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NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls

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bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Yahoo News said:
The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans - most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.

For the customers of these companies, it means that the government has detailed records of calls they made - across town or across the country - to family members, co-workers, business contacts and others.

The three telecommunications companies are working under contract with the NSA, which launched the program in 2001 shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the sources said. The program is aimed at identifying and tracking suspected terrorists, they said.

The sources would talk only under a guarantee of anonymity because the NSA program is secret.

Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, nominated Monday by President Bush to become the director of the CIA, headed the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005. In that post, Hayden would have overseen the agency's domestic call-tracking program. Hayden declined to comment about the program.

The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop - without warrants - on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.

In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."

As a result, domestic call records - those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders - were believed to be private.

Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information.


Don Weber, a senior spokesman for the NSA, declined to discuss the agency's operations. "Given the nature of the work we do, it would be irresponsible to comment on actual or alleged operational issues; therefore, we have no information to provide," he said. "However, it is important to note that NSA takes its legal responsibilities seriously and operates within the law."

The White House would not discuss the domestic call-tracking program. "There is no domestic surveillance without court approval," said Dana Perino, deputy press secretary, referring to actual eavesdropping.

She added that all national intelligence activities undertaken by the federal government "are lawful, necessary and required for the pursuit of al-Qaeda and affiliated terrorists." All government-sponsored intelligence activities "are carefully reviewed and monitored," Perino said. She also noted that "all appropriate members of Congress have been briefed on the intelligence efforts of the United States."

The government is collecting "external" data on domestic phone calls but is not intercepting "internals," a term for the actual content of the communication, according to a U.S. intelligence official familiar with the program. This kind of data collection from phone companies is not uncommon; it's been done before, though never on this large a scale, the official said. The data are used for "social network analysis," the official said, meaning to study how terrorist networks contact each other and how they are tied together.

Carriers uniquely positioned

AT&T recently merged with SBC and kept the AT&T name. Verizon, BellSouth and AT&T are the nation's three biggest telecommunications companies; they provide local and wireless phone service to more than 200 million customers.

The three carriers control vast networks with the latest communications technologies. They provide an array of services: local and long-distance calling, wireless and high-speed broadband, including video. Their direct access to millions of homes and businesses has them uniquely positioned to help the government keep tabs on the calling habits of Americans.

Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to help the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest declined to participate because it was uneasy about the legal implications of handing over customer information to the government without warrants.

Qwest's refusal to participate has left the NSA with a hole in its database. Based in Denver, Qwest provides local phone service to 14 million customers in 14 states in the West and Northwest. But AT&T and Verizon also provide some services - primarily long-distance and wireless - to people who live in Qwest's region. Therefore, they can provide the NSA with at least some access in that area.

Created by President Truman in 1952, during the Korean War, the NSA is charged with protecting the United States from foreign security threats. The agency was considered so secret that for years the government refused to even confirm its existence. Government insiders used to joke that NSA stood for "No Such Agency."

In 1975, a congressional investigation revealed that the NSA had been intercepting, without warrants, international communications for more than 20 years at the behest of the CIA and other agencies. The spy campaign, code-named "Shamrock," led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which was designed to protect Americans from illegal eavesdropping.

Enacted in 1978, FISA lays out procedures that the U.S. government must follow to conduct electronic surveillance and physical searches of people believed to be engaged in espionage or international terrorism against the United States. A special court, which has 11 members, is responsible for adjudicating requests under FISA.

Over the years, NSA code-cracking techniques have continued to improve along with technology. The agency today is considered expert in the practice of "data mining" - sifting through reams of information in search of patterns. Data mining is just one of many tools NSA analysts and mathematicians use to crack codes and track international communications.

Paul Butler, a former U.S. prosecutor who specialized in terrorism crimes, said FISA approval generally isn't necessary for government data-mining operations. "FISA does not prohibit the government from doing data mining," said Butler, now a partner with the law firm Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld in Washington, D.C.

The caveat, he said, is that "personal identifiers" - such as names,
Social Security numbers and street addresses - can't be included as part of the search. "That requires an additional level of probable cause," he said.

The usefulness of the NSA's domestic phone-call database as a counterterrorism tool is unclear. Also unclear is whether the database has been used for other purposes.

The NSA's domestic program raises legal questions. Historically, AT&T and the regional phone companies have required law enforcement agencies to present a court order before they would even consider turning over a customer's calling data. Part of that owed to the personality of the old Bell Telephone System, out of which those companies grew.

Ma Bell's bedrock principle - protection of the customer - guided the company for decades, said Gene Kimmelman, senior public policy director of Consumers Union. "No court order, no customer information - period. That's how it was for decades," he said.

The concern for the customer was also based on law: Under Section 222 of the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, telephone companies are prohibited from giving out information regarding their customers' calling habits: whom a person calls, how often and what routes those calls take to reach their final destination. Inbound calls, as well as wireless calls, also are covered.

The financial penalties for violating Section 222, one of many privacy reinforcements that have been added to the law over the years, can be stiff. The
Federal Communications Commission, the nation's top telecommunications regulatory agency, can levy fines of up to $130,000 per day per violation, with a cap of $1.325 million per violation. The FCC has no hard definition of "violation." In practice, that means a single "violation" could cover one customer or 1 million.

In the case of the NSA's international call-tracking program, Bush signed an executive order allowing the NSA to engage in eavesdropping without a warrant. The president and his representatives have since argued that an executive order was sufficient for the agency to proceed. Some civil liberties groups, including the
American Civil Liberties Union, disagree.

Companies approached

The NSA's domestic program began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, according to the sources. Right around that time, they said, NSA representatives approached the nation's biggest telecommunications companies. The agency made an urgent pitch: National security is at risk, and we need your help to protect the country from attacks.

The agency told the companies that it wanted them to turn over their "call-detail records," a complete listing of the calling histories of their millions of customers. In addition, the NSA wanted the carriers to provide updates, which would enable the agency to keep tabs on the nation's calling habits.

The sources said the NSA made clear that it was willing to pay for the cooperation. AT&T, which at the time was headed by C. Michael Armstrong, agreed to help the NSA. So did BellSouth, headed by F. Duane Ackerman; SBC, headed by Ed Whitacre; and Verizon, headed by Ivan Seidenberg.

With that, the NSA's domestic program began in earnest.

AT&T, when asked about the program, replied with a comment prepared for USA TODAY: "We do not comment on matters of national security, except to say that we only assist law enforcement and government agencies charged with protecting national security in strict accordance with the law."

In another prepared comment, BellSouth said: "BellSouth does not provide any confidential customer information to the NSA or any governmental agency without proper legal authority."

Verizon, the USA's No. 2 telecommunications company behind AT&T, gave this statement: "We do not comment on national security matters, we act in full compliance with the law and we are committed to safeguarding our customers' privacy."

Qwest spokesman Robert Charlton said: "We can't talk about this. It's a classified situation."

In December, The New York Times revealed that Bush had authorized the NSA to wiretap, without warrants, international phone calls and e-mails that travel to or from the USA. The following month, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil liberties group, filed a class-action lawsuit against AT&T. The lawsuit accuses the company of helping the NSA spy on U.S. phone customers.

Last month, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales alluded to that possibility. Appearing at a
House Judiciary Committee hearing, Gonzales was asked whether he thought the White House has the legal authority to monitor domestic traffic without a warrant. Gonzales' reply: "I wouldn't rule it out." His comment marked the first time a Bush appointee publicly asserted that the White House might have that authority.

Similarities in programs

The domestic and international call-tracking programs have things in common, according to the sources. Both are being conducted without warrants and without the approval of the FISA court. The Bush administration has argued that FISA's procedures are too slow in some cases. Officials, including Gonzales, also make the case that the USA Patriot Act gives them broad authority to protect the safety of the nation's citizens.

The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Sen. Pat Roberts (news, bio, voting record), R-Kan., would not confirm the existence of the program. In a statement, he said, "I can say generally, however, that our subcommittee has been fully briefed on all aspects of the Terrorist Surveillance Program. ... I remain convinced that the program authorized by the president is lawful and absolutely necessary to protect this nation from future attacks."

The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., declined to comment.

One company differs

One major telecommunications company declined to participate in the program: Qwest.

According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order - or approval under FISA - to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers' information and how that information might be used.

Financial implications were also a concern, the sources said. Carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. The fines, in the aggregate, could have been substantial.

The NSA told Qwest that other government agencies, including the
FBI, CIA and DEA, also might have access to the database, the sources said. As a matter of practice, the NSA regularly shares its information - known as "product" in intelligence circles - with other intelligence groups. Even so, Qwest's lawyers were troubled by the expansiveness of the NSA request, the sources said.

The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the country, pushed back hard.

Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled.

In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more.

Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events.

In June 2002, Nacchio resigned amid allegations that he had misled investors about Qwest's financial health. But Qwest's legal questions about the NSA request remained.

Unable to reach agreement, Nacchio's successor, Richard Notebaert, finally pulled the plug on the NSA talks in late 2004, the sources said.


But hey, unless I'm a bad guy, what do I have to worry about? It's not like this affects me directly. I can still guzzle a beer, take a trip to the mall, jerk off, all kinds of shit. This is just a planted story designed to make sure the President's approval ratings take an even further dive. Liberal media, when will you stop destroying America?
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Yahoo News said:
WASHINGTON - The government has abruptly ended an inquiry into the warrantless eavesdropping program because the National Security Agency refused to grant Justice Department lawyers the necessary security clearance to probe the matter.

The Justice Department's Office of Professional Responsibility, or OPR, sent a fax to Rep. Maurice Hinchey (news, bio, voting record), D-N.Y., on Wednesday saying they were closing their inquiry because without clearance their lawyers cannot examine Justice lawyers' role in the program.

"We have been unable to make any meaningful progress in our investigation because OPR has been denied security clearances for access to information about the NSA program," OPR counsel H. Marshall Jarrett wrote to Hinchey. Hinchey's office shared the letter with The Associated Press.

Jarrett wrote that beginning in January, his office has made a series of requests for the necessary clearances. Those requests were denied Tuesday.

"Without these clearances, we cannot investigate this matter and therefore have closed our investigation," wrote Jarrett.

Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said the terrorist surveillance program "has been subject to extensive oversight both in the executive branch and in Congress from the time of its inception."

Roehrkasse noted the OPR's mission is not to investigate possible wrongdoing in other agencies, but to determine if Justice Department lawyers violated any ethical rules. He declined to comment when asked if the end of the inquiry meant the agency believed its lawyers had handled the wiretapping matter ethically.

Hinchey is one of many House Democrats who have been highly critical of the domestic eavesdropping program first revealed in December. He said lawmakers would push to find out who at the NSA denied the Justice Department lawyers security clearance.

"This administration thinks they can just violate any law they want, and they've created a culture of fear to try to get away with that. It's up to us to stand up to them," said Hinchey.

In February, the OPR announced it would examine the conduct of its own agency's lawyers in the program, though they were not authorized to investigate NSA activities.

Bush's decision to authorize the largest U.S. spy agency to monitor people inside the United States, without warrants, generated a host of questions about the program's legal justification.

The administration has vehemently defended the eavesdropping, saying the NSA's activities were narrowly targeted to intercept international calls and e-mails of Americans and others inside the U.S. with suspected ties to the al-Qaida terror network.

Separately, the Justice Department sought last month to dismiss a federal lawsuit accusing the telephone company AT&T of colluding with the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping program.

The lawsuit, brought by an Internet privacy group, does not name the government as a defendant, but the Department of Justice has sought to quash the lawsuit, saying it threatens to expose government and military secrets.

But hey, unless I'm a bad guy, what do I have---Ah, fuck this.

WHAT THE FUCK WILL IT TAKE??
 

ToxicAdam

Member
panic_button-lg.jpg




OMG OMG OMG
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
The 2nd article, the one with the headline actually stating "Domestic Spying" has now been changed to this headline:

NSA Stymies Justice Dept. Spying Probe

I wonder why.
 

atomsk

Party Pooper
cribbed from slashdot, to add to your answering machine message

"Be aware that the National Security Agency may be recording this call and anything you say may be used against you. I have no control over this situation as my phone provider is turning over this information on all its customers to the NSA."
 

ToxicAdam

Member
bob_arctor said:
Hey, Toxic Adam, what aren't you willing to let slide?

Bush & The Constitution

What is your driving need to defend corrupt people in power?


I'm not going to wade through all the horseshit of C&L to find out what you are linking to.



Why do you automatically assume I am defending someone, when I say you are completely overreacting?

I'm sorry, I don't live in constant fear of some mythical Big Brother that is has it's fingers in everything and it's thumb on top of everyone else. I'm more concerned about how I am going to get my lawn cut, my flowerbeds mulched and my deck repainted.

There's about 100 private organizations that have illegally collected personal information about me. I'm supposed to care that the government has a database of all my calls I made to Chinese carryout? Who gives a fuck.

With the pervasive use of cameras, data mining and other forms of tracking. Lists of phone numbers are the least of my concerns.

maynerd said:
No and that doesn't make me feel any better.



Welcome to life. Most things are not going to make you feel any better. Get fucking used to it and grow up.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
ToxicAdam said:
I'm not going to wade through all the horseshit of C&L to find out what you are linking to.



Why do you automatically assume I am defending someone, when I say you are completely overreacting?

I'm sorry, I don't live in constant fear of some mythical Big Brother that is has it's fingers in everything and it's thumb on top of everyone else. I'm more concerned about how I am going to get my lawn cut, my flowerbeds mulched and my deck repainted.

There's about 100 private organizations that have illegally collected personal information about me. I'm supposed to care that the government has a database of all my calls I made to Chinese carryout? Who gives a fuck.

With the pervasive use of cameras, data mining and other forms of tracking. Lists of phone numbers are the least of my concerns.





Welcome to life. Most things are not going to make you feel any better. Get fucking used to it and grow up.


Complacency is your answer. I see. There's "too much" of it anyway. Everybody's doing it. What should I care? Nice. Also, way to not check out that link (it's a clip). Why should you care? As Rummy would say "Henny Penny the sky is falling!" right? You fucking sheep.

Toxic Adam said:
I'm sorry, I don't live in constant fear of some mythical Big Brother that is has it's fingers in everything and it's thumb on top of everyone else.

Hey, don't be sorry. It's your nature. Also, I should point out that one doesn't need to be a card carrying conspiracy theorist, as you're implying, to be entirely pissed off and concerned about what the NSA vis a vis the Administration is doing.
 

Lo-Volt

Member
Senator Arlen Specter, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said today that he would call telephone executives to testify about a newspaper report describing a massive effort by the National Security Agency to compile records of phone calls. he article, in USA Today, said that the agency did not listen to the calls, but secretly collected information on numbers dialed by "tens of millions of Americans."

Mr. Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican, expressed his frustration at the Bush administration's refusal to give details of other surveillance efforts, and said he would call executives of AT&T, BellSouth and Verizon "to see if we can learn some of the underlying facts that we can't find out from the Department of Justice or other administration officials."

The article named those three companies as cooperating with the security agency's request; it said that Quest had refused to provide the information. The New York Times reported last December that the agency had gathered data from phone and e-mail traffic with the cooperation of several major telecommunications companies.

But Democrats reacted angrily to the article and its description of the program’s vast size

"Are you telling me that tens of millions of Americans are involved with Al Qaeda?" asked Senator Patrick J. Leahy of Vermont, the committee's ranking minority member.

Like Mr. Specter, Mr. Leahy made a link between the new charge and the administration's refusal to answer the committee's questions about the security agency's warrantless wiretaps of calls between the United States and overseas in which one person is suspected of terrorist ties.

"It's our government, our government!" he said, turning red in the face and waving a copy of USA Today. "It's not one party's government, it's America's government!"

Other Democrats demanded that the administration officials, including Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez and former Attorney General John Ashcroft, be subpoenaed to testify under oath about both programs.

And they made clear that they thought the new surveillance issue would complicate the nomination of Gen. Michael V. Hayden, a former head of the security agency, to be the new director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

"I want to ask General Hayden about these programs before we move forward with his nomination, which I was inclined to be supportive of, if he showed the requisite independence," said Senator Charles Schumer, a New York Democrat.

Republicans urged caution before drawing any conclusions based on the article, and noted that it described the program as collecting information only about phone numbers, not about the contents of conversations.

"It's not a wiretapping program, it's simply a compilation, according to the report here, of numbers that phone companies maintain," said Senator Jeff Sessions of Alabama.

He compared it to "mail covers" and "pen registers," techniques long used by law-enforcement authorities to record the addresses on letters or calls made by individuals under investigation. No warrant is needed for such efforts, but the government must certify with a court that the information likely to be obtained is relevant to an ongoing investigation.

Senator Dianne Feinstein, the California Democrat who is a member of the Intelligence Committee, appeared to confirm at least the gist of the article, while stressing that what was under discussion was not wiretapping. "It's fair to say that what is in the news this morning is not content collection," she said.

Even so, she warned, "I happen to believe that we are on our way to a major Constitutional confrontation on the Fourth Amendment guarantees over unreasonable search and seizure."

The telephone companies today declined to comment on the article, and would say only that they are assisting government agencies in accordance with the law, The Associated Press reported.

"We have been in full compliance with the law and we are committed to our customers' privacy," said Bob Varettoni, a spokesman for Verizon.

In the USA Today article, the White House defended its overall eavesdropping program and said no domestic surveillance is conducted without court approval.

"The intelligence activities undertaken by the United States government are lawful, necessary and required to protect Americans from terrorist attacks," said Dana Perino, the deputy White House press secretary, who added that appropriate members of Congress have been briefed on intelligence activities. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/11/w...&en=9ebc2132b83f0bfd&ei=5094&partner=homepage
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Toxic Adam said:
I'm more concerned about how I am going to get my lawn cut, my flowerbeds mulched and my deck repainted.

bob_arctor said:
It's not like this affects me directly. I can still guzzle a beer, take a trip to the mall, jerk off, all kinds of shit.

:lol
 
You can do the ostrich-head-in-the-sand maneuver like ToxicAdam but why? Quite frankly, I knew from the very beginning, when they said they were tracking international calls, that they were tracking domestic ones too. Lying like a cheap rug is just business as usual in the Bush regime. The thing is that they're too dumb to realize that the truth inevitably gets leaked and makes them look worse for doing so.

People, even many conservatives, don't like to be deceived. Thats why Bush is at a staggering 31% approval rating. My only question is who is the 31% who still thinks Bush and his lapdogs are doing a decent job?
 

ToxicAdam

Member
bob_arctor said:
Complacency is your answer. I see. There's "too much" of it anyway. Everybody's doing it. What should I care? Nice. Also, way to not check out that link (it's a clip). Why should you care? As Rummy would say "Henny Penny the sky is falling!" right? You fucking sheep.



Hey, don't be sorry. It's your nature. Also, I should point out that one doesn't need to be a card carrying conspiracy theorist, as you're implying, to be entirely pissed off and concerned about what the NSA vis a vis the Administration is doing.



That's the NEO-arguement du jour around here. If you are not constantly, irrationally "vigilant" against the "machine". You are some kind of sheep waiting to be slaughtered by "them".

Listen, you are too far gone for me to speak in a rational way. It's the reason why I don't get into the 9/11 thread. There are people with a mindset that they are some sort of truth crusaders waking the world up to the "real enemy" (OMG the calls are coming from inside your house!!!).

So good luck with ALL that.


----


I have never supported GWB. I have stated this about 100 times now. I am a McCain guy.


-----



You know what's even sadder about the Truth Crusade Brigade. Is if your point out inconsistencies in thier arguements. Thier pat answer is always, "bububu Does it make it right? bububu" It's such an immature, teenage type reaction. Oh woe is me, life isn't fair. Society and government is corrupt .. wah wah wah.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
ToxicAdam said:
That's the NEO-arguement du jour around here. If you are not constantly, irrationally "vigilant" against the "machine". You are some kind of sheep waiting to be slaughtered by "them".

Listen, you are too far gone for me to speak in a rational way. It's the reason why I don't get into the 9/11 thread. There are people with a mindset that they are some sort of truth crusaders waking the world up to the "real enemy" (OMG the calls are coming from inside your house!!!).

So good luck with ALL that.

One, I didn't post a single thing in that huge 9/11 thread. Second, you are equating "nutjob" with actually giving a fuck. You are the irrational one here. I'm not wearing a tin foil hat. I'm not bleating about aliens and men in black. It's a very specific thing we are talking about here and you know it.
 
I don't think you need to a hardcore Bush hater to be accepted. However, the fact that you insist this isn't a big deal is a problem. You say you're busy and you list what you need to do. Truth is, we're all busy. We all got shit to do in our lives, every day. However this does impact our lives. Wrapping yourself in the warm, comforting blanket of self inflicted ignorance is what is resulting in this bullshit in the first place.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
bob_arctor said:
One, I didn't post a single thing in that huge 9/11 thread. Second, you are equating "nutjob" with actually giving a fuck. You are the irrational one here. I'm not wearing a tin foil hat. I'm not bleating about aliens and men in black. It's a very specific thing we are talking about here and you know it.


It's the same kind of mindset you share. You have a highly cynical, almost paranoid distrust of things that happen and have happened for decades now.


What exactly does this information mean to you on a personal level that has you worried? More importantly, what exactly would the government do with a phone list that could effect you negatively?

I am genuinely curious on why this make you so concerned.


Like I said before, there are thousands upon thousands of private citizens that have access to more important information about myself than just phone numbers. BFD
 

maynerd

Banned
ToxicAdam said:
It's the same kind of mindset you share. You have a highly cynical, almost paranoid distrust of things that happen and have happened for decades now.


What exactly does this information mean to you on a personal level that has you worried? More importantly, what exactly would the government do with a phone list that could effect you negatively?

I am genuinely curious on why this make you so concerned.

My call records are none of their FREAKIN business that's the problem. Not to metion it goes against the constitution.
 

APF

Member
I'm less upset about the NSA trying to collect these records (see the comments re: pen register, etc.) than I am about most of these companies doing nothing to stand in the way of releasing the information.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
APF said:
I'm less upset about the NSA trying to collect these records (see the comments re: pen register, etc.) than I am about most of these companies doing nothing to stand in the way of releasing the information.

Pfft. Why worry? Don't you have some lawn to mow or trees to mulch or something entirely American to do? Toxic Adam does. And nothing will keep him from doing these things. Nothing.
 

maynerd

Banned
APF said:
I'm less upset about the NSA trying to collect these records (see the comments re: pen register, etc.) than I am about most of these companies doing nothing to stand in the way of releasing the information.

No kidding. These companies are really pissing me off too.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
maynerd said:
No kidding. These companies are really pissing me off too.

Except for one, apparently:

The NSA told Qwest that other government agencies, including the
FBI, CIA and DEA, also might have access to the database, the sources said. As a matter of practice, the NSA regularly shares its information - known as "product" in intelligence circles - with other intelligence groups. Even so, Qwest's lawyers were troubled by the expansiveness of the NSA request, the sources said.

The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the country, pushed back hard.

Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled.

In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more.

Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events.
 

maynerd

Banned
bob_arctor said:
Except for one, apparently:

Big props to Qwest. I used to work there so I'm glad they did the right thing. I also live in a Qwest coverage area so apparently I may not be affected by this. That doesn't make me any less pissed off about it though.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
bob_arctor said:
Pfft. Why worry? Don't you have some lawn to mow or trees to mulch or something entirely American to do? Toxic Adam does. And nothing will keep him from doing these things. Nothing.



You never answered my direct question on how this effects you on a personal level. What malacious, evil things the dreaded Administration de Diablo could inflict on you.


Still waiting ..
 

maynerd

Banned
ToxicAdam said:
You never answered my direct question on how this effects you on a personal level. What malacious, evil things the dreaded Administration de Diablo could inflict on you.


Still waiting ..

If someone that I have no connection to get's murdered in Kansas and doesn't effect me on a personal level does that mean it's not a crime?
 

ToxicAdam

Member
maynerd said:
If someone that I have no connection to get's murdered in Kansas and doesn't effect me on a personal level does that mean it's not a crime?


You know what's even sadder about the Truth Crusade Brigade. Is if your point out inconsistencies in thier arguements. Thier pat answer is always, "bububu Does it make it right? bububu" It's such an immature, teenage type reaction. Oh woe is me, life isn't fair. Society and government is corrupt .. wah wah wah.

...
 

maynerd

Banned
ToxicAdam said:

Whatever TA there's nothing inconsistent about what I am saying. They are breaking the law with their actions. It doesn't need to affect me personally for it to be wrong.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
maynerd said:
Whatever TA there's nothing inconsistent about what I am saying. They are breaking the law with their actions. It doesn't need to affect me personally for it to be wrong.

Who are "they". The NSA or the Bush administration? The NSA has been doing this for over 50 years now. They have just recently leveraged 9/11 into making private companies give them information without working for it.


Are you saying that there needs to be independent 'watcher' for our 'watchers' (NSA)? I am all for that, but good luck getting our elected officials to vote for that.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
NY Times said:
President Bush today denied that the government is "mining or trolling through the personal lives of innocent Americans," as Democrats expressed outrage over a news report describing a National Security Agency program that has collected vast amounts of telephone records.

The article, in USA Today, said that the agency did not listen to the calls, but secretly obtained information on numbers dialed by "tens of millions of Americans" and used it for "data mining" — computer analysis of large amounts of information for clues or patterns to terrorist activity.

Making a hastily scheduled appearance in the White House, Mr. Bush did not directly address the collection of phone records, except to say that "new claims" had been raised about surveillance. He said all intelligence work was conducted "within the law" and that domestic conversations were not listened to without a court warrant.

"The privacy of all Americans is fiercely protected in all our activities," he said. "Our efforts are focused on Al Qaeda and their known associates."

In the Senate, Democrats denounced the article as evidence that Congress had failed to carry out its duty to make sure that the intelligence activities did not violate civil rights.

And Senator Arlen Specter, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said he would call executives of AT&T, BellSouth and Verizon "to see if we can learn some of the underlying facts."

He said he would question them about "what we can't find out from the Department of Justice or other administration officials."

The article named those three companies as cooperating with the security agency's request; it said that Quest had refused to provide the information.

The New York Times reported last December that the agency had gathered data from phone and e-mail traffic with the cooperation of several major telecommunications companies.

But Democrats reacted angrily to the USA Today article and its description of the program's vast size, including an assertion by one unnamed source that its goal was the creation of a database of every phone call ever made within the United States' borders.

"Are you telling me that tens of millions of Americans are involved with Al Qaeda?" Senator Patrick J. Leahy of Vermont, the committee's ranking minority member, asked angrily.

Like Mr. Specter, Mr. Leahy made a link between the new charge and the administration's refusal to answer the many of the committee's questions about the security agency's warrantless wiretaps of calls between the United States and overseas in which one person is suspected of terrorist ties.

"It's our government, our government!" he said, turning red in the face and waving a copy of USA Today. "It's not one party's government, it's America's government!"

Other Democrats demanded that the administration officials, including Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez and former Attorney General John Ashcroft, be subpoenaed to testify under oath about both programs.

And they made clear that they thought the new surveillance issue would complicate the nomination of Gen. Michael V. Hayden, a former head of the security agency, to be the new director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

"I want to ask General Hayden about these programs before we move forward with his nomination, which I was inclined to be supportive of, if he showed the requisite independence," said Senator Charles Schumer, a New York Democrat.

Republicans urged caution before drawing any conclusions based on the article, and noted that it described the program as collecting information only about phone numbers, not about the contents of conversations.

"It's not a wiretapping program, it's simply a compilation, according to the report here, of numbers that phone companies maintain," said Senator Jeff Sessions of Alabama.

He compared it to "mail covers" and "pen registers," techniques long used by law-enforcement authorities to record the addresses on letters or calls made by individuals under investigation. No warrant is needed for such efforts, but the government must certify with a court that the information likely to be obtained is relevant to an ongoing investigation.

Senator Dianne Feinstein, the California Democrat who is a member of the Intelligence Committee, appeared to confirm at least the gist of the article, while stressing that what was under discussion was not wiretapping. "It's fair to say that what is in the news this morning is not content collection," she said.

Even so, she warned, "I happen to believe that we are on our way to a major Constitutional confrontation on the Fourth Amendment guarantees over unreasonable search and seizure."

The Times article disclosing the data mining program last December quoted officials in the government and the telecommunications industry who have knowledge of parts of the program as saying the N.S.A. has sought to analyze communications patterns to glean clues from details like who is calling whom, how long a phone call lasts and what time of day it is made, and the origins and destinations of phone calls and e-mail messages. Calls to and from Afghanistan, for instance, are known to have been of particular interest to the N.S.A. since the Sept. 11 attacks, the officials said.

The telephone companies today declined to comment on the article, and would say only that they are assisting government agencies in accordance with the law, The Associated Press reported.

"We have been in full compliance with the law and we are committed to our customers' privacy," said Bob Varettoni, a spokesman for Verizon.

In the USA Today article, the White House defended its overall eavesdropping program and said no domestic surveillance is conducted without court approval.

"The intelligence activities undertaken by the United States government are lawful, necessary and required to protect Americans from terrorist attacks," said Dana Perino, the deputy White House press secretary, who added that appropriate members of Congress have been briefed on intelligence activities.

The anger among committee members carried over to a number of other related developments. Senator Specter said he was sending a letter to the Justice Department in response to a news report that an investigation by the Justice Department's ethics office into the lawyers who gave approval to the domestic surveillance program was abandoned because the investigators were refused the necessary security clearances.

"It's sort of incomprehensible that that was done," Senator Specter said, adding that he was asking that the clearances be granted so the review could continue.

Senator Richard Durbin, an Illinois Democrat, called the decision "clear evidence of a cover-up within this administration."

Mr. Specter also said that he "had some indication" that Mr. Ashcroft and James Comey, a former deputy Attorney General, had some knowledge about the domestic surveillance program, but said he didn't think it would be "fruitful" to subpoena them to testify.

And Mr. Specter said that he believed he had the agreement of all 10 Republicans on the committee for a bill he has proposed that would ask the special court that handles requests for warrants on foreign intelligence to rule on the Constitutionality of the domestic surveillance program.

But several Democrats indicated that they were not likely to support the bill in the absence of more information about the surveillance the government is conducting in general.

"How can we approve this without knowing much more?" asked Mr. Durbin.

Gee, waddayaknow? Toxic Adam was right. There's nothing to be alarmed about. The Decider decided for me.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Selective bolding FTW


Senator Dianne Feinstein, the California Democrat who is a member of the Intelligence Committee, appeared to confirm at least the gist of the article, while stressing that what was under discussion was not wiretapping. "It's fair to say that what is in the news this morning is not content collection," she said.


But, hey, don't let me stop you. Please show me pictures of plumes of smoke and the melting point of steel next. I am enraptured.
 

Nester

Member
bob_arctor said:
Except for one, apparently:

I work at Qwest and called some of my co-workers to see what the reaction has been like. We got one chat this morning with someone calling us Terrorist supporters for not turning over the information, but other then that we've received hundreds of e-mails and e-mails from Qwest customers and even people outside of our service area asking to move services into their area ASAP. :lol :lol

It's nice to get some good press for the company.
 
ToxicAdam, How about the fact that it's just not right and bordering "big-brotherish"

I hate, HATE making 1984 refrences but then again I'm not the one collecting data on americans without a warrent.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
I understand the concerns at a "base", instinctual level. It's the same gnaw in your gut you get when you read they are installing video cameras on every corner of big cities.

But, if you take a step back, and think objectively, this has virtually no effect on the common man. In the same way cameras really don't infringe on your rights. Collecting phone numbers is even less invasive in the grand scheme of things.

Listen. If there wasn't a big witch hunt for a GWB impeachment. You wouldn't hear two words about the NSA, Echelon or phone monitoring. Like it has been stated, the ability to do this has always been in existence. In fact, foriegn countries are doing it to US right now. Your "rights" have always been infringed upon. The only thing this article brings up is that the NSA used 9/11 to leverage private companies into doing work for them. Which is pretty unfortunate and definitely means we need to set up an independent commision that needs to monitor them.
 

darscot

Member
I'm sorry but the first thing I thought of is you know there are losers at the NSA that sit around all day and just listen to poor saps in long distance relationships have phone sex with there distant lovers. Just imagine how much abuse is happening in there. Just picture you and your buddies, I know mine would be yelling "Holy shit pick up line four this guy is telling his wife he likes to have his ass licked." or "Listen to this poor sucker tell his wife how sorry he is but it wasnt his fault he was fucking his secretary in the ass." National security my ass these guys are probable laughing there asses off in that office.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
ToxicAdam said:
Your "rights" have always been infringed upon.

Newsflash: That doesn't make it right.

Also, it's good to know that you're still in that 31% supporting Bush, really. Wear that badge proud, sport.
 

maynerd

Banned
Just to sum up.

President says wiretapping is only done with a court order.

Then we learn...
NSA is listening ONLY to international calls into the US.

Then we learn...
NSA is listening to domestic to domestic calls.

Then we learn...
NSA is gathering internet traffic information from AT&T

Then we learn...
NSA is gathering call records from all of the LECs (except Qwest)

What shall we learn next?
 

ToxicAdam

Member
xsarien said:
Newsflash: That doesn't make it right.

Also, it's good to know that you're still in that 31% supporting Bush, really. Wear that badge proud, sport.



IF YOUS AIN'T WIT US, YOUS AGAINST US!


You know what's even sadder about the Truth Crusade Brigade. Is if your point out inconsistencies in thier arguements. Thier pat answer is always, "bububu Does it make it right? bububu" It's such an immature, teenage type reaction. Oh woe is me, life isn't fair. Society and government is corrupt .. wah wah wah.

Damn, my preemptive response worked twice in one thread and this is only the first page.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
ToxicAdam said:
IF YOUS AIN'T WIT US, YOUS AGAINST US!




Damn, my preemptive response worked twice in one thread and this is only the first page.

If my only choices are "immature, teenage" arguments or defending actions like this for the most shallow, fear-mongerish reasons to grace this nation since the 1950s, then sign me up for Myspace and give me a Panic! At the Disco CD. At least I'll be able to sleep at night, I sure as hell don't know how you do.
 

APF

Member
FlameOfCallandor said:
I hate, HATE making 1984 refrences but then again I'm not the one collecting data on americans without a warrent.

Here's the thing:

He compared it to "mail covers" and "pen registers," techniques long used by law-enforcement authorities to record the addresses on letters or calls made by individuals under investigation. No warrant is needed for such efforts, but the government must certify with a court that the information likely to be obtained is relevant to an ongoing investigation.

The important question (IMO) is whether (& the degree to which) the data/action fulfills the post-bold requirement.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
APF said:
Here's the thing:



The important question (IMO) is whether (& the degree to which) the data/action fulfills the post-bold requirement.

More importantly, he qualifies it with "individuals under investigation." That's not what's happening here.
 

Macam

Banned
ToxicAdam said:
You know what's even sadder about the Truth Crusade Brigade. Is if your point out inconsistencies in thier arguements. Thier pat answer is always, "bububu Does it make it right? bububu" It's such an immature, teenage type reaction. Oh woe is me, life isn't fair. Society and government is corrupt .. wah wah wah.

Because clearly the pat philosophy of "Shit happens." (see also "Whatever.") teenage apathy mentality is much, much better.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
Macam said:
Because clearly the pat philosophy of "Shit happens." (see also "Whatever.") teenage apathy mentality is much, much better.


I'm sorry if you think that is my attitude. But, it's not. It's my attitude about the NSA having collected phone numbers, yes. But, not on overall aspect of how the NSA operates.


I've clearly stated three times now that we need an independent watchdog to monitor the NSA.
 
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