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[bender]

The same measure people use to say they're innovative.

So baseless, got it.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Which GTAs specifically? I don't remember the ones I played having the environmental interaction that BOTW had.

Anything before 4. One famous example was a mission gta 3 that involved chasing down a car, where the player could instead set the car with a bomb before beginning the chase. Gta 2 even had faction/respect system that went as far as altering how the people in the city treated you depending on your actions.

I also much prefer the approach for the previous Zelda dungeons. But that doesn't negate the fact that what they did with the BOTW dungeons was more innovative than continuing with the previous dungeon approach.

I don't know if i'd call streamlining them "innovative".

So baseless, got it.

Well, we can argue semantics until we conclude the concept of innovation is a myth if you prefer.

 

[bender]

Well, we can argue semantics until we conclude the concept of innovation is a myth if you prefer.

I was just trying to figure out if the multiple declarative statements in this thread were anything more than inane.

Anything before 4. One famous example was a mission gta 3 that involved chasing down a car, where the player could instead set the car with a bomb before beginning the chase. Gta 2 even had faction/respect system that went as far as altering how the people in the city treated you depending on your actions.

The open ended nature of missions went away long before GTA4 which is why that missions in GTA3 is the popular one to cite (Hey Ash, Nakey Jakey, etc.) and why you don't hear examples in the other PS2-era GTAs. If I were to guess, that was more of a happy accident than an intentional design choice, but that's just a guess. Either way, it's a shame that mission structure went another direction in Rockstar's future titles

 

[Guilty_AI]

I was just trying to figure out if the multiple declarative statements in this thread were anything more than inane.

That was sort of my point though. Nintendo isn't reinventing the wheel or changing the way games are played, not even designing new mechanics to any higher degree than other companies. They essentially just test the shit out of their games to make sure they're fun, which is honestly what MS and Sony should be doing more.

 

[Guilty_AI]

The open ended nature of missions went away long before GTA4 which is why that missions in GTA3 is the popular one to cite (Hey Ash, Nakey Jakey, etc.) and why you don't hear examples in the other PS2-era GTAs. If I were to guess, that was more of a happy accident than an intentional design choice, but that's just a guess. Either way, it's a shame that mission structure went another direction in Rockstar's future titles

GTA2 is still best GTA

 

[64bitmodels]

But that doesn't negate the fact that what they did with the BOTW dungeons was more innovative than continuing with the previous dungeon approach.

If that's considered innovation then innovation isn't always a good thing.

 

[bender]

[

not even design new mechanics to any higher degree than other companies.

Again I'll ask rhetorically, "by what measure?".

 

[Guilty_AI]

Again I'll ask rhetorically, "by what measure?".

how about "stuff that didn't exist before then". At most they slightly move around some things or add some twist, but most games that aren't straight up copying another do this.

 

[bender]

how about "stuff that didn't exist before then". At most they slightly move around some things or add some twist, but most games that aren't straight up copying another do this.

Your whole issue is people carelessly crediting Nintendo for being innovative but your method of refuting them is to be equally careless and reductive in your dismissals. And speaking of reductive, that is what your purposed measurement would be. Innovation can be found in design, mechanics, implementation, etc. Some of which will be far more obvious than others. I can see where you are coming from with your initial sentiment, and mostly agree with it, but I don't think how you are countering the argument holds any water.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Your whole issue is people carelessly crediting Nintendo for being innovative but your method of refuting them is to be equally careless and reductive in your dismissals.

Where? You aren't really pointing out where i'm being careless or reductive.

And speaking of reductive, that is what your purposed measurement would be. Innovation can be found in design, mechanics, implementation, etc. Some of which will be far more obvious than others. I can see where you are coming from with your initial sentiment, and mostly agree with it, but I don't think how you are countering the argument holds any water.

Which is why i said "to any higher degree than other companies" rather than an "yes" or "no". A mechanic to climb everywhere is interesting and not something i remember seeing in the same way before BotW, but so was a mechanic to attach retractable grappling hooks everywhere, to possess random drivers, to call in air strikes at will, to throw and recall a magical axe, to recharge your ammo and health with close quarters execution in a FPS, etc.

 

[bender]

Where? You aren't really pointing out where i'm being careless or reductive.

Which is why i said "to any higher degree than other companies" rather than an "yes" or "no". A mechanic to climb everywhere is interesting and not something i remember seeing in the same way before BotW, but so was a mechanic to attach retractable grappling hooks everywhere, to possess random drivers, to call in air strikes at will, to throw and recall a magical axe, to recharge your ammo and health with close quarters execution in a FPS, etc.

Where? See my "to what measure" responses which would be applicable to an earlier post of yours talking about games with "more advanced" physics systems. How are you even qualifying that? Different physics systems are implemented differently to accomplish different design goals so trying to measure one against another seems a tad ridiculous when the start and end points of the race aren't the same.

Innovation aside, I think you and who you are arguing against are on a different page when it comes to environmental interactions as you are relating it open ended mission design in GTA3. I'm going to assume the other side of the argument is talking about layered systems in BOTW and how they play off one another: Rain ruining your ability to climb mountains, fire propagation that imbue your weapon with a fire but will also degrade them faster or fires creating hot air pockets that can serve as launch points, lightning strikes in open fields being attracted to Link if he's wearing metal armor or carrying metal weapons, etc.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Where? See my "to what measure" responses which would be applicable to an earlier post of yours talking about games with "more advanced" physics systems. How are you even qualifying that? Different physics systems are implemented differently to accomplish different design goals so trying to measure one against another seems a tad ridiculous when the start and end points of the race aren't the same.

There are very quantifiable ways to measure a game's physics system. How many forces it simulates, how many objects it can simulate at once, persistence, precision, object properties, how it simulates these forces to begin with (you can simulate some effects in a "real" manner or you can fake them). The games i've shown surpass TotK in most, if not all of these points.

Innovation aside, I think you and who you are arguing against are on a different page when it comes to environmental interactions as you are relating it open ended mission design in GTA3. I'm going to assume the other side of the argument is talking about layered systems in BOTW and how they play off one another: Rain ruining your ability to climb mountains, fire propagation that imbue your weapon with a fire but will also degrade them faster or fires creating hot air pockets that can serve as launch points, lightning strikes in open fields being attracted to Link if he's wearing metal armor or carrying metal weapons, etc.

If that's what they meant, the answer is even simpler. BotW did not invent layered nor systemic game design. In fact, it isn't even particularly good at it since many of these properties go unused 99% of the time or serve no purpose other than annoy the player. In fact, the few instances i remember them being useful were very obviously areas designed to take advantage of specific properties rather than a result of them naturally coming together.

 

[64bitmodels]

bicker bicker bicker bicker holy shit you 2 just have sex already

 

[deriks]

Translation: bitch, we know videogames before your father was even a sperm. Fuck off

 

[bender]

There are very quantifiable ways to measure a game's physics system. How many forces it simulates, how many objects it can simulate at once, persistence, precision, object properties, how it simulates these forces to begin with (you can simulate some effects in a "real" manner or you can fake them). The games i've shown surpass TotK in most, if not all of these points.


If that's what they meant, the answer is even simpler. BotW did not invent layered nor systemic game design. In fact, it isn't even particularly good at it since many of these properties go unused 99% of the time or serve no purpose other than annoy the player. In fact, the few instances i remember them being useful were very obviously areas designed to take advantage of specific properties rather than a result of them naturally coming together.

There are ways to quantify it but you are entirely incapable of the measurement.

And just because you lacked the creativity to engage with the sandbox doesn’t negate the usefulness of those systems.

 

[Guilty_AI]

There are ways to quantify it but you are entirely incapable of the measurement.

By what measure you define me as "entirely incapable"?

And just because you lacked the creativity to engage with the sandbox doesn’t negate the usefulness of those systems.

Trust me, i tried, i digged the idea. But the more i played, the more i ran into the same problems many physics-based games in the mid-2000s had, as in beating enemies with a sword was far quicker and more efficient than any other contrivances that could be derived at the moment.

I remember a very specific situation where the game specifically set up an enemy camp surrounded by a mountain, with lots of dried grass until the entrance and a strong wind conveniently blowing in the direction of their camp. I did exactly what the game was indirectly telling me to do and set the grass on fire and watched it slowly spread to the camp. Except this failed to kill a single enemy and i just ended up beating them all up the normal way in the end, took 20 seconds or so.

 

[bender]

By what measure you define me as "entirely incapable"?

By the prattle you've posted in this thread.

 

[Guilty_AI]

By the prattle you've posted in this thread.

So baseless, got it.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Joy-Con contains an accelerometer and gyroscope, which can be used for motion tracking, it also has haptic feedback engine known as "HD Rumble, also contains an infrared depth tracking sensor, which can read objects and motions held in front of it; as an example of its functionality, Nintendo stated that the sensor could distinguish between the hand shapes of rock–paper–scissors. Joy-Con R also contains a near-field communication reader for use with Amiibo.
Thats is just the features of the switch controller that the PS4 and Xbox one controllers didnt have.

Also Technology isnt JUST 'RAW BIG NUMBERS'. also the WIIU streaming tech that gamepad uses that came out in 2012 is way BETTER than the PS Portal that came out in 2024. how is that even possible.

 

[bender]

So baseless, got it.

You are really bad this. Can't say I'm surprised.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

when i mean technology i didn't mean raw specs numbers of CPU, GPU and RAM. i meant things inside the switch. the switch uses USB type C while the PS4 and Xbox 1 uses USB type A. The Nintendo switch used HD Rumble which was far advance than the rumble motors that was in the PS4 and Xbox one uses. that is some of the technological advance feature i talk about not just raw BIG NUMBERS for CPU,GPU and other. i think people on this don't really understand the difference between tech feature and Raw SPEC NUMBERS.

Oh ok, I didnt know using a USB C is some technological advancement people will be mentioning when comparing PS4 and the Switch. That must be the number one selling point /s. And the rumble...yeah, simply amazing technological feat that it can vibrate somewhat differently. Sorry man you are literally grasping for straws lol. Ofcourse its going to have USB C when it came out FOUR years later. How is the PS4 supposed to have USB C when it didnt even exist back then.

Also, joycons are one of the biggest plastic crap junk ever produced and sold as a premium. Stick drift like no other gamepad and I dont know if you ever opened one, theres like 3 pieces inside, thats how simple it is. The "HD" rumble is a gimmick because on the switch its so weak anyway its not like you can really tell the difference.

 

[IAmRei]

I hope ai will go down tho
Technology often made people to go lazy ...
And the next gen youth are victim of it

 

[Team Andromeda]

There are several changes/innovations within Pikmin 4 that you couldn't find in previous Pikmin games.

In the same way I would call God of War 2018 innovative, as it clearly did things differently to its predessors.



The art style for Wonder is certainly far more expressive than NSMB, and very notice different.

I guess I just disagree that a realistic art style is more innovative than a non-realistic one.

Between Twilight Princess and Wind Waker, I would say its Wind Waker that has the more innovative art style (even though I prefer Twilight Princess as a game).

But most sequels do that and will add something new and I don't see people say that's so innovative. Oh look I can do platforming in Doom Enteral that game was so innovative, oh look Halo Ininite is open world that game was so innovative, I guess Doom The Dark Ages will be super innovative because you can fly in it?

Wonder and NSMB share much the same look and is completely mum and dad friendly. Don't get me wrong, they're good games but NCL is anything but innovative

 

[Toons]

I csnt help but agree. I dont think this AI boom is gonna be great for games any time soon.

You have to get the fundamentals down first.

Im by no means one of those here who thinks "western bad" but Nintendo games generally meet a qualify level that is beyond questioning because their priorities are always on the things that make games last.

 

[bad guy]

N devs probably don't even have AI capable hardware, and be using Core2duo PCs to make their games. ;D

 

[daclynk]

The "HD" rumble is a gimmick because on the switch its so weak anyway its not like you can really tell the difference.

Kirby Star Allies
Ring Fit Adventure Heart Rate Monitor Accuracy
Nintendo Labo

 

[Woopah]

Anything before 4. One famous example was a mission gta 3 that involved chasing down a car, where the player could instead set the car with a bomb before beginning the chase. Gta 2 even had faction/respect system that went as far as altering how the people in the city treated you depending on your actions.

Those are good systems in GTA, but they are nothing like BOTW. BOTW doesn't have anything even remotely resembling a faction/respect system.

If you were going to solve that GTA mission with BOTW's mechanics, then what you'd be able to do is collect some bin lids, iron railings and scaffolding poles; then arrange these metal objects in a line so that they carry electrical current from a nearby to the car and disable it.

But you can't do that because the systems used in GTA and BOTW are not the same at all.

I don't know if i'd call streamlining them "innovative".

Neither would I. Previous Zeldas had a "lock and key" dungeon design, where it was all about reaching a certain enf room by unlocking each door in your path (sometimes it was a literal key, other times it was an item).

BOTW on the other hand does something completely different, and instead you need to reach 5 different point of the map in any order, actively manipulating the dungeon itself to reach those points.

If that's considered innovation then innovation isn't always a good thing.

Which is correct. To reference a different Zelda game, Phantom Hourglass introduced some innovations, but it didn't mean people liked all of them.

 

[Mephisto40]

I can 100% guarantee the next game Nintendo release would have used AI during some part of it's development

 

[StueyDuck]

This is one of those statements that won't age well.

Eventually incorporating AI into your workflow is only going to improve productivity.

 

[Rickyiez]

Well this game looks like it's made of AI

 

[IDKFA]

Well this game looks like it's made of AI

Greatest mainline Pokémon game, just behind X & Y.

Fact

 

[RoboFu]

bicker bicker bicker bicker holy shit you 2 just have sex already

I'd like to see the physics in that

 

[SaintALia]

Well this game looks like it's made of AI

AI can generate far better textures than this. People will take any chance at a potshot at GF even when the thread has nothing to do with them.

I wonder what they're gonna do with PS4 power though and HD assets already made, could make something cool, or just better versions of what's in this screenshot.

Well anyway, I'm sure Nintendo have at least experimented with 'AI'(LLMs I'm guessing), but I'm not sure how they could incorporate it into their workflow currently. They've already completely restructured to be more workflow efficient some years ago.