terrisus
Member
Geeze, I'm glad relocating from the US to other countries isn't like that :þ
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North Korea (DPRK) tourism |OT| - surreal, beautiful, friendly
- Thread starter Chittagong
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Geeze, I'm glad relocating from the US to other countries isn't like that :þ
Sectorseven
Member
I'm confused, the one guy tore up his visa seeking asylum in North Korea? Then when they arrested him he asked for help from America, the country he presumably denounced prior?
That's only Pyongyang, the area they want you to see. The rest of the country is in ruins.
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
One would hope that they keep spreading what's going on in Pyonyang then..
If anything, the opposite will happen as the country keeps becoming more and more poor.
I don't think anybody ever thought that. We are all well aware that the people are victims, which is the main tragedy of the entire North Korean 'problem'.
Gotta love how families are separated and torn apart because family members are forced to live in North Korea, they have to get smuggled out and if they get caught, work camp until death. Yet tourists are allowed to live luxuriously in comparison. All the shit you see while being a tourist is an excellent attempt at saving face.
The opening post honestly made me very angry, based on tone alone. Yeah, things are pleasant for tourists because they're paying for the best and metaphorically manufactured parts of a horrible society. Having anything nice to say about how that country is run and kept is playing right into what its terrible leaders want.
Citizens are slaves to what the evil Disney nightmare government wants. Yeah, but it isn't that bad guys.
The opening post honestly made me very angry, based on tone alone. Yeah, things are pleasant for tourists because they're paying for the best and metaphorically manufactured parts of a horrible society. Having anything nice to say about how that country is run and kept is playing right into what its terrible leaders want.
Citizens are slaves to what the evil Disney nightmare government wants. Yeah, but it isn't that bad guys.
FelixOrion
Poet Centuriate
That won't happen.
shacklesmcgee
Member
Felt this exact same way. I can't believe they're is someone saying to go to North Korea, it's not that bad at all!...like holy shit.
JordanN
Banned
Chittagong
Gold Member
In a way, tourists are treated similarly to 'people of the party' - people who are closest to the regime.
There is a very steep class society in DPRK that is immediately obvious once you are there. The lowest in rank are the people working in fields or cleaning up roads, wearing 1950s workers overalls. Then come people working in heavy labour such as construction and industry. Then come people working in basic utilities such as bus drivers... the ladder continues all the way up to 'people of the party' who drive western SUVs, wear bling white parkas with furred hoods and dine in the same restaurants as tourists. Where you are in the ladder is determined by your family lineage and to a much smaller extent, your skills in your task. Once you are in favour you will get perks such as skilled sports people getting to live in the blue 'sports house'.
It's this extremely granular caste system that was one of the most surprising findings to me as it is rather ironic in how it flies against the core socialist principles of Juche.
Aha, they have a giant umbrella. Makes me think of anime or cartoons.
They sure use their money on strange things...
Chittagong
Gold Member
An excellent read about what a typical day for a person in North Korea is like in Quora
http://www.quora.com/What-is-everyday-life-like-for-an-average-citizen-in-North-Korea
This aligns with my experience travelling through the countryside.
http://www.quora.com/What-is-everyday-life-like-for-an-average-citizen-in-North-Korea
This aligns with my experience travelling through the countryside.
Looks like the Truman Show, except instead of the guy driving round being trapped in that world it's everyone else.
DrGonzo615
Banned
-You cant leave the hotel unless you are with the group?
-You have to have permission to film and take pictures, or can only take pictures of some areas?
Fuck that, this sounds shady as hell, despite all the positive language TC uses. I try to make a habit of not visiting countries that could just randomly decide that you are a spy and throw you in jail for nothing.
-You have to have permission to film and take pictures, or can only take pictures of some areas?
Fuck that, this sounds shady as hell, despite all the positive language TC uses. I try to make a habit of not visiting countries that could just randomly decide that you are a spy and throw you in jail for nothing.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Walling North Korea off doesn't fix anything. Detente worked with China, it worked with Vietnam and Laos, it worked in Eastern Europe and East Germany, it would work with Cuba if we would actually try it, and it would work with North Korea.
The only way to break North Korea's siege mindset is to flood it with goods and money.
The situation in North Korea is pretty awful (but improving). But it isn't as awful as media portrays it to be.
There has been a defector on the news lately who gave a speech about the awful conditions of North Korea that contradict completely things she/her family said previously. I think one of the statements was something like "North Koreans don't even know what a love story is" even though she said that Titanic was her favorite movie previously, or that we know for a fact that Chinese and Korean Sitcoms and TV shows are regularly smuggled into the country.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005GSZZ1A/?tag=neogaf0e-20
did they show you the forced labor/death camps where generations of families are doomed to work because ancestors escaped/tried to escape
so much denial in a lot of posts. Yes, it actually is the worst place in the world to live. There's no hope of advancement for anyone living there, there's no hope of escape, and if something should go wrong, like, oh, say, a massive famine, you're fucked. There are still reports of people on the country side who eating fucking grass.
did they show you the forced labor/death camps where generations of families are doomed to work because ancestors escaped/tried to escape
so much denial in a lot of posts. Yes, it actually is the worst place in the world to live. There's no hope of advancement for anyone living there, there's no hope of escape, and if something should go wrong, like, oh, say, a massive famine, you're fucked. There are still reports of people on the country side who eating fucking grass.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
You should read that link.
North Korea asked for food aid and the US responded by reducing the amount we sent them.
SniperHunter
Banned
This book is very good. I recommend reading
Eh, I'm not giving any money to North Korea. It all ends up in the government's hands which just prolongs their ability to control the people and extend their suffering through more generations. North Korea is as evil as it gets, and I can't in good conscience give them money.
Leatherface
Member
No chance in hell I would ever visit a country for a "vacation" that is filled with death camps and ruled by a ruthless dictator that oppresses his own people. No fucking way.
no, it's totally fine, OP didn't see anything like that and completely understands life there despite not being able to talk to any normal, unmonitored citizens, who couldn't freely learn english if they wanted to.
boiled goose
good with gravy
I disagree with the general tone of the Op. I find misery tourism pretty disgusting personally. Comments by the op that North Korean girls are the prettiest and that he was surprised the people were upbeat adds to my disgust.I am glad you are amused and I'm glad it was not all depressing as you expected.
my feeling on the tours is mixed not only is money going to a bad regime but I'm sure the tours are used to prop the propaganda machine.
that said with such an isolated regime perhaps any exposure is good. I'm not sure
my feeling on the tours is mixed not only is money going to a bad regime but I'm sure the tours are used to prop the propaganda machine.
that said with such an isolated regime perhaps any exposure is good. I'm not sure
Leatherface
Member
OP you are either the most gullible person on the planet or Kim Jong-un.
Some of the ignorance in this thread, eh? What is the definition of a good country then, in your opinion? Look at the crimes of countries which are not "as evil as it gets" and we can talk again.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Starving them and cutting them off of the international market has resulted in far more death and destruction than opening up.
Yeah, the US had a much larger prison population than the USSR but, oh ho ho, don't want to go to the USSR under Stalin. Something bad might happen to you there. Or complaining about the 100,000 or so North Korean prisoners and their torture while the US has over 2 million people locked up in a system that regularly uses rape as torture.
It is pretty funny to see a bunch of people who's only exposure to North Korea is through Western portrayals of it want to talk down to someone who had the gall to actually go to the country and see it, and the people, for themselves.
boiled goose
good with gravy
I agree with you that all countries do terrible things but to paint them all with the same brush and include north korea there... is silly...at best ...
other governments are at least partially responsible and accountable to the people. It's not perfect but we are always making progress. But no and finland and North Korea are the same. As are north and south Korea. And Britain and saudi Arabia.
You are being very selective, if tourism was done right, you would find misery in every corner of this world. And no, Disney World is not misery tourism.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Hey i completely agree with you on the problems with the prison industrial complexin the US. It is something that we have to fix. But the nature of the solutions to the problemare completely different with the issues in North Korea.
saying something else is worse does not make the other thing suddenly better. Come on now you know better.I'm not going to bother discussing the obvious mischaracterizations in your post.
I don't understand your post at all. What do you mean tourism done right? In other counties you can go wherever the hell you want. I don't get your point about Disney world either.
So because North Korea is inherently evil and lolKimJongUn it can't make progress?
I don't know if this qualify as misery tourism, though I can't lie, as someone who have been there, this framing gave me pause.
I can only speak for myself, but I didn't went there to I witness misery or feel superior to anyone, and it is definitely (and obviously) not the goal of those tours.
As I already said in this thread, I'm just the type of person who always look for new and different experiences, and North Korea is pretty damn different, more so than any place I've ever been to.
I will concede that this is a pretty self centered point of view, but I can always lean on my favorite Mark Twain quote (which admittedly, at most is only partially applicable to a North Korean tour, and even that might be stretching it) - "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime."
But I might be just rationalizing me love of travel.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Umm that is a strawman if I ever saw one. Wow. If we are not going to discuss hhonestly I'm not going to bother.
I think we are being off-topic anyway, lol, but I think you clearly made the point that "we are always making progress" after saying other countries are at least partially responsible and accountable for their people, unlike North Korea.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Ok. Well do you agree or disagree that the current government of north korea is less accountable to its citizens than say the average western country or say south korea?
In a globalized world, where the responsiblity of the average western country reaches far beyond its borders, yes, I think we are in the process of f*cking it up.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
How do you suggest that we go see the north Korean prison camps ourselves so that we can verify the ones in America are just as bad
BronsonLee
Member
Today I learned that everyone in here hates Drew Scanlon :O
boiled goose
good with gravy
Oh I mostly agree with the general sentiment of your comment but that is not what I meant by the question. haha
Is the south Korean government more accountable to south koreans than the north korean government is to north koreans?
That is what I meant.
And see, that kind of pause is what is completely missing from the OP. Completely.
It comes off as a new form of exotic orientalism from the western perspective. All down to the comments about the women. I honestly found it depressing.
I love travel too. And while a personal benefit of going to north korea in person could be to be reminded that there are still people there that are humans just like we are, I would hope we wouldn't need this reminder. I don't get comments by the defense force that the portrayal of north korea is inaccurate. The main portrayal is that of an extremely oppressive regime with gross human rights violations seems pretty accurate to me. It has never been painted as a place of complete chaos, but rather one of complete control, which again, matches the experience in the OP.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Hahahah.
You think raining on your gloating is some kind of defense?
Of course it doesn't, but North Korea's problems isn't a carte blanche excuse to get hyperbolic or throw out emotional epithets so you can feel better about yourself. Its both hilarious and sad to see someone feign empathy for North Koreans, say that the regime is evil, and advocating a policy that actually hurts North Koreans.
Leatherface
Member
I can not believe N. Korea is being defended here. What the hell is wrong with you people? Read a book. Research. Maybe read some accounts of people that have escaped? In no way do I think the rest of the world is anywhere near perfect, but what is happening in N. Korea is horrific and you should not, under any circumstances, go on a fucking vacation there and give them any damn money.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Who is doing that?
A well put statement advocating that we go back to the policy of the 90s and withhold food and monetary aid with the specific aim to cause hardship and death in the North Korean people.
Those dastardly North Koreans are evil and we'll starve as many as we have to for them to realize that!
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Im not sure what you are trying to argue here? North Korea is horrible but not that horrible? Youre coming off like one of those people who claim that only a few hundred thousand people died in the holocaust
This is so dumb. Basically, a NK tourist guide whose job is to make you think NK is an utopian Worker's Paradise by walking you through a handful of very select Pyongyang locales is more trustworthy than actual North Koreans who escaped the country and share their horror stories.
Leatherface
Member
This is the lovely country OP supported with his visit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoeryong_concentration_camp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoeryong_concentration_camp
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
I'm kinda saying that people who like to rail on third world countries for being third world countries and advocating policies that will keep them third world countries are getting close to being racists and/or bigots.
How can you correlate pointing out how awful conditions in North Korea are but then advocate withholding money/aid?
Leatherface
Member
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
People who have actually been to the country and talked with the country's people have a slightly better edge over folks who only get their NK opinions from the latest scandal.
"I've been there"
vs
"I've read a book about it"
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