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[Masaki_]

So much wrong.

If you agree there's a problem of culture being hypersexualized and degrading to women, how do you suggest people solve it if focusing on the small issues first is pointless? What's your solution to fix the whole media landscape in one fell swoop?

I think people are already doing something about it. Our attitude towards women is changing very slowly and, with that, the depiction of women in media.

Feminism in general? Sure, that's a fight worth fighting. Feminism in the game industry? Maybe you should be focusing your efforts on the root of the problem.

 

[shaowebb]

Good for you. I'll continue to consider the source if that's okay with you

Agreed. One of the FIRST rules to critical thinking is to consider the credibility of your sources. This woman goes off on rampages, is a feminist, and she misquotes figures by over 100x there amount live in interviews, and argues that she is correct no matter what viable arguments are presented to her.

It stands to reason someone like this would ignore any facts, or figures that disagree with her own bias, and that she would likely quote things out of context in order to justify her own opinion.

Seriously...how the fuck do you quote a cost as $775 million when its $7.75 million, and never once think that its a little steep for renting anything for a day? That's more than it cost to make Avatar, and she argued to the death that she was right because she never believes she is wrong no matter what facts are presented.

 

[RedSwirl]

I think what's weird in the movie industry is that there's an almost entirely separate ecosystem for black-targeted movies (Tyler Perry stuff, etc.) from the whiter Hollywood ecosystem, with different writers/directors/casts et cetera, and the fact that this exists says that mainstream Hollywood isn't doing a very good job of catering to anything but white people.

The movie industry is much, much better about its treatment of female characters and protagonists, though, for the most part, even if it's not perfect.

This is one thing that has bugged me for a long-ass time.

There actually is a bit of a gender problem in Hollywood though. Female leads are a hard sell there too. Many producers have actually been throwing out screenplay pitches because of female leads.

Wonder why Sean Bean was thrown into the Silent Hill movie?

 

[faceless007]

white knight

Ah, was wondering when that would show up. Surprised it took so long, honestly.

 

[gondwana]

But her past does conflict with what she is writing in present. On a podcast recently, she made a point to let everyone know how much she hates Activision. Then, she writes an article bashing Activision citing anonymous sources.

I'm not really sure what new points people are gleaming from this article that I am missing. That females are under-represented as video game protagonists? Of course, but how is that new information?

This article, at least before she gets into background, is specifically about Activision proactively removing female protagonists by either cancelling projects or replacing them with males because they (think they) don't sell. But given her clearly stated opinion, it's impossible to decide whether this is true or if she or her sources (who are ex-employees) are just trying to grind an axe with Activision.

Fair enough.

Can someone post a link to this podcast?

 

[panda21]

is Jexhius Leigh Axelander's publicist or something? someone (i think its Jexhius) posts a thread for pretty much every gamasutra article she writes recently...

 

[cuyahoga]

Was it mentioned yet that Black Lotus was cancelled because Activision wanted Treyarch to focus on World at War?

Also, Leigh is OTM here, though I do cringe at the thought of what the feminine perspective in a True Crime game would be after the Asian and black stereotyping of the first two games.

 

[dimb]

Was it mentioned yet that Black Lotus was cancelled because Activision wanted Treyarch to focus on World at War?

And does Activision have any excuses for why there weren't any women in World at War?

 

[Lime]

I think people are already doing something about it. Our attitude towards women is changing very slowlyand, with that, the depiction of women in media.

Feminism in general? Sure, that's a fight worth fighting. Feminism in the game industry? Maybe you should be focusing your efforts on the root of the problem.

Judging by this thread, seems more like the opposite.

 

[sonicmj1]

Was it mentioned yet that Black Lotus was cancelled because Activision wanted Treyarch to focus on World at War?

Also, Leigh is OTM here, though I do cringe at the thought of what the feminine perspective in a True Crime game would be after the Asian and black stereotyping of the first two games.

I don't think Treyarch made the True Crime games. Did they?

 

[Stumpokapow]

I'd argue that Portal would count since the main character is GLADOS. But what I'd really argue (and this is really more gut feeling more than anything) is that by your criteria there wouldn't be an overwhelming amount of male-lead games above 1M since 1995, either. You've basically cut out all western RPGs and many eastern RPGs.

Okay, well.

US Million sellers, by category (currently includes GCN, N64, XBX, GBA, DC, PS1, PS2, PS3, Wii, DS, X360);

Male lead, small ensemble with playable male, large ensemble significantly tilted male: Mario Sunshine, Zelda TWW, Luigi's Mansion, Sonic Adventure GCN, Paper Mario 2, Sonic Mega Collection, Halo, Halo 2, Fable, Splinter Cell, GTA SA, SW Battlefront, SW Battlefront 2, Ghost Recon, Sonic Adventure, Super Mario 64, Zelda OOT, Diddy Kong Racing, Donkey Kong 64, Star Fox 64, Star Wars SOTE, Majora's Mask, SW Rogue Squadron, Turok 2, Yoshi's Story, Crash Bandicoot 2, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, Driver, FF7, MGS, Driver 2, FF8, FF9, Syphon Filter, Spyro Year of the Dragon, Rayman, FF9, Spec Ops, Spyro: Season of Ice, Kingdom Hearts CoM, Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga, Sonic Advance, Yoshi's Island Advance, Zelda LTTP Advance, Mario Bros 3, Super Mario World Advance, Liberty City Stories, Vice City Stories, SW Battlefront II PSP, God of War Chains of Olympus, CoD MW2, CoD MW, GTA4, CoD WaW, MGS4, Assassin's Creed, AC2, Uncharted 2, Resistance, Halo 3, Gears, Gears 2, Halo 3 ODST, AC2, CoD2, RE5, R6: Vegas, GRAW, R6: Vegas 2, CoD3, Dead Rising, Saints Row, NSMB Wii, SMG, Link's Crossbow Training, Zelda: TP, BioShock, Croc, Syphon Filter 2, Pac-Man World, Super Paper Mario (feel free to recategorize this one), RE4, SW: TFU (might not have hit a million), NSMB, SM64DS, Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, Zelda: Spirit Tracks, Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story, Kirby Superstar Ultra, Scribblenauts, GTAVC, GTA3, Kingdom Hearts, KH2, God of War, God of War 2, FFX, FFXII, SOCOM II, Ratchet and Clank 1, Ratchet and Clank 2, Ratchet and Clank 3, Ratchet and Clank 4, Jak and Daxter 1, Jak and Daxter 2, Jak and Daxter 3, Crash Bandicoot: Wrath of Cortex, Max Payne, Max Payne 2, Medal of Honor: Rising Son, True Crime: Streets of LA, SOCOM, Call of Duty Finest Hour, MGS2, MGS3, SOCOM 3, Hitman 2, Devil May Cry, Pac-Man World 2, Black, The Getaway, Bully, Splinter Cell, Shadow of the Colossus (might not quite be there, was VERY close),

Female lead, small ensemble with playable female, large ensemble significantly tilted female: Metroid Prime, Perfect Dark, Tomb Raider, Tomb Raider 2, Resident Evil 2, Tomb Raider 3, Resident Evil 1, Resident Evil 3, Mario Bros 2, Left 4 Dead, Left 4 Dead 2, Cooking Mama, Yoshi's Island 2, Cooking Mama 2, FFX-2, RE Code Veronica X (might have broken a million, not sure), FF13

Create-a-character: Animal Crossing, SW KOTOR, LittleBigPlanet, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fable 2, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Saints Row 2, Deca Sports?, Animal Crossing City Folk, EA Sports Active, Animal Crossing Wild World, MySims (DS is past a million, Wii might be), The Sims PS2,

True ensemble (includes fighting games regardless of gender balance): Smash Bros, Mario Kart GCN, Mario Kart 64, Smash Bros Melee, Diddy Kong Racing, Mario Party 2, Mario Party, Tekken 3, Crash Team Racing, Tekken 2, Twisted Metal 2 (are there any female characters in this), Spyro 2, Mortal Kombat Trilogy, Crash Bash, Mario Kart GBA, Mario Kart Wii, Smash Bros Brawl, Mario Party 8, Mario Kart DS, Mario Party DS, Mortal Kombat Deadly Alliance, Tekken Tag Tournament, Tekken 4, Tekken 5, Twisted Metal Black

Games I can't categorize into the above (either because I know about the games and can't decide or don't know enough about the games): Banjo Kazooie, 1080 Snowboarding, Crash Bandicoot 3, Frogger, Cool Boarders 3, Cool Boarders 2, Jet Moto 2, Twisted Metal 2, Twisted Metal 3, Jet Moto, Twisted Metal, Frogger's Adventure GBA, Mario and Sonic at the Olympics, Rayman Raving Rabbids, Just Dance, Sonic Heroes,

Mii Games: Wii Play, Wii Fit, Wii Fit Plus, Wii Sports Resort, Wii Music,

Rules:
- Single SKU, we just simply don't have enough data to combine PS360 SKUs, sorry.
- Excluding racing games, puzzle games, games where the player character is a non-anthropormorphic robot
- Excluding minigame/party games with no player characters
- Excluding all sports and extreme sports games
- Excluding rhythm games
- Excluding licensed games where the license dictates the gender balance of the game (Hannah Montana, Harry Potter, Spider-Man, etc)
- Including licensed games where the license in question is broad enough to allow for flexibility (Star Wars other than games based on specific movies)
- I excluded the Imagine games; several of them have broken a million, although I don't know which ones. I have no idea if you play a female or can create a character or if something so ostentatiously female-targeted would count for this discussion anyway.

- I've made notes on games I am not sure if they've crossed a million or not. Sources: Public NPD numbers, NPD Complete 97-03 XLS file which was posted publicly years ago, pre-leak ban NPD leaks, IGN updates, Pachter updates, the two CAG leaks, several VE3D postings, extrapolation in cases where games were at 950k+ and still trickling when we last got data. This may not be complete for current gen platforms, but it's pretty close.

I hope those rules are more acceptable. I'm not going to count 'em all, but my guess is there's at least a 5:1 tilt towards male leads.

 

[2San]

Okay, well.

I think FF13 can fall under female.

 

[daycru]

Female lead, small ensemble with playable female, large ensemble significantly tilted female:Yoshi's Island 2

Yoshi is female?

Mind blown.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I think FF13 can fall under female.

Mis-copied that one.

Yoshi is female?

Mind blown.

Yoshi isn't, Peach is--feel free to put this one in the male category otherwise. I went back and forth on Super Paper Mario.

 

[george_us]

This is kind of an odd argument.

Back in the 1950's, no one thought that women would be interested in television shows with blood and violence. However, eventually we started seeing crime dramas popping up with lots of interesting characters, and suddenly we find that more women watch CSI than men.

Television shows/movies must adhere to a completely different set of criteria than video games to get people to watch them. In film, the creators use both visuals and narrative to appeal to a broad audience. A video game's biggest test is to get people involved interactively and I believe that in terms of interactivity, shooters in general do not appeal to the vast majority of females regardless of what package you wrap it in. The biggest example I can think of right now is Uncharted 2. I remember reading numerous comments from gamers about how their girlfriends loved watching them play Uncharted 2 since the characters were so appealing but I didn't read one comment regarding the girl actually playing the game. I remember both reading and hearing comments similar to something like Bayonetta, females really liked the character (much to the surprise of GAF males everywhere who, ironically, found the character overtly sexist) but didn't have any interest in playing the actual game. I guess what I'm trying to say is that fundamental game mechanics are to blame for why some genres are male dominated. You're not going to get females en masse to play shooters unless you drastically alter the mechanics, and at that point I'd wonder if you could call it a shooter any more.

Back in the 70's and 80's, RPGs were solely the domain of men who played on their PCs in their basements, but now it's a genre with one of the largest female audiences.

It's also a genre that has seen a fairly steady decline in sales over the years, as I assume you're talking about JRPGs since I'm pretty sure Western RPGs are still dominated my males save for something like World of Warcraft. I'd also argue that marketing has had as much to do with female gamers picking up JRPGs as much any attempts at reaching out to them. The subject matter in either genres haven't really changed all that much over the years.

The issue we currently face is that there's very little outreach in genres like FPS games to females, so they're going to naturally assume they're not for them. If the industry actually starts to build that outreach, they will actually be able to gain an audience of women who plays these games.

And I personally don't think there's anything developers CAN do to these genres short of fundamentally reworking them and by then I'd wager it'd cease to become the previous genre.

The problem with the industry (and many others as well) is that they base their actions solely off what the current stereotypes of the market are instead of trying to actually expand.

When you just published a game that sold over 15 million copies, it's hard not to want to keep riding that gravy train until something else comes along. I'd love to have more unique protagonists in typically male dominated genres but I also don't have a table of shareholders I need to report to.

If the industry treats women like actual human beings with a wide range of thoughts and perspectives, then they will actually recognize that there are women who would like these types of games if they actually made an outreach to them.

This same issue exists for men. Why is it assumed that because I'm a male gamer, all I like to do is kill people? I like a much wider variety of things than that, but there are very few games targeted at my other interests.

That's not how you sell millions of copies and make money. You don't make money by questioning a trend just because Nirolak or george_us thinks they're unique snowflake.
The trends don't say males who play video games loves baking cookies or tracking their weight using a fitness board. The TRENDS say that males who play video games love shooting shit up and shooting each other up online in the most violent way possible. If I'm a publisher, I don't give a shit if george_us thinks multiplayer and achievements are a waste of time. I give a shit that george_us's group of gamer friends LOVES multiplayer games and achievements. I don't give a shit if george_us thinks a woman who uses her hair to kick angels in the face while occasionally feeling herself up is hilarious and awesome, I give a shit if his group of gamer friends doesn't.

The reason why there are very few games targeted at your other interests is, most likely, because there are very few gamers who share your interests and certainly not enough to make any significant amount of money off of.

Are there some women who will never like first person shooters? Absolutely, but the exact same thing is true of men.

The problem is that there's no real evidence, at least none that I've seen, to suggest that there's a significant market out there for women who have any interest in first person shooters. As a businessman, you're not going to convince me to give you millions of dollars on the reasoning of "b-b-but there's gotta be large female market out there!" You'd better have some compelling evidence to back up or I'm going to tell you to find another publisher or fund it yourself.

 

[truly101]

The biggest issue raised here isn't even a matter of gender, it's the issue of Activision's internal "creative" process.

This is the same backwards P&G Soap style of management that nearly stopped Modern Warfare from getting made. Activision will eventually fall behind once their cash cows dry up if they continue as they are (though they still have Blizzard to keep them afloat I guess)

Hey you, stop talking about what the article was about and get with the knee jerk derailment, NOW!

 

[Ken Masters]

No female heroes from Activsion? Oh the horror of not having a female lead with DDD breasts so gamers can jack off too.

 

[tiff]

Agreed. One of the FIRST rules to critical thinking is to consider the credibility of your sources. This woman goes off on rampages, is a feminist, and she misquotes figures by over 100x there amount live in interviews, and argues that she is correct no matter what viable arguments are presented to her.

i love how you throw in "is a feminist" like it's just as bad as the other things you listed.

i love how that's not the first time that's happened in this thread.

 

[FStop7]

misogynistic neckbeard rage GO GO GO

 

[Blast Processing]

is Jexhius Leigh Axelander's publicist or something? someone (i think its Jexhius) posts a thread for pretty much every gamasutra article she writes recently...

Come to think of it, I've never seen them posting at the same time in the same thread... WHAT IF JEXHIUS IS LEIGH ALEXANDER?

 

[Domstercool]

I cry because you forgot to add the almighty Aya Brea to the female lead list Parasite Eve is good

 

[bhlaab]

There was a thing about Crackdown 2 not allowing the player to choose a female avatar. The reason those devs-- and a lot of other devs-- give is that it wasn't cost effective to create and test both male and female characters.

However, that made me wonder why they immediately choose to default to male and leave female as the extra option (or "other") Similarly cannon fodder baddies in games are more or less exclusively male, with females being reserved for "special" baddies such as the Elite SS of Wolfenstein or the Assassins in Half Life.

There are tons of games with an all-male cast. I'd really like to see a game where every single character is a female, down to the generic evil grunts. Also, fuck it, how about the game is also made by a 100% female development team. Not even so much as an excercise in equality, but just as a thought experiment.

 

[MC Safety]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11_ywaTT-MY

Dear lord. Game journalists being shrill and yelling at each other.

 

[timetokill]

Also, fuck it, how about the game is also made by a 100% female development team. Not even so much as an excercise in equality, but just as a thought experiment.

You greatly overestimate the amount of female development staff in the industry. But if you wanted to -- sure, you can find producers, designers, and artists -- but female engineers? Rare as hell. Just like in the education system.

 

[faceless007]

Agreed. One of the FIRST rules to critical thinking is to consider the credibility of your sources. This woman goes off on rampages, is a feminist, and she misquotes figures by over 100x there amount live in interviews, and argues that she is correct no matter what viable arguments are presented to her.

It stands to reason someone like this would ignore any facts, or figures that disagree with her own bias, and that she would likely quote things out of context in order to justify her own opinion.

Seriously...how the fuck do you quote a cost as $775 million when its $7.75 million, and never once think that its a little steep for renting anything for a day? That's more than it cost to make Avatar, and she argued to the death that she was right because she never believes she is wrong no matter what facts are presented.

Holy crap. Did she turn down you for a date or something?

 

[mollipen]

Well in that case you should play Rule of Rose-the main character is a teen girl that can't run or engage in any type of combat to save her life. I'd rather punch myself in my own dick than play that game again.

I did, and loved the game! (Not for the reasons we're talking about here though.)

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Leigh is pretty much the textbook definition of obnoxious. She's essentially on the money with this article, though.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Judging by this thread, seems more like the opposite.

Wow, yeah.

 

[seady]

Maybe off topic:

People who fights for women's right are the same ones who discriminate. If women are equal to men, why do women need to have a special set of rules and regulations to 'protect' them? They are just reinforcing the idea that women are different than men.

 

[dead souls]

Maybe off topic:

People who fights for women's right are the same ones who discriminate. If women are equal to men, why do women need to have a special set of rules and regulations to 'protect' them? They are just reinforcing the idea that women are different than men.

What are you even talking about? How is asking for equality, which is the core of feminism, asking for special rules or regulations?

 

[ProfessorLobo]

What are you even talking about? How is asking for equality, which is the core of feminism, asking for special rules or regulations?

For instance, women are perfectly free to marry men, but can other men? No. I'm tired of all these special rights for women.

 

[TheChaos]

Maybe off topic:

People who fights for women's right are the same ones who discriminate. If women are equal to men, why do women need to have a special set of rules and regulations to 'protect' them? They are just reinforcing the idea that women are different than men.

Show me where feminists are asking for a special set of rules, I'm not following. Most women are upset at the lack of proper representation and want to see more multi-faceted women in the media, which is 100% reasonable. It's pretty funny how many movies fail the Bechdel Test.

 

[bhlaab]

Maybe off topic:

People who fights for women's right are the same ones who discriminate. If women are equal to men, why do women need to have a special set of rules and regulations to 'protect' them? They are just reinforcing the idea that women are different than men.

god damn femiNAZIS

 

[r1chard]

It's pretty funny how many movies fail the Bechdel Test.

How many video games pass it?

Edit: I didn't think I was the first to pose this question. Some of the comments in that post are quite interesting.

 

[TheChaos]

How many video games pass it?

Party-based RPGs, I assume. Can't think of many others. In Uncharted, did Elena and Chloe talk about something other than Nathan Drake? Don't remember.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Maybe off topic:

People who fights for women's right are the same ones who discriminate. If women are equal to men, why do women need to have a special set of rules and regulations to 'protect' them? They are just reinforcing the idea that women are different than men.

:lol Seriously?

 

[jonnyp]

diversity is missing in video games period.

it's all bald space marines and aliens.

if there is any gender or race... it's a stereotyped caricature of them



and focus testing doesn't work well when it comes to bringing NEW ideas... then again... new ideas isn't really Activisions forte.

Completely agree.

 

[xbhaskarx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11_ywaTT-MY

:lol :lol :lol
Wow, no concept of money whatsoever, that is really embarrassing.

How about a female hero that isn't overly sexualized? What a concept!

This is what it comes down to for me. I would rather play as a typical macho white male bald space marine (every FPS) than as a scantily clad woman with enormous breasts (Lara Croft, Ivy, etc.).

 

[Kinitari]

Agreed. One of the FIRST rules to critical thinking is to consider the credibility of your sources. This woman goes off on rampages, is a feminist, and she misquotes figures by over 100x there amount live in interviews, and argues that she is correct no matter what viable arguments are presented to her.

It stands to reason someone like this would ignore any facts, or figures that disagree with her own bias, and that she would likely quote things out of context in order to justify her own opinion.

Seriously...how the fuck do you quote a cost as $775 million when its $7.75 million, and never once think that its a little steep for renting anything for a day? That's more than it cost to make Avatar, and she argued to the death that she was right because she never believes she is wrong no matter what facts are presented.

Wasn't she drunk off her ass?

 

[xbhaskarx]

Wasn't she drunk off her ass?

1. Maybe she was somewhat tipsy, but from the video she definitely doesn't appear to be drunk off her ass.
2. The drunk people I have been around don't seem to lose all concept of what things cost in the real world. "The Staples Center!!" How much does she think concerts at stadiums cost to put on?

 

[Surreal]

Her voice is so shrill. My ears...

 

[Mooreberg]

Somebody needs to make a game where the female voice over clips are a compilation of her drunken idiocy from E3 edition bombcasts.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

wow at the first page of this thread =|

edit: and most of this page, jesus

 

[Jex]

Hey guys hows this thread being going sinc-

wow at the first page of this thread =|

edit: and most of this page, jesus

 

[firehawk12]

<>

I'm not surprised that this turned into a Leigh hate thread, but anyway... I'll just say that I find it interesting that no one has come up with a Twilight video game tie in.

It`s the biggest franchise at the moment that directly targets girls/women, but no one is willing to figure out a way to make a game for them that doesn't involve shooting someone in the face. Even Bobby Kotick must realize that the female audience is waiting to be exploited.

 

[JessicaPadkin]

I don't understand how people can say women aren't interested in FPS. The female audience for Valve shooters and Shadowrun are pretty sizeable in comparison to the male audience. In shadowrun and L4D I have been in matches where there are more women than men. There are hardcore FPS that do appeal to women.

Wasn't Quake also known for having an usually high female fanbase? I think it comes down to encouragement a lot of the time; many female gamers are introduced to games through their boyfriends, friends or families, because there's no cultural encouragement for women to play (action) games.

I recently got a bunch of non-gamers to play a few console FPSes/action games, including some women, and I found it interesting how much they actually liked the themes and the violence. You don't want to know how much my 70-something year old grandma enjoyed smashing splicers over the head with a wrench. :lol

Personally, I think it's only a matter of time before someone creates a 'hardcore'/action game that reaches a significant female audience as well.

 

[Zoe]

<>

I'm not surprised that this turned into a Leigh hate thread, but anyway... I'll just say that I find it interesting that no one has come up with a Twilight video game tie in.

It`s the biggest franchise at the moment that directly targets girls/women, but no one is willing to figure out a way to make a game for them that doesn't involve shooting someone in the face. Even Bobby Kotick must realize that the female audience is waiting to be exploited.

The craze came out from nowhere, and the longevity is questionable once the final movie is released. The development time is probably seen as too much of a risk considering they wouldn't be able to just take an action game template for it.

 

[firehawk12]

The craze came out from nowhere, and the longevity is questionable once the final movie is released. The development time is probably seen as too much of a risk considering they wouldn't be able to just take an action game template for it.

That's my point.

The gaming industry is so inbred and bereft of originality that the only narrative focused games people can make are murder simulators. Even RPGs are turning into action based games/shooters (ME2, I'm looking at you).

 

[Brobzoid]

the amount of time you seemingly spend thinking about a twilight game is of such a magnitude you probably should just start developing one yourself. make it a Visual novel for the iPad. You will sell hotcakes.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Does anyone remember when GTA: San Andreas was announced and the collective reaction on GAF (as well as elsewhere on the internet) leant heavily towards "I don't like the main character. It's not racist, I just can't 'relate'. I can't 'see myself in his shoes'"?

*shakes head*

I've seen someone post that the they didn't like the protagonist of FFXIII being female because women saving the world isn't "realistic".

So unfortunately that excuse hasn't gone out of style.