Emissary was hurting for villains to include.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I'm honestly surprised he wasn't a stage hazard in Green Hill with his wrecking ball. Or at least flying around in the background now and then; even bloody Silver the Hedgehog cameoed in that stage!
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
To be fair metroid is actually popular in Japan - it's the Prime which isn't as big as in the US
Oh god I cant unsee the resemblance
Oh god I cant unsee the resemblance
I'm not sure where this myth comes from, but it isn't true. I believe Super Metroid did better in Japan than it did in America, which was the most recent Metroid game before Samus' appearance in Smash 64. Japan generally doesn't like first-person shooters, so yeah, Metroid Prime was much bigger in the West, but the other games sold well enough. Regardless of sales, there are a dozen Metroid games. Little Mac only appears in three Punch-Out!! titles.
NeonZ
Member
I get the impression that Sonic was a somewhat late addition, especially with his reduced participation in Subspace Emissary compared to Snake's earlier debut. Anyway, Subspace Emissary in general needed a complete revision of the way it handled both existing villains and original ones.
I've mentioned it before, but something like Kid Icarus Uprising's set up (First part using established enemies and "original" ones only appearing after fake ending or just ending of the first act) would be the ideal set up for the distribution of villains in the next Smash's story. Subspace Emissary just didn't seem to have enough focus on anything - jumping around randomly between established bosses, often randomly popping up, and random new ones without proper introductions, with a bunch of new enemy grunts that basically came out of nowhere since the start.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Was under the impression the original Metroids didn't sell well in Japan either (I think there's even an Iwata Asks that goes over how Metroid's sci-fi elements always seemed to appeal far more to the West), but if Super Metroid did better in Japan that's something I didn't know about I guess. But not sure how the number of games one has are suddenly factoring into this; Samus had three when she got into Smash 64, Mother had 2 titles of which only one Ness was in, Ice Climbers had one, ROB had two... And again, Takamru's had one and played a bit-part in Captain Rainbow, so why bring it up?
There's been at least 5 Punch-Out games (if you don't include weird spinoffs like that Doc Louis WiiWare thing). But that's an aspect I certainly don't think plays into whether a franchise or character gets in or not after you've already covered your heavy-hitters like Mario and Pokemon .
There's been at least 5 Punch-Out games (if you don't include weird spinoffs like that Doc Louis WiiWare thing). But that's an aspect I certainly don't think plays into whether a franchise or character gets in or not after you've already covered your heavy-hitters like Mario and Pokemon .
Oh, I know, but when directly comparing Metroid to Punch-Out!!, the number of entries in the series is certainly a relevant point of discussion. Samus has always meant more to Nintendo as a whole than Little Mac. I wasn't specifically talking about Smash Bros. when I brought that up; it was more of a general observation.
Professor Beef
Banned
One of the few times I agree with the Japanese.
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