• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

NFL Offseason Thread 2015 |OT| All of our teams suck!

T

Tom Penny

Member
Godslay said:
So the judgment criteria is whatever we determine it to be based on the position?

A QB has to be rings and stats?

Everyone else is just stats?

I understand that in general the QB is more valuable a position, but it's still a team game as displayed by QBs that have won it in the past.

I guess actual production is less valued than team success. Somewhat strange when determining the actual best at a position. Weird double standard.

I can buy the rings + stats > stats alone in the NBA. The value of an individual is greatly inflated in that situation. Therefore we can see that a superstar will have a disproportionate effect on championship runs. In the NFL even with an elite passer, the balance is shifted to the team as whole. Especially in the post-season where typically the more balanced teams survive and less balanced teams do not.

It's perfectly displayed by both Elway's and Brady's careers. Elway carried poor teams to the early Superbowls and they were promptly dismantled. When an actual balanced team was built around him, they broke through despite Elway playing the role of a semi-elite game manager.

Same for Brady. Early on he was basically an semi-elite game manager. Team won 3 Spygate era SBs. Fast forward to the losses and they were less balanced (Brady became elite in this time period thanks to Moss), and dismantled by a more balanced, less talented team. They won it this year with Brady having Stafford level stats, and being a more balanced team as a whole.

I guess if one wants to give Brady the GOAT status on that, that's fine with me. If you want to say who is the better QB at the position based on production at the postion, an argument can be made otherwise.

Most people don't differentiate the two. Which is fine.
Click to expand...

What does all of this have to do with WR's? They aren't even in the same ballpark of importance as a QB. Nice switch of topic though..
 
M

Man God

Non-Canon Member
It's crazy how many do over run the clock back teams we might have next year.

Denver with the Texans coaching staff.

Bills with Rex probably bringing back the Sanchize.
 
G

Godslay

Banned
Bread said:
Revis is only 29. Peyton was a Colt for what, 16 years? Not the same situation at all.
Click to expand...

Right now it's roughly proportional.

Manning has a total of 17 years. 14 with Indy, 3 with Den. ~82% of career with Indy ~18% with Den. Revis has 8 total years. 6 with NYJ 75% of playing career. 12.5% with Tampa and NE.

If he stays with the Pats then one would have an argument, but at this point it's not really based in any reality.

Tom Penny said:
What does all of this have to do with WR's? They aren't even in the same ballpark of importance as a QB. Nice switch of topic though..
Click to expand...

You just have a flawed perspective when evaluating value relative to positions. You place more importance on team achievements rather than production at said position. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
 
B

Bread

Banned
Godslay said:
Right now it's roughly proportional.

Manning has a total of 17 years. 14 with Indy, 3 with Den. ~82% of career with Indy ~18% with Den. Revis has 8 total years. 6 with NYJ 75% of playing career. 12.5% with Tampa and NE.

If he stays with the Pats then one would have an argument, but at this point it's not really based in any reality.
Click to expand...
I mean...that was my point. I want him to stay and win another ring so we can rub it in jets fans faces.
 
T

Tom Penny

Member
Godslay said:
You just have a flawed perspective when evaluating value relative to positions. You place more importance on team achievements rather than production at said position. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
Click to expand...

While you like to discount winning and use production even though some QB's have played with vastly superior talent at the skill positions..to each his own.
 
G

Godslay

Banned
Tom Penny said:
While you like to discount winning and use production even though some QB's have played with vastly superior talent at the skill positions..to each his own.
Click to expand...

So who that has ever played for Indy or Denver with Manning is vastly superior to Gronk, Moss, Welker, or Hernandez?

In terms of both potential and production?

Maybe Harrison, but he's not better than Moss. DT is no Moss that's for sure.
 
J

jbug617

Banned
Man God said:
Even better.
Click to expand...

going by this, seems like it's just the bust with the players name and the teams he played on.

nfl_hall_04busts.jpg
 
T

Tom Penny

Member
Godslay said:
So who that has ever played for Indy or Denver with Manning is vastly superior to Gronk, Moss, Welker, or Hernandez?

In terms of both potential and production?

Maybe Harrison, but he's not better than Moss. DT is no Moss that's for sure.
Click to expand...

Yep. Brady and Manning have played with comparable skill players throughout their careers :jnc
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
bob_arctor said:
Was he dirt cheap? Somebody was going to give him another shot. I don't follow the Rex thing though--you're saying Rex doesn't care about character/encourages these types? I agree to the extent that the Jets seemed like undisciplined fucks plenty of times on the field.
Click to expand...

Please, we signed Icognito because we had the worst guard play in the league last year. Has nothing to do with the Bully stuff and besides, both sides in the issue made mistakes, people make mistakes, he deserves another shot. If he continues to be a thug he's gone without so much as a goodbye.

The Bills need people with an attitude, last year it seemed time and time again that nobody on our team gave a shit about winning, nobody had any heart. I saw Fred Jackson screaming on the sidelines trying to get his boys hyped only to be ignored and walk off in disgust.

Has absolutely nothing to do with Rex and everything to do with the fact that we have no guards.
 
G

Godslay

Banned
Tom Penny said:
Yep. Brady and Manning have played with comparable skill players throughout their careers :jnc
Click to expand...

Well you can laugh all you want, you still didn't answer the question.

I will take this as you are in agreement with me.

Brady's Top 5 receivers in terms of TDs:
1. Gronk
2. Moss
3. Welker
4. Branch
5. Hernandez

Manning's Top 5 in terms of TDs:
1. Harrison
2. Wayne
3. Clark
4. Thomas
5. Pollard

Brady has had probably the two most dominate players at their respective positions to throw to in recent NFL history.

Harrison while great isn't as good as Moss, nor as dominate. Same for Wayne and DT.

Clark is nowhere near Gronk.

Hernandez was nearly as talented as Gronk, and Brady has a prime non-scrambled brains Welker.

Manning has played with talented receivers, but to say Brady has not isn't based in fact.

It just displays that Brady started out as a semi-elite game manager, progressed to an elite QB with talent around him. While Manning was an elite passer from the get go, and took off even more so when surround by talent.

You can go ahead and list out Brady's no name receivers that he had thrown to. Manning's list is just as long, if not longer. Not to mention just about every other category or stat with the exception of team playoff or Superbowl wins, and yes that includes 1 and dones.

:jnc

zychi said:
:jnc at GodSlay thinking Manning and Brady had equally skilled players throughout their career.
Click to expand...

No offense, but we've all seen your critical thinking skills on display in this thread.

I think we can all say that some of us are not playing with equally skilled thought processes in our GAF posting careers.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
Plus you have to factor in 08-10' for Manning when he was throwing to such dynamic #1 receivers such as Austin Collie, Blair White, Pierre Garson and Anthony Gonzalez. Or his dynamic RB group that never had a player that was even half as good as the meh that is Blount.

Manning had amazing talent for a few years, but then he had Reggie Wayne (who was oft injured) and nobody else. Peyton made no-names famous just like Brady.
 
A

Alligatorjandro

Banned
The thing is though that Manning always has great receivers. Always. And when Moss went to the Patriots everyone thought he was washed up, so it's not like he was in his prime.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
Alligatorjandro said:
The thing is though that Manning always has great receivers. Always. And when Moss went to the Patriots everyone thought he was washed up, so it's not like he was in his prime.
Click to expand...

Except that's not true. He's had Harrison, Wayne, Clark, and a bunch of meh. Just like Brady has had Gronk, Welker, Moss, Troy Brown and Hernandez and a bunch of meh.

Both have had dynamic talents and a bunch of scrubs.
 
R

rando14

Member
Himynameischris said:
Pretty good, I'm eating lucky charms while watching star trek so I can't complain! How are you Rando!!
Click to expand...

Same old stuff, studying in the library!! Trying to learn about cardiac output and hemodynamics and whatnot!!

How about you man, how's school going? You should be getting close to finishing pre-reqs for physics right?
 
T

Tom Penny

Member
Godslay said:
Well you can laugh all you want, you still didn't answer the question.

I will take this as you are in agreement with me.

Brady's Top 5 receivers in terms of TDs:
1. Gronk
2. Moss
3. Welker
4. Branch
5. Hernandez

Manning's Top 5 in terms of TDs:
1. Harrison
2. Wayne
3. Clark
4. Thomas
5. Pollard

Brady has had probably the two most dominate players at their respective positions to throw to in recent NFL history.

Harrison while great isn't as good as Moss, nor as dominate. Same for Wayne and DT.

Clark is nowhere near Gronk.

Hernandez was nearly as talented as Gronk, and Brady has a prime non-scrambled brains Welker.

Manning has played with talented receivers, but to say Brady has not isn't based in fact.

It just displays that Brady started out as a semi-elite game manager, progressed to an elite QB with talent around him. While Manning was an elite passer from the get go, and took off even more so when surround by talent.

You can go ahead and list out Brady's no name receivers that he had thrown to. Manning's list is just as long, if not longer. Not to mention just about every other category or stat with the exception of team playoff or Superbowl wins, and yes that includes 1 and dones.

:jnc



No offense, but we've all seen your critical thinking skills on display in this thread.

I think we can all say that some of us are not playing with equally skilled thought processes in our GAF posting careers.
Click to expand...

Moss Welker Hernandez and Gronk combined haven't played as many season with Brady as just Wayne and Harrison with Manning..It's also funny is that Welker is on the Pats list but Manning's team is so stacked he's a bit player...
 
R

rando14

Member
Alligatorjandro said:
The thing is though that Manning always has great receivers. Always. And when Moss went to the Patriots everyone thought he was washed up, so it's not like he was in his prime.
Click to expand...

Did you know that Super Bowl-losing quarterback Russell wilson had Doug Baldwin as his best receiver
 
A

Alligatorjandro

Banned
Frozenprince said:
Except that's not true. He's had Harrison, Wayne, Clark, and a bunch of meh. Just like Brady has had Gronk, Welker, Moss, Troy Brown and Hernandez and a bunch of meh.

Both have had dynamic talents and a bunch of scrubs.
Click to expand...
Before Moss, who was the best receiver he had? Troy Brown? Branch? While good, they were no where near as good as Wayne or Harrison.
 
H

Himynameischris

Member
rando14 said:
Same old stuff, studying in the library!! Trying to learn about cardiac output and hemodynamics and whatnot!!

How about you man, how's school going? You should be getting close to finishing pre-reqs for physics right?
Click to expand...

That's awesome!! We have to go celebrate when we're both Drs!!! :D Yeah I start classes this Monday and this summer I'll apply to the physics program at CSUN, hopefully I get in!!
 
G

Godslay

Banned
Alligatorjandro said:
The thing is though that Manning always has great receivers. Always. And when Moss went to the Patriots everyone thought he was washed up, so it's not like he was in his prime.
Click to expand...

The thing is though that Brady always had a great team around him. Always. And when Brady lost to the Giants the defense couldn't help him, so nobody blames those losses on him.
 
Z

zychi

Banned
Weird how the Bronco's/Peyton fans are leaving off Demariyus Thomas, Julius Thomas (who I argue is as good as Gronk when healthy), Marshall Faulk, Edge, Eric Decker, and a Garcon who was a stud when he was with Peyton

Selective choice I guess to make their argument better.

Nevermind that Moss was considered washed up in Oak when Belichick grabbed him.

Add that Peyton was always in a division that was terrible until he went to Den, played in a dome where his players benefited from no weather, and the Colts pumped noise into the stadium to mess with the opponents.

Clearly Peyton was riddled was terrible talent
 
S

Striker

Member
^ Thomas as good as Gronk? Lol, what are you smoking?

He had Faulk/Edge for the first half of his career, Joseph Addai/Dominic Rhodes/Donald Brown the other half.

Was his division any worse than the AFCE? The Titans and Jags had playoff years several times throughout the 2000's. The Jets sprinkled in their own, but it was hardly a competitive division there.

Frozenprince said:
Except that's not true. He's had Harrison, Wayne, Clark, and a bunch of meh. Just like Brady has had Gronk, Welker, Moss, Troy Brown and Hernandez and a bunch of meh.

Both have had dynamic talents and a bunch of scrubs.
Click to expand...
Peypey got a 1,000+, 10 TD year out of Brandon Stokley.

Also got some mileage out of Anthony Gonzalez and Ben Utecht as starters for few years. They were nobodies before and after.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
It's no coincidence that when the Pats had more than just a dynamic offense is when they won.

The best TEAM wins the SB. If the Seahawks had better wideouts we're not even having this conversation because they win handily. But they didn't have the ability to beat anybody other than Kyle Arrington and it showed.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
zychi said:
Weird how the Bronco's/Peyton fans are leaving off Demariyus Thomas, Julius Thomas (who I argue is as good as Gronk when healthy), Marshall Faulk, Edge, Eric Decker, and a Garcon who was a stud when he was with Peyton

Selective choice I guess to make their argument better.

Nevermind that Moss was considered washed up in Oak when Belichick grabbed him.

Add that Peyton was always in a division that was terrible until he went to Den, played in a dome where his players benefited from no weather, and the Colts pumped noise into the stadium to mess with the opponents.

Clearly Peyton was riddled was terrible talent
Click to expand...

Julius Thomas isn't even in the same stratosphere as Gronk. ANYBODY who knows football can tell you that. Peyton made him and he'll be mediocre without him. I guarantee that. He had Marshall Faulk for his rookie year, he had Edge until 2001 when he blew up his knee and lost all his lateral agility (at which point he's equivalent to a guy like Corey Dillon), Garson was what he is now with the Colts, a deep threat with no hands. Decker is a #3 that produced huge numbers because of the offense (Peyton's offense).
 
T

Tom Penny

Member
Godslay said:
The thing is though that Brady always had a great team around him. Always. And when Brady lost to the Giants the defense couldn't help him, so nobody blames those losses on him.
Click to expand...

It sucks that the Broncos only led the league in Pro Bowlers this year. Imagine what they could do if they had talent on the roster.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
Tom Penny said:
It sucks that the Broncos only led the league in Pro Bowlers this year. Imagine what they could do if they had talent on the roster.
Click to expand...

All-pro is a significantly better measuring stick. Anybody can be a pro-bowler, it's a popularity contest more than indicative of skill. Andy Dalton was a pro-bowler.
 
T

Tom Penny

Member
Frozenprince said:
All-pro is a significantly better measuring stick. Anybody can be a pro-bowler, it's a popularity contest more than indicative of skill. Andy Dalton was a pro-bowler.
Click to expand...

Just a bunch of Dalton's

Peyton Manning
DeMarcus Ware
Ryan Clady
Von Miller
Demaryius Thomas
Aqib Talib
Julius Thomas
T.J. Ward
Chris Harris Jr.
 
C

Colasante

Member
Tom Penny said:
Just a bunch of Dalton's

Peyton Manning
DeMarcus Ware
Ryan Clady
Von Miller
Demaryius Thomas
Aqib Talib
Julius Thomas
T.J. Ward
Chris Harris Jr.
Click to expand...

That would go a long way toward explaining their performance against the Colts. It's not their fault, they're just a bunch of Daltons.
 
G

Godslay

Banned
zychi said:
Weird how the Bronco's/Peyton fans are leaving off Demariyus Thomas, Julius Thomas (who I argue is as good as Gronk when healthy), Marshall Faulk, Edge, Eric Decker, and a Garcon who was a stud when he was with Peyton

Selective choice I guess to make their argument better.

Nevermind that Moss was considered washed up in Oak when Belichick grabbed him.

Add that Peyton was always in a division that was terrible until he went to Den, played in a dome where his players benefited from no weather, and the Colts pumped noise into the stadium to mess with the opponents.

Clearly Peyton was riddled was terrible talent
Click to expand...

For the record I didn't leave off DT.

Faulk played for how long with Peyton 10 years? Try 1 with 4 TDs? What about Garcon? Edge was good, and Decker was always a #2 WR.

AFCE was pretty weak for a long time as well, not to mention his stats grew when he went to Denver outside of your bubble boy theory.

I wasn't insulting you, just my observations. If you took it as an insult, that's too bad.

Here's the entire list for both guys.

Peyton:
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Dallas Clark
Edgerrin James
Demaryius Thomas
Marcus Pollard
Brandon Stokley
Joseph Addai
Eric Decker
Jacob Tamme
Ken Dilger
Jerome Pathon
Dominic Rhodes
Wes Welker
Terrence WilkinsT
Pierre Garcon
Austin Collie
Julius Thomas
E Sanders
Anthony Gonzales
Knowshon Moreno
Marshall Faulk
Ben Utecht
Troy Walters
E.G. Green
Bryan Fletcher
Torrance Small
Qadry Ismail
Ronnie Hillman
Joel Dressen
Blair White
CJ Anderson
Gijon Robinson
Donald Brown
Montee Ball
Willis McGahee
Ricky Williams
Andre Caldwell
Aaron Moorehead
Tom Santi
James Mungro
Virgil Green
Javarris James
Trevor Insley
Joe Davenport
Lamont Warren
Mike Hart
Matthew Willis
Jim Finn
Lance Ball
Kenton Keith
C Thorpe
Chad Simpson
D Aromashodu
Paul Shields
Brody Eldridge
J Thompson
Ricky Pruehl
Ben Hartsock
Trindon Holiday
Mike Roberg
Tony Simmons
Jermaine Wiggins
Keith Elias
Hank Baskett
Scott Greene
Brandon James
Cody Latimer
Detron Smith
Chris Gronkowski
Drew Haddad
Ray Carthon
Kevin McDougal
Clifton Dawson
Craig Heyward
Jacob Hester
Bradford Banta
Steve McKinney
Brad Pyatt
Dan Klecko
Mitch Unrein
Luke Lawton
Zack Crockett
Peyton Manning
Charlie Johnson

Brady:
Deion Branch
Troy Brown
Brandon Lafell
Kevin Faulk
Christian Fauria
David Givens
Daniel Graham
Rob Gronkowski
Aaron Hernandez
Randy Moss
David Patten
Ben Watson
Wes Welker
Sam Aiken
Danny Amendola
Tom Ashworth
Chris Baker
Kyle Brady
Reche Caldwell
Larry Centers
Cam Cleeland
Alge Crumpler
Andre' Davis
Corey Dillon
Aaron Dobson
Tim Dwight
Marc Edwards
Heath Evans
Doug Gabriel
Terry Glenn
Donald Hayes
Chad Jackson
Bethel Johnson
Chad Johnson
Charles Johnson
Brandon Lloyd
Laurence Maroney
Matthew Mulligan
Patrick Pass
Antowain Smith
Donte Stallworth
Brandon Tate
David Thomas
Kenbrell Thompkins
Shane Vereen
Dedric Ward
Jermaine Wiggins
Danny Woodhead

Alligatorjandro said:
So we're going from better receivers to better teams now?
Click to expand...

Make a blanket statement, get a blanket statement.

Tom Penny said:
It sucks that the Broncos only led the league in Pro Bowlers this year. Imagine what they could do if they had talent on the roster.
Click to expand...

So we had DT, Emmanuel Sanders(alternate), JT(alternate) CJ Anderson (alternate), Clady(on reputation), Peyton(deserved, but on reputation as well). On the offense.

On defense Talib, Harris, Ware, Von, Ward. All deserved.

Plus all-pro is the real selection. Everyone knows that.
 
G

Greg

Member
I need to learn how to shoot better in FIFA

dominate possession, many more shots on goal, can't get anything to go

meanwhile people with 1 shot on goal converting and I'm losing games
 
M

MechDX

Member
I'm going to make an AFC South off season OT. Best upcoming division in the league with all the young stars: Watt , Luck, Bort and Mettenberger.

No AFCE people allowed.
 
M

Megalosaro

Banned
So... since the Patriots are the defending super bowl champs, they host the first home game.

I was planning in flying me and my dad out to catch the first home game, but seeing as how the the AFC east is playing the nfc east this season, and my dad is a huge redskins fan, that is the game I am going to take him to.

What are the chances the pats will host that game.
 
A

Alligatorjandro

Banned
Megalosaro said:
So... since the Patriots are the defending super bowl champs, they host the first home game.

I was planning in flying me and my dad out to catch the first home game, but seeing as how the the AFC east is playing the nfc east this season, and my dad is a huge redskins fan, that is the game I am going to take him to.

What are the chances the pats will host that game.
Click to expand...
They play in new england for that game
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

2024 NFL Draft Day Thread |OT|
31
2K
AJUMP23 replied
PlayStation Plus Monthly Games for December: It Takes Two, Aliens: Dark Descent, Temtem
News Platform
44
2K
Kvally replied
AI: THE SOMNIUM FILES – nirvanA Initiative |OT| Exploring Uchikoshi's Somnium
|OT| 2 3
123
13K
reksveks replied
Forza Horizon 5 |OT| Are you a Mexican, or a Mexican't?
|OT| 42 43 44 45 46
2K
211K
MagnetoWasRight replied
Official GTA Trilogy feature list details all the Definitive Edition enhancements
2
57
7K
ACESHIGH replied
Top Bottom