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[cvxfreak]

It will have done precisely nothing. My opinion here on the quality of Wii Sports has nothing at all to do with trying to make a meaningful impact on Wii Sports sales or how much the masses want it, so I don't even know why you'd think it's relevant to say this. Shit, the debate isn't even ABOUT whether the masses want it or not.

You could have gotten it done without the Wii Sports quality diatribe, no?

Only thing it's about: People who hated Tetris/SMB being equal/similar/the same type of gamer who now hate upon Wii Sports and fear change. My response is that's not true, there are a billion legitimate reasons to hate/dislike/be lukewarm on Wi Sports and it has nothing to do with fearing change.

Obviously it's not true for everyone, but look at dark10x these last few months. :lol His argument holds merit and your take doesn't necesarily have to contradict his, provided it's adjusted a bit. You two have very valid points.

And that's all. I don't know why you feel these other angles are important to this conversation.

Well, I obviously can't tell you what to do with your time, but if your diatribe did precisely nothing, then it won't have helped your argument at all. And that's precisely what happened. Saying that you don't like the game would have been enough, since we pretty much know that, and even if we didn't, it would have been enough anyway. The reasons are easy to figure out.

But.... I guess the satisfaction of destroying Wii Sports feels good to get out, doesn't it? Just joking.

 

[Amir0x]

You could have gotten it done without the Wii Sports quality diatribe, no?

The important aspect is to demonstrate from just one point of view (my own) why I dislike the game and why those dislikes have nothing to do with fearing change. It's better to give examples then to just state something, because then at least people have a common ground to begin understanding ones perspective.

At least, that's what I believe. I don't think things generally have the same impact without examples, but maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps I go on a bit too long about it, but that's because I don't want to be viewed as a troll.

Well, I obviously can't tell you what to do with your time, but if your diatribe did precisely nothing, then it won't have helped your argument at all. And that's precisely what happened. Saying that you don't like the game would have been enough, since we pretty much know that, and even if we didn't, it would have been enough anyway. The reasons are easy to figure out.

But.... I guess the satisfaction of destroying Wii Sports feels good to get out, doesn't it? Just joking.

What i meant was it "did precisely nothing" to impact the masses and their relation to Wii Sports. It did do something, and that's spawn more discussion over this point of view and Lapsed point of view. Which IS sort of the point of having a gaming discussion in the gaming discussion forum

Anyway, I've behaved myself I thought on the subject. I've stayed out of Wii Sports thread almost entirely after my initial impressions in the Wii launch thread because I realize that it's not right for me to just sit there bringing the mood down in a thread about a game if I hate it. I just thought here it is relevant, because sometimes I think people do get the impression I'm just an old elitist fogey who fears change.

 

[StopMakingSense]

I think the gaps in opinions in Wii Sports is very related to why it works so well for people. Wii Sports tries (and for me, completely succeeds) to be 'close enough' to the experience. For many people it will work, but for others, it may not. Like one of those 3-d images in mall, where many people can see them, but some can't.

For example, to me, Wii bowling is 'close enough' in such a way that it renders actual going to a bowling alley to bowl deprecated. This is even more meaningful in that I cannot physically bowl anymore, I am fairly disabled, and managing to pick up a heavy bowling ball and throwing it down a bowling alley is just too much for me these day. Wii Bowling actually allows me to feel like I am bowling again. That is why Wii Sports, for me, might as well be game of the decade for me, as the transcendance of that feeling is completely unique in my experiences as a gamer.

As I said, its a matter of capturing that 'close enough' feel. For some people, it might not happen, and I think for people who are active gamers, it may be more difficult to bridge that gap, as issues like graphic's features, etc. also play into how we perceive that 'close enoughness'

 

[cvxfreak]

The important aspect is to demonstrate from just one point of view (my own) why I dislike the game and why those dislikes have nothing to do with fearing change. It's better to give examples then to just state something, because then at least people have a common ground to begin understanding ones perspective.

At least, that's what I believe. I don't think things generally have the same impact without examples, but maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps I go on a bit too long about it, but that's because I don't want to be viewed as a troll.

True, but it opens up a whole can of worms on its own.

I think you did this debate in good faith. But I just had some doubts about the actual usefulness, and we've solved that.

 

[Dilbert]

I know there is no accounting for taste, and I don't intend to argue taste. Waggle away. However, I continue to object to people making bad arguments or using vague or loaded language. I'm still waiting for Lapsed to come back and defend the "tech demo" statement, but it looks like we should add "fear change" to the list as well.

What exactly does it mean to "fear change" in this context? It's a nice-sounding phrase -- you know, like "support the troops" or "win-win situation" -- but what does it really MEAN to "fear change" in the context of enjoying videogames? How can "fear" really be the right word?

I also think it's bad logic to claim that everyone who doesn't like Wii Sports has a single reason for doing so, whether it's "fear of change" or some other reason.

 

[Shouta]

and the really ironic thing here is that, DQ8 is what he hates the most apparently, a regression in gameplay compared to the other DQs before it. DQ8 is mind numbling simple game and this is coming from someone that liked the game and still loves it. take away the purty graphics and you are left with the biggest regression the series has seen since the DQ5 3-party members battles.

Except that DQ8 isn't a regression of gameplay but really a refinement. You could argue that the job system makes it more complex because of all the jobs and skills but almost 80% of them were useless and were there to pad the game. That doesn't really make the game deeper, just needlessly complex. The entire point of a job system is to give you flexibility and choices but that's lost if the jobs and skills aren't effective. Having a job system in and of itself isn't a sign of more complex gameplay either, Vandal Hearts had a job system too (although a bit more linear) but it's a shallow game.

That aside, DQ8's combat depth remains the same as any of the DQ games and perhaps a little more so with the Tension system in place. The only real difference is you don't have to go through the tedium of extra grinding in cases where you chose the wrong skills for the situation because pretty much all the skills in DQ8 are effective enough for you to use.

At any rate, I agree with Amir0x in general on Wii Sports.

 

[cvxfreak]

What exactly does it mean to "fear change" in this context? It's a nice-sounding phrase -- you know, like "support the troops" or "win-win situation" -- but what does it really MEAN to "fear change" in the context of enjoying videogames? How can "fear" really be the right word?

It means what it does. Some gamers, like dark10x, don't want the Wii to win in Japan and abroad because he believes it will turn gaming on its side in a manner he finds undesirable. The games he likes will either have to appear in last-gen fashion on the Wii with controls he may not like, or will stop being produced altogether.

 

[ziran]

The nerds were with the more hardcore personal computers and many hated the NES at the time. Computers were going 16-bit and the NES was 8-bit and played SIMPLE and CASUAL orientated games. All the hardcore games WITH DEPTH were on computers at the time. The big RPGs and adventure games were on the computers due to their keyboards and disk drives. As the NES grew beyond any analyst's imagination (they thought Nintendo would go third party and put their games on computers since console market was dead), more of the Western 'hardcore' games came to the NES.

Many adults played the NES (just as many adults played the Gameboy). When the kids went to sleep, the adults would play. Many of the games that were popular with adults then, NES's Pinball, Soccer, Tennis, etc. were mocked when hardcore gamers moved to the system. Twenty years later, those same exact games, now on the Virtual Console, are still mocked on GAF and certain short-sighted reporters. "Why are they putting this shovelware on the Virtual Console!? I think the Virtual Console should have nothing but hardcore games and Fire Emblems, LOL!" Consider that games like Pinball, Tennis, etc. are not shovelware to parents of the NES era. I'm amazed so many older adults played Legend of Zelda back then.

yeah, i remember it vividly, i was also a hardcore computer gamer expecting the masses to 'get it' and realise how amazing the new super computer gaming machines were.

both commodore and atari, after their 8 bit successes, thought the mainstream wanted deeper, more realistic, cinematic gaming experiences with powerful, cutting edge hardware, in the amiga and st (respectively) but they didn't.

the nes, a full generation behind with much simpler games, destroyed these computers, and commodore and atari were literally crippled in the battle.

it was a very interesting time.

 

[Y2Kev]

Except that DQ8 isn't a regression of gameplay but really a refinement. You could argue that the job system makes it more complex because of all the jobs and skills but almost 80% of them were useless and were there to pad the game. That doesn't really make the game deeper, just needlessly complex. The entire point of a job system is to give you flexibility and choices but that's lost if the jobs and skills aren't effective. Having a job system in and of itself isn't a sing of more complex gameplay either, Vandal Hearts had a job system too (although a bit more linear) but it's a shallow game.

That aside, DQ8's combat depth remains the same as any of the DQ games and perhaps a little more so with the Tension system in place. The only real difference is you don't have to go through the tedium of extra grinding in cases where you chose the wrong skills for the situation because pretty much all the skills in DQ8 are effective enough for you to use.

At any rate, I agree with Amir0x in general on Wii Sports.

I'm going to have to play DQ7 now because I kind of want to be able to see if I agree with these complaints.

****, I don't have time for it now...

 

[Shouta]

I'm going to have to play DQ7 now because I kind of want to be able to see if I agree with these complaints.

****, I don't have time for it now...

It's a good game, you should play it! I really like the overall scheme of the game but I do have a lot of issues with it including the job system implementation. I felt DQ6 was better in that regard but DQ's changable job system has always been a bit clumsy.

 

[Safe Bet]

Summary:

2006 = Sony Sucks, Micorsoft Rules, Nintendo is here to save gaming...

Pretty good overview of just about every article wriiten about gaming over the last year...

 

[Y2Kev]

It's a good game, you should play it! I really like the overall scheme of the game but I do have a lot of issues with it including the job system implementation. I felt DQ6 was better in that regard but DQ's changable job system has always been a bit clumsy.

Well, I just don't have the time! I hear it is the RPG that never ends!

 

[mentalfloss]

So basically we've proven that Amirox's dislike of this game does not show there is some fear of change within the minds of hardcore gamers....



so.... who cares?

 

[Shouta]

Well, I just don't have the time! I hear it is the RPG that never ends!

Well, that's one of the problems in the game too. Making you search high and low for puzzle pieces is crap and eats too much times if you ask me.

 

[Deku]

It means what it does. Some gamers, like dark10x, don't want the Wii to win in Japan and abroad because he believes it will turn gaming on its side in a manner he finds undesirable. The games he likes will either have to appear in last-gen fashion on the Wii with controls he may not like, or will stop being produced altogether.

I would define it a bit differently but I think dark10x's melodrama does warrant a fear change moniker just because he spams it everywhere.


In response to Jinx et al, I think the industry is big enough to support all genres in a healthy fashion and there will be dollars on the table coming from hardcore gamers to make some companies and at least 1 hardware player to specialize on catering to their taste. And I don't subscribe to the apocalyptic visions of doom.

'Fear change' to me is more of a political term, meant to imply those who aren't necessarily worried about the disappearance of their favorite genres, but fear losing the preeminence of the type of games made popular in the last 10 years. This could imply anything from having to play their favorite games on new unfamiliar platforms, not being on the winning team, and all manner of psychological reasons.

Of course there are also many younger teens who has had very little to work with, and in that case, they fear anything that isn't PlayStation.

 

[Error]

Shouta: at any rate, I dont want to engage into this debate because last time I played DQ7 was almost 5 years ago and I really dont remember anything about it but when I finish all of them we could then discuss the games better in that thread I did. my memory is foggy so maybe when I play all of them I'll appreciate DQ8 more and DQ7 less? who knows.

I dont want to make a post Im not sure of. it can backfire later.

 

[underfooter]

They should have mentioned DS in some form. I like wii. I like 360. BUT I LOVE DS.

 

[soundwave05]

The New York Times is pretty much spot on. That's also a surprisingly well written article. While I wouldn't neccessarily say Wii Sports is my favorite game of the year, it is most certainly one of the most (if not the most) significant. Though I will miss E3.

 

[K7 Avenger]

You can't say ANYTHING bad about the PS3 without fanboy geeks jumping down your throat screaming that you're just a "hater". PS3 sucks ass, it's a fact. If you want a real in depth explanation, many people on this forum have given it already, but if you ask I will.

 

[Safe Bet]

The New York Times is pretty much spot on. That's also a surprisingly well written article. While I wouldn't neccessarily say Wii Sports is my favorite game of the year, it is most certainly one of the most (if not the most) significant. Though I will miss E3.

When a party game becomes the most significant thing in video games, its safe to say we are headed in the wrong direction.

 

[soundwave05]

When a party game becomes the most significant thing in video games, its safe to say we are headed in the wrong direction.

Nothing wrong with party games at all IMO. All the hardcore gamer paranoia is completely unjustified. All the Brain Trainings and Nintendogs on the DS haven't stopped the DS from also getting NSMB, Mario Kart DS, Castlevania, Kirby, Final Fantasy III, Yoshi's Island 2, etc. etc. etc.

I'd like to see more party games, but ones with a little more depth. Mario Party on the Wii will be the first Mario Party game I'll play since the original.

 

[underfooter]

When a party game becomes the most significant thing in video games, its safe to say we are headed in the wrong direction.

Even if Wii sports isn't the best game of the year (I don't think anyone thinks it is), it is the easiest to pick up and play and will probably be played or seen by more people this year than any other game. As a game that brought fun to the most amount of people in the most accessible form, wii sports is GOTY by leaps and bounds.

 

[Safe Bet]

I like party games too, they can be a ton of fun, but they are not art...

I'm looking for art..

 

[soundwave05]

I like party games too, they can be a ton of fun, but they are not art...

I'm looking for art..

You're looking in the wrong industry all together then. Gaming is and always will be first and foremost about being fun.

 

[Campster]

You're looking in the wrong industry all together then.

Did you have to bring me into this thread?

Honestly, I was trying to stay out.

 

[plagiarize]

Are you guys reading what Amirox is typing?

he was typing?

i thought he was smashing his fists into the keyboard while yelling.



seriously, as always Amir0x, Dark10x, Lapsed, and cvxfreak, whether i agree with you guys on a given issue or not, i always enjoyed discussing it with you, and i don't imagine your 'voices' as loud or emotional when i'm reading.

 

[Branduil]

I like party games too, they can be a ton of fun, but they are not art...

I'm looking for art..

The definition of art is subjective and that's a can of worms I don't think we should derail this thread with.

This article is basing their GOTY vote on the fact that Wii Sports could signal a paradigm shift in the industry. It's hard to argue any other game released this year could do that.

 

[KTallguy]

This article is basing their GOTY vote on the fact that Wii Sports could signal a paradigm shift in the industry. It's hard to argue any other game released this year could do that.

That's actually a good point. However, it remains to be seen whether this paradigm shift will actually take place.

Wii Sports is really not GOTY, as much as it is "Interesting idea that might start a trend if they really work on it next time".

It's fun and accessible... and then boring. I've played it for a few hours and really have little desire to play it more. However, I can see it's draw, especially in large groups. I'd play it with family members or with non-gamer friends, but never by myself.

I think that there are two ways that the Wii will be seen in the 'gaming' entertainment space.

1. Nintendo Wii will be defined as a "party game device", for playing 'party' games. I think that's really what the casual market will treat it as.

2. The hardcore Nintendo/Zelda/Mario fans will embrace the Wii for it's more hardcore games, such as Zelda/Metroid. (Because that's what hardcore fanbases do.)

Other hardcore players will have other choices.

Sure Wii sports is signifigant. But it's not GOTY.

 

[BlackTyrano]

It's the NY Times GOTY

Just because you don't like it as much as whatever game you think is GOTY doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be considered GOTY by someone else. What makes you think your opinion is so important? I don't know, tell me if I'm just missing the point altogether. :\

 

[Grecco]

Someone explain me the outrage here. I dont understand it.

 

[Campster]

Someone explain me the outrage here. I dont understand it.

I am outraged you don't understand people's outrage.

 

[KTallguy]

What makes you think your opinion is so important? I don't know, tell me if I'm just missing the point altogether. :\

Everyone's opinion is important.

I'm expressing mine.

Sorry that you're sad that I dislike a game that you like.

 

[the girl next door]

The fact is, Nintendo delivered. They delivered gaming to the masses and N-fans. It's the hardcore gaming geeks that's upset right now because N fails to deliver games with hookers with big boobs getting decapitated...or what not.

 

[Haunted]

Heh, just poor phrasing. It should be 'the fact that my opinion is Wii Sports sucks...'

...specifically in how he introduced the point in the first sentence, sounds very much like he's implying that the type of gamers who naysayed Tetris and SMB (for whatever reason) sound/are exactly the same as those who now criticize Wii Sports. But they're not at all, the reasons for dislike (for the most part, and speaking from my point of view) is entirely different. And one is far, far more legitimate for my money.

Not everyone who hates Wii Sports is afraid of change (in the gaming industry), but everyone who is afraid of change hates Wii Sports (and what it stands for).

I'm pretty sure Lapsed would agree to that as well.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Everyone's opinion is important.

So not true, world.

Well, I guess maybe "everyone's opinion should be heard" is a better statement.

Can't get behind that one either

 

[KTallguy]

So not true, world.

Well, I guess maybe "everyone's opinion should be heard" is a better statement.

 

[BlackTyrano]

Everyone's opinion is important.

I'm expressing mine.

Sorry that you're sad that I dislike a game that you like.

I'm fine with it as long as you weren't trying to discredit someone else's equally valid opinion about the game. Sorry about misunderstanding your post, then.

 

[speculawyer]

I just got back from Toys R Us in Redwood City, California. The had a sign out saying that they were sold out of: Wii, DS, PSP, xbox 360 premium, and PS2. When I got up to the register, I asked if I could get a PS3 as a joke . . . he said "Yeah, sure . . . which model?"

WTF? Sold out of everything except the PS3! Ouch. (Well, at least Sony sold some PS2s & PSPs.) Yeah, yeah, just anectdotal . . . . . but. . . .


I picked up pyschnauts for $5.63 to play on the xbox 360. I felt kinda guilty paying so little for such a good game.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Screw all you negative nancies, I want a LinuxStation. So I can walk in any store and buy a 60gb one, eh? DONT TOY WITH ME.

 

[BigBoss]

I just got back from Toys R Us in Redwood City, California. The had a sign out saying that they were sold out of: Wii, DS, PSP, xbox 360 premium, and PS2. When I got up to the register, I asked if I could get a PS3 as a joke . . . he said "Yeah, sure . . . which model?"

WTF? Sold out of everything except the PS3! Ouch. (Well, at least Sony sold some PS2s & PSPs.) Yeah, yeah, just anectdotal . . . . . but. . . .


I picked up pyschnauts for $5.63 to play on the xbox 360. I felt kinda guilty paying so little for such a good game.

Still haven't given up from that other thread huh? :lol