Support NeoGAF

[boiled goose]

Hahahah.

You think raining on your gloating is some kind of defense?



Of course it doesn't, but North Korea's problems isn't a carte blanche excuse to get hyperbolic or throw out emotional epithets so you can feel better about yourself. Its both hilarious and sad to see someone feign empathy for North Koreans, say that the regime is evil, and advocating a policy that actually hurts North Koreans.

wow. I believe that second quote was from my post?

Please show me where I said the regime is 'evil'., Though I would gladly criticize the North Korean regime if you want me to. The word evil is just silly. So you are going to defend the North Korean Regime now?? ok.

I'm not sure what policy I was advocating for?

I really don't understand your points at all.

People who have actually been to the country and talked with the country's people have a slightly better edge over folks who only get their NK opinions from the latest scandal.

"I've been there"

vs

"I've read a book about it"

See... I will disagree with your here.
I doubt most gaf posters are experts, but going somewhere on a guided tour does not really give you a better understanding of the country as a whole. You definitely have more experience of what the tour was like and felt like to you.
That said, you could be an expert on north korea and have never been there in person.

I'm not saying the opposite of your claim is true, I just don't buy yours either.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

I'm kinda saying that people who like to rail on third world countries for being third world countries and advocating policies that will keep them third world countries are getting close to being racists and/or bigots.

How can you correlate pointing out how awful conditions in North Korea are but then advocate withholding money/aid?

Oh, im with you there. I definatley think we should be giving them aid. It was the "you only have a western perspective" part of your statement that I disagreed with. If we wanted a balanced look at north korea then where should we go?

 

[Chairmanchuck]

People who have actually been to the country and talked with the country's people have a slightly better edge over folks who only get their NK opinions from the latest scandal.

"I've been there"
vs
"I've read a book about it"

Arent the ones who have been there been mostly just in Pyongyang?

 

[boiled goose]

Oh, im with you there. I definatley think we should be giving them aid. It was the "you only have a western perspective" part of your statement that I disagreed with. If we wanted a balanced look at north korea then where should we go?

I also agree with the general aid comment.
I do think something that can help bring down the current regime for the benefit of the people is a cultural war.

We should really try to send as much south korean fashion, pop music, western food, japanese porn, etc to the north. Once people get a taste of that, the regimes power will slowly fade. Hopefully not too violently, but that might be unavoidable...

 

[RM8]

People who have actually been to the country and talked with the country's people have a slightly better edge over folks who only get their NK opinions from the latest scandal.

"I've been there"

vs

"I've read a book about it"

I'll believe the North Koreans who are no longer terrified to speak their minds.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

wow. I believe that second quote was from my post?

Please show me where I said the regime is 'evil'., Though I would gladly criticize the North Korean regime if you want me to. The word evil is just silly. So you are going to defend the North Korean Regime now?? ok.

I'm not sure what policy I was advocating for?

I really don't understand your points at all.

This thread, not you, yourself, personally. Ctrl+f and see how often "evil" and the like is thrown around.

See... I will disagree with your here.
I doubt most gaf posters are experts, but going somewhere on a guided tour does not really give you a better understanding of the country as a whole. You definitely have more experience of what the tour was like and felt like to you.

That is not an unreasonable opinion to have. But if you don't think that would give anyone an insight then reading a book about a person who has a valid and righteous grudge against the country probably wouldn't give you any insight either.

That said, you could be an expert on north korea and have never been there in person.

I dunno. Even North Korea is accessible from "experts". I'd be slightly suspicious on an expert that hasn't physically engaged with his subject.

Oh, im with you there. I definatley think we should be giving them aid. It was the "you only have a western perspective" part of your statement that I disagreed with. If we wanted a balanced look at north korea then where should we go?

You can have it in this thread but anyone who tends to have a balanced view of the country gets thrown in the "defense force" crowd.

I mean, how many times have I said that North Korea has awful conditions in this thread? But nope, I'm definitely defending them.

 

[kick51]

People who have actually been to the country and talked with the country's people have a slightly better edge over folks who only get their NK opinions from the latest scandal.

"I've been there"

vs

"I've read a book about it"

Actually it's "I've read a book by people who have escaped from there or by someone whose information came from people who lived there and are not affiliated with the government in any way"

you don't get to talk to those people if you visit there. Are regular citizens even permitted to learn english or other languages in general?

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I also agree with the general aid comment.
I do think something that can help bring down the current regime for the benefit of the people is a cultural war.

We should really try to send as much south korean fashion, pop music, western food, japanese porn, etc to the north. Once people get a taste of that, the regimes power will slowly fade. Hopefully not too violently, but that might be unavoidable...

Opening up with China got them to reform. Copies of the show Dallas were smuggled into Romania and the people were told that that was how everyone in America lived.

Someone is pushing the same policy on North Korea as DVDs and sitcoms are getting easier to obtain there.

Are regular citizens even permitted to learn english or other languages in general?

Yes. It is taught at Pyongyang University and plenty of foreigners are hired to teach foreign language courses. This includes English.

Actually it's "I've read a book by people who have escaped from there or by someone whose information came from people who lived there and are not affiliated with the government in any way"

I think something like %80 of the NK population are also part of the military, so practically everyone in the country is affiliated with the government.

 

[PAULINK]

I also agree with the general aid comment.
I do think something that can help bring down the current regime for the benefit of the people is a cultural war.

We should really try to send as much south korean fashion, pop music, western food, japanese porn, etc to the north. Once people get a taste of that, the regimes power will slowly fade. Hopefully not too violently, but that might be unavoidable...

if you send south korean pop music then the north will just resent them even more, come on now.

 

[boiled goose]

I'm kinda saying that people who like to rail on third world countries for being third world countries and advocating policies that will keep them third world countries are getting close to being racists and/or bigots.

How can you correlate pointing out how awful conditions in North Korea are but then advocate withholding money/aid?

I really don't get you.
The racist/bigots comment is just wow.... I can't even try to understand your perspective here.

I haven't heard a strong voice on the thread saying that withholding aid is a good thing. I don't really think paying for tours directly to the government is really 'aid'. The problem is not just money, it is wealth distribution. If you just give more money to the powerful, you consolidate their power, not help those in need.

Whether the tours are a net positive or net negative, I don't know. But it is not a simple question.

if you send south korean pop music then the north will just resent them even more, come on now.

I disagree. If there is resentment to the south, it is to a caricature of the south. I think Kpop would be extremely liked by the average north korean. Humans are surprisingly similar.

 

[RM8]

Yes. It is taught at Pyongyang University and plenty of foreigners are hired to teach foreign language courses. This includes English.

If you're talking about PUST, it's a school exclusive to the North Korean elite. Definitely not for "regular citizens".

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Whether the tours are a net positive or net negative, I don't know. But it is not a simple question.

It has been a net positive in Cuba.

If you're talking about PUST, it's a school exclusive to the North Korean elite. Definitely not for "regular citizens".

It's a wiki entry but that's not the impression I get.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang_University_of_Science_and_Technology

Pyongyang University of Science and Technology (PUST) is North Korea's first privately funded university. It is founded, operated and partly funded by associations and people outside the country. PUST was jointly planned and constructed by forces from both the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and the Republic of Korea, along with contributions from groups and individuals from other nations, in particular China and the USA.

If the US is involved in funding and administering it I wouldn't suspect that it is a completely closed institution.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

ed dbl

 

[boiled goose]

It has been a net positive in Cuba.

I'm not well informed enough about the situation to agree or disagree, but OK.

Out of curiosity, what is your expertise in international politics? You seem to be quite opinionated and interested in the topic.

PUST sounds like a mixed bag. Outside influence is good, but evangelical christians...

 

[Demon Lizardman]

Everybody should watch this

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Out of curiosity, what is your expertise in international politics? You seem to be quite opinionated and interested in the topic.

My wife is Chinese, my father in law's work takes him to North Korea from time to time, a good friend of mine on FB does humanitarian work in and analysis of North Korea.

If the Liberal Arts were not such a massive money pit in the USA I'd have definitely gone into history and poli sci in college, but the job market for that was dead even when I was in school and has only gotten much worse since then.

I own and have read over a hundred books on world history, individual country histories, socialist and anti colonial movements, etc. Marxist leaning and use a Marxist interpretation of history as well.

I'd do it for a living if there was a living doing it.

 

[RM8]

It's a wiki entry but that's not the impression I get.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang_University_of_Science_and_Technology



If the US is involved in funding and administering it I wouldn't suspect that it is a completely closed institution.

Watch "Educating North Korea". It's a documentary, but it's sure better than a Wikipedia article It's a very small school in the most privileged city in the country, and students are rather well-off and have secured a job for life (in the words of one of the students). Absolutely not for the regular citizen of North Korea. Again, regular civilians who escape the country have a much different story to tell.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Watch "Educating North Korea". It's a documentary, but it's sure better than a Wikipedia article It's a very small school in the most privileged city in the country, and students are rather well-off and have secured a job for life (in the words of one of the students). Absolutely not for the regular citizen of North Korea.

Will look it up. Thanks for recommending it.

 

[RM8]

Will look it up. Thanks for recommending it.

It's very interesting and I'm hopeful these young students will learn about the outside world and make NK a better place once they're ruling the country. In my opinion this is an unlikely scenario as long as the country is ruled by a corrupt, murderous dynasty, but I genuinely hope for the best.

 

[boiled goose]

My wife is Chinese, my father in law's work takes him to North Korea from time to time, a good friend of mine on FB does humanitarian work in and analysis of North Korea.

If the Liberal Arts were not such a massive money pit in the USA I'd have definitely gone into history and poli sci in college, but the job market for that was dead even when I was in school and has only gotten much worse since then.

I own and have read over a hundred books on world history, individual country histories, socialist and anti colonial movements, etc. Marxist leaning and use a Marxist interpretation of history as well.

I'd do it for a living if there was a living doing it.

OK thanks.

This is informative.

 

[Mr. RHC]

We should really try to send as much south korean fashion, pop music, western food, japanese porn, etc to the north. Once people get a taste of that, the regimes power will slowly fade. Hopefully not too violently, but that might be unavoidable...

Sorry, haha, but this sounds like a really bad plan.

And to answer your previous question, yes, South Korea might be in a better position when it comes to economy, then again, ask the poorest in South Korea what they think of it.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

It's very interesting and I'm hopeful these young students will learn about the outside world and make NK a better place once they're ruling the country. In my opinion this is an unlikely scenario as long as the country is ruled by a corrupt, murderous dynasty, but I genuinely hope for the best.

Another interesting thing that we can hopefully/eventually compare to China is that in China once the Universities reopened, China would send students abroad to learn about how foreign societies work, learn from their advanced education, and encourage them to return.

Wouldn't hurt to try it with North Korea as well.

South Korea might be in a better position when it comes to economy, then again, ask the poorest in South Korea what they think of it.

Or what they thought of the country when they lived in a planned economy under a violent right wing dictatorship between the early 60s and late 80s. South Korea even had its own Tienanmen when students protested the dictatorship and were gunned down. Funny how our media doesn't hold yearly memorials for that though...

The US was more than willing to soak South Korea's military dictatorship and planned economy and look how well it worked out. So why not soak North Korea's dictatorship and planned economy?

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

ed dbl

 

[Leatherface]

I really don't get you.
The racist/bigots comment is just wow.... I can't even try to understand your perspective here.

I haven't heard a strong voice on the thread saying that withholding aid is a good thing. I don't really think paying for tours directly to the government is really 'aid'. The problem is not just money, it is wealth distribution. If you just give more money to the powerful, you consolidate their power, not help those in need.

Whether the tours are a net positive or net negative, I don't know. But it is not a simple question.

Well said. /agree

 

[boiled goose]

Sorry, haha, but this sounds like a really bad plan.
And to answer your previous question, yes, South Korea might be in a better position when it comes to economy, then again, ask the poorest in South Korea what they think of it.

It is already happening, information can't be completely controlled. I can assure you that K dramas are going to be pretty popular if not already...

And that is not what I asked. I did not ask about the economy, I asked about government accountability, but of course the answer is yes. If you disagree, feel free to point it out, but I doubt it.

So in conclusion, your first post attacking my position was a complete strawman, but in the end it seems we agree.

Also, I agree that the poor in a lot of 'capitalistic' countries are completely disenfranchised and powerless. That is something that we all have to work to fix. Given that our governments are at least (currently partially) accountable to the citizens, it is our responsibility. I don't see capitalism and socialism as exclusive systems, societies need ideas from both. Capitalism appeals to our sense of fairness, ambition, and our inherent selfishness. Socialism appeals to our empathy and altruism, and also our sense of fairness in some cases. A society has to be designed so that most people can operate in it. Move too far in one direction and you run into problems. /off topic

Another interesting thing that we can hopefully/eventually compare to China is that in China once the Universities reopened, China would send students abroad to learn about how foreign societies work, learn from their advanced education, and encourage them to return.

Wouldn't hurt to try it with North Korea as well.

North koreans going abroad would of course be great.
That said, I am sometimes shocked by some of the perspective of Chinese students in the US. They are extremely intelligent and in some ways the future, yet brainwashing and indoctrination is present. (of course this is present in other countries as well... just need to look at extremes in Europe or the USA, but generally at universities you get a more open mix).
That said, exposure is better than no exposure.

 

[Mr. RHC]

The US was more than willing to soak South Korea's military dictatorship and planned economy and look how well it worked out. So why not soak North Korea's dictatorship and planned economy?

It was a bizzare comparison to begin with. South Korea is one of the most advanced countries in the world and we are discussing whether or not North Korea is too evil to visit places where people live a relative stable life. All I'm asking for is some perspective.

 

[Des0lar]

Or what they thought of the country when they lived in a planned economy under a violent right wing dictatorship between the early 60s and late 80s. South Korea even had its own Tienanmen when students protested the dictatorship and were gunned down. Funny how our media doesn't hold yearly memorials for that though...

The US was more than willing to soak South Korea's military dictatorship and planned economy and look how well it worked out. So why not soak North Korea's dictatorship and planned economy?

Something I have noticed as well. Early South Korea was eerily similar to current NK, but the West supported it heavily and through civil disobedience and revolts it managed to become a modern democratic state (similar to a lot of nations democratization process I might add)

So NK is in a similar position but everyone (except China) refuse to support it.
I feel if the West and other rich nations would support NK more in exchange for things like the deconstruction of the internment camps and replacing them with modern prison facilities we could get NK to open up to the West more and support its people.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

It is already happening, information can't be completely controlled. I can assure you that K dramas are going to be pretty popular if not already...

Don't worry, it is definitely already happening.

North koreans going abroad would of course be great.
That said, I am sometimes shocked by some of the perspective of Chinese students in the US. They are extremely intelligent and in some ways the future, yet brainwashing and indoctrination is present. (of course this is present in other countries as well... just need to look at extremes in Europe or the USA, but generally at universities you get a more open mix).
That said, exposure is better than no exposure.

What do you mean by brainwashed/indoctrinated?

It was a bizzare comparison to begin with. South Korea is one of the most advanced countries in the world and we are discussing whether or not North Korea is too evil to visit places where people live a relative stable life. All I'm asking for is some perspective.

I'm talking about in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. North and South Korea were very comparable to each other back then and in the 60s and 70s the US sent tons of stimulus to South Korea.

Something I have noticed as well. Early South Korea was eerily similar to current NK, but the West supported it heavily and through civil disobedience and revolts it managed to become a modern democratic state (similar to a lot of nations democratization process I might add)

So NK is in a similar position but everyone (except China) refuse to support it.
I feel if the West and other rich nations would support NK more in exchange for things like the deconstruction of the internment camps and replacing them with modern prison facilities we could get NK to open up to the West more and support its people.

A problem we have at the moment is that we reneged on our agreements in the 90s. North Korea doesn't view us as very trustworthy as a result.

If we could build some kind of international power plant on the border I think the ability to keep the lights on alone would do a ton to build up good will.

 

[Supermanisdead]

do not go on a fucking tour of north kroea. you are doing nothing but lining the pockets of the most evil regime in the modern world. they have fucking concentration camps. this thread is an embarrassment.

 

[Mr. RHC]

And that is not what I asked. I did not ask about the economy, I asked about government accountability, but of course the answer is yes. If you disagree, feel free to point it out, but I doubt it.

So in conclusion, your first post attacking my position was a complete strawman, but in the end it seems we agree.

How is economic accountability a strawman now? I think I can confidently say that your argument of government accountability is very vague.

 

[boiled goose]

Don't worry, it is definitely already happening.
What do you mean by brainwashed/indoctrinated?

If you are on the average campus of the USA, you will see a lot of discussions about issues with US policy, criticism of the government, etc. It is almost as if there is nothing more American than criticizing the government. This is a very good thing in my eyes.

Something that I think the Chinese government has been successful at is equating the Chinese government to the Chinese people, which given the lack of open representation compared to more democratic countries is actually ironic.

(a generalization) but in my experience, the students have an inability for criticism and really buy into the talking points pushed by the government, instead of having a more nuanced perspective based on facts. Again, this is not everyone, you get a mix.

How is economic accountability a strawman now? I think I can confidently say that your argument of government accountability is very vague.

I agree 'accountability' is vague. I guess it would mean mechanisms available for citizens to affect change in the government. I still think you will agree.

Ignore the strawman thing, it was referring to a past post not the last one. Don't worry about it.

 

[Mr. RHC]

do not go on a fucking tour of north kroea. you are doing nothing but lining the pockets of the most evil regime in the modern world. they have fucking concentration camps. this thread is an embarrassment.

But I respect your opinion regardless.

 

[boiled goose]

But I respect your opinion regardless.

The post while strong worded and perhaps hyperbolic, was not responded to.

-They have concentration camps.
-Money is going to the government

Instead of dismissing, you should respond with a more substantive explanation as to why you disagree.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

Something I have noticed as well. Early South Korea was eerily similar to current NK, but the West supported it heavily and through civil disobedience and revolts it managed to become a modern democratic state (similar to a lot of nations democratization process I might add)

So NK is in a similar position but everyone (except China) refuse to support it.
I feel if the West and other rich nations would support NK more in exchange for things like the deconstruction of the internment camps and replacing them with modern prison facilities we could get NK to open up to the West more and support its people.

In a way, yes but civil disobedience and revolts only went so far and it took the assassination of a military dictator to really help with the democratic process... and that was after said Park put in place the infrastructure to make SK an economic powerhouse.

That was 35 years ago. Take into account also that NK has always been far more suppressive even back then with Park in charge (where yes it was a martial-law run country for about a decade) and add the 35 plus years, a stubborn insistence on their Juche ideology, and what you get is that there's a LOT of catching up to do in NK.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

If you are on the average campus of the USA, you will see a lot of discussions about issues with US policy, criticism of the government, etc. It is almost as if there is nothing more American than criticizing the government. This is a very good thing in my eyes.

Something that I think the Chinese government has been successful at is equating the Chinese government to the Chinese people, which given the lack of open representation compared to more democratic countries is actually ironic.

(a generalization) but in my experience, the students have an inability for criticism and really buy into the talking points pushed by the government, instead of having a more nuanced perspective based on facts. Again, this is not everyone, you get a mix.

I get what you're saying, but I think depending on where you are/what college you can find that in the US as well. I was in college in a right wing state in the Bush years and remember feeling that way about many of my classmates.

Also check out the book What Does China Think? It tries to cover the various political debates and experiments in democracy conducted by the CPC inside China.

That was 35 years ago. Take into account also that NK has always been far more suppressive even back then with Park in charge (where yes it was a martial-law run country for about a decade) and add the 35 plus years, a stubborn insistence on their Juche ideology, and what you get is that there's a LOT of catching up to do in NK.

Didn't Park have his own Buzzword Ideology? Yushin or something?

-They have concentration camps.
-Money is going to the government

Instead of dismissing, you should respond with a more substantive explanation as to why you disagree.

Most countries have shitty prisons and money given to the NK government will inevitably be used for the citizenry?

 

[Mr. RHC]

The post while strong worded and perhaps hyperbolic, was not responded to.

-They have concentration camps.
-Money is going to the government

Instead of dismissing, you should respond with a more substantive explanation as to why you disagree.

I disagree with calling other countries "most evil regimes everr" while western states have institutional murder, political persecution and other atrocities as well. I don't subscribe to this "who is the most true evil" notion.

And you yourself asked for an honest debate.

 

[Khrno]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread, seeing all the different opinions (even the extremist ones), and although I never considered going to NK or even SK, I would actually like to go now and see both sides of the coin by myself.

I was mesmerized with the cultural differences when I went to Berlin in 2006, so I can only imagine how it would be to visit these two countries.

As for the record, I'm from a western country with its own internal violent/war conflict.

 

[Izayoi]

Most countries have shitty prisons and money given to the NK government will inevitably be used for the citizenry?

You're comparing a shitty prison to a concentration camp?

Are you serious?

Not only that, but you can't be so naive as to actually believe that the money going to government is going to be used for anything other than subjugating and disenfranchising the people of North Korea.

 

[Mr. RHC]

You're comparing a shitty prison to a concentration camp?

Are you serious?

I think he/she is talking about very shitty prisons, those types where they lock up terrorists and the like. And we know they exist!

 

[Izayoi]

I think he/she is talking about very shitty prisons, those types where they lock up terrorists and the like. And we know they exist!

You'd be hard pressed to get me to believe that even Guantanamo Bay is as bad as a camp where they beat children to death in front of their families for stealing kernels of corn.

 

[Carlius]

excellent OP man, very very interesting. Thanks for the info

 

[Syntsui]

These kind of threads are incredible social experiments, the responses are always really wild.

Anyway, interesting trip OP. Thanks for sharing this.

 

[Lord Error]

That was really an enjoyable and interesting read. DPRK reminds me of a more extreme version of socialist Yugoslavia where I grew up. Yugoslav president was smart enough to bring many western culture brands and influences without diluting that sense of accomplishment, peacefulness and enthusiasm in people. It was also a much richer country due to both east and west giving it massive loans. Also, similar to NK, political dissidence was not allowed, but I believe it was nowhere near as harshly enforced, and it practically never affected regular folk. It was actually an incredibly safe country to live in - as long as you weren't making waves against the ruling regime.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

You're comparing a shitty prison to a concentration camp?

Are you serious?

North Korean prisons are not defacto concentration camps.

Not only that, but you can't be so naive as to actually believe that the money going to government is going to be used for anything other than subjugating and disenfranchising the people of North Korea.

It is a model that has worked in Cuba.

Expansion of tourism requires the expansion of the tourist industry which requires the beautification of expanded locations and the employment of people to work there.

You'd be hard pressed to get me to believe that even Guantanamo Bay is as bad as a camp where they beat children to death in front of their families for stealing kernels of corn.

No, at Guantanamo they just torture you for being Muslim.

Guantanamo is just the one we know about. We have no idea about what goes on at the ones in Afghanistan, Diego Garcia, or Eastern Europe.

 

[Supermanisdead]

Yes, it was hyperbolic, but my point was that there is nothing even remotely as horrendous as North Korean concentration camps going on in other countries. This type of behaviour should not, under any circumstance, be rewarded by paying thousands to go on tour. The tourism money gets funneled directly into the corrupt Pyongyang elite and the Kim family's pockets. There is no benefit to anyone except the current regime when you pay to go on an extremely disingenuous guided tour of North Korea.

There's no "two sides" of this argument. There's tons of evidence from both North Korean defectors and South Korean and Chinese aid workers who try to help smuggle products into the country. It's inhumane the way the people of NK are treated by their government and it doesn't compare to any other place on Earth, even Guantanamo Bay.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

This type of behaviour should not, under any circumstance, be rewarded by paying thousands to go on tour. The tourism money gets funneled directly into the corrupt Pyongyang elite and the Kim family's pockets. There is no benefit to anyone except the current regime when you pay to go on an extremely disingenuous guided tour of North Korea.

It has worked fine for Cuba and Vietnam.

There's no "two sides" of this argument.

Of course there is. There is the hyperbolic and emotion "argument" that thinks detente doesn't work and we shouldn't assist North Korea financially or otherwise to "punish them" and then there's the arguments that have proven successful over and over that detente does work.

 

[Supermanisdead]

It's not "punishing" the country when you don't go on tour. They likely don't earn enough to enact any kind of nationwide change, and even if they did, it would be a fraction of the profits. By going on tour, you are personally paying towards the nastiest aspects of the government.

That's not to say that all-out economic sanction and seclusion are the right idea. On a humanitarian and diplomatic level, the rest of the world can't be punishing NK for the leadership's actions.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

While it might be interesting to visit NK, I, as an American, would be to afraid to be detained over some cooked up reason and sent to a hard labor camp.

 

[kingkitty]

I don't think we're gonna have more peaceful, cooperative relations with North Korea until they at least agree to dismantle their nuclear weapons program. Would be swell if they also allow observers into their country, stop their concentration camps, etc.

It's give and take. And I don't see them getting rid of their program anytime soon. Heck, I'm sure North Korea would probably demand that America took all her troops out of the peninsula. And I don't see that happening either.

We shouldn't completely cripple them in aid. While North Korea is a shitty hermit nation run by a retarded fat fuck, it's best we don't punish all the brainwashed people for their government's sins.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I don't think we're gonna have more peaceful, cooperative relations with North Korea until they at least agree to dismantle their nuclear weapons program. Would be swell if they also allow observers into their country, stop their concentration camps, etc.

It's give and take. And I don't see them getting rid of their program anytime soon. Heck, I'm sure North Korea would probably demand that America took all her troops out of the peninsula. And I don't see that happening either.

We shouldn't completely cripple them in aid. While North Korea is a shitty hermit nation run by a retarded fat fuck, it's best we don't punish all the brainwashed people for their government's sins.

NK did give up their nuclear program at one point only for the US to renege on the agreements made.