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[Haly]

I just don't think its addressing whats at the heart of the matter: why be good? What purpose are you serving? How does this give meaning and purpose to your life? Religion gives context to many of the better things in life: Kindness, charity, Family, Love, Peace. What are those things like in when Religion is stripped away?

I think the fact that you need to give someone an incentive to be virtuous is kind of disturbing in itself. Be kind to others or burn in hell? Why not be kind to others because it's a nice thing to do.

Anyway if you need an explicit reason: Pale Blue Dot

 

[Fenderputty]

You are free to believe or not to believe in anything. Just don't use science in religious arguments.

What if the argument is about the bible stating the world being about 5000 years old? There's plenty of religious arguments that science should be in. The existence of a GOD, maybe not so much.

 

[szaromir]

What if the argument is about the bible stating the world being about 5000 years old? There's plenty of religious arguments that science should be in. The existence of a GOD, maybe not so much.

OK, agreed.

 

[soul creator]

It's an echo chamber in here, but this is what happens on the internet when you have mod-sanctioned, like-minded circles of conversation where dissent is put down until it doesn't have a voice.

those poor, oppressed religious believers

 

[LosDaddie]

As one of those crazy Christians who believe in things like evolution, this news doesn't bother me one bit.

I find comfort in AMericans questioning those supposed traditional American "values"

 

[Dever]

I understand that not being tied to a set of rules can be liberating - you can do whatever you want where as before you had restrictions (in response to an earlier quote from another poster). I also understand that doing good for the sake of doing good, because you want to, not because a god has told you to, can feel rewarding.

I just don't think its addressing whats at the heart of the matter: why be good? What purpose are you serving? How does this give meaning and purpose to your life? Religion gives context to many of the better things in life: Kindness, charity, Family, Love, Peace. What are those things like in when Religion is stripped away?

Why not be good because it feels good? I don't want to rape or murder, rather I want to be nice to others. You're right that religion has many great things in it. It has also some of the most immoral and despicable ideas humanity has invented; it's just about which parts you choose to follow and which parts you dismiss. Why not keep the good stuff and throw out the superstition and the immoral stuff?

 

[Zero Hero]

I would be interested to hear about how you found more meaning and happiness in life outside of religion.

The absence of guilt is great.

 

[CultureClearance]

Just as nice and just as important. But my context is within humanity, not something out there.

I may understand that my love for my children is based in an evolutionary need to pass on my genetics, but that does not change how they make me feel.

Exactly. Believing in something that blackmails you into being nice (or convinces you that you aren't nice without some kind of shame attached) only muddles the human condition. Telling your kids that if you don't behave, you won't be getting christmas presents isn't helping you, your kids or santa claus.
I'm a nice guy cause I was brought up by a great family to be a nice guy. I had good friends from kindergarten all the way to my college graduation that were good influences too. That's why I am why I am.
If a lifeguard saves me from drowning someday, I won't be thanking him once and god twice. I'll instead be thanking that lifeguard 3 times. I will hopefully learn from my lesson and not think too highly of myself in thinking some higher magician saved me for some non-sensical reason. I swam where I shouldn't or whatever and I got lucky. I won't muddle the situation in any way. The lifeguard is a hero, and I'm an ass that put him and myself in danger.

 

[Vinci]

those poor, oppressed religious believers

I'd say they're more oppressed in this setting than in the outside world, yes. Not that it matters one way or another.

 

[MrHicks]

atheist americans should seriously create some kind of lobby where they support each other

as of right now being atheist is political suicide which is totally fucked up
makes you wonder how many closet atheists there are in government

 

[Count Dookkake]

It's an echo chamber in here, but this is what happens on the internet when you have mod-sanctioned, like-minded circles of conversation where dissent is put down until it doesn't have a voice.

Sure beats inquisitions, witch burnings and the like.

 

[Davidion]

It's an echo chamber in here, but this is what happens on the internet when you have mod-sanctioned, like-minded circles of conversation where dissent is put down until it doesn't have a voice.

Except the person(s) in this thread expressing a different viewpoint has been met with both counter-arguments and agreements, depending on the point they've argued. Fancy that.

I believe that the fact that you've no actual point or contribution to make to the discussion at hand while complaining about group-think is commonly referred to as "irony".

 

[SnakeXs]

It's an echo chamber in here, but this is what happens on the internet when you have mod-sanctioned, like-minded circles of conversation where dissent is put down until it doesn't have a voice.

Poor thing. An internet message board is mean to you and your invisible man in the sky.

Try taking the opposite stance, in the real world. I think it'll be a bit more jarring.

 

[Fenderputty]

I just don't think its addressing whats at the heart of the matter: why be good? What purpose are you serving? How does this give meaning and purpose to your life? Religion gives context to many of the better things in life: Kindness, charity, Family, Love, Peace. What are those things like in when Religion is stripped away?

Why do I have to believe in a religion for any of these things to provide meaning? Family, Kindness, Charity, Love and Peace all feel the same to me now that I'm not religious.

How does religion add to any of this?

 

[Vinci]

Sure beats inquisitions, witch burnings and the like.

People suck in mass regardless of what they believe, man. I'm not defending that heinous shit, just that it's easy to find examples backing up the dismissal of Christianity because well, there's just been that many Christians to cause fucked up things to happen.

 

[CultureClearance]

As one of those crazy Christians who believe in things like evolution, this news doesn't bother me one bit.

I find comfort in AMericans question those supposed traditional American "values"

You're one of the good ones then. Nobody should really take massive-huge-statistics as anything but that. It's just the world turning and there's nothing you can do about it. If anything it's just interesting. If "non-religion" dies someday and religion regrows, oh well, I'm a super-minority again. Ok. That changes nothing to me.
Taking statistics of millions of people personally (good or bad) is useless. Let the world turn because it's going to anyway.

Dylan said it very well - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgECKj9LSH4

 

[Asmodai]

me too; facts and evidence should never get in the way of bronze age myths after all!

Now now, they aren't bronze age myths. The bronze age ended around 600 BC.

More accurately, they're ancient Jewish fairy tales. Get your facts straight! :lol

atheist americans should seriously create some kind of lobby where they support each other

as of right now being atheist is political suicide which is totally fucked up
makes you wonder how many closet atheists there are in government

Move to Canada. Much less religious fanaticism here. The US deserves more brain drain anyway.

People suck in mass regardless of what they believe, man. I'm not defending that heinous shit, just that it's easy to find examples backing up the dismissal of Christianity because well, there's just been that many Christians to cause fucked up things to happen.

Really? There are a LOT of atheists around, as the thread title postulates. What have atheists ever done as a group that's evil? (and don't try "The Soviet Union", that was a political ideology.)

 

[DevelopmentArrested]

It's an echo chamber in here, but this is what happens on the internet when you have mod-sanctioned, like-minded circles of conversation where dissent is put down until it doesn't have a voice.

Religion has that in real life. Wanna switch?
I'm sorry this forum isn't like your everyday being where your 'beliefs' aren't questioned and where critical thought isn't applicable, please continue to happily live in fairytale land though.

 

[Vinci]

Really? There are a LOT of atheists around, as the thread title postulates. What have atheists ever done as a group that's evil? (and don't try "The Soviet Union", that was a political ideology.)

You're honestly suggesting that if all humans were atheists that all our violence and evildoing ways would be behind us once and for all? A lot of people who believe the same thing aren't ordinarily wonderful to those who don't. If you think that's going to change once that percentage shifts more towards the non-religion side, you're kidding yourself.

 

[Kinitari]

It's an echo chamber in here, but this is what happens on the internet when you have mod-sanctioned, like-minded circles of conversation where dissent is put down until it doesn't have a voice.

What do you mean 'Dissent is put down until it doesn't have a voice.'? If someone says something I personally don't agree with, and I want to debate the point with them I should what... let it slide if it feels like too many people disagree with them?

People who voice opinions that are different from the majority here aren't being... 'put down' or 'shut down' or whatever - they are being challenged.

 

[Extollere]

I can't answer for Extollere, but my own answer is that atheism gives us true moral responsibility.

Theists see morality as a function of God's will, which is just another way of saying that if they do good things, it's because they believe that's what God wants them to do. That means they do good to earn God's approval, or to avoid punishment, or because they see God as the ultimate authority figure, or some other similar reason. This kind of morality is pathetic and childish. I mean that literally; it's the way children think: They're good little boys and girls because they want their parents to love them, or to avoid being spanked, or just because of the instinct to do what authority figures tell them to do.

On the other hand, an atheist that behaves morally does so because he or she wants to. My morality is a function of my will, not anyone else's. This is a very empowering feeling and gives much more meaning to my life than a supernatural father figure ever could.

I could really expand on this for my own personal reasons. Honestly I could write pages here, but you give one good example of a point that I eagerly share with you.

 

[proposition]

Another reason people bring science into debates about religion is that science offers alternative explanations for many claims made in religious texts, and in doing so, undermines the credibility of those texts.

For example, the Bible makes a claim that the Earth was created in six days (plus one day for God to rest), and that it was created around 6000-7000 years ago. The only justification for that claim is that the Bible is the word of God.

But the work of scientists places the age of the Earth at around 4.5 billion years, with a great deal of interlocking and supportive justification based on testable principles.

There are two claims being made here; the first is that the emprical claims of the Bible are discredited by science, and as such, the claims that it makes about God are supposedly also discredited. The second is that science offers an alternative explanation that doesn't rely on God, and so diminishes his requirement of existence.

Evolution does the same thing to the idea of God as a creator; evolution explains how the diversity of life on this planet came to be in a way that doesn't need God to do it.

 

[Haly]

You're honestly suggesting that if all humans were atheists that all our violence and evildoing ways would be behind us once and for all? A lot of people who believe the same thing aren't ordinarily wonderful to those who don't. If you think that's going to change once that percentage shifts more towards the non-religion side, you're kidding yourself.

I think you're missing the point. No one has ever went to war under the flag of Atheism, most conflicts can be attributed to political/religious/cultural/economic differences. A world without religion wouldn't be a utopia, but it will definitely be an improvement over what we have today. For one thing, there would be a lot less facepalm worthy threads concerning the middle east.

 

[VanMardigan]

Religion has that in real life. Wanna switch?
I'm sorry this forum isn't like your everyday being where your 'beliefs' aren't questioned and where critical thought isn't applicable, please continue to happily live in fairytale land though.

So this is payback for real life? It all makes sense now! :lol

My beliefs ARE questioned in real life, including by me. Critical thought is also applicable in real life. I do not live in fairytale land.

I do wish I could convince believers to treat you better when you step outside so you don't have to bash me and my beliefs in here.

 

[speculawyer]

atheist americans should seriously create some kind of lobby where they support each other

http://ffrf.org/

as of right now being atheist is political suicide which is totally fucked up
makes you wonder how many closet atheists there are in government

Pete Stark of Fremont, California

 

[VanMardigan]

Pete Stark of Fremont, California

And Barrack Obama of the White House.

 

[speculawyer]

Believing and stating that Earth exists for 6000 years is a sign of idiocy, not religion (or Christianity). The way religion is set up, you can't prove or disprove God's existence. And science can't prove it or disprove it, either. It's all about each person's faith, science has nothing to do with it, that's why I hate atheists doing it.

Well, it may not be part of your faith, but it is part of the faith for many.

Science has the right to address scientific claims made by various religions.

 

[Extollere]

For example, the Bible makes a claim that the Earth was created in six days (plus one day for God to rest), and that it was created around 6000-7000 years ago. The only justification for that claim is that the Bible is the word of God.

It's not even that it's the word of God. Most of the "science" in the Bible came from the Babylonians during the Babylonian Captivity when the Jews were forced out of Jerusalem around 600BC or so. At the time the Babylonians had the most up to date science, and it was taken by the Jews and incorporated into the Bible. We are literally adhering to old sciences here, outdated sciences, in favor of new and accurate ones. If something can be branded or validated as the word of God it can be viewed as correct and infallible, no matter how old, how incorrect, how immoral, how contradictory or ass-backwards it is. This is one of the huge major problems with the Bible (among many, many other things) and religion. The way in which so many wrong things are clearly and uniformly asserted and then acted upon with such arrogance has killed uncountable amounts of people, and stunted incalculable lengths of scientific and educational growth.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

And Barrack Obama of the White House.

You just don't wanna admit he's a secret Kenyan Muslim.

 

[speculawyer]

And Barrack Obama of the White House.

He's not a closet atheist, he's a closet Muslim!

BTW, is your suspicion of him being an atheist one of the reasons you dislike him?

 

[Asmodai]

You're honestly suggesting that if all humans were atheists that all our violence and evildoing ways would be behind us once and for all? A lot of people who believe the same thing aren't ordinarily wonderful to those who don't. If you think that's going to change once that percentage shifts more towards the non-religion side, you're kidding yourself.

I never said that every atheist was a Saint, did I? (lol at irony)

I said name something like the crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition, that atheists were responsible for.

If atheists and scientists in general today just said "we're tired of these backwards religious types, let's use our superior technology to wipe em out", they'd be at the same ethical level organized religion has been throughout history.

And Barrack Obama of the White House.

Oh yeah? Well you're a secret atheist! What do you think of that? And a secret communist, too! And a secret socialist. And a fascist. Don't even think about asking me how you can possibly be all of those things at once.

If FOX talking points are good enough for you and Sarah Palin, they're good enough for me! :lol

 

[Vinci]

I think you're missing the point. No one has ever went to war under the flag of Atheism, most conflicts can be attributed to political/religious/cultural/economic differences. A world without religion wouldn't be a utopia, but it will definitely be an improvement over what we have today. For one thing, there would be a lot less facepalm worthy threads concerning the middle east.

But that's the point of what I said: People are always going to have some reason to do horrible shit to each other. We'll always find a reason. If religion is no longer an excuse, then we'll find another. Removing one reason doesn't negate or lessen the outcome; it just changes the reason given for why that outcome occurred.

I'm just saying that people en masse are stupid. If they see someone against their viewpoint, they'll likely be very unkind to that person. All that matters is the context and what people it's comprised of.

 

[Kinitari]

And Barrack Obama of the White House.

NeoGAF wishes.

But in regards to your other post. You are going to get 'bashed' for all sorts of your beliefs throughout your life. And unfortunately when it comes to religious beliefs, you have to understand people do not feel obligated to step on eggshells to avoid making you feel uncomfortable. Especially on the internet - maybe in real life people who don't agree with you will only silently judge you to avoid confrontation, but that trepidation does not exist online.

If you want to discuss and argue your beliefs here, bring them to the table - but understand people will be ruthless, some may mince their words to save your feelings, but those will most likely not be the majority.

As long as you come to the debate remembering that your beliefs are sacred only to you, there won't be any surprises.

 

[soul creator]

He's not a closet atheist, he's a closet Muslim!

BTW, is your suspicion of him being an atheist one of the reasons you dislike him?

VanMardigan is poking fun at atheists who think Obama is "one of them"

 

[MrHicks]

Pete Stark of Fremont, California

Stark is the first, and so far only, openly atheist member of the United States Congress

this sorta proves my point:lol

 

[Jasup]

I remember when I was young, at my grandfather's funeral when the priest spoke I suddenly realized that maybe these people believed those stories. Even when I was a child I couldn't grasp the idea of religion and have never understood religious faith. Maybe because religion feels alien to me I don't understand all the fuss here.

I know religious institutions work differently where ever we are and it's through these institutions the good and bad many times happen. I know also that historically speaking these intitutions have been a major force in evolution of societies. But apart from the institutional side, what's really the point of the argument?

 

[VanMardigan]

BTW, is your suspicion of him being an atheist one of the reasons you dislike him?

I have no such suspicion. Never have.

But is me being a Christian one of the reasons for your thinking that I don't like him?

 

[Count Dookkake]

Regarding closeted-atheists in politics:

Does anyone have the quote from Cicero (I think) that goes something like "The fool sees religion as truth, the wise see religion as false, and the powerful see it as useful"?

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Why do I have to believe in a religion for any of these things to provide meaning? Family, Kindness, Charity, Love and Peace all feel the same to me now that I'm not religious.

How does religion add to any of this?

But why are they still important? I'm not questioning that they are, just why.

I'm not suggesting that religion 'owns' something like charity, only that it provides context and understanding. Religious people don't question the value and purpose of something like that because thier religion answers those questions.

From a non-religous stand point, the answers I have in this thread so far are: Because earth is the only inhabitable world and we need to take care of it; Because doing something for the sake of doing it has more merit than doing it because a god has asked you to.

I don't want to talk about those two answers prematurely, I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing.

 

[Asmodai]

I have no such suspicion. Never have.

But is me being a Christian one of the reasons for your thinking that I don't like him?

That just means that Obama's such a secret atheist that he's fooled you! Don't be tricked!

Clearly, if he wasn't a secret atheist/Kenyan/Muslim, everyone would know about it.

I don't want to talk about those two answers prematurely, I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing.

Hmm, why do atheists like myself not do immoral things? Mainly because our demonic regent Lucifer commands that we not reveal our true, evil nature until the ending of the Earth.

Wait, we weren't supposed to tell you about that! Dammit!

Seriously though, it's quite simple. I am a law abiding citizen of my nation, and I recognize that abiding by the rule of law is the only way for human society to become better in the future.

More simply put, I don't steal because I wouldn't want to be stolen from.

 

[soul creator]

But that's the point of what I said: People are always going to have some reason to do horrible shit to each other. We'll always find a reason. If religion is no longer an excuse, then we'll find another. Removing one reason doesn't negate or lessen the outcome; it just changes the reason given for why that outcome occurred.

I'm just saying that people en masse are stupid. If they see someone against their viewpoint, they'll likely be very unkind to that person. All that matters is the context and what people it's comprised of.

Well that's quite cynical of you

Just for a blatantly obvious example, I doubt gay rights would be such a huge issue in our country if it wasn't for religious and faith-based thinking. Does that mean every instance of homophobia would cease to exist? Of course not. But it does mean that people's "reasons" for being anti-gay wouldn't be institutionally accepted or reinforced through holy books and church attendance, which would make it less likely for homophobic beliefs to take hold.

And that would be an improved society. Not perfect, but a much better one.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Why do I have to believe in a religion for any of these things to provide meaning? Family, Kindness, Charity, Love and Peace all feel the same to me now that I'm not religious.

How does religion add to any of this?

You don't have to personally believe in a religion, but that is because you have been influenced by a culture that is largely religious. Our laws, customs, societal norms, are all Christian based. It would take many generations of Christians in the minority for us to see what moral values an atheist-based society develops, and if works better than a religious based one.

 

[Kinitari]

But that's the point of what I said: People are always going to have some reason to do horrible shit to each other. We'll always find a reason. If religion is no longer an excuse, then we'll find another. Removing one reason doesn't negate or lessen the outcome; it just changes the reason given for why that outcome occurred.

I'm just saying that people en masse are stupid. If they see someone against their viewpoint, they'll likely be very unkind to that person. All that matters is the context and what people it's comprised of.

Consider that MANY of these viewpoints, even today, are borne from religious texts.

Like you said, people will for ever be stupid en masse, and commit all sorts of heinous things. But remove religion and not only would a lot of these conflicts seem ridiculous, many of them would not even exist.

You can claim that the conflicts that ceased to exist alongside religion would be replaced by... secular conflicts - but that's just you saying things, and has absolutely no basis in fact.

 

[speculawyer]

I have no such suspicion. Never have.

Why did you post that then?

 

[Haly]

But that's the point of what I said: People are always going to have some reason to do horrible shit to each other. We'll always find a reason. If religion is no longer an excuse, then we'll find another. Removing one reason doesn't negate or lessen the outcome; it just changes the reason given for why that outcome occurred.

While I agree with the general sentiment, I think it's rather cynical. Just because it might not help, doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Or else why do anything at all? Why not just keep the world in stasis.

 

[Dever]

Regarding closeted-atheists in politics:

Does anyone have the quote from Cicero (I think) that goes something like "The fool sees religion as truth, the wise see religion as false, and the powerful see it as useful"?

I couldn't find who exactly that quote is originally from, but it goes: "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."

 

[Asmodai]

Well that's quite cynical of you

Just for a blatantly obvious example, I doubt gay rights would be such a huge issue in our country if it wasn't for religious and faith-based thinking. Does that mean every instance of homophobia would cease to exist? Of course not. But it does mean that people's "reasons" for being anti-gay wouldn't be institutionally accepted or reinforced through holy books and church attendance, which would make it less likely for homophobic beliefs to take hold.

And that would be an improved society. Not perfect, but a much better one.

Aye! And the thing that proves your hypothesis is the existence of countries like Canada, where there IS much less religious fanaticism, and where there is also far less intolerance against gays. (and far less intolerance and ignorance in general, I might add)

Gay rights are no longer a political issue in Canada. It is the same in many other progressive Western European nations.

 

[Haly]

You don't have to personally believe in a religion, but that is because you have been influenced by a culture that is largely religious. Our laws, customs, societal norms, are all Christian based. It would take many generations of Christians in the minority for us to see what moral values an atheist-based society develops, and if works better than a religious based one.

Better yet, look at China.

(And no one make any cracks about the government, I mean the people.)

 

[Dever]

You don't have to personally believe in a religion, but that is because you have been influenced by a culture that is largely religious. Our laws, customs, societal norms, are all Christian based. It would take many generations of Christians in the minority for us to see what moral values an atheist-based society develops, and if works better than a religious based one.

If you're talking about the US, weren't the founding fathers actually deists? An atheist-based society would probably be bad sure, assuming that means religion being forbidden. Secularism is the way to go.

 

[VanMardigan]

But in regards to your other post. You are going to get 'bashed' for all sorts of your beliefs throughout your life. And unfortunately when it comes to religious beliefs, you have to understand people do not feel obligated to step on eggshells to avoid making you feel uncomfortable. Especially on the internet - maybe in real life people who don't agree with you will only silently judge you to avoid confrontation, but that trepidation does not exist online.

Yeah, I have no problems with any of the above, really. But what happens in most of these gaf religion threads goes far beyond the realm of discussion and disagreement. There is no other topic on gaf (other than perhaps the "truthers") where that sort of vitriol is allowed from one group to the next.

Discussion is fine. Like I said, having you question my beliefs is fine since I question my own beliefs. All of us do.