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NHL Off-Season 2013 |OT| Celebrate Good Times Come On
- Thread starter ZeroGravity
- Start date
Still way the fuck better than Luongo's?
SpectreFire
Member
Does that really matter all that much? At the time of that signing, Luongo was probably the best goaltender in the NHL, he was making 6.75 the year before and was likely due to make 7.5-8 on his next contract. Fitting him to a cap hit on 5.3 is a ridiculous bargain.
In 20/20 hindsight, that contract is a mistake, but at the time, no one complained because it made absolute sense.
:lol It's not like he took a discount. He made $10M the first year of his deal. The only reason his cap his was so low was the dummy years at the end.
I never criticized Gillis for giving Lu that contract, but he needed to swallow his ego and accept how garbage it is not, and quit trying to fleece other GMs because Lu is still a good goalie.
SpectreFire
Member
I'm surprised you of all people would be condemning the Luongo contract given what the Hawks gave Hossa (see: exact same contract).
That I don't have an issue with because I agree with you as well. He should've accepted that he was in a bad position and taken whatever he could've gotten for Luongo instead of trying to make a "hockey trade".
Crazymoogle
Member
D. Sedin: 6.1m/year: Lindsay Trophy (2011), Art Ross (2011)
H. Sedin: 6.1m/year: Hart (2010), Art Ross (2010)
Yeah, they're older now, but anything under 7m these days is pretty good for players capable of winning the Hart and Art Ross. It's a 12.2m cap hit vs, say, the Penguins who have 18+ down on Malkin and Crosby.
The only question is whether they can continue to do so; was their play this season the result of the change in team hockey style, age, or what? I'm willing to believe it's more the system but Gillis seems clear that speed and scoring have no place in today's NHL so who knows where the team goes from here.
SpectreFire
Member
I think they are definitely declining with age, but I believe they'll still be PPG players for at least the next two seasons.
Looking at it this way, they were almost PPG this year, and they had to play shutdown hockey on top of that, while running a terrible PP.
The only thing I was condemning was you calling it a "ridiculous bargain". It wasn't. It was cap circumvention. Same with Hossa.
You can't say something like this and not include pictures.
I can't wait to see what Luongo's twitter response will be to Torterella's hiring.
SpectreFire
Member
Fair enough.
Also, I should be pointing out as I was just reminded of us, the Luongo contract might not even have been Gillis's fault. Apparently owners were pushing hard for him to write a long term deal because they were getting tired of the Canuck's revolving door of mediocre goaltenders.
Also, as for the Sedins and Torts, apparently the core players were involved in the coaching selection, and the Sedins reportedly pushed for Torts.
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
How many scoring titles, harts, Stanley Cups, goals and tougher teams to deal with do Crosby and Malkin have?
They're also on different lines, and more complete than the Sedins. You see how the Canucks get taken for a ride when the Sedins take faceoffs in their own zone
Don't get me wrong, it was great value, but considering all teams would have HAD to take both skaters who are only effective in the offensive zone and need to play on the same line to be as effective (yes I know there were good stretches but they aren't the same without one another)?
Personally, I think Kesler is a much better player.
Edit: wat?! Players willingly chose him as coach?! He comes off as a cancer in the locker room and media just like Wilson.
Sedins were some of the strongest on both sides of the rink this year when they had to play shut down hockey. Instead of listening to your bullshit, how about reading some facts:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ne-and-both-ends-of-the-rink/article11515932/
Kesler better than them? COME ON. Kesler had one great season. Kesler may be a bust as far as I'm concerned with that contract and injury history. This is the year to prove himself again.
And the final point you have to consider is how the Sedins are never injured. Crosby has essentially been out for 2 years. Malkin for a year due to injuries.
EDIT - Here's a great item from the article:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ne-and-both-ends-of-the-rink/article11515932/
Kesler better than them? COME ON. Kesler had one great season. Kesler may be a bust as far as I'm concerned with that contract and injury history. This is the year to prove himself again.
And the final point you have to consider is how the Sedins are never injured. Crosby has essentially been out for 2 years. Malkin for a year due to injuries.
EDIT - Here's a great item from the article:
SpectreFire
Member
That's actually not true at all. The Sedins had to play a lot of shutdown hockey this season with the absence of Kesler and Malhotra, and they actually played the best defensive season of their career.
http://canucks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=667209
They not only managed to shut down the toughest opponents, but they also managed to drive play the other way.
Jesus Christ, get the fuck out of here Tabris.
:lol :lol :lol
SpectreFire
Member
How dare people bring up a statistic that more and more hockey clubs and analysts are beginning to use!
People who completely disregard Corsi are just as bad as the ones who think it's the only stat that matters.
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah that Northwest division is really competitive.
Edmonton Western POWERHOUSE
Calgary TOUGH VETERAN TEAM
Colorado #1 OVERALL
Vancouver Canucks last year were 9-2-4 vs CEN which has Detroit Red Wings, Chicago Blackhawks, and St.Louis Blues.
In this short season, people only played their division 3 more times than other divisions.
Please come back with facts when you want to debate me. NeoGAF is about civil evidence-based discussions, right?
No, the people who disregard corsi aren't wasting time on a garbage statistic.
If I wasn't so into FTL at the moment and had a connection faster than .5Mbps, I'd say something along the lines of "Tabris and facts go together like peanut butter and tuna."
SpectreFire
Member
What's garbage about it?
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
Nah. You win. Your stats and analysis are on Pachter-levels of accuracy.
I mean the Isle did beat the Pens this playoffs.
My evidence-based prediction on NYI was based on most people underestimating the team, Fleury being very shaky, and a poor defence. Before Vokoun, I would say I was right on the money. The Islanders also proved that they shouldn't be underestimated.
Same with the Detroit Red Wings. Who I still believe will destroy in the East.
Same with the Detroit Red Wings. Who I still believe will destroy in the East.
It's little more than a +/- for shot totals. If you put a bunch of worthless shots on net like Stalberg or shoot a ton of shots into the shin pads of a defender like Duncan Keith, your corsi goes up.
What's your evidence for this, oh enlightened one?
Umm yeah, it does. Having Luongo at a 5.3m cap hit is not that important when Vancouver wants to trade him but no one wants to give them anything of real value.
bonesmccoy
Banned
Can you judge a GM by one or two really bad decisions?
If you say yes, then you probably think Gillis is a dead man walking. If you say no, you probably think Gillis has done a perfectly acceptable job.
If you say yes, then you probably think Gillis is a dead man walking. If you say no, you probably think Gillis has done a perfectly acceptable job.
SpectreFire
Member
It's bad if you only follow it and nothing else, but I think it does a good job at painting how effective a player is at driving play and preventing it. A shot at net is a shot at net, it's a scoring chance. Even if it misses, it creates a rebound off the board, off a skater, etc etc. It's driving the play in the right direction, which is a good thing.
On the opposite side of the ice, preventing shots is important. It'll let you know which defenders are losing their battles against which forwards and letting shots through, as well as who's holding their own.
+/- is absolutely worthless, but I think taken alongside other stats, Corsi is a really useful stat.
http://67.227.255.239/forum/showpost.php?p=55326692&postcount=17602
You have to judge the entire body of work I think and unfortunately we won't know the body of work until he has left and we've seen how much we've lost without those prospects he's traded away.
Shots that miss wide aren't factored in.
The problem with corsi is that the quality of the scoring chance isn't factored in. I mentioned Duncan Keith because a lot of his shots go directly into the legs of the defender directly in front of him. If he does that a dozen times a game, his corsi goes up, but there's zero scoring chances.
Once again, it doesn't factor in the quality of the chances, just the number. If you're holding a soft team like Chicago to the outside and giving a team nothing but 30 garbage shots, your corsi looks like shit but you're still playing good defense. On the other hand, if you only give up 5 shots, but they score on all 5, your corsi is amazing but you're getting trounced on the scoreboard.
I can see why some people look at corsi, but it's a stat for bean counters.
You're right about +/- though. Absolutely worthless.
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
Dem truthfacts. You're a regular CBOAT. My head is exploding with these stats! D:
Not like Detroit had a hall of fame D man those seasons.
Not like teams can drastically change within five years or anything, yet Detroit is an aging core group that hasn't added a really big name in awhile (OK, sorry, they got Brunner).
Not like Detroit squeaked in 8th this season either. Nope. They're on the rise, these devilish Wings!
SpectreFire
Member
That's true about missed shots, but at the same time, I know a lot of people use Corsi as a measure of possession and I think it's a lot more effective in that sense.
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2...use-corsi-who-is-corsi-don-cherry-hates-corsi
Doesn't Lawrence Gilman literally handle all of the signings for the Canucks organization? I read it somewhere.
I'm only saying since the signings seem to be the biggest strengths. Trades are a hit/mix (in my opinion) and drafting hasn't panned out.. yet. Well.. there was a high pick in Hodgson but he's not with the Canucks anymore.
Unless you're Chicago on a power play.
Gilman has a big hand in things, sure. Whoever thinks GMs act alone on all things is seeing things far too simply. Imagine any board that makes decisions with influence and information-sharing from various people, but with select people who make the executive decisions.
The Sedin contracts were, without question, below market value. He did a very good job with the AAV and the term. If we can fault GMs for bad contracts, then we can credit them for good ones.
Re: Who drafted Kesler. Burke also passed on Mike Richards, Corey Perry, Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, etc. I also don't know how much credit GMs should ever generally get for drafting when they're mostly informed by their scouts. Full points goes to Burke for getting the pick to take both Sedins, though.
Higgins is a great role player. Everyone who watches him regularly know what he brings. I'm sure you've got a guy on the Leafs like this who doesn't get much glory because he's not putting the puck in the net every night, but is still valuable.
Malhotra was excellent for the Canucks before the injury and continued to be important in the dressing room during the Cup run. He was a great acquisition. It's too bad that he may have to retire now.
Barker doesn't matter. 2-way, 1-yr contract, would only get limited ice time if there were injuries. Those contracts don't matter.
Ballard I already mentioned. The Grabner/Ballard trade was awful, although Spectre just thinks Ballard was mishandled.
Hornet's nest? You said he did nothing for the team. Twice. So I, as someone that's actually familiar with Gillis, politely told you otherwise.
The Sedin contracts were, without question, below market value. He did a very good job with the AAV and the term. If we can fault GMs for bad contracts, then we can credit them for good ones.
Re: Who drafted Kesler. Burke also passed on Mike Richards, Corey Perry, Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, etc. I also don't know how much credit GMs should ever generally get for drafting when they're mostly informed by their scouts. Full points goes to Burke for getting the pick to take both Sedins, though.
Higgins is a great role player. Everyone who watches him regularly know what he brings. I'm sure you've got a guy on the Leafs like this who doesn't get much glory because he's not putting the puck in the net every night, but is still valuable.
Malhotra was excellent for the Canucks before the injury and continued to be important in the dressing room during the Cup run. He was a great acquisition. It's too bad that he may have to retire now.
Barker doesn't matter. 2-way, 1-yr contract, would only get limited ice time if there were injuries. Those contracts don't matter.
Ballard I already mentioned. The Grabner/Ballard trade was awful, although Spectre just thinks Ballard was mishandled.
KingHenrik30
Member
Advanced stats and hockey don't mesh well
I disagree, but I'd say that the nature of the game has made any sort of advanced stats much more difficult to develop and refine and has meant that hockey is a few decades behind the other NA pro sports.
Fenwick close IS pretty damn cool, it's just something that would have existed in baseball 20 years ago and been widespread the last 10. And I think NHL in general have been searching hard for better metrics for a while, it's just been harder to find even decent ones.
As a baseball and baseball stat fan, I totally agree if you mean that the very nature of the different sports means that hockey may never get the sheer variety of nuanced, finely honed sabermetrics that baseball enjoys, unless you're the Phillies of course in which case you may as well be an NHL squad based on your approach to advanced stats.
I'm guessing that I'm in the minority of Canuck fans happy with the Torts signing?
Honestly, I see him as the perfect guy for that last ditch attempt before the window of opportunity slams shut. He will definitely not last more than 3 or 4 years here (at most), but in that time, he may just be able to squeeze something else out of a team that has clearly become complacent since it went to the Cup final.
Under AV and Rick Bowness, the Canucks were extremely prone to fire drills in their own zone, and they didn't really block a lot of shots. Both of those things should change pretty quickly under Torts. This will only insulate Schneider even more. It may lead to some boring ass hockey, but the Canucks are going to be ridiculously difficult to score goals on, just like the Rangers were under Torts. I wouldn't be surprised if Schneider gets nominated for, or wins a Vezina while Torts is here.
The offense, on the other hand, should be more touch and go, but with an increased commitment to the defensive end (specifically shot blocking), it's a chance worth taking in my eyes. Not that the Canucks have been a bad defensive team under AV, but it has been inconsistent and at times entirely based on goaltending.
The culture change is another reason I like the hire. AV was a very "hands off" coach. He let the players, for the most part, police themselves and be accountable to each other. There were a nauseating amount of "players only" meetings by the end of his tenure here, and I'm glad we're bringing in someone who's going to steer the ship, for better or for worse.
The hiring overall is definitely no slam dunk, but on a team that's on the decline, I feel it's the kind of move that needed to be made. It'll either blow up catastrophically, or it'll work. I don't think the potential for immediate dividends was there with a guy like Stevens like it is with Torts, and although I wanted Eakins, that was more for the future than it was for the now. If the team wants 1-2 more kicks at the can, this was the right move.
Honestly, I see him as the perfect guy for that last ditch attempt before the window of opportunity slams shut. He will definitely not last more than 3 or 4 years here (at most), but in that time, he may just be able to squeeze something else out of a team that has clearly become complacent since it went to the Cup final.
Under AV and Rick Bowness, the Canucks were extremely prone to fire drills in their own zone, and they didn't really block a lot of shots. Both of those things should change pretty quickly under Torts. This will only insulate Schneider even more. It may lead to some boring ass hockey, but the Canucks are going to be ridiculously difficult to score goals on, just like the Rangers were under Torts. I wouldn't be surprised if Schneider gets nominated for, or wins a Vezina while Torts is here.
The offense, on the other hand, should be more touch and go, but with an increased commitment to the defensive end (specifically shot blocking), it's a chance worth taking in my eyes. Not that the Canucks have been a bad defensive team under AV, but it has been inconsistent and at times entirely based on goaltending.
The culture change is another reason I like the hire. AV was a very "hands off" coach. He let the players, for the most part, police themselves and be accountable to each other. There were a nauseating amount of "players only" meetings by the end of his tenure here, and I'm glad we're bringing in someone who's going to steer the ship, for better or for worse.
The hiring overall is definitely no slam dunk, but on a team that's on the decline, I feel it's the kind of move that needed to be made. It'll either blow up catastrophically, or it'll work. I don't think the potential for immediate dividends was there with a guy like Stevens like it is with Torts, and although I wanted Eakins, that was more for the future than it was for the now. If the team wants 1-2 more kicks at the can, this was the right move.
ZeroGravity
Member
Pretty good deal.
CrazedArabMan
Member
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Good for him that he can bolt after one season in QC.