Support NeoGAF

[ScraftyDevil]

I thought it was creative. They used the concept of lizard shedding and turned into a unique take by making it resemble pants. He's not human-shaped - it's just more like Pikachu or Piplup standing on their toes.

And bipedal Pokemon isn't unique this generation. Lots of original have bipedal evolutions.

As for Gardevoir... it has existed even during 150's. Fandom, yeah.

Come with me, fellow defender of Scrafty. We must roam the world, sharing the joys and wonders of the grand Hoodlum Pokémon.

Spoiler

Or don't; whatever floats your boat.

On the topic of Kid Icarus additions, I honestly believe that

Spoiler

Hades

has a better chance at making it in than any of the other characters in the game (except maybe Magnus). As I mentioned in my hypothetical character outline several pages back, his moves and abilities are diverse enough as to warrant a full, fleshed-out character, or at least a boss in Adventure mode.

 

[cednym]

As I mentioned in my hypothetical character outline several pages back, his moves and abilities are diverse enough as to warrant a full, fleshed-out character, or at least a boss in Adventure mode.

This has never mattered.

• Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Captain Falcon's move sets were created from scratch
• Ness and Lucas use other MOTHER characters' attacks
• Zelda doesn't fight in her series, so Sakurai gave her the spells Link learns in Ocarina of Time
• Similarly, Sheik is only shown vanishing in Ocarina of Time, but Sakurai created a unique fighting style for her
• Ice Climbers can only swing their hammers vertically in their game, so Sakurai gave them a ton of new attacks
• Most of Pit's Brawl move set was made up, including the ability to break his bow into two blades
• Zero Suit Samus can only fire solitary paralyzing shots from her gun in Zero Mission, so Sakurai decided to give her a whip
• R.O.B. is a toy robot who can now shoot lasers and hover using rocket fuel

Palutena is the most recurring, important Kid Icarus character who isn't Pit, and so she's most likely first in line for a newcomer spot from that series.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

This has never mattered.

• Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Captain Falcon's move sets were created from scratch
• Ness and Lucas use other MOTHER characters' attacks
• Zelda doesn't fight in her series, so Sakurai gave her the spells Link learns in Ocarina of Time
• Similarly, Sheik is only shown vanishing in Ocarina of Time, but Sakurai created a unique fighting style for her
• Ice Climbers can only swing their hammers vertically in their game, so Sakurai gave them a ton of new attacks
• Most of Pit's Brawl move set was made up, including the ability to break his bow into two blades
• Zero Suit Samus can only fire solitary paralyzing shots from her gun in Zero Mission, so Sakurai decided to give her a whip
• R.O.B. is a toy robot who can now shoot lasers and hover using rocket fuel

Palutena is the most recurring, important Kid Icarus character who isn't Pit, and so she's most likely first in line for a newcomer spot from that series.

Whoa man, I wasn't trying to prove any pattern, I was just stating my opinion and hope. I know that he has next to zero chance making it in, but a man can dream, can't he?

If they did choose to use Palutena, most of her moves could come from

Spoiler

the fight against her in Chapter 21 of Kid Icarus Uprising.

That would make her a bit of a beamspammy character, though.

 

[cednym]

I'm sorry; I didn't mean to come off so aggressively, but I just thought it was strange that you said

Spoiler

Hades

had the best chance out of all the Kid Icarus characters.

In addition to what Palutena uses in the boss fight, she would probably utilize her mirror, some generic magic attacks, and staff-based strikes.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

I'm sorry; I didn't mean to come off so aggressively, but I just thought it was strange that you said

Spoiler

Hades

had the best chance out of all the Kid Icarus characters.

In addition to what Palutena uses in the boss fight, she would probably utilize her mirror, some generic magic attacks, and staff-based strikes.

Well,

Spoiler

Hades

is my favourite character, so of course I'd want him in the game over Palutena. What I meant to say was I'd like him to be in the game the most, my wording just got a little jumbled up and ended up sounding more like an observation than an opinion.

Really, I'd love any of the characters from KI:U to be in Smash 4, even if it's just Dark Pit acting as a clone character. Alternatively, they could make Dark Pit clone-like, but give him a weapon from one of the other 8 families, like the First Blade, Ogre Club, Dark Pit Staff or Silver Bow that he uses in Chapter 7. I'd really like to see Sakurai get creative for this one; even if it means getting rid of or retooling clones.

 

[cednym]

I can't remember if I posted this on NeoGAF, and it isn't really 100% on topic, but I made bullet points of the old 2002 Famitsu translations I found on my old computer pertaining to Melee. There's some good insight in here, I think. It's interesting that a lot of these concepts ended up making it into Brawl.

• It was decided early on to separate the newcomers into two even groups for balance reasons: fan favorites (as determined by a survey) and unique, unexpected characters.
• Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, and Marth were culled from the fan survey.
• Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, and Mr. Game & Watch made up the other group.
• Just in case Sakurai couldn't get approval to use Marth from Intelligent Systems, he had some King Dedede concepts ready as a backup.
• Wario placed third in the poll, but with Bowser and Peach pencilled in, Sakurai didn't want to include 3 Mario newcomers.

• Sakurai considered adding a character from Pokémon Gold/Silver during planning, but none of the popular options were feasible.
• He thought about having a trainer summon the second generation starters, but there wasn't time/resources for such a labor-intensive character.
• Pichu was promoted as the main Pokémon from those games, but it would have been too similar to Pikachu, so Sakurai passed on it.

• Thinking back to Pichu is partly what made Sakurai want to include clones.
• Clones were not included in Melee's planning documents.
• Sakurai had a hard time deciding on all of the clones, though some choices came easy like Pichu and Young Link.
• Sakurai says that he probably could have finished Dedede in the time it took to make the 6 clones, but he's glad he was able to beef the roster up a bit.
• Wario was briefly considered as the Mario clone, with low speed and high attack power, but Sakurai felt that Wario deserved better.
• Dr. Mario made sense for a few reasons: he's from a critically-acclaimed retro game, the team wanted to include his music, and because a doctor would probably be on hand at an event as violent as Smash Bros.
• Wolf was considered as Fox's clone, but with shared animations Sakurai felt he would just be perceived as a gray-colored Fox, so he went with Falco for his drastically different appearance and excellent jumping capabilities.
• Leaf was considered as Marth's clone, but when Sakurai went to Intelligent Systems for approval they gave him an early look at the GBA Fire Emblem, and he agreed that Roy would be a better fit. Sakurai mentions his fire properties as making him stand out.
• Ganondorf was the last character added to the game. He was only included because he was popular, had a similar body type to Captain Falcon, and because Sakurai couldn't really think of any additional plausible clones.

 

[GamerSoul]

Very, very interesting notes. It kinda boggles the mind how lucky some of the characters that got in were but I guess that all apart of the development process. I kinda like the idea of having the two groups of popular and surprises, it simplifies things.

A point for Dr. Mario was a need of a doctor on hand? lol C'mon.

 

[cednym]

Very, very interesting notes. It kinda boggles the mind how lucky some of the characters that got in were but I guess that all apart of the development process. I kinda like the idea of having the two groups of popular and surprises, it simplifies things.

A point for Dr. Mario was a need of a doctor on hand? lol C'mon.

I really need to track down these articles again. I vaguely recall Donkey Kong Jr. being brought up as a fast, weak Donkey Kong clone candidate before Sakurai settled on Ganondorf, but there's nothing in my translation notes for that.

 

[Hot Coldman]

So I guess Lucario will probably be back.

 

[Linkhero1]

So I guess Lucario will probably be back.

That doesn't necessarily mean he'll be back in it. I had no problem with Lucario so I'd like to see him in the next Smash.

I wonder if he's going to change Pokemon Trainer at all.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

That information is really interesting, cednym. Now I'll always be disappointed that Leaf just missed out on getting into Melee.

 

[Hot Coldman]

That doesn't necessarily mean he'll be back in it. I had no problem with Lucario so I'd like to see him in the next Smash.

I wonder if he's going to change Pokemon Trainer at all.

I mean somehow up there obviously still likes him so who knows, it's better than pretending he doesn't exist I guess? I dunno, kinda just wanted to get the word out about that great video, haha

And I bet Pokemon Trainer stays the same, but gets Leaf as an alt.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

How many characters do people see being added to the next Smash? Melee has 13 new additions and Brawl had 16(If I'm remembering correctly). At most I see 10 characters being added. However, they may go with 13 to make it a nice even number.

And I bet Pokemon Trainer stays the same, but gets Leaf as an alt.

Personally, I hope that he adds a female trainer as a character and she represents different gen starters. Maybe the alt. costumes can be different skins of the protagonists in the different gen games.

 

[Linkhero1]

I mean somehow up there obviously still likes him so who knows, it's better than pretending he doesn't exist I guess? I dunno, kinda just wanted to get the word out about that great video, haha

And I bet Pokemon Trainer stays the same, but gets Leaf as an alt.

I do hope Sakurai doesn't change too much from what we have now. I'd just like to see a few new additions (10 new characters) and new stages.

I'd like to think he'd use the starters from Gold and Silver in the next game

 

[Hot Coldman]

I'd like to think he'd use the starters from Gold and Silver in the next game

Boo, no! Squirtle and Charizard are too fucking iconic to replace anyway, I want the FRLG trio to remain.

That said, there's gotta be someone new from BW/BW2 in there. I think they'll take the plunge and have the first playable human Pokemon character in there, personally. N, probably.

Personally, I hope that he adds a female trainer as a character and she represents different gen starters. Maybe the alt. costumes can be different skins of the protagonists in the different gen games.

Oh yeah, if I had to predict I'd say there'll be BW1 and BW2 male alts and FRLG, RSE and BW2 female alts.

 

[cednym]

I do think that the release of HeartGold and SoulSilver means we might get a second generation Pokémon, but the return of Pichu is more plausible than two Pokémon Trainers. Pichu starred in Pokémon Ranger 3, and I remember Spiky-eared Pichu being a big deal in '09-'10 -- it was heavily promoted for Arceus and the Jewel of Life. It's sort of regained the Pikachu clone throne back from Plusle & Minun. Plus, Pichu's a veteran, so it has that going for it.

Speaking of Pokémon Trainer, here's a fun fact: Sakurai was originally going to use either Charmander/Squirtle/Bulbasaur or Charizard/Blastoise/Venusaur, but he eventually decided that it would be best for diversity reasons to have one from each generation. He didn't want to use the middle stage Pokémon because they "tend to be forgotten." (Source)

 

[Linkhero1]

Boo, no! Squirtle and Charizard are too fucking iconic to replace anyway, I want the FRLG trio to remain.

That said, there's gotta be someone new from BW/BW2 in there. I think they'll take the plunge and have the first playable human Pokemon character in there, personally. N, probably.

Nothing's stopping him from putting another trainer in the game.

I'm wondering how they would do a playable human Pokemon character. Throw dud Pokeballs at people xD.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Nothing's stopping him from putting another trainer in the game.

I'm wondering how they would do a playable human Pokemon character. Throw dud Pokeballs at people xD.

Yeah, I can't see him reusing an idea for a character though. He could theoretically do an Advance Wars character that has troops following him like Pikmin and Olimar, but I doubt he'd do that either. Unless it's a clone, I think new characters = new ideas.

I think a playable human Pokemon character would still use their Pokemon to fight for them for the most part, they just wouldn't be afraid to throw punches themselves. I can't see the player characters from the games being like this, but someone like Cynthia or N I could. It's just a different approach to having a Pokemon Trainer and their Pokemon in the game. Hell, it could be like the Pokemon Trainer just with the Trainer fighting side by side their Pokemon.

 

[cednym]

Reflecting back on both Zoroark and Victini, I think we're going to see Zoroark as the playable Black/White representative.

It was the first fifth generation Pokémon to be revealed, it starred in a movie, it's heavily promoted, it has a major role in PokéPark 2, and it's featured in Pokémon Conquest.

Victini also has a lot of that going for it, but at the end of the day, it's still a cutesy flying legendary in the vein of Mew and Celebi. I can very well see Victini being one of the first Poké Ball summons revealed on the new Dojo.

With that said, Genesect's role and impact remain to be seen. Deoxys was a popular Ruby/Sapphire Pokémon in a similar position, but there's no indication that it was ever considered to be playable, so I'm not sure how well Genesect might hold up. We're two years into the fifth generation and it still hasn't been seen, whereas Zoroark has had all of that time for exposure.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Zoroark is the Shang Tsung of Pokemon and would probably serve the same purpose in Smash.

So, do not want. Ever. Besides, he's not even that liked.

 

[cednym]

Zoroark is the Shang Tsung of Pokemon and would probably serve the same purpose in Smash.

So, do not want. Ever. Besides, he's not even that liked.

Yeah, I look at Zoroark, and I can't help but see a desperate attempt at copying the success of Lucario. Not only do they look similar, but it even has Zorua as its Riolu equivalent. I still think its inclusion is likely, though, because it's undoubtedly had the biggest marketing push of all the new Pokémon. Sakurai might have some clever ways of implementing its illusion ability.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Reflecting back on both Zoroark and Victini, I think we're going to see Zoroark as the playable Black/White representative.

It was the first fifth generation Pokémon to be revealed, it starred in a movie, it's heavily promoted, it has a major role in PokéPark 2, and it's featured in Pokémon Conquest.

Yeah but they did that because they thought they'd have a Lucario 2.0 in terms of popularity. Didn't take off so well though.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Yeah, I look at Zoroark, and I can't help but see a desperate attempt at copying the success of Lucario. Not only do they look similar, but it even has Zorua as its Riolu equivalent. I still think its inclusion is likely, though, because it's undoubtedly had the biggest marketing push of all the new Pokémon. Sakurai might have some clever ways of implementing its illusion ability.

Just because it was a big part of marketing doesn't mean it's more likely to get in- if the fans haven't responded well to it, then it's not going to happen. Lucario got in as much on the back of fans really liking it as much as TPC pushing it during the early days of Gen IV, and Zoroark would be the same if not for the fact that no-one gives a shit about it.

There's got to be so many other well-known Pokemon characters worth choosing worth. N, Cynthia, Giovanni, Blaziken, Electivire, Bisharp, Krookodile, Scrafty... the list goes on. Hell, bring back Mewtwo first.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Yeah, Zoroark didn't reach Lucario's height.

With that said, why are people comparing the two power-wise? Lucario's a martial artist aura user, Zoroark's a shapeshifter. If anything he should be a Kirby clone.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Zoroark is the Shang Tsung of Pokemon and would probably serve the same purpose in Smash.

So he transforms into every other character in the game at will and is generally the best character to choose for playaround TASes?

 

[Hot Coldman]

So he transforms into every other character in the game at will and is generally the best character to choose for playaround TASes?

Yes to the first part, sure why the fuck not to the second

 

[cednym]

Just because it was a big part of marketing doesn't mean it's more likely to get in- if the fans haven't responded well to it, then it's not going to happen. Lucario got in as much on the back of fans really liking it as much as TPC pushing it during the early days of Gen IV, and Zoroark would be the same if not for the fact that no-one gives a shit about it.

There's got to be so many other well-known Pokemon characters worth choosing worth. N, Cynthia, Giovanni, Blaziken, Electivire, Bisharp, Krookodile, Scrafty... the list goes on. Hell, bring back Mewtwo first.

I'm not sure it's necessarily true that the "fans haven't responded well" to Zoroark. It's clearly not the biggest Pokémon in the world, but I think some people in this topic are negatively skewing its reception. Zoroark seems to be popular enough just about anywhere else on the Internet that I look. Not that Wikipedia counts for anything on its own, but the critical reception category on its Zoroark page links to a lot of positive reaction.

As an outsider looking in, I get the impression that the Zoroark detractors are among the more vocal, "hardcore" Pokémon fans. Zoroark strikes me as a very mass market, casual-friendly Pokémon.

 

[Thores]

You know, I actually think that Zorua is more likely a candidate for SSB4 than Zoroark.

* They both have a similar amount of marketing push. In fact, in nearly every occasion Zoroark has had a major role, Zorua has appeared beside it. Zoroark does have an obvious edge there though.
* Zorua has access to the Illusion ability, and mostly the same movepool as its evolution
* Zorua actually seems more well liked, and doesn't have the "Lucario ripoff" stigma that Zoroark does
* Most of the main speculated candidates for SSB4 are either cool/badass characters or zany/humorous ones. Zoroark would be another badass, but Zorua would be a "cute" addition to the roster, bringing some aesthetic variety, which Sakurai seems to value highly.


I honestly think neither of them are going to playable in SSB4, but if one of them are, Zorua seems like a smarter choice.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I'm not sure it's necessarily true that the "fans haven't responded well" to Zoroark. It's clearly not the biggest Pokémon in the world, but I think some people in this topic are negatively skewing its reception. Zoroark seems to be popular enough just about anywhere else on the Internet that I look. Not that Wikipedia counts for anything on its own, but the critical reception category on its Zoroark page links to a lot of positive reaction.

As an outsider looking in, I get the impression that the Zoroark detractors are among the more vocal, "hardcore" Pokémon fans. Zoroark strikes me as a very mass market, casual-friendly Pokémon.

^It's more to do with people simply comparing him to Lucario really (marketing-wise). People assume they're of equal importance.

 

[mooooose]

What are the chances of a SSB4 teaser at E3? Similar to the Brawl one.

 

[Red Arremer]

What are the chances of a SSB4 teaser at E3? Similar to the Brawl one.

Not very high, but it's possible.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

What are the chances of a SSB4 teaser at E3? Similar to the Brawl one.

This game probably isn't as far along as Brawl was in 2006. If we get any kind of teaser, I don't think it will be as substantial.

 

[Black-Wind]

What are the chances of a SSB4 teaser at E3? Similar to the Brawl one.

I think it's a given.

Sakurai's a smart guy so I don't think he didn't have a small team planning shit out before KI was out. Plus KI was delayed ... and though I don't know much about game production I'm sure the pre-production team isn't needed for the final stages before the game goes gold. Could be wrong so w/e.

Also, seeing how Nintendo is hyping this game up already I don't see them not trying to get something out for E3. Hell, TP's first trailer was made in 4 months and the HD Zelda tech-demo for WiiU was apparently made in a short span of time using TP assets so I'm sure they can do a cool CG trailer using some characters he's sure he will bring in for E3 at the very least. And on top of that I feel Sakurai would want to give people something to throw the hype train in motion.

But other people disagree so we shall see.

 

[Tyeforce]

^It's more to do with people simply comparing him to Lucario really (marketing-wise). People assume they're of equal importance.

I think the only reason why Lucario is so much more popular than Zoroark right now is because he's been around longer, and as a result of that he's also had more exposure (getting into Brawl, being prominently featured in spin-off games, having his own movie, etc.). But Zoroark seems to be following the same path that took Lucario to popularity, so I don't think it's really possible for him not be be almost as big as Lucario. He may never be quite as popular, mainly because Lucario will always have the advantage of having been around longer, but I see them very close in terms of popularity. It's clear that Nintendo/Game Freak/The Pokémon Company see them that way, too. They've been promoting both Lucario and Zoroark heavily for Black 2 & White 2, like with this artwork:

 

[Snakey]

I wonder if Sakurai will bring back all of the cut Melee characters (with the exception of Young Link due to Toon Link's inclusion). They all had some sort of new role/appearance/promotion since Brawl's release.

Dr. Mario:
Dr. Mario Online Rx was one of the best selling games for WiiWare (most likely Top 5). Dr. Mario Express was also a major release for the DSiware.

Pichu:
Notched-ear Pichu was basically the mascot of HeartGold/Soul Silver.

Mewtwo:
Is featured on the box art to Pokemon Conquest, and is the personal Pokemon to one of the major characters to that game.

Roy:
Had a major re-design and was released as DLC for FE13 during Golden Week.

I am thinking if Sakurai does decide to bring them all back, that he might decide to group them altogether in a column on the character selection screen.

Like this:

Mewtwo
Roy
Dr. Mario
Pichu
Random (or Young Link)

 

[cednym]

I could see them returning, but why would they be grouped together in a column like that? I don't see the point in separating the series after they've been connected for three games.

 

[qq more]

i dont honestly see pichu or young link to ever return. they felt like throwaway characters


toon link should of have been a luigified clone imho

 

[GamerSoul]

I really need to track down these articles again. I vaguely recall Donkey Kong Jr. being brought up as a fast, weak Donkey Kong clone candidate before Sakurai settled on Ganondorf, but there's nothing in my translation notes for that.

It's pretty interesting how clones came up later in the process and because of that fact some characters were introduced or even considered. I can see why DK jr might have been an option but it's funny how he wasn't really needed since Diddy and Dixie and later on just Diddy was the only DK newcomer.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Admittedly I hate Zoroark. I dunno why but I want to throw it in a fire.

 

[Snakey]

I could see them returning, but why would they be grouped together in a column like that? I don't see the point in separating the series after they've been connected for three games.

They are all cut Melee characters, and since the columns share themes, the theme of their column would be Melee's cut characters.

i dont honestly see pichu or young link to ever return. they felt like throwaway characters

Young Link's role was taken by Toon Link. I think Pichu might still have a place in Smash Bros. as the the series's true joke character and being the representative for the massively popular second-generation.

 

[KevinCow]

I don't understand why some people still act like Young Link was removed. Because he's still in Brawl. He's just called Toon Link. They're the same damn character.

 

[Snakey]

I don't understand why some people still act like Young Link was removed. Because he's still in Brawl. He's just called Toon Link. They're the same damn character.

I agree. Toon Link was basically a newcomer in name only. Its like saying Brawl's Link is a newcomer due to the fact he is no longer Ocarina of Time's Link and the fact he has some minor differences from his Melee counterpart. For me, Melee's cut characters were Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, and Pichu.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

^It's more to do with people simply comparing him to Lucario really (marketing-wise). People assume they're of equal importance.

Well what exactly is the major difference between the two and what makes Lucario's importance significantly greater? Lucario was revealed as one of the first 4th gen pokemon(not the first though since Munchlax, Weavile and Bonsly beat him to it) and had a starring role in an anime film alongside Mew. In the games he wasn't anything remarkable or special in terms of importance. Zoroa/Zoroark was the first pokemon of 5th gen revealled. Zoroark had the starring role of an anime film alongside Celebi and has become a major mascot of 5th gen. However, in-game he isn't anything remarkable or special.

They are identical in terms of game relevance and marketing. The only reason why Zoroark has detractors is because it was obvious he was being marketed as the next Lucario.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Who needs Dr. Mario when regular Mario gets the Pill move sticker at level 8?

 

[cednym]

I agree. Toon Link was basically a newcomer in name only. Its like saying Brawl's Link is a newcomer due to the fact he is no longer Ocarina of Time's Link and the fact he has some minor differences from his Melee counterpart. For me, Melee's cut characters were Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, and Pichu.

I see Toon Link as a direct replacement of Young Link (like Plusle & Minun would have been for Pichu), but I don't think it's right to say that they're the same character. He has a new name, he's directly categorized as a newcomer in the official Japanese guides, he has a few new attacks, and most importantly... his victory animations. Yes, his victory animations. Each character has three; EVERY returning character has the same victory motions as in Melee, but all of Toon Link's are new. Even regular Link has his Melee ones.

Yeah, it's stupid, superficial, and meaningless to argue this, but Toon Link's still a newcomer.

 

[Snakey]

I see Toon Link as a direct replacement of Young Link (like Plusle & Minun would have been for Pichu), but I don't think it's right to say that they're the same character. He has a new name, he's directly categorized as a newcomer in the official Japanese guides, he has a few new attacks, and most importantly... his victory animations. Yes, his victory animations. Each character has three; EVERY returning character has the same victory motions as in Melee, but all of Toon Link's are new. Even regular Link has his Melee ones.

Yeah, it's stupid, superficial, and meaningless to argue this, but Toon Link's still a newcomer.

Young Link and Toon Link will probably never both be playable characters in the same Smash Bros. game unless one is a costume of the other one (of which an alternate costume would not work since Young Link has different body proportions in comparison to Toon Link).

However, I can see Dr. Mario working as a costume. Pichu's problem for returning is that he was really unpopular among much of the Smash Bros. fanbase. The only two of the cut Melee characters that there exists a strong fan demand for returning are Mewtwo and Roy. I think Dr. Mario returning with his own slot might also elicit a negative reaction from the Smash Bros. fanbase due to the false assumption that he took the spot to a more deserving or interesting Mario character (Toad, Bowser Jr., Paper Mario, Waluigi, Rosalina, Geno, etc.).

 

[Boss Doggie]

Well what exactly is the major difference between the two and what makes Lucario's importance significantly greater? Lucario was revealed as one of the first 4th gen pokemon(not the first though since Munchlax, Weavile and Bonsly beat him to it) and had a starring role in an anime film alongside Mew. In the games he wasn't anything remarkable or special in terms of importance. Zoroa/Zoroark was the first pokemon of 5th gen revealled. Zoroark had the starring role of an anime film alongside Celebi and has become a major mascot of 5th gen. However, in-game he isn't anything remarkable or special.

They are identical in terms of game relevance and marketing. The only reason why Zoroark has detractors is because it was obvious he was being marketed as the next Lucario.

Lucario continued to be relevant though, which is my point. He still has appearances and is used a lot for mascots and such.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Lucario continued to be relevant though, which is my point. He still has appearances and is used a lot for mascots and such.

He was heavily marketed as an important pokemon for Pokemon Conquest and a few posts up you can see him in a poster for Pokemon Black/White 2.

 

[GamerSoul]

Admittedly I hate Zoroark. I dunno why but I want to throw it in a fire.

Yea I never really like him, I don't think I even I was able to get one when playing White a while ago and I don't even care.

 

[cednym]

Young Link and Toon Link will probably never both be playable characters in the same Smash Bros. game unless one is a costume of the other one (of which an alternate costume would not work since Young Link has different body proportions in comparison to Toon Link).

However, I can see Dr. Mario working as a costume. Pichu's problem for returning is that he was really unpopular among much of the Smash Bros. fanbase. The only two of the cut Melee characters that there exists a strong fan demand for returning are Mewtwo and Roy. I think Dr. Mario returning with his own slot might also elicit a negative reaction from the Smash Bros. fanbase due to the false assumption that he took the spot to a more deserving or interesting Mario character (Toad, Bowser Jr., Paper Mario, Waluigi, Rosalina, Geno, etc.).

I think Paper Mario has a much better shot of making SSB4 than Dr. Mario. Paper Mario is a multi-million selling series that has doubled in size since the planning period of Brawl. Dr. Mario, on the other hand, has only appeared in outsourced downloadable games. I understand that Sakurai wanted to bring him back for Brawl to placate the Melee fans, but his time has come and gone.

I agree that Mewtwo and Roy are strong contenders, and despite its unpopularity in Melee, Pichu reemerged as one of the preeminent Pokémon of 2009-2010. The period between Melee and Brawl saw three periods of mainline game releases: Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald, FireRed/LeafGreen, and Diamond/Pearl. Plusle & Minun was planned for the first, Pokémon Trainer represented the second, and Lucario represented the third. There have been two more periods since then: HeartGold/SoulSilver and Black(2)/White(2). As you said before, Pichu was definitely pushed as the top Pokémon of the HG/SS "era."