Support NeoGAF

[Quixzlizx]

I understand why she was fired, and I don't even think it's particularly unfair. If you have a public-facing job like "Director of Communications," it's probably not a good idea to do anything that can possibly make your company look bad. I still sympathize with her, since I think she was going for off-color satire rather than virulent racism. She doesn't come off as the type of insanely ignorant/racist person who literally believes that white people can't get AIDS, so I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to be interpreting it.

The Internet lynch mobs are pretty gross, however. It's like a bunch of people who have felt powerless in their day-to-day lives now suddenly have the power to destroy lives, and they get to feel good acting out their power/revenge/"justice" fantasies. You'd think they'd be self-aware enough to realize how hypocritical they're being. I honestly respect people who do it "for the lulz" more than people who sincerely believe they are doing something moral and just. Deluded people are more dangerous.

 

[neojubei]

She was obviously trying to be funny. She failed. Not a reason to lose her job.

Not that anyone will put the tweet in the context of her timeline, but they should

How is that trying to be funny? If you want to try your hand at making racist jokes Twitter is the worst place to do it.

 

[skybald]

How is that trying to be funny? If you want to try your hand at making racist jokes Twitter is the worst place to do it.

Putting too much emphasis on the racist part of racist joke.

Does anyone know her follower count? Does anyone know if it was a private profile and not her work twitter account?

 

[CrankyJay]

Putting too much emphasis on the racist part of racist joke.

Does anyone know her follower count? Does anyone know if it was a private profile and not her work twitter account?

well her account is gone...but at the time of the tweet the article stated she had 170 followers. it blew up to absurd proportions once that jerkoff from Gawker brought attention to it with his 15,000 followers.

 

[Cybit]

How is that trying to be funny? If you want to try your hand at making racist jokes Twitter is the worst place to do it.

Because she / her family is from South Africa; the irony is that she, of all people, would be saying that. Especially as a white woman who grew up right as apartheid was being dismantled. She is (poorly) attempting to comment on how race & living in the USA colors our view of AIDS.

 

[Stet]

Putting too much emphasis on the racist part of racist joke.

Does anyone know her follower count? Does anyone know if it was a private profile and not her work twitter account?

Public profile, not her work Twitter account but obviously tied to it, and speaking to over 3k people with a potential reach of tens of thousands based on Retweets alone.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Surprise surprise, doing something shameful in public results in a public shaming. I think a better question is how did a director of communications get that position while being so ignorant of her public communications? PEACE.

 

[mclem]

Sacco's Modem Life?

 

[skybald]

well her account is gone...but at the time of the tweet the article stated she had 170 followers. it blew up to absurd proportions once that jerkoff from Gawker brought attention to it with his 15,000 followers.

I don't know how you sleep at night knowing you got someone fired from there job. And fired not because of poor performance but because a mob of online people likely harassed the company until they did something about it.

Not a good reason to fire someone.

I don't even really understand the joke. Seems like it is missing a word or something.

 

[Sai-kun]

I don't know how you sleep at night knowing you got someone fired from there job. And fired not because of poor performance but because a mob of online people likely harassed the company until they did something about it.

Not a good reason to fire someone.

I don't even really understand the joke. Seems like it is missing a word or something.

really?

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Great piece by the NY times. Although I want to ask why he thinks public shaming ended at some time in the late 1700's? Public shaming is constant throughout America's history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

I won't post the pictures in here because they are inflammatory but shaming is engrained in our culture. Not to say it's right but the premise of his story that there was a time when we shamed people and it was a long time ago , is faulty. I would say many people left home in the 1950's and 60's because of public shaming. Babies shipped to relatives because we couldn't have our daughter raise a kid without being married. What world does he live in?

 

[Future]

I don't know how you sleep at night knowing you got someone fired from there job. And fired not because of poor performance but because a mob of online people likely harassed the company until they did something about it.

Not a good reason to fire someone.

I don't even really understand the joke. Seems like it is missing a word or something.

Can't feel that bad when they are acting like a jack ass. People like this because its a lessons learned moment: publicly being demeaning to large groups of people is not a good idea. Think about what you say cuz there may be consequences

 

[skybald]

really?

The "I'm white" part of it sort of throws me off. Like she know that white people can be afflicted by HIV obviously.

And someone said she grew up in South Africa so there is probably a context to the joke I am missing.

Is everyone skipping over the part where she calls the German man stinky? I guess she hates white people too

 

[A_Gorilla]

The "I'm white" part of it sort of throws me off. Like she know that white people can be afflicted by HIV obviously.

And someone said she grew up in South Africa so there is probably a context to the joke I am missing.

Is everyone skipping over the part where she calls the German man stinky? I guess she hates white people too

"Irish need not apply" Caucasians can and have been prejudiced against other Caucasians.

 

[Stet]

well her account is gone...but at the time of the tweet the article stated she had 170 followers. it blew up to absurd proportions once that jerkoff from Gawker brought attention to it with his 15,000 followers.

She followed 170 people. She had over 3,000 followers.

 

[CrankyJay]

She followed 170 people. She had over 3,000 followers.

She chuckled to herself as she pressed send on this last one, then wandered around Heathrow’s international terminal for half an hour, sporadically checking her phone. No one replied, which didn’t surprise her. She had only 170 Twitter followers.

Don't correct me young buck.

 

[Donos]

Do you all remember the days after Obama got re-elected? That thread here that showed all the super racist tweets and facebook entries and a lot them saying obama should be killed.... Those people fucked up.

 

[Stet]

Don't correct me young buck.

That's inaccurate reporting then, because I just posted an image of what her profile looked like on the day of the event.

http://b-i.forbesimg.com/kashmirhill/files/2013/12/Justine-Sacco.jpg

 

[riotous]

The "I'm white" part of it sort of throws me off. Like she know that white people can be afflicted by HIV obviously.

That's the punchline of the joke; she is being insensitive towards the fact HIV infection rates are higher among black populations.

Or she could be calling attention to the issue in a satirical way; but unless you are an actual comedian (like say Daniel Tosh, whose racist / sexist jokes are really satirizing racism) you rarely will get away with that.

Is everyone skipping over the part where she calls the German man stinky? I guess she hates white people too

Neither joke is proof she hates any race.

Her tweet was stupid; and it's not surprising many will overreact.. damn her.. call her racist..call her a piece of shit, etc. Welcome to the modern world where people flex their insult muscles from their high horses; doesn't take a genius to avoid being the target of such scorn however.

 

[CrankyJay]

That's inaccurate reporting then, because I just posted an image of what her profile looked like on the day of the event.

http://b-i.forbesimg.com/kashmirhill/files/2013/12/Justine-Sacco.jpg

Yeah, she gained those followers AFTER those tweets...here

 

[Blader]

I don't know how you sleep at night knowing you got someone fired from there job. And fired not because of poor performance but because a mob of online people likely harassed the company until they did something about it.

Not a good reason to fire someone.

I don't even really understand the joke. Seems like it is missing a word or something.

Because it's not your responsibility? Whether or not someone is fired is a decision made by their manager. If their cowtowing to mob pressure or whatever, then that's made at their discretion. You can't make someone else lose their job without some of their management agreeing.

 

[Stet]

Yeah, she gained those followers AFTER those tweets...here

Well, you're right on that point. And it's strange for the Director of CorpComms to have so few followers -- but it's still hundreds of people that wouldn't have been available for her to glibly talk to 10 years ago.

 

[CrankyJay]

Well, you're right on that point. And it's strange for the Director of CorpComms to have so few followers -- but it's still hundreds of people that wouldn't have been available for her to glibly talk to 10 years ago.

We're getting off track, my whole point is, some dude on Gawker made someone pay for that tweet with his massive following...for some hits on his own article/site.

That's fine I guess, and yeah, I can see why a PR person who says this lost her job...but his follow up article on the matter is kind of what really disgusts me.

But despite her near invisibility on social media, she was still ridiculed and demonized across the Internet. Biddle wrote a Valleywag post after she returned to the work force: “Sacco, who apparently spent the last month hiding in Ethiopia after infuriating our species with an idiotic AIDS joke, is now a ‘marketing and promotion’ director at Hot or Not.”

“How perfect!” he wrote. “Two lousy has-beens, gunning for a comeback together.”

At this point I just find this to be straight up bullying...basically punishing her twice for the same thing.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Didn't her entire Twitter timeline have some very offensive comments in it? If I recall it wasn't just that one tweet.

 

[Quixzlizx]

We're getting off track, my whole point is, some dude on Gawker made someone pay for that tweet with his massive following...for some hits on his own article/site.

That's fine I guess, and yeah, I can see why a PR person who says this lost her job...but his follow up article on the matter is kind of what really disgusts me.



At this point I just find this to be straight up bullying...basically punishing her twice for the same thing.

And it's great how the crybaby mob turned on him when he made the "Bring back bullying" joke. Poetic, although he unfortunately didn't get fired over it.

 

[CrankyJay]

And it's great how the crybaby mob turned on him when he made the "Bring back bullying" joke. Poetic, although he unfortunately didn't get fired over it.

Well, at least he wrote an apology article to her...

 

[Irminsul]

Well, at least he wrote an apology article to her...

According to Twitter mob logic that really shouldn't count.

 

[a secret-boss]

Reading the article now, but I remember when this happened. Hhere's the GAF thread, posted right when it was starting to go viral.

See I knew this sounded familiar

 

[Rocket Scientist]

It's a great article, very well written and really makes you think about the issue. Obviously these people did stupid things and deserved to be ridiculed, but when you see how big of an effect it has on people's lives and mental states, it's clearly too much.

 

[CrankyJay]

It's a great article, very well written and really makes you think about the issue. Obviously these people did stupid things and deserved to be ridiculed, but when you see how big of an effect it has on people's lives and mental states, it's clearly too much.

to a degree, it happens here on GAF...

person posts something stupid, everyone dogpiles on to see if they can get the person to trip up, and ultimately get them banned

 

[Rocket Scientist]

to a degree, it happens here on GAF...

person posts something stupid, everyone dogpiles on to see if they can get the person to trip up, and ultimately get them banned

Absolutely, it's so easy to ridicule a post on forums and the internet in general. You don't see the other person and the effect it can have on them psychologically. It's one of the reasons there should be more articles like this and more education about cyber bullying etc.

 

[riotous]

to a degree, it happens here on GAF...

person posts something stupid, everyone dogpiles on to see if they can get the person to trip up, and ultimately get them banned

Yeah generally best not to respond to "the mob" if you are their target here. Either back down or say you don't want to derail the thread and unsubscribe.

 

[Opiate]

I've mentioned this many times, but I feel our generation (we're talking anywhere from 10-35 right now) are the beta testers for this new, more connected world.

You used to be able to tell off color jokes and typically get away with it, even if occasionally they're in poor taste. Now, one stupid remark can end not just your career, but your job prospects forever.

There's probably some kid right now making a youtube video that is vaguely racist, that catches on, that will then show up in any net check any company does for the rest of their life.

We're the first generation to go through this particular gauntlet, and there is clearly a learning curve. Some eggs are being broken.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

I've mentioned this many times, but I feel our generation (we're talking anywhere from 10-35 right now) are the beta testers for this new, more connected world.

Haha, this is a great way to put it and definitely true. Perhaps one of the good things is that it will make political campaigns even more interesting.

 

[JABEE]

It's sad to me that people aren't allowed to make mistakes these days without their lives being ruined.

There's a not a person on this forum who hasn't said something stupid in their lives. Maybe even a few times. It's not really how you feel, but maybe you were trying to make a joke, make a point, or be funny and it just came out wrong or it wasn't funny and offended someone or a maybe a lot of someone's.

There's no chance to talk to, educate someone, or explain how hurtful things can be. No, instead we go straight for the throat and don't stop until we've completely stripped that person of every inch of their livelihood and left them on the floor a broken mess in the fetal position.

There's no humanity in this. It's nothing but straight up mob justice and bullying without repercussions.

And that's what this is all about. It's like a public flogging. People want their pound of flesh.

 

[riotous]

We're the first generation to go through this particular gauntlet, and there is clearly a learning curve. Some eggs are being broken.

It's confusing to me why it's hard for people to understand; I get it with teenagers, but grown adults?

Keep it clean on anything tied to your real name.. what else is there to learn?

 

[DoktorEvil]

It's confusing to me why it's hard for people to understand; I get it with teenagers, but grown adults?

Keep it clean on anything tied to your real name.. what else is there to learn?

The best way to play is not to.

No social media engagement. Contact people using traditional methods.

 

[Damerman]

"Senior director of corporate communications". Quite the high-end job for a 30yr old who made such statements. Must've sucked that major D to get that high up so early.

common guy... attack nepotism, attack privilege she may have had that no one else has... but really, this shit?

 

[riotous]

The best way to play is not to.

No social media engagement. Contact people using traditional methods.

I just have a Facebook that I keep really generic. I personally think that's the best way to play; I do consulting / contract work and many companies prefer you at least have a profile with a few pictures that you are willing to link to them. Put on a smiling face for the clients sort of thing. If your job requires communication skills you might not be hired if competing against someone with a social media profile if you don't have one.

 

[spectral_method]

Clearly we should know by now what is acceptable to say in a public setting. Would you crack a dead baby joke in a supermarket within earhot of 10 or more people, probably not. Same thing applies to social media where you aren't anonymous, if your manager can look up your tweets would you post tons of dead baby jokes, probably not.

You just have to know how far you can take it with public social media. There are places for people to post things without repercussions, twitter/fb isn't one of those. This isn't hard to understand.

On the same note the people that go out of their way to highlight these jokes and crusade against the people that post them, can go fuck off. How pathetic is your life that you have to go on twitter, take offense at something and try to show how shitty the comment was. People like this need to get a hobby, something fitting for these morons like cryptozoology or wine tasting.

 

[skybald]

We're getting off track, my whole point is, some dude on Gawker made someone pay for that tweet with his massive following...for some hits on his own article/site.

That's fine I guess, and yeah, I can see why a PR person who says this lost her job...but his follow up article on the matter is kind of what really disgusts me.

Actually it is worse that the person wrote an article about the obscure tweet and ended up helping this person get fired. He is the real asshole in the whole ordeal.

Who are these people who even care about random twitter feeds?

 

[poppabk]

It's confusing to me why it's hard for people to understand; I get it with teenagers, but grown adults?

Keep it clean on anything tied to your real name.. what else is there to learn?

Read the dongle story in the OP. All it takes is one inane joke in front of the wrong person to set this off.

 

[wildfire]

Yes, people often go way overboard in seeking to harm individuals who do a dumb thing or who express a belief they disagree with. The internet makes this terrible. Presumably a lot of this is the fundamental attribution error.

We can hopefully all agree that the vindictive twitter mobs that go after people we agree with are a pretty awful thing. But they're not awful just because they're not on our side. When the subject comes up, liberals who I otherwise agree with on most everything like to throw around "freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences" as if they've suddenly turned into libertarians who are okay with coordinated, abusive uses of social power as long as the government isn't involved. It's an absurdly disproportionate response in almost all cases and people who contribute to the problem ought to be ashamed of themselves. A commitment to a substantive right to freedom of speech requires meaningful tolerance of disagreeable speech, not this weak "well as long as we're not actually throwing them in jail it's okay" thing.

I'm 100% on board with making it much harder for employees to be fired for things they say outside of work. This is good for employees, and not just ones who say racist things - probably lots more employees get fired for talking about problems they've got with their employer (even as part of clearly political activity like advocating for a higher minimum wage) or for annoying their boss in ways that the boss should really just have to deal with. It's good for employers - they can reply to the twitter mobs by pointing out that they can't fire the person. The core social problem is the twitter mobs, though, and it's important to be clear that this is really ugly behavior.

And this touches on a subject where I was going against the grain of the internet mob. While I was fine with Sacco and Orth incidents I was dissatisfied with the way the Mozilla CEO was dismissed for his homophobic agenda.

It is horrible that he has such viewpoints but he tried pushing forward his agenda through legal political venues and thoroughly lost. Just because he still holds those views didn't mean the company he helped establish, 9 years after he lost the political play, was going to become a hostile environment for homosexuals. If anything, before people were digging into his background, Mozilla was regarded as progressive from within and outside the company.

It doesn't matter if he was rich enough to recover from his removal. My point is that many people who say they care about justice don't care when they apply it. They didn't even wait for him to do anything wrong. They just dug up his past actions and when he wouldn't apologize for holding those beliefs they attacked him for what he might do.

 

[FinalStageBoss]

It's confusing to me why it's hard for people to understand; I get it with teenagers, but grown adults?

Keep it clean on anything tied to your real name.. what else is there to learn?

Yeah, it's actually really fucking simple.

 

[riotous]

Read the dongle story in the OP. All it takes is one inane joke in front of the wrong person to set this off.

Yeah that's a bit of a different story; pretty crazy.

 

[KingFire]

Your digital and physical existences are more unified than ever. Companies value appearances and personalities. This is why I am very careful of what I post online in my social media accounts. Although I do not have many followers, I know that stupidity can spread like fire in a minute. As a fellow human being, I do a lot of stupid shit. However, I am careful enough not to post any of it online because I can never know who is reading.

 

[Romez]

Didn't her entire Twitter timeline have some very offensive comments in it? If I recall it wasn't just that one tweet.

Yep

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jenvesp/16-tweets-justine-sacco-regrets-hxg7

Exactly why I don't/didn't buy this 'I was mocking/making a point' excuse.

 

[Crocodile]

The point of the article is that there is no "moderation" involved in this. The nature of the internet mob (and of mobs) is that they are not rational nuanced creatures. The part about "should she have been fired" is an illegitimate argument. There is no middle ground. There is "nothing" or "burned to the ground". That's how it has always been throughout history. From the Salem Witch Trials to McCarthyism. Mob justice has no nuance, no boundaries, besides total destruction. By its' very nature it can only completely destroy. That's why when you say "it should have been broadcast on the internet so she would have been fired", you are inherently saying "she should have had her life completely destroyed for it." Because that's the sad truth. There is no middle ground.

I'm confused. You obviously don't mean to say that no justifiable consequences should follow from ostensibly short sighted actions. However, you can't equate recourse from one's employers to those online who may become overzealous. Like I agree that people can get way too overzealous in the name of justice (and as beseda said since they are all different, uncoordinated individuals with a desire to express themselves you can often get an incidental torrent of voices) but whether someone deserved to be fired for causing a PR snafu for their place of employment (especially if their job is PR) is a separate issue than the internet mob.

I've noticed this too and it's depressing every time. Specifically I am reminded of the controversy over the Mozilla executive (CEO) who had apparently donated to some sort of anti-gay-marriage organization some years before ever being elevated to the post. The left-leaning people who would generally be against this sort of bullying when it happens to the LGBT community started a chorus demanding the guy's resignation and a boycott, and ultimately he was forced out.

My memory may be off but wasn't the big issue that he didn't apologized for doing that in the past but rather doubled down? I recall THAT being the cause of his "downfall".

 

[Cagey]

We can hopefully all agree that the vindictive twitter mobs that go after people we agree with are a pretty awful thing. But they're not awful just because they're not on our side. When the subject comes up, liberals who I otherwise agree with on most everything like to throw around "freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences" as if they've suddenly turned into libertarians who are okay with coordinated, abusive uses of social power as long as the government isn't involved. It's an absurdly disproportionate response in almost all cases and people who contribute to the problem ought to be ashamed of themselves. A commitment to a substantive right to freedom of speech requires meaningful tolerance of disagreeable speech, not this weak "well as long as we're not actually throwing them in jail it's okay" thing.

It's a truism cited as justification to allow those who engage in such acts -- including the mob mentality exhibited at times, and by some, on this board -- to absolve themselves of responsibility for their own actions and simultaneously maintain a moral superiority over those they're jumping on.

"I'm not in favor of using speech in an effort to highlight, shame, disparage, protest, and ultimately tangibly harm others, it's just the result that comes with freedom of speech. Besides, if they didn't do what they did in the first place, there'd be no reaction. That you're focused on my actions and not theirs is telling of what you believe."

A nasty combination of dishonesty, cowardice, and condescension, in a neatly morally superior package.

 

[Neo C.]

Internet mob is scary. It's easy to call other people making bad jokes stupid, but everyone could be target by a mob just by accident. And you don't even need to be online! Just walking down a street and doing something (unintentionally and without ill thoughts) could be caught by a phone cam, and at worst you could lose your whole existence because the video goes viral.