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North Korea (DPRK) tourism |OT| - surreal, beautiful, friendly

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Chittagong

Gold Member

Webbie

Banned
I have thought i seen it all on GAF but this thread takes the cake. Comparing American prisons to North Korea slave/death camps? WHAT?!
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
I have thought i seen it all on GAF but this thread takes the cake. Comparing American prisons to North Korea slave/death camps? WHAT?!

Quoting myself as I realise the thread is pretty long. Maybe I'll update the OP to include this.

Given the discussion, I think I should clarify a bit my intention with the comment.

The point is, each government has things which are not accessible to foreigners. You can't infer the quality of the human rights violation (i.e. how horrible it is) or the quantity of it (how much of it happens) just based on the fact that there is restriction of access.

Some restriction of access to military and judiciary sites is probably morally benign (German jails, Finnish army compounds). Some of the limited sites are morally questionable (Guantanamo bay, Russian military training of rookies). Some of the limited sites are morally outright wrong (Saudi Arabian amputation punishments, Singaporean caning, Sudan death sentence for marrying a Christian).

Debating of which of the restricted sites is worse is like debating whose shit smells worse.
 

norinrad

Member
NK is one of those places i want to visit and would go if i wasn't suspicious of the Dutch government placing me on their radar when i visit.

I probably will some time in the near future. I still regret not visiting East Germany.
 
OP you found a coke in the DPRK? It must have been smuggled in because afaik DPRK is one of two country's in the world that coke does not distribute to. Cuba being the other.

Also, great OP. The North Koreans have mastered the art of putting on a magnificent facade for tourists. As intriguing as the country is, I'll probably never visit because I don't trust my mouth from slipping up and saying something offensive. And being an American there would be an extra limited tolerance for a slip up. I'm perfectly content living vicariously through other peoples experiences through VICE, yourself, and others.
 
that doesn't seem to be entirely true.

there are a few hints at free movement within the country and outside. I think you can't exactly call first hand experiences of a guy who entered the country boarder-line illegal a "guided tour".

there is a part about train travel in north Korea and another part about north Koreans in Russia, travelling home from work - and smuggling stuff. There are also interesting titbits about hints of an market economy (food and beverages sold at some stations, etc).
you should give it a read, there is nothing quite like it.

Thanks for the links. Definitely interesting stuff. I wonder if the train is still in service today.
 

Liha

Banned
NK is one of those places i want to visit and would go if i wasn't suspicious of the Dutch government placing me on their radar when i visit.

I probably will some time in the near future. I still regret not visiting East Germany.

Is it forbidden to visit North Korea or are there any restrictions?
The president of Austria (social democrat) was for a long time the vice-president of the Austrian-North Korean Friendship Association.
I am a member of the Social Democratic Party and know that some party officials regularly travel to North Korea.
 

norinrad

Member
Is it forbidden to visit North Korea?

The president of Austria (social democrat) was for a long time the vice-president of the Austrian-North Korean Friendship Association.

It is absolutely not forbidden. But hey visiting NK is just like visiting Syria. You suddenly appear on their radar.
 

F!ReW!Re

Member
Nice thread OP, dig the impressions....
I'm planning to go to NK this October after I finish the Transmongolian express from Moscow to Beijing.
Any chance you could PM me the travel agency you went with? Since I've looked into most of the travel organisations offering these NK packages but I'm not sure sure which company to pick yet.
 

bunbun777

Member
It doesn't seem like you can find positive experiences or nice people though as you are not allowed any deviation from the planned course of travel. And if that is true than none of the positivity is real in the sense that it is controlled and sanctioned by a force that would penalize anyone that would deviate from it. Or, as a traveler you are just exposed to the small percentage of folks that maybe are happy because they aren't in concentration camps or have food for the day. How do you express unhappiness or discontent when your family suffers as a result? It just seems sad and phony to me but I have not been there.
 

Zornica

Banned
Thanks for the links. Definitely interesting stuff. I wonder if the train is still in service today.

it probably is. But after their little stunt, they shut down that boarder for tourists and removed it as an entry point from their visa (like it was supposed to be from the start anyway).

or maybe OP could check his visa if the entry part still looks like this:
20080925049.jpg

(the 3rd one is Tumangan)
 
I personally think there cannot be a good reason to go to North Korea and sponsoring one of the most fucked up regimes on the planet.

I find it amazingly naïve and arrogant that you think you are such a great guy for providing these poor poor people with your currency while your visa-money could pay months of camp-guard-salary. Obviously this is an extreme remark but isn't the possibility enough to not go? To not create any money-flow to this gouvernment?


OP, can you tell me with a straight face that there were any reasons to go there other than for self interest? Because you were curious? Because watching a country living is the past is awesome? Is that worth ignoring the dark things or do you really think you are doing a good thing because you bought some beer from poor people?


I would love to go to NK. It seems so interesting an unique. I could if I wanted. I will however not ignore the attrocities because I am interested. It seems like buying new clothes, knowing they were made in a dark moldy factory by a 6 year old.


OP seems to say, "the factory is not so bad and without me they would have nothing!".
 

ramyeon

Member
I personally find the OP, to be honest, offensive. I suppose it's easy to separate your experience from the suffering and cruelty that's going on beneath the public exterior of North Korea since you haven't experienced any of that first hand.

Being in a Korean Studies major I can't even count the number of books, documentaries and research papers I've had to read about North Korea, so I agree that it is fascinating, but it's also one of the worst human rights violations in the world, and not a country that people should be supporting through tourism. The idea of tourism to a place like that in and of itself is kind of sick to begin with.

After having been in South Korea and spoken with defectors from North Korea, hearing their stories is heartbreaking. The things some of them have been through, many of them at a really young age, and the desperate things they have to do in order to escape that country are really unforgettable. They risk their lives and even the lives of their families in order to get out of a country that can't even provide them basic human rights and then there are ignorant foreigners who go over there on a plane from China and back just to take a look at the weird Hermit Kingdom, it just seems so wrong.

The OP is pretty much exactly the kind of thing the regime would want you to write after your trip there, it's like you bought into the facade they put on.
I'd love to visit North Korea but like what others have said I wouldn't be entirely comfortable doing it. I'd probably consider it more seriously once the regime has ended
North Korea is not going to reach any state of normalcy in our lifetimes. Whether or not the regime crumbles. If that happens it will present all whole load of other problems in the region.
 
I went to North Korea in 2010 and some of my impressions and conclusions were pretty different to OP.

Pyongyang is incredibly clean and it's true that they have people constantly trimming and keeping it generally nice. But it wasn't mentioned that the people cutting the grass are generally forced labourers. You'll see rows of impoverished, hungry people crawling along grass verges cutting all the grass with scissors. I doubt they're fresh from B&Q, either.

I wouldn't called the country "serene". That serenity is an ominous, nerved and pervasive silence that is the symptom of a collective national psychological condition, the result of a successful totalitarian regime. It is fear, shadows. I didn't see anyone happily making their way to work - I saw people just standing in the middle of the fields doing nothing because there were no crops.

The lack of advertising is particular bugbear. That's a country whose imagination has atrophied. Neurons don't fire in North Korea.

When I went to NK I was pretty liberal, specifically economically. But this country, the state it was in, I've been a proud capitalist ever since. I still believe in the NHS and social safety nets, but everywhere we can use capitalism to inject true competition, we should.


As a PS I've seen a lot of moral hand-wringing about OP going to Korea. A lot more than when I went - everyone here was interested and only a couple people questioned my choice. Just an interesting change in worldview over the past 4 years, probably more right than wrong. However, when a group of North Korean kids were waving and smiling at me, and I got the chance to smile and wave back, I knew I'd made the right choice. Because the majority of times they see westerners it's as graphic propaganda depicting us as wolven monsters who rape and mutilate Korean women.

If we ever liberate this country, as is our moral imperative, I'd be happier knowing that even a fraction of those people knew us as humans who can smile and wave, rather than monsters salivating over sawing a woman's boob off (actual poster).
 

fuzzyset

Member
I personally find the OP, to be honest, offensive. I suppose it's easy to separate your experience from the suffering and cruelty that's going on beneath the public exterior of North Korea since you haven't experienced any of that first hand.

Yeah. I don't scoff at much that I read on GAF but that OP was way too positive/brainwashy. I know the US with Gitmo/etc isn't the beacon of human rights, but to even put them on the same playing field is just ridiculous. OP should have stopped his adjectives at surreal.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
or maybe OP could check his visa if the entry part still looks like this:
20080925049.jpg

(the 3rd one is Tumangan)

You won't get a visa to keep anymore. You get an extra slip for entry, and they take your passport and the slip and keep them until you leave.

OP, can you tell me with a straight face that there were any reasons to go there other than for self interest? Because you were curious? Because watching a country living is the past is awesome? Is that worth ignoring the dark things or do you really think you are doing a good thing because you bought some beer from poor people?

Of course I can't. I was there as a tourist, so my primary interest is to educate myself and learn something of humanity, so it's a selfish reason. I have lived in Bangladesh, been in the slums of Cape Verde, favelas of Mexico, ran down villages of Tanzania, the ruins of the fallen Soviet empire - they aren't places you go to indulge or try to save people, but places where you can gain perspective to how societies operate under difficult circumstances.

That isn't to say that you wouldn't consider the ethical dilemma before going to any of these areas. Many people here think the people of DPRK is worse off because of tourists, I think any external influence is useful - different opinions.

I went to North Korea in 2010 and some of my impressions and conclusions were pretty different to OP.

Pyongyang is incredibly clean and it's true that they have people constantly trimming and keeping it generally nice. But it wasn't mentioned that the people cutting the grass are generally forced labourers. You'll see rows of impoverished, hungry people crawling along grass verges cutting all the grass with scissors. I doubt they're fresh from B&Q, either.

I wouldn't called the country "serene". That serenity is an ominous, nerved and pervasive silence that is the symptom of a collective national psychological condition, the result of a successful totalitarian regime. It is fear, shadows. I didn't see anyone happily making their way to work - I saw people just standing in the middle of the fields doing nothing because there were no crops.

As a PS I've seen a lot of moral hand-wringing about OP going to Korea. A lot more than when I went - everyone here was interested and only a couple people questioned my choice. Just an interesting change in worldview over the past 4 years, probably more right than wrong. However, when a group of North Korean kids were waving and smiling at me, and I got the chance to smile and wave back, I knew I'd made the right choice. Because the majority of times they see westerners it's as graphic propaganda depicting us as wolven monsters who rape and mutilate Korean women.

If we ever liberate this country, as is our moral imperative, I'd be happier knowing that even a fraction of those people knew us as humans who can smile and wave, rather than monsters salivating over sawing a woman's boob off (actual poster).

I agree with your assessment, your conclusions are very similar to the ones I came when reflecting everything that I encountered on my trip. However, I could not honestly stay that would have been the first impression for me, I'm not that clever, that's where I got after thinking of how everything worked. Why was everything so clean? Who were the people working? Why were people running to do their chores? Those are the questions I will ponder for days and weeks to come, and the answers to which will forever haunt me.

With regards to the people doing the grass and doing the farm work, pretty much everyone below a certain level is expected to do it. They will get assignments, told where to go to do farm work. Even our English speaking guide. I don't mean that that would be any better than all of them being prisoners from labour camps - it is still essentially forced labour all the same. They have been thought all their life that it's an important and expected thing to do, by the speakers blasting the messages.

With regards to the PS, I don't think people's stance has changed one bit in the last few years, North Korea and going there is generally viewed as really bad. I think the reaction here is more due to the tone I chose to do the OP with.

North Korea is not going to reach any state of normalcy in our lifetimes. Whether or not the regime crumbles. If that happens it will present all whole load of other problems in the region.

You have obviously much more experience on the subject than I do, but my sense is that if there is a change the country could change rapidly. I mean, look at how far China or Cambodia has come in the last 20 years. Sure, their starting place wasn't nearly as grim, but this is a country of ostensibly intelligent and hardworking people, so given the opportunity and resource, I absolutely believe they could make rapid progress.
 
It's a bad place but advertising should never be promoted as stimulating for the imagination.

It's colour, it's shape, it's sound. You might think you're above it but considering your brain by nature changes according to every single input, you are changed by it. Sure, there could be art where there are billboards, but in countries without advertising they don't have massive art displays instead. They have nothing.
 

SKINNER!

Banned
I came across a good deal to visit NK sometime last year and as tempting as it was to check out what it was like I couldn't bring myself to spending money in a country that deprives its people. Thanks for sharing your experience and photographs.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
It's colour, it's shape, it's sound. You might think you're above it but considering your brain by nature changes according to every single input, you are changed by it. Sure, there could be art where there are billboards, but in countries without advertising they don't have massive art displays instead. They have nothing.

This is not entirely true in DPRK based on my experience. They do seem to have the places where you would have advertising, but replace it with state created messangery.

On the bus stops, the light boxes tend to have photographs of the city or important buildings instead of advertisements. Nice photos but not sure how much extra stimulus they are given that you are already in the city.

The tube stations had big mosaics in place of billboards. The themes related to army, national unity, working on agriculture together.

Around the towns you'd have billboards with messages from left to right - scientific progress, workers uniting and the army-first policy.

Some pics I took below.

vuje1EY.png
 

jimi_dini

Member
Nice strawman you've got there. Who, exactly, are you arguing with?

What makes you think that I was arguing?
I was actually agreeing with the poster, that I quoted.

Western governments aren't the "good guys" but to claim that their evils even begin to compare to North Korea's is ludicrous.

It's a different type of evil. If for example Obama would just kill American children + civilians with drones, I actually would see that as an improvement. Still evil and really bad, but at least not killing foreigners left and right and actually creating terrorists because of that. And if NSA would spy on US and noone else, I would also see that as an improvement.

Anyway I will just quote the poster, that I agreed with, again.

there are no good guys, just different shades of grey. Our information about "evil regimes" should be viewed just as critically.

Nice Nike-shoes and nice iPhone you got there. Ever thought who actually built them? Are those people paid well? If not, why not? Are you paid better than those people? Could you and would you do those jobs for the exact same payment and living situation? If not, why not?

Our system is fucked as well. Just fucked up in a different way. You will notice that as soon as you open your eyes.

That's the advantage of our system. Plenty of really bad things are half a world away and just not obvious, otherwise we would feel really bad I guess. It's sort of like having invisible slaves. But wait, those slaves shouldn't feel bad. It could be much worse, right?
 

Liha

Banned
North Korea is not going to reach any state of normalcy in our lifetimes. Whether or not the regime crumbles. If that happens it will present all whole load of other problems in the region.

The work-up could take decades. Who was guilty? Who was responsible? The leader, the generals, the soldiers? The majority was just a part of the system.
What would happen to the camp guards? They have only run commands and had no "real" choice. You are a part of the system or dead. What would you do in this situation? This topic is very very difficult.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
The work-up could take decades. Who was guilty? Who was responsible? The leader, the generals, the soldiers? The majority was just a part of the system.
What would happen to the camp guards? They have only run commands and had no "real" choice. What would you do in this situation? This topic is very very difficult.

There are precedents for this type of thing. Most people will walk, like many of the people involved in the horrors of Cambodia. Some high ranks will be brought to trial for show, like in the case of the Nazis. By and large, most people will live their lives gradually coming to grips with the horrors they have been involved in, most of them never being able to reconcile them as bad things they are responsible for.

This documentary is pretty interesting:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/movies/30enemies.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
 
Interesting.

I wouldn't be morally opposed to seeing a place like NK. There are some places that, even though they aren't necessarily pleasant to visit, leave a lasting impression on you and are a good thing to see. So I'd like to see North Korea at some point and I'd like to visit Pripyat too.

But I would be nervous about it. I saw a documentary about visiting NK and the guides were saying to visitors you're not supposed to take photos of statues or posters where the leader is only half in frame or obscured for example. Plus, knowing there was a rigid limit to what I could ask a guide would make me feel less inclined to ask questions.

On top of that, I'd probably struggle to get a group interested in doing it.

Good OP, it's nice to see someone write about North korea from a fairly neutral perspective for once although I did imagine you were typing with a gun to your head.
 

Zornica

Banned
You won't get a visa to keep anymore. You get an extra slip for entry, and they take your passport and the slip and keep them until you leave.

mh... interesting

[...]
When I went to NK I was pretty liberal, specifically economically. But this country, the state it was in, I've been a proud capitalist ever since. I still believe in the NHS and social safety nets, but everywhere we can use capitalism to inject true competition, we should.
[...]

probably a bad example because "the state NK is in" is also partly our own fault due to our mishandling of the matter. If you want to use NK as an economical example, the more fitting one would be "how sanctions are useless, not a solution and never hit those they are intended for".

Isolation and sanctions only hit the citizens, not the elite. And they also don't spur an uprising against those in charge - (which I guess is what they are aiming for), especially not in a country where the message is strictly controlled. If anything, it only helps their own agenda to keep their citizens in check. The only message this sends is "we, the west, hate you". That doesn't lead to an uprising or change, it leads to nationalism - which is, oddly enough, exactly what the Kims want, they should probably be thankful.

anyway, I don't want to sound like an NK apologist, I just hate absolute truths and dogmatic believes. As I said many times, shades... we are also a part of this.
 

GRW810

Member
I'm absolutely fascinated by North Korea, and I appreciate and respect the very high quality of the OT, especially the layout and depth.

But the underlying tones, especially the 'there's bad things about all countries' argument, are incredibly uncomfortable to follow. Neutrality would be understandable, but the positive impressions that stray from such a middle ground are in no way balanced by any of condemnation. The OP comes across as apologetic to anything that hints at the tyranny of the nation.

Has anyone in here read Nothing to Envy? I'm far more inclined to judge a country from the first-hand experiences of escapees (note, people have escape the country) than a guide-led tourist who seems strangely eager to be euphemistic about a terrible place that relies on the sheer terror and helplessness of its citizens.
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Chittagong, this has been one of the best thread I've ever read on GAF. Absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for the incredible read!!
 

Webbie

Banned
Quoting myself as I realise the thread is pretty long. Maybe I'll update the OP to include this.

Oh really, so you seriously think that we shoot and or starve people to death on a daily basis at our prisons? If so then you obviously have been brain washed or something.
 

Dragon

Banned

False equivalence seems to be a theme to this thread. We're not talking about America and the constant bringing America up only serves to distract the conversation into something else.

Oh really, so you seriously think that we shoot and or starve people to death on a daily basis at our prisons? If so then you obviously have been brain washed or something.

False equivalence. The OP won't respond directly because he has less legs to stand on than a stool with no legs.
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Started to read the posts in this thread... Wtf @ page 2. Why so much hate?!
 

XenoRaven

Member
Thanks for posting, OP.

What's most interesting to me is getting a small window into how a communist society operates. Specifically the lack of branding and advertising. I'm not exactly in a hurry to move to a communist country, but I could certainly do with fewer billboards and flashy lights competing for my attention.

I find the hostility in here to be completely unnecessary, and I respect your ability to keep a level head while people insult you.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
False equivalence. The OP won't respond directly because he has less legs to stand on than a stool with no legs.

I don't think I still managed to explain it. What I mean is that each country has areas where tourists can't go. You can't draw a conclusion of something bad going on just based on the fact that you are not let somewhere. You *can* however do so based on eyewitness accounts, UN reports and such, as people have done in the thread.

To be very clear, I did NOT compare Guantanamo to DPRK prison camps in how bad the human rights violations are, or how often they happen. I did compare them in that both are out of bounds for tourists. Maybe I should have said Pentagon since mentioning Guantanamo seems to aggravate some Americans.

Anyway, the entire point is pretty meaningless. It was mainly meant to say that tourists don't get to see stuff.

We have favelas now??? Didn't know that.

that district in Monterrey where police don't go. Can't remember the correct term in Mexican Spanish sorry.
 

GCX

Member
Has anyone in here read Nothing to Envy? I'm far more inclined to judge a country from the first-hand experiences of escapees (note, people have escape the country) than a guide-led tourist who seems strangely eager to be euphemistic about a terrible place that relies on the sheer terror and helplessness of its citizens.
One of the most heartbreaking books out there though it's also a really great insight to what the life in NK is really like.
 

Dragon

Banned
I don't think I still managed to explain it. What I mean is that each country has areas where tourists can't go. You can't draw a conclusion of something bad going on just based on the fact that you are not let somewhere. You *can* however do so based on eyewitness accounts, UN reports and such, as people have done in the thread.

To be very clear, I did NOT compare Guantanamo to DPRK prison camps in how bad the human rights violations are, or how often they happen. I did compare them in that both are out of bounds for tourists. Maybe I should have said Pentagon since mentioning Guantanamo seems to aggravate some Americans.

You compared them very lazily in the OP and knew what you were doing.

People know what's going on in North Korea, it's like stating that unicorns don't exist, there's no need to state such absurdity as if there's any doubt to what why you can only have sponsored tours. It's really insincere and goes back to my point about mentioning Guantanamo as if it's relevant.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
Has anyone in here read Nothing to Envy? I'm far more inclined to judge a country from the first-hand experiences of escapees (note, people have escape the country) than a guide-led tourist who seems strangely eager to be euphemistic about a terrible place that relies on the sheer terror and helplessness of its citizens.

As you should.

The idea of this thread was to share the experience one gets on a tourist trip, rather than to provide the truth of North Korea. A tourist won't uncover that. It sparked also an interesting ethical discussion about whether it's right to travel there at all. So what you read in the OP are impressions a guide-led tourist gets from the county - that can be then contrasted to things we know about the country.

You compared them very lazily in the OP and knew what you were doing.

People know what's going on in North Korea, it's like stating that unicorns don't exist, there's no need to state such absurdity as if there's any doubt to what why you can only have sponsored tours. It's really insincere and goes back to my point about mentioning Guantanamo as if it's relevant.

I get what you are saying and in retrospect seeing how much discussion that point generated it wasn't helpful. It's the first question people have had about travel to North Korea, that tourists don't get to see the bad stuff. As you say, it should be obvious.
 
I would say a mix of both. It's interesting to see how the regime wants to portray their country. The thing I believe many people in this thread don't understand is that what we see is the *same way* they portray their country to their citizens. Since all communication is completely state controlled, and no external influence is possible, that's the world 25 million people believe exist.

Based on all they know the locals are immensely proud of their country. They see it's a country at forefront of technological progress, a country having an unique system of society ('Juche') the world wants to destroy and they have to defend, they believe they have a leader who every day does something good like opens an orphanage or visits a mushroom factory.

One morning on the country side we woke up at 5AM to speakers blasting the call for workers to unite and march songs, and it went on with messages of building a great nation until noon at least. We heard it's a normal thing for working areas. I would imagine if I would have woken up to that every morning for 34 years and read news only about the endless success of the country, I would see the world quite differently, and swiftly rationalise the bad stuff I'd inevitably see - staying upbeat and happy in midst of it all.

Enough repetition and consistency will make people believe all kinds of things - whether it's that you are reincarnated into a different animal based on what you do in life, or that adulterers should be stoned to death, or that being gay is wrong, or that steroids are required for you to look good. Different belief systems can be installed by the means of media, and learning to make sense of the media you are surrounded by is a crucial, but very difficult skill.



With a lot of delight, to our surprise. Kids would run after the bus waiving on the rural areas, adults in the cities would waive, soldiers would show the peace sign. A soldier in the tube tried to secretly snap pictures of my wife with his cellphone, problem is that the tube is pretty dark and he had an older phone so he had to do probably ten retakes which kind of gave it away. Everybody would turn to look at you. I guess it's pretty understandable, since only 2000 westerners currently visit the country each year, the chances for them to see a 6 feet 3 tall blonde person with a big nose is like seeing an unicorn. But the reaction was certainly a positive curiosity.

I used to live as a kid in Bangladesh in early 1980s, it was similar with white foreigners then there, but people there were less subtle about it.

thanks for responding! very cool. when i was in Japan on vacation i really enjoyed the reaction i got sometimes eating out, a lot of the younger Japanese girls (like high school/ college age) would ask to take pictures with me. it was fun lol.

as a psychology major and as an psych intern, i'd be really interested to see what type of reaction the NK people would have exposing them to a film like Transformers or Lord of the Rings. i read awhile back about African immigrants from remote villages having a difficult time understanding reality because of Hollywood movies making everything appear "real". many of them had just traveled on a plan for the first time so the idea of a Transformer being real seemed equally plausible in their mind, so adjusting to what was and wasn't possible took some time. i'd be interesting to see what they also thought of Jazz or Classical music, what sort of response they'd have. to be able to study that sort of psychology in the environment would be great.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
as a psychology major and as an psych intern, i'd be really interested to see what type of reaction the NK people would have exposing them to a film like Transformers or Lord of the Rings. i read awhile back about African immigrants from remote villages having a difficult time understanding reality because of Hollywood movies making everything appear "real". many of them had just traveled on a plan for the first time so the idea of a Transformer being real seemed equally plausible in their mind, so adjusting to what was and wasn't possible took some time. i'd be interesting to see what they also thought of Jazz or Classical music, what sort of response they'd have. to be able to study that sort of psychology in the environment would be great.

We tried to ask the question, since people studying English in the university to become guides are the only ones who get to blast through a big catalog of American films as a part of their training - like, how does it look to them. They didn't really get our question, or didn't want to get it. We tried to ask the same about how it was to live months in Sweden. Probably not a discussion they should engage in.

They do have a pretty big domestic movie industry. I think they got in some South Korean film professionals to kick it off back in the day. Not sure how that story ended. But stuff like DPRK style kung fu, cartoons and such. They also show old European films, saw quite a few Nazi themed films airing.
 
We tried to ask the question, since people studying English in the university to become guides are the only ones who get to blast through a big catalog of American films as a part of their training - like, how does it look to them. They didn't really get our question, or didn't want to get it. We tried to ask the same about how it was to live months in Sweden. Probably not a discussion they should engage in.

They do have a pretty big domestic movie industry. I think they got in some South Korean film professionals to kick it off back in the day. Not sure how that story ended. But stuff like DPRK style kung fu, cartoons and such. They also show old European films, saw quite a few Nazi themed films airing.

ah that's a shame. i dont know if i would've been able to help myself from asking questions regarding their entertainment lol. i can't imagine the people who are allowed to listen to outside music or watch outside films aren't affected in some way. even if you don't understand the entire context, the music and films would've been very bizarre, enough so to elicit a positive or negative reaction. im also curious about that studying abroad part, so NK sends these guides out of the country to Sweden and then they return? so these people go from NK to Sweden and return unphased, that's opretty fascinating they return at all. although the well being of their family is probably a big factor but still that's odd. while in Sweden if they're unsupervised they would've had tp been exposed to Google or some media or people who would've engaged in a negative conversation about NK. that's even more interesting now lol. im going to go look that up and see if there are any stories about these people and their experience of other countries.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
Bring a flashlight.

Seriously. I woke up to take a piss the first night, as usual we sleep with no lights on because usually the glow from the city will be enough to get you from bed to bathroom. It was entirely, completely pitch black when I opened my eyes. Very weird. I struggled to find my way to the window, peeked out, saw maybe three lit windows in the entire city scape at 3AM.

You mean Shin Sang-Ok and his actress wife Choi Eun Hee, who were both kidnapped in Hong Kong by the DPRK and had to escape and seek asylum while at the Vienna Film Festival?

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2003/apr/04/artsfeatures1

That's the one.
 

GRW810

Member
They do have a pretty big domestic movie industry. I think they got in some South Korean film professionals to kick it off back in the day. Not sure how that story ended. But stuff like DPRK style kung fu, cartoons and such. They also show old European films, saw quite a few Nazi themed films airing.
By 'get them in' you mean kidnap a guy and force him to make films for the North?

That story ended with him fleeing the first moment he got the chance.

Edit: beaten like a.... no, too wrong.
 
I dunno I personally find the OP's overview of his trip refreshing. He focused on what he was seeing at the surface. Sure he clearly knows whats going on, but everyone does. Deciding to remove yourself from that view for however many days he was there is a pretty cool way to go about it imo. Lot of the posts here make it sound like he should have used his super powers to end the strife going on there while taking in the sights.

Either way its interesting.

In actuality I personally don't find what the OP did very different than what the rest of us do when we go to other countries/places. Even if we know about the underlying problems we forget about it and enjoy whats in front of us. Heck I went to Cancun some years ago and the few thousand tourists there a day are all doing the exact same thing. When you are lying back in a pool next to like 5 topless european chicks drinking a corona and lime, you are not thinking of all the cartel suffering going on in this damn country now are you... Maybe its cause one of the people I was with pointed it out, but when we were walking around that first night looking at the shops/resturants/clubs you could see cops at both ends of the streets and rampant drug dealing in between them. Or when you go about a mile away from the strip of hotels and clubs the super poor run down town that Cancun really is (Once again something I did but most dont). Once again... not something you worry about when you go somewhere to take in the sights and just "being there." Something the OP can say he did.

Can pick any country in the world and find horrible stuff that would make it "morally wrong" to have a frankly nice vacation there in the first place and while I admit NK is a bit extreme... intrinsically its not that different.
 
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