Support NeoGAF

[Gravijah]

GRRLS CAN DO WHATEVER GUYS CAN DO. NYAH.

not even going to bother with the article for the same reason i don't read tabloids or cat fancy.

Which is...?

 

[XiaNaphryz]

For those who've forgotten, here's Leigh's article on Bayonetta:

For years, video games have struggled to define what constitutes a positive portrayal of women. We've learned what isn't, over our checkered history of anime panty shots, gratuitous cleavage and breast physics. And thanks to the likes of Half-Life 2's Alyx Vance, Beyond Good & Evil's Jade, Silent Hill 3's Heather Morris, and Portal's Chell, we've got some idea of what is.

But eager as we are to make progress beyond the industry's bad habit of reducing female characters to either sidekicks or sex objects, it's unfair to strip video game women of their sexuality completely, or to assert that if a character is sexual that she must be getting exploited. It's wonderful that our entertainment medium is developing more characters that bring more to the table than their looks -- but at the same time, we can accept that being mousy, tomboyish or turtle-necked is not the only way a woman can be considered admirable. Bayonetta's elegant nakedness in the fervor of battle is not in and of itself a bad thing.

But what about her unrealistic body, her gratuitous sashaying, the lollipop-licking? The hypersexualization of Bayonetta is intentionally unrealistic -- just as unrealistic as the superhuman aplomb of the Devil May Cry boys. Dante, for example, is a pleasure to play because of his unrealism, and Bayonetta is too. Both reject subtlety in favor of unrestrained, sometimes theatrically-excessive style in their own ways.

That emphasis on style over character substance isn't every player's taste, but it's not inherently unfair to women in this case. Kamiya's thematic choice for Bayonetta is an undercurrent that unifies the entire game, thus giving her sexuality context -- and context is the most important consideration in judging whether an element is appropriate or not.

As gamers, we don't always pick up a controller and immediately expect that the character on screen will be a representation of ourselves -- if we did, then it's possible that the overblown macho male characters we see in games with impossible strength and unbelievable musculature would offend male gamers. We must not assume that female players are so fragile that they view a stylized female body as a personal affront.

To prohibit a character like Bayonetta, and rush to cover her up in disapproval, is a rejection of her particular brand of femininity. Why do that? Because she makes men uncomfortable? If men feel uncomfortable with Bayonetta, maybe that means she succeeds.

As a woman, I haven't often been satisfied by female character options that effectively boil down to "the same thing as a man, just with breasts and a ponytail." Thanks to its innovative approach to the idea of female power, Bayonetta is the first action game heroine that's made me directly conscious of how cool it is to be a girl.

I already know that women can do all the same things men can. This time, I get to see a woman do plenty of things men can't. And I love it.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Not that it really effects your point, but did Portal really not sell a million between XBL, Orange Box on 360 and PS3, and Steam?

NPD tracks PC games separately and literally the extent of the data leaks I've seen in the last decade was VE3D posting the top ten titles with numbers twice, so PC is not included. It didn't break a million on either the 360 or the PS3 (PS3 only has a dozen titles that have broken a million). It may have broken a million combined, but I was doing single-SKU.

But I also wouldn't have counted OB anyway; it was five games, no one bought Portal knowing the protagonist was female, on the box art Portal was represented without Chell, etc.

 

[sonicmj1]

Does anyone remember when GTA: San Andreas was announced and the collective reaction on GAF (as well as elsewhere on the internet) leant heavily towards "I don't like the main character. It's not racist, I just can't 'relate'. I can't 'see myself in his shoes'"?

Isn't San Andreas both the best-selling GTA game of all time and the best-selling PS2 game?

I know people had that reaction, but it didn't stop the game from being successful.

 

[badcrumble]

For those who've forgotten, here's Leigh's article on Bayonetta:

I think that's something of a valid reading, tbh; Bayonetta is precisely about a threatening, dangerous female sexuality rather than a submissive one, being viewed positively. It's also wrapped in about ten layers of satire, of course, and could just as easily be read as phenomenally sexist and exploitative. But I think it's a valid opinion to say that Bayonetta exhibits a type of feminism.

 

[Pimpbaa]

For those who've forgotten, here's Leigh's article on Bayonetta:

I like this woman.

 

[Nirolak]

Isn't San Andreas both the best-selling GTA game of all time and the best-selling PS2 game?

I know people had that reaction, but it didn't stop the game from being successful.

Which is why this "we can't have female protagonists" mindset is quite ridiculous.

Does anyone expect Portal 2 to bomb because it stars a woman?

How about StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm?

FFXIII also did great despite having Lightning as the only thing on the box.

 

[Stumpokapow]

*GTA4 is announced starring a Slavic immigrant who is a former soldier of brutal Eastern European conflicts*

OH MAN AWESOME I LOVE THIS DUDE

Hah, you wouldn't even need to go that far, as if the 13 year olds playing GTA VC really related closely to being an italian-American driving down a Miami boulevard high on coke and listening to Toto, but I guess a war criminal is even less relatable

Isn't San Andreas both the best-selling GTA game of all time and the best-selling PS2 game?

Yes, and yes. Wii Play and Mario Kart Wii are the only two single-SKUs that have ever outsold San Andreas. So, yes, you're right--despite what I remember as being pretty overt racism, there was no one out there refusing to buy it.

 

[Dude Abides]

Yeah, I did. I was jabbing at the idea that she believed 775 million would be spent on a single media event ---- not related to the article.

I see.

This article could have used another round or two of editing:

As the game industry goes mainstream and AAA console headlines gain more mass-media mindshare thanks to the big dollars it's able to pull down around launches like Modern Warfare 2, consumers and developers alike frequently question the dominance of masculine heroes and discuss the difficulty of attracting women to the medium both as players and designers.

Ugh.

 

[2San]

Why not? Negative information from insiders is generally going to come from anonymous sources. Do you think her sources were lying?

She doesn't have much credibility going from the drinking debacles. She has proven herself to be unprofessional not mention the other article I read from her was about Bayonetta contained mistakes the average gamer would spot. Anonymous sources tend to be wrong especially in the gaming industry. She has also shown that she's anti-activision so she's hardly neutral. If you want to believe her go ahead, but I won't.

This issue in isolation isn't my favorite cause or anything, but I'm not sure how you can say, given the information in the article, that things are the way they are solely because developers aren't choosing to do anything about it. There are more complicated pressures out there that many teams can't overcome, as this article points out. When it comes to teams with creative freedom, some choose not to have major female characters, and some (such as Valve) do.

Activision may or may not come around, but until then, I'll buy games like Bayonetta, Mirror's Edge, and Left 4 Dead. I'm not sure what your evidence is that I, or others posting, don't actually care. As I said before, what are you expecting? Protests in the streets?

Assuming the information in the article is true, even then isn't it the publishers right to market their product the best way they see fit? If they are marketing the wrong way you might make point, but there is no indication that's true(next to personal feelings).

I'm saying the amount of people that actually care about this small and that the people that really want male main character might be in the majority. We have no way of knowing so I think Activision can do whatever they want and it isn't wrong imo.

 

[John Rabbit]

Which is...?

irrelevance? is there any shadow of a doubt when the words "gamasutra" and "women" or "females" or "girls" are thrown together that its another directionless brain fart that leigh alexander felt she should infect the world with?

 

[FStop7]

Out of my ass, and it's still probably pretty accurate. I work in a game store, and with titles like Modern Warfare it's closer to 99%.

Holy shit, you work in a game store? Objection withdrawn, your honor!

 

[shintoki]

I think Hollywood figured this out. While movies like Predator or Commando are easy money. Ones like Die Hard ended up doing much better. Even though it is an action movie, for some "unknown" reason a lot of women seem to enjoy it. Now a lot of our blockbusters always seem to be Action/adventure movies. Could it possibly be girls actually do like the majority of the same stuff as guys. Maybe they just dislike the the mindless, creatively bankrupt industry the HD Twins appeal too? While a lot of guys can sit there and play random shooter for 10 hours and jerk off to their K/D ratio. It seems to just appeal to a selective audience with a lot of disposable cash.

It seems the idea of creating a separate market for games aimed at females doesn't solve the problem, nor just putting in a token female lead. Learning not to aim your appeal to 12 year old boys would probably be the best start. :lol

 

[Pimpbaa]

Which is why this "we can't have female protagonists" mindset is quite ridiculous.

Of course it is. But activision doing stupid things is nothing new. Why people are suddenly defending them has me confused.

 

[charsace]

I don't understand how people can say women aren't interested in FPS. The female audience for Valve shooters and Shadowrun are pretty sizeable in comparison to the male audience. In shadowrun and L4D I have been in matches where there are more women than men. There are hardcore FPS that do appeal to women.

 

[Masaki_]

The fact the game industry is oversaturated with male characters and degrading female stereotypes is a reflection of the state of our culture in general. Why would someone expect the game industry to change before that? Does she expect it to somehow trigger a cultural revolution?

Just look at the big picture and you'll see that it's such a small issue to begin with, there's not much point in tackling it, unless being a feminist games journalist happens to be your gimmick.

 

[TheFightingFish]

<sales numbers>

13 million sellers in the last 15 years. The earliest NPD numbers we have are from about 1997, give or take. Pretty shitty. Of course I don't have full PS360 numbers or even full PS2 numbers, but I don't think anything else is close. I know Cooking Mama Wii is past 800k.

Did Metroid Prime really not tick over a mil? Or Fusion? Not that it really changes the over all picture. Just trying to think of a few I didn't see on your list.

 

[Dude Abides]

She doesn't have much credibility going from the drinking debacles. She has proven herself to be unprofessional not mention the other article I read from her was about Bayonetta contained mistakes the average gamer would spot. Anonymous sources tend to be wrong especially in the gaming industry. If you want to believe her go ahead, but I won't.

I don't think making an ass out of yourself when you're drunk on a podcast means everything you write is tainted. Plus a lot of games writers have made asses on themselves on podcasts to some degree.

Believing her and believing her sources are not the same thing. Do you think she just invented them?

 

[Stumpokapow]

Did Metroid Prime really not tick over a mil? Or Fusion? Not that it really changes the over all picture. Just trying to think of a few I didn't see on your list.

Metroid Prime is on the list. Prime 2 didn't break a million. Prime 3 didn't break a million. Fusion came close but not quite, although it may have broken a million past the year 2007.

 

[Nirolak]

Did Metroid Prime really not tick over a mil? Or Fusion? Not that it really changes the over all picture. Just trying to think of a few I didn't see on your list.

This is the U.S. alone, so it wouldn't be too surprising if they didn't, especially in Fusion's case.

 

[Pimpbaa]

I don't understand how people can say women aren't interested in FPS. The female audience for Valve shooters and Shadowrun are pretty sizeable in comparison to the male audience. In shadowrun and L4D I have been in matches where there are more women than men. There are hardcore FPS that do appeal to women.

Maybe because valve makes more likeable characters? Especially the Left for Dead series. Both games have a delightful mismatch of characters with humors banter between them. It's hard not to like.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

It's hard not to when so many of them have an agenda to make men feel bad about their sexuality.

There are many kinds of feminism and no one needs to take your opinion (of feminism) seriously if you can't be bothered to distinguish between them.

 

[FStop7]

People did it on 1up Yours all the time and pretty much everyone just laughed about it.

The TGS episode of 1UY with drunk Garnett was terrible, I turned it off pretty early. Drunk, obnoxious ranting sucks to listen to regardless of gender.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

She played Persona 3 Portable as a girl and now is on a rampage about female leads. :/

Not joking, I watch her twitter.

You know, I was going to say she has a valid point.

.....then I read her article on playing as a female lead in Persona 3 :/

 

[shintoki]

I don't understand how people can say women aren't interested in FPS. The female audience for Valve shooters and Shadowrun are pretty sizeable in comparison to the male audience. In shadowrun and L4D I have been in matches where there are more women than men. There are hardcore FPS that do appeal to women.

You mean titles that don't go the COD route. Actually embrace a different art style(Or have a style in general), emphasize teamwork(And coop), and are more than a shitty frag fest?

 

[2San]

I don't think making an ass out of yourself when you're drunk on a podcast means everything you write is tainted. Plus a lot of games writers have made asses on themselves on podcasts to some degree.

Believing her and believing her sources are not the same thing. Do you think she just invented them?

She is proven to be unreliable. Has an anti-Activision agenda. Rumors in the gaming industry tend to be false most of the time(in my experience). She come with sources that are anonymous.

Maybe she did, maybe she misquoted, maybe she's right. Wouldn't be the first time she got the wrong end of the stick. Interesting how no other gaming news outlet mentioned this. I think I have enough grounds to not trust her.

 

[coopolon]

I don't think making an ass out of yourself when you're drunk on a podcast means everything you write is tainted. Plus a lot of games writers have made asses on themselves on podcasts to some degree.

Believing her and believing her sources are not the same thing. Do you think she just invented them?

Maybe maybe not. But when you make an ass of yourself specifically in regards to Activision, it is certainly going to taint everything you write about that company in particular.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I think Hollywood figured this out. While movies like Predator or Commando are easy money. Ones like Die Hard ended up doing much better.

Is this fair though? Die Hard had a 50% higher worldwide gross than Predator, but had twice the budget Predator had. Both were wildly popular. Commando is less popular than either, but there's no budget information available, which suggests the budget was also lower than both.

Not to say that Hollywood isn't better at this than the gaming industry, but I'm not sure those three movies are a great point-maker.

 

[gondwana]

I think Hollywood figured this out. While movies like Predator or Commando are easy money. Ones like Die Hard ended up doing much better. Even though it is an action movie, for some "unknown" reason a lot of women seem to enjoy it. Now a lot of our blockbusters always seem to be Action/adventure movies. Could it possibly be girls actually do like the majority of the same stuff as guys. Maybe they just dislike the the mindless, creatively bankrupt industry the HD Twins appeal too? While a lot of guys can sit there and play random shooter for 10 hours and jerk off to their K/D ratio. It seems to just appeal to a selective audience with a lot of disposable cash.

Hollywood has not figured out shit, WRT sex or ethnic diversity. Not a bit. I'd actually wager the game industry is in much the same place Hollywood has been and will continue to be -- white male dominated protagonists with token and stereotype roles for women / minorities sprinkled in between.

 

[Zachack]

Hah, you wouldn't even need to go that far, as if the 13 year olds playing GTA VC really related closely to being an italian-American driving down a Miami boulevard high on coke and listening to Toto, but I guess a war criminal is even less relatable

I can't speak for GTA4 but VC was relatable in the US via Gen-X nostalgia. GTA3 and 4 were probably the least relatable for me, and SA was pretty relatable since I grew up in LA and also watched the movies it directly pulls from.

I'd argue that Portal would count since the main character is GLADOS. But what I'd really argue (and this is really more gut feeling more than anything) is that by your criteria there wouldn't be an overwhelming amount of male-lead games above 1M since 1995, either. You've basically cut out all western RPGs and many eastern RPGs.

I'm also going to point to Diner Dash and say that NPD is only useful in making a somewhat narrow point.

 

[faceless007]

The fact the game industry is oversaturated with male characters and degrading female stereotypes is a reflection of the state of our culture in general. Why would someone expect the game industry to change before that? Does she expect it to somehow trigger a cultural revolution?

Just look at the big picture and you'll see that it's such a small issue to begin with, there's not much point in tackling it, unless being a feminist games journalist happens to be your gimmick.

So much wrong.

If you agree there's a problem of culture being hypersexualized and degrading to women, how do you suggest people solve it if focusing on the small issues first is pointless? What's your solution to fix the whole media landscape in one fell swoop?

 

[Pimpbaa]

There are many kinds of feminism and no one needs to take your opinion (of feminism) seriously if you can't be bothered to distinguish between them.

I'm all for feminist who's goal is to strive for equity or embrace female sexuality. It's just the ones that want to destroy male sexuality that you hear about most. The ones that throw around words like "degrading" or "womanizer" like there is no tomorrow. And in the game industry, the ones who get their panties in a twist just because there are some jiggling polygonal tits in a game and how it's a great injustice somehow to women.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

edit: what are you people talking about, good things generally DO require a call to arms in order to happen unless you think that things like the civil rights movement happened 'organically' and on their own

Well now we've officially gone 'round the bend.

 

[badcrumble]

Well now we've officially gone 'round the bend.

Do you disagree with my claim that improvements in condition generally require advocacy before they happen, or are you assuming that my use of the civil rights struggle as an analogy somehow means that I'm saying that this issue is equally severe?

 

[Prime crotch]

I'm all for feminist who's goal is to strive for equity or embrace female sexuality. It's just the ones that want to destroy male sexuality that you hear about most.

that's just your paranoia kicking in

 

[charsace]

You mean titles that don't go the COD route. Actually embrace a different art style(Or have a style in general), emphasize teamwork(And coop), and are more than a shitty frag fest?

Could be that too. The creeper types don't seem to be attracted to the types of games I listed. Maybe the team focus turns them off because they can't live out their rambo fantasies? I also notice that there aren't many guys that say or ask women creepy shit in these games.

I've been in a fair amount of MW1 and 2 matches where dudes just start insulting women as soon as they figure out they are female. These type of dudes scare women away from COD. No one wants to go fire up a game to get harassed while playing.

 

[Nirolak]

Do you disagree with my claim that improvements in condition generally require advocacy before they happen, or are you assuming that my use of the civil rights struggle as an analogy somehow means that I'm saying that this issue is equally severe?

I think he expects us to get derailed regardless of the validity of your comparison.

 

[badcrumble]

I think he expects us to get derailed regardless of the validity of your comparison.

This thread got derailed starting with the first reply.

 

[Nirolak]

This thread got derailed starting with the first reply.

Yes, I don't personally take objection to your statement. I was just speculating.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

The sad part about this is that her two incidents of drunken stupidity during the Giant Bombcast have damaged her credibility to the point where even when she makes a good point, the first thing people think of is the drunkenness. It taints her to the point where fewer people will listen to her opinions and take them seriously. This is why professionalism matters, even in video game journalism.

Precisely

Too many white knight types coming in to decry the evils of GAF's male chauvinism when the lady in question has done nothing to earn our respect in the first place

 

[Pimpbaa]

that's just your paranoia kicking in

A possibility.

 

[mclaren777]

Worse than that: she's a feminist, and would like to see games have a lot less testerony "hells ya, brah" bullshit, and explore more different themes and characterisation.

Sign me up!

 

[FStop7]

Precisely

Too many white knight types coming in to decry the evils of GAF's male chauvinism when the lady in question has done nothing to earn our respect in the first place

Like I did mention, she makes a good point. But it's easy for people to be dismissive when all they have to do is invoke the memories of drunken Leigh acting like a complete jerk on the Giant Bombcast... twice.

 

[DiscoJer]

The thing is, people have blindspots when it comes to gaming. This place and most journalistic sites completely ignore things like Big Fish Games (which just made a big deal of a billion game downloads. But hey, a billion isn't worth paying attention to or anything).

Look at their games. Most of the protagonists are female. Why? Because much of their customer base is female.

(Then again, much of their audience is middle aged and older, yet the basic plot lines of these games is a 20-30-ish woman helping their elderly father or grandfather who has gotten into some sort of mishap)

And somewhere in the same vein, not quite casual but not console either, adventure games. Women play them a lot, so they get games aimed at them. Something like 30 Nancy Drew games in the last 10 years.

 

[gondwana]

Precisely

Too many white knight types coming in to decry the evils of GAF's male chauvinism when the lady in question has done nothing to earn our respect in the first place

Address the content in the writer's article, not the writer herself. Unless her past conflicts with what she writes in the present, I don't personally give a shit who she is or what she did on podcast #366 of gaming website X. Her article is on point.

 

[coopolon]

Address the content in the writer's article, not the writer herself. Unless her past conflicts with what she writes in the present, I don't personally give a shit who she is or what she did on podcast #366 of gaming website X. Her article is on point.

But her past does conflict with what she is writing in present. On a podcast recently, she made a point to let everyone know how much she hates Activision. Then, she writes an article bashing Activision citing anonymous sources.

I'm not really sure what new points people are gleaming from this article that I am missing. That females are under-represented as video game protagonists? Of course, but how is that new information?

This article, at least before she gets into background, is specifically about Activision proactively removing female protagonists by either cancelling projects or replacing them with males because they (think they) don't sell. But given her clearly stated opinion, it's impossible to decide whether this is true or if she or her sources (who are ex-employees) are just trying to grind an axe with Activision.

 

[shaowebb]

Wow...Leigh Alexander. Dumbshit at the wheel of a keyboard. She quoted a staples center costing 775 million to rent FOR A DAY. This lady cannot be trusted on fact finding, or opinions.

 

[2San]

The thing is, people have blindspots when it comes to gaming.

I don't think you noticed, but shooters are the only games that matter. :lol

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Address the content in the writer's article, not the writer herself. Unless her past conflicts with what she writes in the present, I don't personally give a shit who she is or what she did on podcast #366 of gaming website X. Her article is on point.

Good for you. I'll continue to consider the source if that's okay with you

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

The biggest issue raised here isn't even a matter of gender, it's the issue of Activision's internal "creative" process.

This is the same backwards P&G Soap style of management that nearly stopped Modern Warfare from getting made. Activision will eventually fall behind once their cash cows dry up if they continue as they are (though they still have Blizzard to keep them afloat I guess)