IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Nice trolling. :lol
Iknow it's true but just wow that you had to say that. It's Mario, right?
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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
- Thread starter Snakeyes
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Nice trolling. :lol
but Bowser is already in the game.
I wonder if both K. Rool and Dixie Kong will be exclude because they were both absent from Retro's successful revival of Donkey Kong. As I mentioned earlier, their last video game appearance was Mario Super Sluggers all the way back in 2008. Country Returns was a huge success even in Japan, where I believe its very close to a million copies sold.
I am also wondering if Ridley's design will be "Other M Ridley". Brawl pretty much took more from Sakamoto's Metroids than Retro's, so we probably will. I personally think Brawl's Ridley design is perfect for Smash Bros.
I am also wondering if Ridley's design will be "Other M Ridley". Brawl pretty much took more from Sakamoto's Metroids than Retro's, so we probably will. I personally think Brawl's Ridley design is perfect for Smash Bros.
Super Smash Bro
Banned
I dont have the interview at my fingertips, but I'm fairly confident that Sakurai said Ridley would take too much to get working in playable form. Things like his skeletal structure, movement style, and the fact that he should always be flying are the biggest hurdles here.
And let's not kid ourselves, we may all recognize Ridley here on a gaming forum, but he is by no measure the most well known non-Mario character, not when we have series like Animal Crossing that aren't represented on the roster yet.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Yep, haha. He's given the DK family way more grief than K. Rool ever could.
Sakurai's exact words were that he would have been playable had he put in his best efforts into it, though he would have been a little slow.
Also, Sakurai already deemed Animal Crossing as a series unfit for a playable character (too pacifist in nature), so yes, Ridley is indeed the most well known Nintendo character (outside of the Mario series) that is not yet playable.
Super Smash Bro
Banned
Not to travel down this road any further, but would you say that Ridley is more well known than, say, Zoroark, a Pokemon character that is not yet playable?
EDIT: Also, for Ridley to make SSBU, Sakurai would have to change his mind in regards to his previous assessment he made for Ridley's viability (either as a character, or from a development perspective) for Brawl. If you believe he could/would do such a thing for Ridley, why is it out of the question for Animal Crossing?
Hot Coldman
Banned
Zoroark will NOT be a playable character, Gen 6 will be on the way by time SSB4 is out so yeah, give up with that one
Ridley and Little Mac are the must-haves.
Ridley and Little Mac are the must-haves.
I would say Ridley is more well known than Zoroark. I don't think any of the fifth-generation posterboys are that popular though (and as Green Scar mentioned, Generation Six will probably be out by the time Smash 4 releases). Ridley has been in games since 1986 and has been in nearly every game to the Metroid series (he even has a higher series attendance rate than even Ganon/Ganondorf).
The difference between Ridley and Animal Crossing, is that Ridley was simply a bridge that Sakurai's team did not want to cross then (probably time consuming to properly balance) whereas Sakurai (and probably AC's director) feel that Animal Crossing is a pacifist series so fighting would be out of nature for a character from it.
Speaking of K Rool and DK, I hope Retro helps with the game in the same way they did with Mario Kart 7. Nintendo's designs for those characters (Sluggers, Barrel Blast) seem like bland imitations to me.
Compare this
To this
Or this
To this
As well as the level choices in Smash, it's as if they never played past the first level. Same could be said of Metroid. If Retro could help them with those designs, and maybe choose the levels, that would be great.
Compare this
To this
Or this
To this
As well as the level choices in Smash, it's as if they never played past the first level. Same could be said of Metroid. If Retro could help them with those designs, and maybe choose the levels, that would be great.
Tiny Kong is the shit. My favorite Kong besides Diddy and Funky.
Oh god, don't remind me.
It's such a shame that Nintendo really doesn't seem to understand why its Western properties are popular. Like someone mentioned a couple pages back, Metroid gets shafted with like 3 cave-based levels with rising lava and a level right from the start of Prime (which has no importance to anything), while every Donkey Kong level has a bamboo theme and takes place over a river for some reason.
It seems like Retro is the only part of Nintendo that gets those series right anymore, which is why I got excited that they did the DK levels in MK7. Please Sakurai, ask for some help!
Aonuma revealed last year that he never finished Zelda I. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sakurai hadn't even played some of the games the characters on the Smash roster came form (specifically Metroid, lol).
As people are saying in here, it seems like Retro actually cares. If they help out on Smash IV... godlike.
As people are saying in here, it seems like Retro actually cares. If they help out on Smash IV... godlike.
I do know for a fact that Sakurai plays many games. He often shows a picture of his latest purchase on twitter. I think the latest game he picked up was Soul Calibur V.
I am disagreeing with King Hippo and Sami. There is no way that King Hippo would be chosen over Little Mac, and Famicom/Advance Wars is basically non-existent in Japan so I doubt that series will ever get a playable character (Days of Ruin was never even released there) not to mention there is very low demand for a Famicom Wars character in the West.
The lack of Mega Man in the third-party character section is also very peculiar considering that Mega Man is the only third-party character that I have seen a strong demand for.
Garbage in, garbage out :trollface
Despite its middling popularity, there are something like 18 games in the Famicom Wars series spanning from the NES to the Wii. I think that it is deserving of a playable rep, and I don't even really care for the series. I don't think sami would fit well, as she is always depicted using machine guns which seems to clash with smash to me.
Andy would provide a great move set with his wrench as a weapon, or max as a brawler.
I count Famicom War/Advance Wars as the games developed by Intelligent Systems of which there are six (Famicom Wars, Super Famicom Wars, Advance Wars, Advance Wars 2, Advance Wars: Dual Strike, Advance Wars: Days of Ruin).
There is little demand for a character from this series, as well as from the fact that the COs don't actually fight, they simply command nameless units to do their bidding.
Well if you want a jungle level what other series will you use? However a factory based level would also work since that's a theme that has popped up in many of the DKC/L games. Would be cool if they used Sunset Shores lighting. Then again I did emphasise the importance of every character colour palettes being unique enough so they can be visible at a glance so black shadows would be the opposite of that.
I just hope DK gets some levels that I won't take out of random select next time.
I just hope DK gets some levels that I won't take out of random select next time.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Am I the only one who finds roster speculation extremely difficult to do when we have no sense of the types of additions they'll be going for?
To explain what I mean;
When Brawl's first teaser trailer came out they actively revealed a few things, and had some subtle information as well.
The characters they actively revealed were: Metaknight, Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Wario and Snake.
Now out of these 5 characters only one was a literal shoe-in for most (Wario)
and two were conditional shoe-ins (Pit & Metaknight)
(conditional meaning: these guys will make it in unless something crazy weird happens in the roster.)
I'd argue Zero Suit Samus & Snake were complete surprises to the fans. Zero Suit Samus being an "okay, didn't expect that"-surprise and Snake being a "WTF SNAKE WTF?!"-surprise.
But there's also a few conclusions I could draw from the trailer:
(and some of these ended up untrue, this is just how I felt)
1. Not a lot of new current-day Nintendo franchises would be introduced.
With the exception of Pit, (and Snake) every character in the trailer was essentially a secondary guy from another series.
Now we've known from the other smash games that they like introducing at least 1 "obscure retro character" like Ice climbers, which is why most people expected Pit to have that role. So Pit counts more as "the classic" than as a new substantial franchise in Smash.
The fact that only Snake, a 3rd party guy, represented a new Franchise made me feel like it essentially told us that Brawl would most likely focus on expanding the roster of existing franchises more so than adding a lot of totally new ones.
2. We'll have more than 1 3rd party guy, probably Sonic
When Snake was introduced I'm sure everyone was thinking who else would be in.
Most people expected 3 characters total, mostly Snake, Megaman and Sonic.
Everyone was right about sonic. And them revealing Snake so early is probably the largest reason I expected another 3rd party guy for sure.
3. Metroid & Female character choices might get shafted
When Zero Suit Samus showed up it actually really worried me.
As everyone surely remembers from Melee, smash isn't the type of fighting games where you should be overly optimistic about how large the roster size can get. You can argue that they save most of the good characters for the starting roster. And amongst the unlockables there are 2-3 real gems at most.
The fact that one of their first big reveals was Zero Suit Samus made me think two or three things.
1. This game's idea of expanding the female roster is just giving us a 2nd Samus.
2. This'll probably count as the 2nd character slot for metroid.
3. Apparently a 2nd Samus was one of the characters that'd work well as an epic first reveal in their eyes. What does this say about the roster on a whole?
It's a bit pessimistic for sure, but I'll get to this near the end.
3. The inclusion of metaknight made me feel like most franchises will have antagonists & pseudo-antagonists introduced.
In Melee we got some of the best known villains in Bowser & Ganondorf.
I'd like to argue that outside of actual Kirby players, Metaknight probably has some sense of obscurity.
Him being introduced made me feel like it was the time for non-mario and non-zelda secondary characters to get a larger chunk of the cast.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now contrasting this to the early melee reveals you can also look at the differences;
Melee introduced to us: Peach, Bowser, Shiek, Ice Climbers.
1 classic character is the most obvious similarity between the two games.
What stands out is that 2/4 characters introduced are very basic mario characters.
It didn't seem to introduce many new franchises (which rings true for the full roster imo) &
didn't even give a hint at the major clone-age we saw near the end of the roster.
One last thing that stood out to me when comparing Melee & Brawl's initial reveals is that they do have a similar structure:
1. girl (peach/ZSsamus)
2. familiar guy everyone should know (bowser/wario)
3. obscure retro character (IC/pit)
4. One slightly more obscure badass from popular franchise (Shiek/Metaknight)
And Brawl topped it off with Snake's unexpected reveal.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now after typing all that here's the point I wanted to get to: (lol sorry for the wall of text)
Roster predictions are all fine and dandy, but I do feel that there's a formula to first reveals. They want to show off familiar characters, but also badass new additions. Especially the reveal of Snake in Brawl's trailer felt like they just loved the idea of giving us a big blast of hype right from the start.
I think it's also fair to say that smash has a bit of a history of getting less interesting once it gets to unlockables. That's where the clones show up.
I also think that the first trailer can arguably set a tone for what to expect; if the first trailer for Smash 4 gives us Waluigi, Daisy, Zoroark and Tails ... that'd have fairly severe implications in terms of what sort of tone to expect with the game.
In contrast, if our first reveals are characters like Ridley, Saki and Takamaru. I could imagine a much more surprising final roster.
A lot of text about nothing lol, but largely the reason I can't imagine making a roster prediction before trailer #1.
To explain what I mean;
When Brawl's first teaser trailer came out they actively revealed a few things, and had some subtle information as well.
The characters they actively revealed were: Metaknight, Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Wario and Snake.
Now out of these 5 characters only one was a literal shoe-in for most (Wario)
and two were conditional shoe-ins (Pit & Metaknight)
(conditional meaning: these guys will make it in unless something crazy weird happens in the roster.)
I'd argue Zero Suit Samus & Snake were complete surprises to the fans. Zero Suit Samus being an "okay, didn't expect that"-surprise and Snake being a "WTF SNAKE WTF?!"-surprise.
But there's also a few conclusions I could draw from the trailer:
(and some of these ended up untrue, this is just how I felt)
1. Not a lot of new current-day Nintendo franchises would be introduced.
With the exception of Pit, (and Snake) every character in the trailer was essentially a secondary guy from another series.
Now we've known from the other smash games that they like introducing at least 1 "obscure retro character" like Ice climbers, which is why most people expected Pit to have that role. So Pit counts more as "the classic" than as a new substantial franchise in Smash.
The fact that only Snake, a 3rd party guy, represented a new Franchise made me feel like it essentially told us that Brawl would most likely focus on expanding the roster of existing franchises more so than adding a lot of totally new ones.
2. We'll have more than 1 3rd party guy, probably Sonic
When Snake was introduced I'm sure everyone was thinking who else would be in.
Most people expected 3 characters total, mostly Snake, Megaman and Sonic.
Everyone was right about sonic. And them revealing Snake so early is probably the largest reason I expected another 3rd party guy for sure.
3. Metroid & Female character choices might get shafted
When Zero Suit Samus showed up it actually really worried me.
As everyone surely remembers from Melee, smash isn't the type of fighting games where you should be overly optimistic about how large the roster size can get. You can argue that they save most of the good characters for the starting roster. And amongst the unlockables there are 2-3 real gems at most.
The fact that one of their first big reveals was Zero Suit Samus made me think two or three things.
1. This game's idea of expanding the female roster is just giving us a 2nd Samus.
2. This'll probably count as the 2nd character slot for metroid.
3. Apparently a 2nd Samus was one of the characters that'd work well as an epic first reveal in their eyes. What does this say about the roster on a whole?
It's a bit pessimistic for sure, but I'll get to this near the end.
3. The inclusion of metaknight made me feel like most franchises will have antagonists & pseudo-antagonists introduced.
In Melee we got some of the best known villains in Bowser & Ganondorf.
I'd like to argue that outside of actual Kirby players, Metaknight probably has some sense of obscurity.
Him being introduced made me feel like it was the time for non-mario and non-zelda secondary characters to get a larger chunk of the cast.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now contrasting this to the early melee reveals you can also look at the differences;
Melee introduced to us: Peach, Bowser, Shiek, Ice Climbers.
1 classic character is the most obvious similarity between the two games.
What stands out is that 2/4 characters introduced are very basic mario characters.
It didn't seem to introduce many new franchises (which rings true for the full roster imo) &
didn't even give a hint at the major clone-age we saw near the end of the roster.
One last thing that stood out to me when comparing Melee & Brawl's initial reveals is that they do have a similar structure:
1. girl (peach/ZSsamus)
2. familiar guy everyone should know (bowser/wario)
3. obscure retro character (IC/pit)
4. One slightly more obscure badass from popular franchise (Shiek/Metaknight)
And Brawl topped it off with Snake's unexpected reveal.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now after typing all that here's the point I wanted to get to: (lol sorry for the wall of text)
Roster predictions are all fine and dandy, but I do feel that there's a formula to first reveals. They want to show off familiar characters, but also badass new additions. Especially the reveal of Snake in Brawl's trailer felt like they just loved the idea of giving us a big blast of hype right from the start.
I think it's also fair to say that smash has a bit of a history of getting less interesting once it gets to unlockables. That's where the clones show up.
I also think that the first trailer can arguably set a tone for what to expect; if the first trailer for Smash 4 gives us Waluigi, Daisy, Zoroark and Tails ... that'd have fairly severe implications in terms of what sort of tone to expect with the game.
In contrast, if our first reveals are characters like Ridley, Saki and Takamaru. I could imagine a much more surprising final roster.
A lot of text about nothing lol, but largely the reason I can't imagine making a roster prediction before trailer #1.
I would LOVE for there to be an Advance Wars character. It certainly deserves it.
The series has been with Nintendo from their first console
Is one of the earliest strategy games
Has a ton of great characters to use
Unique style in the Nintendo universe (modern setting, lighthearted take on war)
Awesome upbeat rock soundtracks
And Snake proved that gun-based movesets are possible with resorting to bullets
But, like Snakey said, if Japan doesn't care for it, there is basically no chance. Sonic only got in because of a massive, massive push from the US, and I just can't see that happening for AW.
NeonZ
Member
Eh, although those were nice, I hope they concentrate on other aspects of the game. The effort they'd put on original models for trophies could just go to alternate costumes (which also would be trophies anyway).
An HD one gazillion polygon model of Wanda in more important than costumes. ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ
Most people were expecting Wario, Pit, and Meta Knight to be in Smash Bros. 3 (back when it was called that). Nobody was expecting Zero Suit Samus and Snake though.
Also, there is no way Wario is a secondary guy. He was a representative of his own series. Wario has two series under his belt, Wario Land and WarioWare. So there was a new series representative for Nintendo given in the Brawl unveil.
I have talked about this pattern for the "unveil" characters before:
1. Villainous guy that was seen as a shoe-in for the previous game and is massively popular (Bowser, Wario)
2. The Girl (Peach, Zero Suit Samus)
3. Retro Resurrection (Ice Climbers, Pit)
4. Cool Side Character (Sheik, Meta Knight)
5. The Guest (Snake)
I can think of the choices they would use for all of those arch-types with the exception of #4 (Cool Side Character).
I personally think we will see four newcomers for Smash 4's unveil, though if we only get one newcomer, it would probably be Mega Man.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I know Wario was in as a representative of his own franchise, I think Sakurai even mentioned he probably wouldn't have added him if it wasn't for Warioware. (which is stupid because Wario's had plenty of non-warioware games based around himself)
But I consider him secondary in the same way I consider Yoshi, Luigi and DK secondary.
They're from the expanded marioverse and count both as their own franchise & as a mario character at the same time. These guys tend to have additional recognisability simply due to being associated to Mario.
To me it's exactly the same as Tingle being added under his own symbol because he's had his own game. He's still a Zelda character in origins.
Hillzagold
Banned
I was wondering, what third parties are likeliest to lend their characters to Nintendo for a Smash game? I'm not asking for a fan perspective, I'm asking for a company perspective, either based on guesses or actual company experience. Are Konami and Sega likely to lend Sonic and Snake again? Is Square likely to lend anyone? What about Ubisoft lending an assassin, or hell, maybe LucasArts lending Darth Vader and Yoda again?
DK is secondary? He's the guy who started the whole universe off. Everyone is secondary to him! Does Mario have a set of bongo drums? Nope.
UbiSoft would lend a Rabbid in return for Just Dance 4 being showcased at E3 for 65 hours.
Square could lend a Dragon Quest character seeing as Nintendo has helped them promote the series in the West. But IX and X don't have standardised protagonists so who they choose to represent DQ I have no idea. Slime would be better off as an assist I'm afraid.
I know LA allowed the Super StarWars games on the VC, but have they really been that close to Nintendo in recent years. Then again they lend out Darth Vader and Yoda to just about anyone who asks.
I hated how Sakurai ignored all the Wario Land series. He puts all kinds of obcure stuff and then Wario Land doesn't exist. Samurai can only redeem himself if he adds a Wario Land stage
or I'll be sad
Togglesworlh
Banned
DICKS AHOY
Banned
This explains a lot. Wario Ware Twisted is one of my favorite games and I thought putting Wario in his flamboyant biker gear was a good and unexpected way to separate him from Mario, but he didn't feel *anything* like how he does in his platformers, which in regards to movesets should've taken preference over the Ware games (besides being able to ride his motorbike and having Wario Man as his FS). Did they even have his shoulder-barge in there? Didn't help Wario Land Shake It came out not too long after Brawl to emphasize just how 'off' he felt in the latter.
I don't really like the WarioWare games, and I wish they would make a game Wario Land 4 style again. I know they made Shake it, but it's still not the same style as Wario Land 4, not by a long shot.
Wario to me is a lot cooler when he has more of a purpose than expelling gas out his back end.
Wario to me is a lot cooler when he has more of a purpose than expelling gas out his back end.
From a stage perspective Wario Ware has a more distinctive look. I love the Wario Land games but setting wise they haven't really got anywhere recognisable that screams Wario. The SS Teacup? His castle? The Golden Pyramid?
As for moves, I'm surprised they didn't take much inspiration from his games. I'd post an image I made during the Dojo period but I deleted it off my old Photobucket account and I don't have access to the original at the moment. Maybe later.
Forward smash A.
Hillzagold
Banned
Wait.
Why don't more people ask? Were they really that bad in Soul Caliber? I played it twice but they seemed fun enough.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Sakurai made it clear that no characters who come from outside of video games will end up Smash Bros..
With regards to Ubisoft characters, as obvious a pick as Rayman is, the Prince and Sam Fisher would be just as welcome, IMO. They both featured heavily on the Gamecube- heck, the Cube versions of the PoP games were pretty much the best versions- and it'd be fucking awesome to see Sam Fisher fight Snake.
With regards to Ubisoft characters, as obvious a pick as Rayman is, the Prince and Sam Fisher would be just as welcome, IMO. They both featured heavily on the Gamecube- heck, the Cube versions of the PoP games were pretty much the best versions- and it'd be fucking awesome to see Sam Fisher fight Snake.
I'm glad, it's much better that way.
The Xtortionist
Member
Needs the following stages
Metroid
Artifact Temple
Sanctuary Fortress
DK
Gangplank Galleon
Snow Barrel Blast
Bramble Scramble
Neoriceisgood
Member
What should I apologize for?
Well I was making to a reference to that fact that in the UK we have a PC store using Darth Vader and a mobile phone company using Yoda in their ads. Why? I have no idea.
Barrow Roll
Member
Smash hackers do what Sakurai don't.
New Wario Land inspired moves include a shoulder charge side-B, a butt slam Dair and a ground pound DSmash (not shown in the video).
I don't dislike Sakurai but I think there should be more people making decisions. Smash Bros. is too important to left things just because Sakurai doesn't appreciate them.
NeonZ
Member
Sega is very likely. They've made two extra Mario & Sonic games after all. Not sure about Konami, but I don't think the situation changed since last time.
As for other ones... Koei probably would lend their characters considering their various recent cooperations with Nintendo, but I don't think Nintendo itself would bother with them. Capcom is really the one with most significant franchises for something like Smash, but I don't see Capcom lending them without something big in exchange, so they might just not bother.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Capcom will give them Megaman on the condition that he's DLC and Capcom gets the revenue.
Black-Wind
Member
Well then you should be happy to know that he said he's allowing members of the team to help with balancing and stuff.
Also, I fully expect a trailer this year's E3. Noway Nintendo is just gonna sit on their hands after talking up SSB4. They're giving Sora all this time and all these resources because they have decided that they're a heavy hitter for the company.
Plus, as it was pointed out ... that was Brawl's timeline.
On a side note ... I wonder how the new tech may effect things with Smash. When asked about DLC for brawl Sakurai wasn't against it/ was willing to do it but given the lack of that feature on the Wii it didn't matter. Now, there shouldn't be any "forbidden 7" for SSB4 because they can complete work and make it DLC. Maybe that could result in a shorter dev-cycle focused on making a solid foundation and adding content over time. That type of thing depends on what the dev team and the pub wants I guess.
The Xtortionist
Member
Should be pro Melee and Brawl players.
I only heard about the balancing stuff, if he allows other people suggestions I'm happy.
NeonZ
Member
Agreed. Aside from that, the statement about only working on Smash after finishing Kid Icarus was said before Kid Icarus was delayed. Meanwhile, Sora had been hiring people specifically for Smash. It makes no sense to delay Smash's development until after Icarus was completely finished, up to bug testing.
Have any of you guys tried playing Smash Bros with a Dpad for movement on Dolphin?
I usually use my 360 Pad, but the PS3 Pad has a much more comfortable position for me to use the Dpad, so i'm using that currently.
I have to say I may actually prefer using a Dpad for movement over Analog. Everything is way more accurate for me now. I got the idea to use this after I was playing Brawl on my Wii the other day with just the Wiimote.
I hope in the next game they add where you can map the Dpad for movement as well.
I usually use my 360 Pad, but the PS3 Pad has a much more comfortable position for me to use the Dpad, so i'm using that currently.
I have to say I may actually prefer using a Dpad for movement over Analog. Everything is way more accurate for me now. I got the idea to use this after I was playing Brawl on my Wii the other day with just the Wiimote.
I hope in the next game they add where you can map the Dpad for movement as well.
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