No Female Heroes At Activision? (Gamastura Article)
- Thread starter Jex
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Jex
Member
coopolon said:
Very few games journalists like Activision, or so it seems.
Many others seem to have fairly low credibility.
But people only seem to be going all "journalistic integrity/credibility" over this article because it's by her. I just haven't seen a similar level of scepticism applied to all of games journalism (not that such close attention would be a bad thing).
Jex
Member
george_us said:
Well certainly, but I wasn't originally referring to expanding the market, simply Activison's (supposed) claim that female protagonists would shrink their market (which may or may not be true).
But obviously, if they actually wanted to expand they should do as you suggest and carter to females in a serious way rather than throwing in a female lead.
Pimpbaa said:
Not necessarily. If large corporations see it as a potential market to target they will go after it, whether the games are designed by men or women will not be the concern of the publisher.
Jexhius said:
When I read news articles, before deciding whether or not I believe I am being told, I think about who wrote it, what information they had access too, etc. before accepting it as valid and allowing it color my opinions on things.
In this case, what I know about Leigh Alexander: she doesn't get her facts straight, she has a very pro-feminist agenda, and she hates Activision.
So when she writes an article citing anonymous sources (who, if they exist, appear to be developers who have had past conflicts with Activision and thus clearly have an axe to grind) to bash Activision (again, a company she has admitted to hating) on a topic she has strong personal feelings about, I'm going to be a little skeptical.
Is what she is saying true that Activision actively removes female leads from projects because they don't think they will sell? Maybe, maybe not. Unfortunately, I don't have any better of an idea on this topic after her reading her article as I did before, because I have no idea if she's telling the truth.
Well, to be fair, how often do true "journalist" pieces get written in this industry? Gamasutra is one of the only places where you find them. There's not much to get upset over when reading previews or press release paraphrasing. Which is why it's a crying shame she's made such a point of completely discrediting herself because she's one of the few people in this industry actually doing stuff.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
That's a separate issue for me, I think. I want more for female protagonists for my own personal tastes, not necessarily because I feel it'll recruit more female gamers into playing action-heavy genres.Zoe said:
Dude Abides
Banned
2San said:
Why not? Negative information from insiders is generally going to come from anonymous sources. Do you think her sources were lying?
2San said:
This issue in isolation isn't my favorite cause or anything, but I'm not sure how you can say, given the information in the article, that things are the way they are solely because developers aren't choosing to do anything about it. There are more complicated pressures out there that many teams can't overcome, as this article points out. When it comes to teams with creative freedom, some choose not to have major female characters, and some (such as Valve) do.
There was a study of MMO characters referenced by a poster earlier that indicated that many male characters are okay with playing as females, and many females don't want to play as males. MMO social dynamics affect those choices a lot, but I think that this, combined with the existence of multiple successful counterexamples of successful games with female protagonists, indicates that the market exists.
Activision may or may not come around, but until then, I'll buy games like Bayonetta, Mirror's Edge, and Left 4 Dead. I'm not sure what your evidence is that I, or others posting, don't actually care. As I said before, what are you expecting? Protests in the streets?
badcrumble
Member
smh at the people in this thread who think "feminist" is a negative quailty, by the way, as though the OP was some sort of Dworkinesque screed or the SCUM manifesto.
Jexhius said:
You're right, I don't actually think she's lying. I believe she has actual sources, and I believe she's not making up words for them. But the credibility of the sources is of paramount importance in accepting the point she's making here (that activision is actively against releasing games with female protagonists) is where I can't make the leap.
I don't think being a feminist is a bad thing. I don't think hating Activision is a bad thing. But those biases are going to color how willing I am to accept what you are telling me is the truth about issues of gender or activision, especially when your only evidence is anonymous sources.
Edit: I do think getting facts wrong and sticking to them in a public forum is a bad thing though.
I thought the point of the article was that Activision tends to dictate the development of their games based on focus testing and market analysis, to an extreme degree. This particular example is female characters. Currently they don't sell like they used to in the late 90's early 2000's, so Activision is hamfisting developers that want a female character, to change to a male lead. Knowing Activision, this is not surprising. I don't see it as some smear campaign or crazy pro-feminism agenda, but that is just me.
Prime crotch
Banned
There's nothing wrong with being pro-feminism.
Big-ass Ramp
hella bullets that's true
does it really matter that there aren't any female heroes in Acti games? It wouldn't bother me as a guy if there weren't any male heroes, and it wouldn't bother me as a white guy if they weren't white. I think the writer is a little over-sensitive.
This is kind of an odd argument.george_us said:
Back in the 1950's, no one thought that women would be interested in television shows with blood and violence. However, eventually we started seeing crime dramas popping up with lots of interesting characters, and suddenly we find that more women watch CSI than men.
Back in the 70's and 80's, RPGs were solely the domain of men who played on their PCs in their basements, but now it's a genre with one of the largest female audiences.
The issue we currently face is that there's very little outreach in genres like FPS games to females, so they're going to naturally assume they're not for them. If the industry actually starts to build that outreach, they will actually be able to gain an audience of women who plays these games.
The problem with the industry (and many others as well) is that they base their actions solely off what the current stereotypes of the market are instead of trying to actually expand.
If the industry treats women like actual human beings with a wide range of thoughts and perspectives, then they will actually recognize that there are women who would like these types of games if they actually made an outreach to them.
This same issue exists for men. Why is it assumed that because I'm a male gamer, all I like to do is kill people? I like a much wider variety of things than that, but there are very few games targeted at my other interests.
Are there some women who will never like first person shooters? Absolutely, but the exact same thing is true of men.
Oxymoron said:
Maybe most female leads, but even then I dont think all of them are. Characters like Jade or April and Zoe are definitely developed beyond that notion. And this definitely isnt the case with supporting characters or party members though.
So dont say no one.
Guy LeDouche
Banned
there's no such thing as a "games journalist"Jexhius said:
it's not a real thing.
DidntKnowJack
Member
Literally half my games have 'create a character' options, are jrpg's, have female leads, females in prominent roles, or swing completely the other way and are gritty war-based first person shooters, Superhero games, or racing games where they either have no character or an established license like Batman.
Only a handful of them could I see maybe changing the lead role to a female character, like Dead Space, GTA, or a myriad of third person shooters. (For some reason they like male leads in tps's.)
I'm not saying things are all rosy. Clearly game developers/publishers could do a better job featuring females in lead roles. I'm just saying it's not nearly as bad as people seem to be implying. Things are improving in that regard, imo.
Only a handful of them could I see maybe changing the lead role to a female character, like Dead Space, GTA, or a myriad of third person shooters. (For some reason they like male leads in tps's.)
I'm not saying things are all rosy. Clearly game developers/publishers could do a better job featuring females in lead roles. I'm just saying it's not nearly as bad as people seem to be implying. Things are improving in that regard, imo.
Oh give me a fucking break.Gravijah said:
I'd say it's because her public screw-up was particularly recent and particularly taints this article given the target. I know the unprofessional-ism finger has been pointed at others but I'd argue that she basically hit the Trent Lott Target, and that we expect low-brow idiocy out of 1UP but at least some restraint from Gamasutra writers.Jexhius said:
Dance In My Blood said:
The sad part about this is that her two incidents of drunken stupidity during the Giant Bombcast have damaged her credibility to the point where even when she makes a good point, the first thing people think of is the drunkenness. It taints her to the point where fewer people will listen to her opinions and take them seriously. This is why professionalism matters, even in video game journalism.
Dude Abides
Banned
Pimpbaa said:
Women snickering at your tiny package doesn't really count as feminism.
Guy LeDouche
Banned
some people may try to pretend, but those people are wrong, and if they self-identify as a "games journalist" they have inferiority complex issues stemming from the fact that "games journalist" is not a real thing.Jexhius said:
badcrumble
Member
oh godPimpbaa said:
you're one of those
Prime crotch
Banned
ahahaha what the hellPimpbaa said:
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Does anyone remember when GTA: San Andreas was announced and the collective reaction on GAF (as well as elsewhere on the internet) leant heavily towards "I don't like the main character. It's not racist, I just can't 'relate'. I can't 'see myself in his shoes'"?
*shakes head*
Every single million-seller in the NPD data era with a female lead
1. NDS - Cooking Mama - 2.0 million units, NPD, I think Pachter verified this LTD in 2009
2. PSX - Tomb Raider - 1.85 million units, NPD, Jan 2003, excel file available on the internet publicly
3. PSX - Tomb Raider 2 - 1.75 million units, "
4. PS2 - Final Fantasy X-2, 1.6 million units, NPD, 2007-ish, last available leak just after the GAF ban
5. 360 - Left 4 Dead - 1.5+ million units, NPD, mix of publicly charted numbers and extrapolation of post-sales dropoff sales. Is a million seller in public numbers
6. PSX - Resident Evil: Director's Cut - 1.4 million units, Jan 2003, excel file available on the internet publicly
7. PSX - Tomb Raider 3 - 1.3 million units, "
8. 360 - Left 4 Dead 2 - 1.25+ million units, NPD, mix of publicly charting numbers and extrapolation.
9. N64 - Perfect Dark - 1.25 million units, "
10. PSX - Resident Evil 2 - 1.25 million units, "
11. Gamecube - Metroid Prime - 1.25 million units, NPD, last available leak
12. PSX - Resident Evil 3 - 1.05 million units, "
13. NDS - Cooking Mama 2 - 1.0+ million units, NPD, not sure what the date is on this one, I think the million mark was reported by IGN
Rules:
- No licensed titles (Barbie, Hannah Montana, Dora)
- No gigantic 10+ cast RPGs that have a few female leads; although I did include games with very female dominated ensembles.
- No create-a-character games (Mass Effect, Saints Row 2)
- I included RE1, 2, 3, and CV but not 4 or 5 because 3 and CV are both primarily female leads and 1/2 had female campaigns. 4/5 have female characters, of course, so if you want to split hairs, include them.
- I did include L4D/L4D2 because I think it's fair to say that Valve made a conscious decision to include males and females of various ethnicities and then went ahead and made it so that gameplay was the same regardless, so I think they'd qualify as progressive for the point of this discussion
13 million sellers in the last 15 years. The earliest NPD numbers we have are from about 1997, give or take. Pretty shitty. Of course I don't have full PS360 numbers or even full PS2 numbers, but I don't think anything else is close. I know Cooking Mama Wii is past 800k.
*shakes head*
Every single million-seller in the NPD data era with a female lead
1. NDS - Cooking Mama - 2.0 million units, NPD, I think Pachter verified this LTD in 2009
2. PSX - Tomb Raider - 1.85 million units, NPD, Jan 2003, excel file available on the internet publicly
3. PSX - Tomb Raider 2 - 1.75 million units, "
4. PS2 - Final Fantasy X-2, 1.6 million units, NPD, 2007-ish, last available leak just after the GAF ban
5. 360 - Left 4 Dead - 1.5+ million units, NPD, mix of publicly charted numbers and extrapolation of post-sales dropoff sales. Is a million seller in public numbers
6. PSX - Resident Evil: Director's Cut - 1.4 million units, Jan 2003, excel file available on the internet publicly
7. PSX - Tomb Raider 3 - 1.3 million units, "
8. 360 - Left 4 Dead 2 - 1.25+ million units, NPD, mix of publicly charting numbers and extrapolation.
9. N64 - Perfect Dark - 1.25 million units, "
10. PSX - Resident Evil 2 - 1.25 million units, "
11. Gamecube - Metroid Prime - 1.25 million units, NPD, last available leak
12. PSX - Resident Evil 3 - 1.05 million units, "
13. NDS - Cooking Mama 2 - 1.0+ million units, NPD, not sure what the date is on this one, I think the million mark was reported by IGN
Rules:
- No licensed titles (Barbie, Hannah Montana, Dora)
- No gigantic 10+ cast RPGs that have a few female leads; although I did include games with very female dominated ensembles.
- No create-a-character games (Mass Effect, Saints Row 2)
- I included RE1, 2, 3, and CV but not 4 or 5 because 3 and CV are both primarily female leads and 1/2 had female campaigns. 4/5 have female characters, of course, so if you want to split hairs, include them.
- I did include L4D/L4D2 because I think it's fair to say that Valve made a conscious decision to include males and females of various ethnicities and then went ahead and made it so that gameplay was the same regardless, so I think they'd qualify as progressive for the point of this discussion
13 million sellers in the last 15 years. The earliest NPD numbers we have are from about 1997, give or take. Pretty shitty. Of course I don't have full PS360 numbers or even full PS2 numbers, but I don't think anything else is close. I know Cooking Mama Wii is past 800k.
EmCeeGramr
Member
all of these women are castrating mebadcrumble said:
John Rabbit
Banned
GRRLS CAN DO WHATEVER GUYS CAN DO. NYAH.
not even going to bother with the article for the same reason i don't read tabloids or cat fancy.
not even going to bother with the article for the same reason i don't read tabloids or cat fancy.
EmCeeGramr
Member
*GTA4 is announced starring a Slavic immigrant who is a former soldier of brutal Eastern European conflicts*Stumpokapow said:
OH MAN AWESOME I LOVE THIS DUDE