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[TTUVAPOR]

Yes, we need to get rid of ISIS, but we shouldn't make more enemies by completely trashing Islam. If Obama came out and said "Religion and Islam are horrible!" that would just lead to more people justifying and becoming extremists.

If Obama came out and said "Islam Extremists are horrible!", then we've got a different ball game.

You're not getting it dude. You know we have Christian extremists in our world today? We even have satanists in our world today...you really do not see them doing sacrifices to satan....yet we have an extremist group killing humans because they don't believe in their religion.

there's a problem here...lets delete it.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I just love this mechanism of distortion: ISIS has one interpretation while moderates have another, who knows which one is right *winkwink

Such folks always put Daesh view on equal footing as moderate view and Daesh view is always cheerleader as legitimate just like Obama said people do which emboldens Daesh and makes moderates look like side characters instead of helping push moderate view

Let's put all interpretation and who is right and who is wrong. Which interpretation would you rather have surviving when you know religion in one form or another is here to stay, Daesh view or Moderate view considering such people see them equally in terms of credible lets play devils advocate and pose the question that if you want Moderate view to be the surviving view, who in their right mind would respond to a moderate who says their islam is peaceful by saying well Daesh is not and they are as credible as you, why carry the Daesh flag

Most muslims and sane non muslims moderates can cut right thought the nuanced crap and know such a view does not want moderate view to exist among them either. They want to use Daesh view as a means to eliminate not only Daesh view (rightfully) but also Moderate view (wrongfully)

 

[Seventy70]

i disagree with the pres., it most definitely is responsible for terrorism.

If he came out and said that it's responsible for terrorism, you would get tons of people who would then look at ISIS and say, "You know what? Maybe these guys are on OUR side." Stating facts isn't going to fix anything just because they are facts.

But by what you're saying these type of people would be insane anyway...so I don't think it matters either way if Obama says Islam is "evil" or not when most of these people are going to see what ISIS does almost daily now and think it's cool to join them.

I don't think insane is the right word. We all stand up for what we think is right. Humans disagree all the time, but when you threaten their belief, they will become militant.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Neither actually, but I still believe in your right to have your view.

Too bad you have to chose as islam is here to stay whether you like it or not

 

[Dugna]

If he came out and said that it's responsible for terrorism, you would get tons of people who would then look at ISIS and say, "You know what? Maybe these guys are on OUR side." Stating facts isn't going to fix anything just because they are facts.

But then those people would have hated western civilization anyway, and yes stating the truth does help. It helps the world progress past a time of still thinking everything in the universe is explained by a single book.

 

[Dugna]

I don't think insane is the right word. We all stand up for what we think is right. Humans disagree all the time, but when you threaten their belief, they will become militant.

That still makes them unstable, if you can't stand alittle threat to your belief and that said "threat" causes you to try to kill others around you. Your belief isn't really peaceful anymore is it?

 

[Byakuya769]

Interesting how several posters oddly absent from a thread about an anti-theist nut killing three innocent people are all up in this thread criticizing Obama for stating the obvious...

 

[Seventy70]

But then those people would have hated western civilization anyway, and yes stating the truth does help. It helps the world progress past a time of still thinking everything in the universe is explained by a single book.

Those people would have been living in western civilization just fine, but when you challenge them, pride gets in the way and they feel the need to defend themselves. It's basic human behavior. People usually put their "beliefs" on low priority, but as soon as they are challenged, they will feel the need to defend it and it will move up to priority #1.

That still makes them unstable, if you can't stand alittle threat to your belief and that said "threat" causes you to try to kill others around you. Your belief isn't really peaceful anymore is it?

It's not peaceful and maybe it was never peaceful, but at one point the people were peaceful. They are unstable? We can't do anything about that.

 

[Maninthemirror]

But it's sort of a no true scotsmans stance. Well they are muslims but not beliefs x y and z. Those aren't muslim beliefs. Where do you stand on all that Caliphates? Are those all corruptions of the umma? Clearly they were very political and indulged themselves in conquests of war. It's not surprising that humans would found empires and engage in warred conflict, but throughout the Islamic world the Caliphates represented very much the will of God. Are Ismaili shi'ites not true muslims because their imams claim esoteric knowledge? It's not unlike the pope.

All throughout Islamic history, literally from the death of Muhammad on, the umma has been divided. Has been squabbling over what is the true lineage of Islam. Constructing different hadiths. This is not unique to Islam as a religion. But where do you proclaim one set of beliefs is any truer than the rest. If it's so clear to you why is it not clear to others?

Are you similar to non-denominational christians of modern times that attempt to reject all christian history except that which is biblically codified?

Understand I'm not really posing this in reference to the topic you were responding to but as a tangent on how we think about these people and the qualities they include in their faith.

Any muslim follows his faith faithfully if they abide by building the moral characters of how a muslim should be in their truth, dealing with believers and disbelievers, justice and overall way of life. 99/100 times Daesh members fail that character test and realistically 70/100 times a muslim person non violent person passes the test

 

[Apt101]

It's not the sole contributor but it's pretty fucking culpable.

 

[Dugna]

Any muslim follows his faith faithfully if they abide by building the moral characters of how a muslim should be in their truth, dealing with believers and disbelievers, justice and overall way of life. 99/100 times Daesh members fail that character test and realistically 70/100 times a muslim person non violent person passes the test

and that test is your interpretation of your religion, again this all rests on your interpretation neither one is the "true" version at all. The only reason people hate ISIS's version more is because they're killing people.

 

[King Tubby]

The argument can be said for any ideology. That includes a disbelief in God.

Religion takes it to a different level when you have a firm belief you will receive some eternal reward in the afterlife for terrible actions taken in this one. It's these kinds of beliefs that can lead one to logically justify heinous atrocities, like how colonization and slavery was justified as civilizing and Christianizing lost savages.

Too bad you have to chose as islam is here to stay whether you like it or not

Obviously the moderate view is vastly preferable, but ideally we would have neither. It is not like the moderate view of any religion is free of the shackles of centuries-long superstition, irrationality, and bigotry. The only "positive" thing I could say about terrorist Christian or Islamic or whatever extremists is that they do not shuffle the troubling elements of their religion to the side and pretend they don't exist, but put them in full view for everyone to see and criticize.

 

[Maninthemirror]

and that test is your interpretation of your religion, again this all rests on your interpretation neither one is the "true" version at all. The only reason people hate ISIS's version more is because they're killing people.

As I said your constant words like that is your interpretation not Daesh intepretation leads me to question your intention why constantly put my view in doubt and then present Daesh view. Anyone can see you are downplaying moderate view on purpose to prop up Daesh view. Anyone who does that is trying to push the Daesh view forward rather than moderate view in terms of legitimacy

Why the consistent downplaying of moderate view. I wonder why

 

[HiredN00bs]

Too bad you have to chose as islam is here to stay whether you like it or not

I agree, the days when it and all other religions are only discussed within the context of history and mythology can't come soon enough.

Furthermore, I think it's important to point out that there is a great deal of interpretation involved among proponents of religious texts. That is why ideas themselves must withstand their own scrutiny. Even within sects and subsects, individuals form their own unique conceptions of gods and providence.

 

[aliengmr]

It's not about framing the issue, it's about accuracy. We can't hope to defeat something if we don't even know what it is we're fighting. At least by acknowledging that what we're fighting is radical, violent Islam we can then gain a better understanding of how to defeat this evil.

Its all about framing. We know we are fighting extremism, that's been demonstrated clearly by ISIS themselves.

The problem is reinforcing the notion we are at war with Islam and ISIS being able to use that to their advantage to gain support from the disaffected people in the Middle East. We can sit back and discern the differences, we can look at all the subtle nuances of the situation, but for the people who get fucked over by their own leaders, told to blame the West for their lot in life, and/or live under threat of drone strikes every minute, how Obama frames the issue regarding the most important thing, their faith, is a big deal.

Then you have wack jobs in the states that think every brown, vaguely Middle Eastern looking, person is a damn terrorist.

Obama hasn't done everything right (drones), but he is certainly right in not piling it on.

ISIS wants this to be about Islam. There's no point in helping them do that.

 

[Tesseract]

As I said your constant words like that is your interpretation not Daesh intepretation leads me to question your intention why constantly put my view in doubt and then present Daesh view. Anyone can see you are downplaying moderate view on purpose to prop up Daesh view. Anyone who does that is trying to push the Daesh view forward rather than moderate view in terms of legitimacy

Why the consistent downplaying of moderate view. I wonder why

that's pretty ridiculous, mate

 

[Maninthemirror]

Yes as someone said Daesh and Al Qaeda want this to be about Islam. Whose with them and who is with the moderates who say Daesh are following a distorted faith. Who will people agree with on this statement, Radicalists or moderates

 

[HiredN00bs]

Yes as someone said Daesh and Al Qaeda want this to be about Islam. Whose with them and who is with the moderates ?

We have no need to claim allegiance, but I will always ally with people of peace against people of violence.

 

[Dugna]

As I said your constant words like that is your interpretation not Daesh intepretation leads me to question your intention why constantly put my view in doubt and then present Daesh view. Anyone can see you are downplaying moderate view on purpose to prop up Daesh view. Anyone who does that is trying to push the Daesh view forward rather than moderate view in terms of legitimacy

Why the consistent downplaying of moderate view. I wonder why

So by saying that ISIS's interpretation isn't a wrong one, that somehow makes your interpretation worse? If acknowledging that hurts the moderates interpretation then the religion itself deserves to fade away.

 

[Seventy70]

Whether or not you think religion is stupid, attacking it is going to do no good. I think subconsciously over time, people begin to erase religion on their own. As time goes on, their beliefs become more relaxed, but if you attack them, they will re surge stronger than ever. It's like how scratching an itch just makes it worse.

 

[MIMIC]

Well of course it's not responsible. You can do practically anything....in the name of anything.

Someone's perverted sense of an idea does not make that idea responsible.

 

[Maninthemirror]

So by saying that ISIS's interpretation isn't a wrong one, that somehow makes your interpretation worse? If acknowledging that hurts the moderates interpretation then the religion itself deserves to fade away.

No im presenting from view of western society where people are brainwashed into thinking Daesh is on equal footing as moderates. I am questioning the intention of why the moderate view is consistently downplayed as opposed to Daesh view. Legitimizing Daesh is a very bad idea

We have no need to claim allegiance, but I will always ally with people of peace against people of violence.

Then are you willing to accept Daesh are liars ?

 

[Dugna]

Whether or not you think religion is stupid, attacking it is going to do no good. I think subconsciously over time, people begin to erase religion on their own. As time goes on, their beliefs become more relaxed, but if you attack them, they will re surge stronger than ever. It's like how scratching an itch just makes it worse.

Then letting people see how irrational said religious followers are is the cream for the itch to soothe it and let it heal and disappear completely. Instead of having that itch exist for the rest of their lives bothering them everyday.

 

[Feep]

Well of course it's not responsible. You can do practically anything....in the name of anything.

Someone's perverted sense of an idea does not make that idea responsible.

Is it perverted? Direct readings of that text are pretty horrific.

I wonder how many people saying things like "people will find any reason to justify terrorism" have any actual evidence backing that statement up.

 

[Seventy70]

Then letting people see how irrational said religious followers are is the cream for the itch to soothe it and let it heal and disappear completely. Instead of having that itch exist for the rest of their lives bothering them everyday.

The "people" and "religious followers" are the same thing in your example. If you don't scratch an itch, it eventually just goes away, but if you scratch it, it spreads and becomes even worse.

 

[injurai]

Any muslim follows his faith faithfully if they abide by building the moral characters of how a muslim should be in their truth, dealing with believers and disbelievers, justice and overall way of life. 99/100 times Daesh members fail that character test and realistically 70/100 times a muslim person non violent person passes the test

Yeah that's certainly fair. I think people usually want a more substantial answer but that is fair. Without judging Islam by it's extremes (which you wouldn't even say they are) people still take grievances some of it's faiths. I would certainly say that the instability in the middle east flavors Islamic culture to outsiders. Unfairly so. It's all too easy to look at the extremes which can be seen as low hanging fruit in attempts to write of all of Islam or Religion, depending on your scope and agenda. I have to catch myself though before I start giving apologist leeway because it's hard not attribute the subjugation of woman with ayahs and matn.

Yeah, I think I can agree with you that much of the ridicule is misdirected. But perhaps not entirely without merit in terms of moderate Islam itself. But is that the religious or cultural developments? I certainly believe that all religions are attempts to find a better world, and capable in part reform. Certainly many muslims are already there and have been there.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

Hate for faith has reached such a point that the once hated become the haters and I won't be surprised if once the opressed by fundamentalists become the opressors in decades to come. I hope I don't live to see it happening

The idea of 'faith' is the furthest thing from a virtue, believing in something despite insufficient evidence or contrary to evidence has led to human suffering throughout history.Ridiculous Ideas can and should be disputed/argued against/mocked, we should all be free to challenge ideas. The difference is I would never stop you from having these ideas with threats or actions that promote violence, I don't think I'd be afforded the same right in many places where religions go unchallenged.

 

[jeenaudx]

I still fail to this day to understand the point of religion's existence

 

[triplestation]

obama is wrong

the only way you can stop evil once and for all is if you destroy religion

murder rates will totally plummet if you do this and nobody will ever seek power ever again

 

[Seventy70]

I still fail to this day to understand the point of religion's existence

I still fail to understand the point of anything's existence

 

[Dugna]

No im presenting from view of western society where people are brainwashed into thinking Daesh is on equal footing as moderates. I am questioning the intention of why the moderate view is consistently downplayed as opposed to Daesh view. Legitimizing Daesh is a very bad idea

So by "brainwashed" you mean able to tell that a religion and ideology can have bad and good sides? If so then sure I love being "brainwashed" whatever sect of Islam created ISIS is still Islam no matter how much you want to deny it. It's like how Christians deny WBC being christian yet nobody takes that excuse seriously.

Now like people have told you over and over that doesn't make them better then your interpretation it's just saying for you to acknowledge it is part of Islam.

 

[Kinvara]

Again that's your interpretation on the book/religion itself, and ISIS have their interpretation neither is the more "true" interpretation. Only reason people don't hate the moderates as much is because their interpretation isn't killing people by the hundreds of thousands.

Except people aren't making that distinction. So mosques being vandalized and innocent Muslims are getting targeted.

Your religious beliefs have nothing to do with whether or not you're a moral human being.

Atheists can be just as sexist, racist, homophobic etc. as conservative religious zealots- they merely use a different justification for their hate.

Interesting how several posters oddly absent from a thread about an anti-theist nut killing three innocent people are all up in this thread criticizing Obama for stating the obvious...

Precisely.

 

[RustyNails]

Interesting how several posters oddly absent from a thread about an anti-theist nut killing three innocent people are all up in this thread criticizing Obama for stating the obvious...

It's a strange marriage of liberals and fox news.

 

[injurai]

I still fail to this day to understand the point of religion's existence

Well if you're atheist I think there should be a pretty solid answer in terms of human development and evolution. How understanding is bootstrapped from interaction through our environment and passing upon concepts through generation.

I still fail to understand the point of anything's existence

Well that's the billion dollar question isn't it.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Yeah that's certainly fair. I think people usually want a more substantial answer but that is fair. Without judging Islam by it's extremes (which you wouldn't even say they are) people still take grievances some of it's faiths. I would certainly say that the instability in the middle east flavors Islamic culture to outsiders. Unfairly so. It's all too easy to look at the extremes which can be seen as low hanging fruit in attempts to write of all of Islam or Religion, depending on your scope and agenda. I have to catch myself though before I start giving apologist leeway because it's hard not attribute the subjugation of woman with ayahs and matn.

Yeah, I think I can agree with you that much of the ridicule is misdirected. But perhaps not entirely without merit in terms of moderate Islam itself. But is that the religious or cultural developments? I certainly believe that all religions are attempts to find a better world, and capable in part reform. Certainly many muslims are already there and have been there.

What people should do muslims and non muslims is arm themselves with the knowledge of history and the faith itself and fight the ideological battle to remove the distortion of faith so that 1 Daesh member who is susceptible to seeing the light can repent and go to jail and those who won't will die rightfully in battle. You don't need to accept the faith by studying it but study the faith through proper guidance yourself to see how a moderate muslim can say that Daesh view is distorted. Learn what they distort and and I think Radicalism In islam will come down significantly, not eliminiated and there are inherently people who are evil but it would help in removing the new people becoming Daesh members and squeeze their view into virtual non existence

 

[Dugna]

The "people" and "religious followers" are the same thing in your example. If you don't scratch an itch, it eventually just goes away, but if you scratch it, it spreads and becomes even worse.

Actually they aren't the "people" would be the moderates and the "religious followers" would be the crazies. Also I get an itch in the same spot everyday even if I ignore it, I put some medicine on it and I feel better.

 

[jeenaudx]

I still fail to understand the point of anything's existence

I mean why do people need someone to tell them what to think, why can't they think for themselves.

 

[leakey]

Obama spitting dat REALigion. Blaming religion for chickenshit extremist murderers is about as legit as blaming Halo for somebody flying off the handle and killing someone over a game of Call of Duty.

 

[Dugna]

I mean why do people need someone to tell them what to think, why can't they think for themselves.

Many people are scared of the unknown, which is mostly death. So they need some explanation as to what will happen when they die. I don't find fear of death to be wrong what so ever, but your fear of the unknown shouldn't lead to other people dying.

 

[Sean*O]

It's not the sole contributor but it's pretty fucking culpable.

Correct. Just ask any of the many terrorist nuts who always kill in the name of their god and their god's laws. You have to wonder what else would push those people to commit acts of terror absent religion. How else could they be manipulated en masse. Doesn't mean religion is the cause by any means but it's proven to be the perfect tool time and again.

 

[CHusson91]

These people are radical Islamists. I'll have to respectfully disagree with the President on this one.

 

[reckless]

It definitely helps people justify terrorism and the lure of perceived rewards in the afterlife seem like it would convince people that otherwise wouldn't.

 

[SlipperyMoose]

Disagreed. Religion is part of the problem.

Yeah I have to agree. Although I do think it is smart to repeat this is not a war on Islam because that was used to fuel recruits for insurgents during the Bush administration.

 

[Two Words]

Religion is just a very powerful tool for terrorism. It's a gun. Guns are excellent for killing people. But when people get killed, you shouldn't hold the gun responsible, you should hold the gunman responsible. But at the same time, it is foolish to ignore the potential danger of guns and religion.

 

[Stinkles]

As I said your constant words like that is your interpretation not Daesh intepretation leads me to question your intention why constantly put my view in doubt and then present Daesh view. Anyone can see you are downplaying moderate view on purpose to prop up Daesh view. Anyone who does that is trying to push the Daesh view forward rather than moderate view in terms of legitimacy

Why the consistent downplaying of moderate view. I wonder why

Well it is like Christianity in that moderate views are the shoulders on which radicals and fundamentalists stand. We see this time and time again in the rhetoric and ill considered opinions on the "Arab street" (an expression I loathe, tbh) and in megachurches not ten miles from where I sit.

 

[superseohyun]

Your religious beliefs have nothing to do with whether or not you're a moral human being.

yes one can have the religious belief that all infidels shall be killed but lets not rush to the conclusion. He can still be a moral human being! Or will you argue that ISIS dont have this kind of religious belief?

also for the love of god atheism is not a religious belief...

 

[beast786]

I know you are an ex muslim but surely you would know if you were educated on islam that 9:29 refers to those few Jews who attacked muslim tribes along with the Quraish and killed muslims and not Jews as a religious community as a whole and 9:30 refers to the concept of idolitary which creeped into Christianty and some jewish sects with the worship of Jesus and Ezra as equally associated with God. 61:9

No where does it mention killing those who harmed no one despite their beliefs and from verse 1 of chapter 9 it repeatedly mentions don't be transgressors. So far there is no proof from these verses if you read them alone without starting from 9:1 that there is anywhere where muslims are told to kill christians and Jews for being christians and Jews.

I can understand now why you left your faith if you grew up in an area where this was taught to you without self education and proper guidance . I would have left islam if I didn't self educate and proper guidancetoo with all the distortions done by men

I know you are fundamentalist Muslim so I am not surprised by your answer. But , I also understand the reason for that diesase as you are surrounded by people all they do is preach these fundamentalist view. Especially since I was once in your shoes.

But, I do have hope . As we get more into open Conversations without blocked from religious propaganda that surrounds your every second of your life.

As per context. 1st at least you accept the quotes, your only explanation is on first quote that it was against jews who transgress against Muslim. So now we have a way to solve a problem when one makes a case that group is responsible for killing. Mohammad directly attack caravans that did no attack to Muslim . so please spare me .

The quote are exactly what it says. Isis and other say the people are enemy. If usa comes in America flag it represent all of America not just army. That's all they have to say to cause terrorism.

2nd quote can't be more obvious what Muhammad wants you to think of Jews/Christans and Allah solution for them.

I hope one day you will be out of this hideous brain washing that you been living under. Because you are honestly sound like a real caring and nice guy.

 

[injurai]

What people should do muslims and non muslims is arm themselves with the knowledge of history and the faith itself and fight the ideological battle to remove the distortion of faith so that 1 Daesh member who is susceptible to seeing the light can repent and go to jail and those who won't will die rightfully in battle. You don't need to accept the faith by studying it but study the faith through proper guidance yourself to see how a moderate muslim can say that Daesh view is distorted. Learn what they distort and and I think Radicalism In islam will come down significantly, not eliminiated and there are inherently people who are evil but it would help in removing the new people becoming Daesh members and squeeze their view into virtual non existence

Cool, I can very much agree with this. I know we differ in our personal beliefs, but I really enjoy your contributions and outlook because we are always ignorant to more things than we are savvy to. I think the best stance is always the pragmatic one, unless you concern yourself with ego and taking polemic debate to the extremes. It does very little to figure out solutions to problems. Often times the problems can't directly be handled and then you wonder if that is where the problems actually lie or are they more emergent in nature.

 

[MIMIC]

Is it perverted? Direct readings of that text are pretty horrific.

I wonder how many people saying things like "people will find any reason to justify terrorism" have any actual evidence backing that statement up.

Yes. Unless the pastors, ministers, etc. are telling followers to go out and behead/maim individuals in the name of God/Allah/Muhammad, it's a perverted interpretation of whatever text you are referring to, since they're the experts on it. In America, inciting or promoting violence is illegal....and if religion were inciting violence, it definitely wouldn't be legal to teach it.

Additionally, how many are killing in the name of their religion versus the ones that aren't? Are the ones using religion as a peaceful guide to life not reading the verses correctly or something?

To me, this is like blaming violent behavior on video games. No, it's not the video game's fault. You just need help.

 

[0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55]

guns don't kill people

Nailed it.

Just to be clear, I interpreted sarcasm... As in, guns DO kill people, just like god-wizard beliefs.