Alligatorjandro
Banned
Gronk isnt injury prone.He had some freak injuries that kept him from playing.He had the best season for a TE ever.Gronk is a top 3 offensive player.
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NFL Offseason Thread 2013 - Here comes the wait
- Thread starter DeaconKnowledge
- Start date
Demaryius Thomas has better numbers than Julio and Fitzgerald. Comparable numbers to Marshall (BM = 1,508yds 11 TDs vs DT = 1434yds 10 TDs).
You can't use "showing miles" when defending a guy with brain issues.
Futurevoid
Member
The fact that I can rifle 10 off from the top of my head and we can debate their merits is the underlying point. You asked for 10. I gave them to you. Ask someone else you may get 10 others (as they are already starting too!). The point isn't to come to consensus as we're likely not going to reach it so you guys can save the "but you forgot my guy who's better!"
. You feel Percy is a top 10 offensive talent. That's fair, but.. (here it comes) it's debateable and whether he was worth what you gave up is also debateable until he proves it on the field for 16 games.
"Guaranteeing" that he's better than anyone in the draft? An guess at best. That's what the Seahawks are betting/hoping for.
You can add Roddy White to that list also
Put Decker up there as well.
You're just jealous because Foster runs more than 2 yards before he falls down.
He just needs to eat some damn steak/brisket/hot links and he will be fine. Oh and Kubiak needs to not be a prideful bitch and run Tate more!
He got run down by Rob Ninkovich in the playoffs. He had a gear in 2011 that he just didn't have in 2012. Maybe it was the lack of a healthy diet, but he was all around off
Futurevoid
Member
We're already past top 15 with the names mentioned. Maybe Harvin can make Top 20?
The fact that I can rifle 10 off from the top of my head and we can debate their merits is the underlying point. You asked for 10. I gave them to you. Ask someone else you may get 10 others (as they are already starting too!). The point isn't to come to consensus as we're likely not going to reach it so you guys can save the "but you forgot my guy who's better!"
You feel Percy is a top 10 offensive talent. That's fair, but.. (here it comes) it's debateable and whether he was worth what you gave up is also debateable until he proves it on the field for 16 games.
"Guaranteeing" that he's better than anyone in the draft? An guess at best. That's what the Seahawks are betting/hoping.
So you would say that Harvin is not an elite offensive talent? This is why I asked where the threshold for being considered elite is. It's a nebulous term at best and meaningless at worst since players don't perform the same on different teams or in different offenses. Never mind the fact that FMT is only looking at him as a WR when he isn't a pure WR.
And Harvin was clearly better in college than any of the guys in this draft, so unless one of the guys in this draft makes a huge leap, I'd be very surprised if any of them were better than Harvin since he's already proven he can do it at the pro level.
Same place I'm putting him now.
Edit: Eric Decker and Roddy White above Harvin? Am I reading this right? :jnc
As far as actually production? Yes. Potential? Maybe not.
We can all sit here and say he's an elite talent, but if that talent isn't put to use on the field, actual production is what they will be measured on. Decker's last year was better than any year Harvin has put out, in receiving. If you add in Harvin's rushing he edges out Decker slightly in yards but nowhere close to TDs.
Was just talking to a friend about the same thing.he is a vikes fan and even he is wondering why they don't try and get a qb instead.
Futurevoid
Member
I agree with you that it's a completely nebulous and at times whimsical phrase that gets thrown around far too much. Define elite for me and I'll tell you whether I think he fits into that mold.
The problem is what "elite" means varies from person to person. Good luck with creating consensus on that one.
How do you think Harvin's production would compare to Decker's if he had Peyton throwing to him?
Now that I think about it, I would define elite as having an impact on games that could not be replaced by anyone outside the top 5 at your position. Even that is fairly nebulous but I think that gets across what I'm trying to say.
I highly doubt there are 5 slot/utility guys that have a bigger impact on the game than Harvin does.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
you honestly believe that he is a top 10 offensive player in the league? lolololol. i guess i won't hate on you too much since he is on your team now and you have to support him but there is no way any unbiased fan would call him a top 10 offensive player. i honestly can't believe any unbiased person would call him a top 10 WR either but whatever, we'll see!
Alligatorjandro
Banned
Harvin is a top 5 talent.Player?Maybe not.But he has the talent.
This. Listen to the gator.
Similar to what he did in Minnesota, and I'm not saying that to fit my argument. Harvin would likely fit into the slot in this offense. He's not as big as either Decker or DT so he's not going to be the primary targets. He'd be what Stokely was, or what Welker will be. Ranging from 800 - 1200 yards, 5-10 TDs. That's my guess.
He's not a WR in the sense of a Megatron or Roddy White or Julio Jones or AJ Green or Larry Fitzgerald. That's what he's listed as, but he's a slot/utility guy, and that's where he is his best.
Harvin's athleticism alone would allow him to eclipse Stokely's and probably Welker's numbers assuming the same amount of targets. He's the best YAC guy in football.
Well he's not Stafford, so the ball gets spread around. Yes, if Peypey to BeyBey was like Fatass to Megatron I could see those numbers.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
but what is the point of playing this "well if he was with peyton!" game? he's not with peyton. he won't be with peyton in seattle. you are what you are as a player. reggie bush has all the physical talent in the world. guess that means he is elite!
AngmarsKing701
Member
We're numb at this point. Steelers going down hard, this is just another round in the chamber.
Actually Welker is the league leader in YAC. 2011 and 2012.
Russell Wilson is by far a better player than Christian Ponder. Are you implying a QB's ability does not have an affect on a WR's production? Larry Fitzgerald?
I didn't say he was the league leader!
AngmarsKing701
Member
Beyond :jnc
Best = League Leader? Is there another interpretation? Welker has been right at the very top for the last 5 or 6 years.
Wilson is one of the ten best QBs in football. Huge step up from Ponder.
You can do better than that.
We're obviously not going to agree, but comparing stats as the be-all end-all when one guy has missed games and one hasn't isn't really going to convince me. Harvin is a superior athlete to Welker, I don't see how you can debate that.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
a team has everything to do with whether someone succeeds or fails. my point is that you can make this argument with just about any player in the history of the league. all of these guys have physical talent or else they wouldn't be in the NFL. maybe if player X played with hall of fame QB Y he would've had a better career. instead he played with a shitty QB and a shitty team and that was the end of the story.
instead of living in an alternate universe where we analyze if barry sanders would've had twice as many yards if he played behind the cowboys line or if dan marino would have won a superbowl if he was QB for the 80's 49ers or whatever else why not just call a spade a spade and say that whatever you did and whatever you are in the NFL is what you are
Futurevoid
Member
...and now your parsing. You didn't ask to list 10 better slot/utility players when this started. You (quite vehemently I might add) asked for 10 better offensive players excluding QB's.
You asked for that comparison to be made. I'm honestly not trying to be prickish, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.
And I said half of them were debatable. I didn't move any goalposts, I just disagreed.
Then what the fuck is the purpose of having cake?! I'm eating this fucking cake!
Elfforkusu
Member
Hard to me to put Harvin on a top 10 list for anything, unless it's "dudes who get debilitating migraines".
e: Actually, he's on the top 10 list for "wide receivers who went to Florida". So there's one!
e: Actually, he's on the top 10 list for "wide receivers who went to Florida". So there's one!
What number is he on that list?
It's not near as far fetched. I think Harvin's one of the top talents at WR, like how Desean Jackson is. He's better than Jackson, though. Still has some untapped potential since he won't have guys like Jackson/Webb/Ponder throwing him the ball.
We've had crazy comparisons in here, for instance: Pierre Garçon > Larry Fitzgerald
Futurevoid
Member
You're a loyal Raiders fan, Rors. How can I deny you cake? I can't.
*thinks about posting picture of Zombie Al to completely destroy your appetite*
Elfforkusu
Member
9th, right behind Dwayne Wade.
Regardless of how you rate Harvin, and despite me hating the seachickens, Harvin will be of good use to Seattle. Was a good pick up. Seattle is making good moves all around. Much can be said about what that means for 2014, but fuck 2014 for right now. And fuck the seachickens for getting stronger.
This is why I am so flabbergasted. The dude had zilch on offense in Minnesota aside from Peterson and the main facilitator of his production (catching passes) was awful - PLUS he had injury issues and still managed to put up very good numbers when healthy.
Now he's coming to a team with a very good QB, a comparable running game, and better receiving talent around him, and people are acting like his numbers are going to be same as they were in Minnesota.
Athleticism != Production.
Based on numbers, there are guys that are better than Harvin right now. He does have more potential than other guys due to that athleticism, but he doesn't apply it as effectively as less athletic guys do.
With that being said, Welker is more effective at applying athleticism in order to produce.
Welker's best year is considerably better than anything Harvin has produced in a full season. Even if you extrapolate last year's production over 16 games, he doesn't come close to Welker's best year.
I think you are underestimating Welker's ability to produce barring the gifts of elite athleticism.
It's equivalent to saying Jeff George is a top ten quarterback. All the potential in the world doesn't mean shit until you prove it.
Can Harvin be the absolute best non-QB in the league? I think so, absolutely yes. Has he been in that class during his career? No.