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[FireFly]

boy, you're using a game that its not even out yet and you think its a matter of being positive or negative? seens to me that people are just in full denial right now

there is no such a thing of "not being cheap", we're talking about simple economics here, depending on the price point we're talking about few millions units sold at best, how does that low install base would be able to sustain an AAA at 100 million budget even at 100$ full price? it would be a tremendous risk to launch a game for that

Ok, so if you think that Rockstar are using smoke and mirrors to pretend to have ray traced GI and and reflections, then we can wait until the game is out to revisit the discussion.

And I expect that there will be an extensive cross-gen period, so developers will have access to the combined PS5 + PS6 install base. For the purposes of our discussion, that should not prevent "full RT" from being enabled in PS6 titles, as it is already present in PC releases of current gen console titles. Also Sony will want to encourage PS5 users to upgrade.

 

[meech]

Where's the issue exactly in having RT as an option?

Simple, its additional costs for the company.

 

[Landr300]

Ok, so if you think that Rockstar are using smoke and mirrors to pretend to have ray traced GI and and reflections, then we can wait until the game is out to revisit the discussion.

And I expect that there will be an extensive cross-gen period, so developers will have access to the combined PS5 + PS6 install base. For the purposes of our discussion, that should not prevent "full RT" from being enabled in PS6 titles, as it is already present in PC releases of current gen console titles. Also Sony will want to encourage PS5 users to upgrade.

Gta VI can get delayed until they remove all the RT for what we know


And how they will sell ps6 if everything is on the ps5? And do you expect the console to get cheaper over time? How?

 

[FireFly]

Gta VI can get delayed until they remove all the RT for what we know


And how they will sell ps6 if everything is on the ps5? And do you expect the console to get cheaper over time? How?

We're coming out of a discussion about how RT is used to save time, and now you're saying that they're going to rip it out and replace it with a much more time consuming process, just before the game is due to launch?

I don't expect the console to get cheaper over time, but I expect that overall inflation will make its price seem more palatable, relative to other devices. But we're a long way away from the original discussion. If the PS6 exists and games continue to be released for it, then there will be a baseline for RT graphics on the PC, and given the improvement in clock speeds and architecture over time (even with the cost per transistor failing to fall) eventually this baseline will be available to PC users at a reasonable price.

That's the subject of the debate. Not whether the PS6 will be a big success or how many units it will sell.

 

[Landr300]

We're coming out of a discussion about how RT is used to save time, and now you're saying that they're going to rip it out and replace it with a much more time consuming process, just before the game is due to launch?

I don't expect the console to get cheaper over time, but I expect that overall inflation will make its price seem more palatable, relative to other devices. But we're a long way away from the original discussion. If the PS6 exists and games continue to be released for it, then there will be a baseline for RT graphics on the PC, and given the improvement in clock speeds and architecture over time (even with the cost per transistor failing to fall) eventually this baseline will be available to PC users at a reasonable price.

That's the subject of the debate. Not whether the PS6 will be a big success or how many units it will sell.

The game is not due to launch, it got delayed one entire year and there rumors that can be delayed again for god knows how much

And they could take out RT if they find that ps5 wouldn't be capable of a good performance with RT

To be a baseline for pcs the ps6 would need to be a success and sell a lot to make devs be able to developing for it without that much risk, otherwise they just develope for the ps5 and make ps6 be like a kind of super pro

So the discussion of how much will sell is very important

 

[simpatico]

there are games that are more demanding than doom dark ages without ray tracing involved yet none of them caused any backlash

With TDS it's two-fold.

1. Performance is king in games like Doom
2. The big one: The visual upgrade is barely there. If it came out 1 year after Eternal as DLC

They are getting less expensive all the time.
5060 is 25% less expensive than a similar performing 4060Ti.
9070XT is 33% less expensive than a similar performing 9700XT.
The myth that GPUs aren't getting less expensive is just that - a baseless myth.
You could say that the *speed* with which perf/price is improving has decreased considerably. But the same thing affects every market and through that affects gaming production as well making advancements like RT becoming required waaaaaay slower too.

Historically the 5060 should perform like the 4070. And have the same amount of memory as the 5070. The xx60 card got slaughtered in the 40 series and it somehow go even worse on the 50. They've been running the same 8GB since 3060 and hell the 2060 and 1060 had 6GB and were available with the same 8.

If anyone wants to shed a tear:

Like the GTX 660 Ti launch, partners have the option of going with either 2GB or 3GB of RAM, with the former once more taking advantage of NVIDIA's asymmetrical memory controller functionality. For partners that do offer cards in both memory capacities we're expecting most partners to charge $30-$40 more for the extra 1GB of RAM.

NVIDIA has set the MSRP on the GTX 660 at $229, which NVIDIA's partners will be adhering to almost to a fault. Of the 3 cards we're looking at in our upcoming companion GTX 660 launch roundup article, every last card is going for $229 despite the fact that every last card is also factory overclocked. Because NVIDIA does not provide an exhaustive list of cards and prices it's not possible to say for sure just what the retail market will look like ahead of time, but at this point it looks like most $229 cards will be shipping with some kind of factory overclock. This is very similar to how the GTX 560 launch played out, though if it parallels the GTX 560 launch close enough then reference-clocked cards will still be plentiful in time.

At $229 the GTX 660 is going to be coming in just under AMD's Radeon HD 7870. AMD's official MSRP on the 7870 is $249, but at this point in time the 7870 is commonly available for $10 cheaper at $239 after rebate. Meanwhile the 2GB 7850 will be boxing in the GTX 660 in from the other side, with the 7850 regularly found at $199. Like we saw with the GTX 660 Ti launch, these prices are no mistake by AMD, with AMD once again having preemptively cut prices so that NVIDIA doesn't undercut them at launch. It's also worth noting that NVIDIA will not be extending their Borderlands 2 promotion to the GTX 660, so this is $229 without any bundled games, whereas AMD's Sleeping Dogs promotion is still active for the 7870.

 

[FireFly]

The game is not due to launch, it got delayed one entire year and there rumors that can be delayed again for god knows how much

And they could take out RT if they find that ps5 wouldn't be capable of a good performance with RT

To be a baseline for pcs the ps6 would need to be a success and sell a lot to make devs be able to developing for it without that much risk, otherwise they just develope for the ps5 and make ps6 be like a kind of super pro

So the discussion of how much will sell is very important

Games are built around a performance profile! It's not as if the RT performance of the PS5 is some mystery right until the end of the development. But I would love to revisit this topic once GTA 6 releases.

And I think my argument still works if the PS5 is the main platform and the PS6 version is a kind of "Pro" release. Since that's what happens currently with PC releases of console titles that get "full" RT. Again, the debate is about the viability of "full RT" modes.

 

[Schmendrick]

2. The big one: The visual upgrade is barely there. If it came out 1 year after Eternal as DLC

Horrendous bullshit.
While the general asset quality isn`t a giant leap we`re still talking about 10x times the level sizes with dozens upon dozens of enemies around you at once (Eternal looks almost "empty in comparison) which are all perfectly grounded no matter if they are in direct or indirect light with copious amounts of destructability and very high effect density all embedded in basically seamlessly transitioning environments.
The technological jump is massive .
This "i`ve seen 2 screenshots, I know what I´m talking about / this could be DLC" talk is so stupid it hurts. I´m not blown away by the visuals, simply because the asset quality is too low for my taste (even though I get why they settled for that in a fast shooter) but even then I don`t even need developer interviews and DF analysis talks to see the tremendous advancements in the tech here.

 

[Landr300]

Games are built around a performance profile! It's not as if the RT performance of the PS5 is some mystery right until the end of the development. But I would love to revisit this topic once GTA 6 releases.

And I think my argument still works if the PS5 is the main platform and the PS6 version is a kind of "Pro" release. Since that's what happens currently with PC releases of console titles that get "full" RT. Again, the debate is about the viability of "full RT" modes.

If was that simple there won't be downgrades or rush in the last months of development

And if the ps6 will be a kind of pro the full RT will never replace the RT that exists today

And depending on how bad it sells devs could even pass to make a patch for it

 

[Landr300]

Horrendous bullshit.
While the general asset quality isn`t a giant leap we`re still talking about 10x times the level sizes with dozens upon dozens of enemies around you at once (Eternal looks almost "empty in comparison) which are all perfectly grounded no matter if they are in direct or indirect light with copious amounts of destructability and very high effect density all embedded in basically seamlessly transitioning environments.
The technological jump is massive .
This "i`ve seen 2 screenshots, I know what I´m talking about" is so stupid it hurts. I´m not blown away by the visuals, simply because the asset quality is too low for my taste (even though I get why they settled for that in a fast shooter) but even then I don`t even need developer interviews and DF analysis talks to see the tremendous advancements in the tech here.

The numbers of enemy is CPU, they probably could have made with less conplex enemy's if they want and the maps already had a big jump on eternal

None of this is an true advance in graphical fidelity

Its just like saying that GTA San Andreas is a true generation leap to GTA 3

 

[Schmendrick]

The numbers of enemy is CPU, they probably could have made with less conplex enemy's if they want and the maps already had a big jump on eternal

None of this is an true advance in graphical fidelity

Its just like saying that GTA San Andreas is a true generation leap to GTA 3

more horrendous bullshit ignoring 90% of what you`re replying to because you have no argument or the faintest clou what you're even talking about whatsoever.
like pretty much every single other reply from you in this thread.

 

[FireFly]

If was that simple there won't be downgrades or rush in the last months of development

And if the ps6 will be a kind of pro the full RT will never replace the RT that exists today

And depending on how bad it sells devs could even pass to make a patch for it

Generally developers don't completely rip out their lighting system shortly before release, because they "didn't realise" how costly it was. Downgrading means reducing quality to meet performance targets, not completely refactoring entire systems and starting from scratch.

And the debate was not about whether full RT would replace other kinds, but whether it would be viable to use on budget cards. Given that extreme budget cards will still exist, including integrated graphics, it makes sense to allow significant scalability downwards. It should be fairly straightforward to fall back from ray traced reflections to SSR and from ray traced shadows to shadow maps.

 

[Gaiff]

The numbers of enemy is CPU, they probably could have made with less conplex enemy's if they want and the maps already had a big jump on eternal

None of this is an true advance in graphical fidelity

Its just like saying that GTA San Andreas is a true generation leap to GTA 3

Stop saying nonsense. "The number of enemy is CPU". The fuck?

 

[Landr300]

shortly before release

Depends what you mean by shortly, the game can be delayed for two entire years for what we know, is that shortly before release?

 

[Landr300]

Stop saying nonsense. "The number of enemy is CPU". The fuck?

Yeah, why do you think that assassin's Creed unity runs so badly at launch on the last gen consoles? And why do you think that syndicate is so empty on comparison?

 

[Gaiff]

Yeah, why do you think that assassin's Creed unity runs so badly at launch on the last gen consoles? And why do you think that syndicate is so empty on comparison?

It's both CPU and GPU-intensive. Quit talking about stuff you know nothing about.

 

[Landr300]

It's both CPU and GPU-intensive. Quit talking about stuff you know nothing about.

Jesus Christ, i am not talking about the pc tests here when even the budget CPU are far better than what was on the consoles, i am talking about the consoles, it's common knowledge that the issue is cpu, so much so that the very next entry in the series was empty

 

[DryvBy]

Wow, I've never heard of video games having bugs before. What does this even have to do with RT?

Wow, learn to read what I replied to.

 

[FireFly]

Depends what you mean by shortly, the game can be delayed for two entire years for what we know, is that shortly before release?

It's a year before the game is due to be released. Even if the game is delayed, my statement still holds. Games at this point do not generally see large engine changes, since the core characteristics of the technology are known and the majority of content should already be in place. Like, even a project as badly managed as DNF stuck with the same core technology after 2003/2004. It's also why frequently delayed games often look "dated" on release, as the core technology decisions were made a long time ago.

 

[Spukc]

This dude is fucking annoying

 

[OverHeat]

Plebs

 

[Hashassin]

Dang what a jarhead. Like a square jarhead.

 

[rodrigolfp]

The numbers of enemy is CPU, they probably could have made with less conplex enemy's if they want and the maps already had a big jump on eternal

Do you think it's the CPU that process the polygons and textures/shaders in the additional enemies?

 

[Fafalada]

They are right. Back in the day PC gaming was for enthusiast. He brought up Half life 2 and Crysis and it made us go, ok we need to upgrade or build a PC. Now the PC space is filled with cheap bastards who buy shitty 8GB GPUs while refusing to upgrade their CPUs

PC space was always filled with those people - it's just the difference that when og Doom released and it was only playable as intended by like... half a milion PCs - that's about all it ended up selling too after a few years, and nooned cared.
Now a game sells less than 20M in first week* and every forum/social media platform is full of people screaming how it bombed and the studio should just die etc. (and it happens to all - apparently everyone has people wanting them to fail). And yea - if you want to have massive sales (and keep selling for years to come) - you have to cater to 5-10years of hw-tail, there's no ways around it.

*As long as it's a full priced release that had any semblance of marketing. The games that get a pass are always lower priced or not marketed.

 

[Landr300]

It's a year before the game is due to be released. Even if the game is delayed, my statement still holds. Games at this point do not generally see large engine changes, since the core characteristics of the technology are known and the majority of content should already be in place. Like, even a project as badly managed as DNF stuck with the same core technology after 2003/2004. It's also why frequently delayed games often look "dated" on release, as the core technology decisions were made a long time ago.

Yes, generally but not always, and i not sure if this would require a engine change

The game already received a giant downgrade from the first trailer alone

 

[Schmendrick]

Yes, generally but not always, and i not sure if this would require a engine change

The game already received a giant downgrade from the first trailer alone

 

[Landr300]

Do you think it's the CPU that process the polygons and textures/shaders in the additional enemies?

No but control the enemies beyond send all the data to the GPU

The why you guys are trying to deny something that is clear as day is beyond me, even DF has talked about this

 

[Landr300]

Try to answer with arguments please

 

[Schmendrick]

Try to answer with arguments please

Thought I`d already put you clown on ignore. corrected my mistake..

 

[Landr300]

Thought I`d already put you clown on ignore. corrected my mistake..

See ya

 

[dgrdsv]

the 5060? the one with half of the vram?

Half of the VRAM of what? 4060Ti had 8GB too.
16GB version was $500 so in comparison to that you get a 16GB 5060Ti at $430 - a 15% reduction but with a performance in-between 4060Ti and 4070 so about similar +25% in perf/price as well.

and what is an 9700xt? you mean the 7900xt? the one who is less expensive overall right now on newegg?

Yep. It is less expensive right now but you're not comparing new parts to the ones which were EOLed half a year ago, you compare cards at similar time of their lifecycle. 9070 will also be selling with a discount once it will be EOLed and the new generation would launch.

But then the peoples who jumped to RT hardware capable cards in the bottom echelon will complain that path tracing is too hard to run, should just have RTGI, etc. I agree with L Landr300

PT will be an optional mode for quite some time still. Next gen consoles are unlikely to be capable of running PT outside of some simpler titles. It is also highly scalable - once the cost of adding RT is payed the performance can be varied greatly by controlling numbers of rays and bounces.

Historically the 5060 should perform like the 4070.

There is no "historically". We're not getting something done on the same production line and with the same tech, we're getting a new product which has no relation to how things were "historically".

They've been running the same 8GB since 3060 and hell the 2060 and 1060 had 6GB and were available with the same 8.

Because there's nothing "historically" in RAM as well. RAM is also chips, they are also being made on a silicon production line and they are affected by the same limitations as all chips right now.
Previously it was easy to fit 2X the cells into the same cost, now it's not. GDDR6 had capacities of up to 8GB per chip in specs IIRC and yet we've only seen it go as high as 2GB - because making denser chips weren't cost effective.
Previously you would see VRAM sizes double on the same bus width because memory manufacturers were able to shrink RAM cells into an area which allowed them to put twice as much into the same cost. Now they can't do that at the same pace.
It is btw the reason why we only see 3GB G7 modules on high end 50 series laptops parts only right now - even they with their 1.5 density increase cost too much.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Plebs

Thank you!

Why are gaming requiring NVMEs we should still be using mechanical drives and waiting 30 minutes for levels to load.

 

[MadchesterManc]

I honestly don't get the backlash. If you consider consoles the baseline, they have RT hardware so this was always going to happen. Can't recall anything like this these past few years when games started to have an SSD in the required specs

 

[Bojji]

I honestly don't get the backlash. If you consider consoles the baseline, they have RT hardware so this was always going to happen. Can't recall anything like this these past few years when games started to have an SSD in the required specs

Consoles got pixel shader 3.0 hardware in 2005/2006 and shit ton of games started requiring it. Same story with dx11 after PS4/X1 launched.

 

[mrMUR_96]

Yes, generally but not always, and i not sure if this would require a engine change

The game already received a giant downgrade from the first trailer alone

I'm genuinely confused about this, GTA 6 looks noticeably improved in the new trailer in just about every aspect and it's confirmed to be gameplay footage from PS5 (non-pro). In what way was it downgraded? You're surely baiting about them dropping RT or you literally just have no idea about you're talking about.

 

[Windom Earle]

You know I really don't mind the RTX in the slightest... But Debra Wilson is in this game LARPing as a white girl. Now that is where I draw the line.

 

[simpatico]

There is no "historically". We're not getting something done on the same production line and with the same tech, we're getting a new product which has no relation to how things were "historically".

Nvidia can bin and price things however they please. There was absolutely a precedent from the 200 series, through 400, 500, 600, 700, 900, 1000, 2000 and 3000. Every consumer could expect a certain performance profile for a xx60, 70 or 80. Nvidia changed the terms of that in the 4000s.

 

[rm082e]

If we hadn't seen such a big increase in NVIDIA card pricing, combined with reduced availability, none of this would be an issue to complain about. And NVIDIA pricing and availability is a reflection of the market conditions. They made crappy and expensive cards because they make a lot more money (right now) focusing their resources on AI. They're prioritizing profits, which is exactly what publicly traded companies are supposed to do.

As annoyed as I am with the state of the GPU market, I'm not tempted to call out the developer for using the tools they have at their disposal.

 

[Black_Stride]

Yes, generally but not always, and i not sure if this would require a engine change

The game already received a giant downgrade from the first trailer alone

Are you being serious, on drugs or just trolling?

GTA6 looks alot better than it did in the initial trailer.
Like alot alot better.

And you thinking they will delay the game to get rid of RT when RT is one of the best time savers for an open world game makes zero sense.
Weve already seen the Series X and PS5 pull off RTGI pretty well.
Hell Rockstar have had years and year with nigh literally unlimited dollars I wouldnt be shocked if this becomes the best looking open world game on console till it takes the crown again with the nextgen release.
They have the budget, talent, manpower and engine to get this game to where it needs to be easy work.






This is a really weird hill to die on, most of the detractors have even left the thread as they realized their arguments didnt make sense but you are still here?

 

[MadchesterManc]

Consoles got pixel shader 3.0 hardware in 2005/2006 and shit ton of games started requiring it. Same story with dx11 after PS4/X1 launched.

Like you say the past few console generations have had a similar trends so it should come as no surprise really. We've had GPU's since 2018 and consoles since 2020, upcoming Switch 2 as well, that all have a baseline feature set for DX12U & RT so it was going to happen. At least its only been a few games so far to mandate these features, it was a lot more ruthless back in the day when your new GPU could be obsolete in a couple of years time. A 1080ti & 5700XT can still play like almost every game releasing today.

 

[Landr300]

GTA 6 looks noticeably improved in the new trailer in just about every aspect

GTA6 looks alot better than it did in the initial trailer.
Like alot alot better.

You can cleary see the difference in water on this, look at the trees, its massive downgrade across the board

 

[DeepEnigma]

You can cleary see the difference in water on this, look at the trees, its massive downgrade across the board

It's not a "massive downgrade," it's a different location, elevation, time of day, and camera angle.

People are retarded.

 

[mrMUR_96]

Nvidia can bin and price things however they please. There was absolutely a precedent from the 200 series, through 400, 500, 600, 700, 900, 1000, 2000 and 3000. Every consumer could expect a certain performance profile for a xx60, 70 or 80. Nvidia changed the terms of that in the 4000s.

I think I've disagreed with everything you've said about RT, but this absolutely true, Nvidia have absolutely nerfed the performance profiles from the 4000 series onwards. Very shitey tactics with limiting vram amounts too.

 

[mrMUR_96]

You can cleary see the difference in water on this, look at the trees, its massive downgrade across the board

Different time of day and angle, assets and lighting quality look the same. The characters, lighting and reflections have all seen obvious upgrades.

 

[Landr300]

It's not a "massive downgrade," it's a different location, elevation, time of day, and camera angle.

People are retarded.

Just look at ship at distance, everything is more videogame like, you can cleary see the model wit low textures and so on

The water, everything, no one wonder this game got delayed one entire year and will probably get delayed again, it's not even close to be completed

 

[DeepEnigma]

Just look at ship at distance, everything is more videogame like, you can cleary see the model wit low textures and so on

The water, everything, no one wonder this game got delayed one entire year and will probably get delayed again, it's not even close to be completed

Ok.

It was only delayed 6mo from the internal release date. Was scheduled to release this Nov/Dec.

 

[simpatico]

I think I've disagreed with everything you've said about RT, but this absolutely true, Nvidia have absolutely nerfed the performance profiles from the 4000 series onwards. Very shitey tactics with limiting vram amounts too.

No idea how you're able to separate the two things. They go hand in hand logically.

 

[demented waffle]

Not really. Ray tracing is not a new concept. It wasn't implemented sooner because the cost was too great. I would argue it still is.

New? Shit has been around for years. Don't blame the devs because you bought a sub-standard card for the task.

 

[Landr300]

Ok.

It was only delayed 6mo from the internal release date. Was scheduled to release this Nov/Dec.

Now we get to resolve to internal release date?

It's interesting because when any other game get delayed i particularly never seen people brought up the internal release, they always talks like it's was going to launch tomorrow, but it's ok, the game will get the second delay and then will come to the 1 year mark

This aside let's go back to the image, no time of the day or angle can cause what we see on the second image, everything is, draw distance including

 

[DeepEnigma]

Now we get to resolve to internal release date?

It's interesting because when any other game get delayed i particularly never seen people brought up the internal release, they always talks like it's was going to launch tomorrow, but it's ok, the game will get the second delay and then will come to the 1 year mark

This aside let's go back to the image, no time of the day or angle can cause what we see on the second image, everything is, draw distance including

The CEO brought it up in an interview and their earnings report. They were going to release it Nov/Dec of this year. The team asked more time to polish things up and said they only need 6 more months, the CEO said that it would not cost them any more money to delay compared to the polish in their return.

That is the official information we have. Not gamer tinfoil doom & gloom every online autist wants to prorogate for every damned game all the damned time. If it gets delayed again, which very well could happen, so be it.

But the fact of the matter, officially, it was not "delayed a whole year."

The whole schadenfreude of wanting this to fail is just more of the same cuntery in our hobby.

ProTip: It won't.