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[Fess]

Ah yes. The aggressive pushing of a user selectable toggle in the character creator section of an RPG

I'm talking about western games in general there, if they don't like the pushback then don't push it in the first place. A social space today bring people together from all over the world, it's a battle field of culture differences, here as well. And there will be clashes about almost everything and certainly about things were there is a clash even within the same country.

Regarding Avowed we'll see how far it goes, I'm sure internet will kindly inform us all about all of it.

 

[simpatico]

I'm just tired of the whole thing. No it's not going away either. Just imagine the next showing of naughty dogs game. It doesn't matter what the actual game is, the entire focus will be on the looks of the character! Look at this game Avowed. The whole focus is now pronouns omg the world is ending! Why does the entire discussion narrow into only that one aspect? I simply don't buy the game and leave it that. The extremes on both sides are as bad as eachother, is what im trying to say.

I understand. I really do, but this is how it got this far. One side was pushing and the other didn't want to roll around in that mud. I watched the same thing happen to my old high school that my kids go to now. Regular people don't want to become teachers or go to every PTA meeing. No one wants to point out obvious subversiveness in otherwise great games like RDR2 and be "that guy". That just allowed the crazys to make unfettered progress for the last 25 years. We don't have the luxury of being able to sit it out imo. It's not only video games. The same hedonistic demiurge is consuming most aspects of western life.

If you go back and read my posts in this thread, I actually think the pronouns are the least of Avowed's troubles. Almost to the point that the publishers aren't quite sure how to assess what went wrong with failed games. But I assure you, Outlaws, DAVG and Suicide Squad would have been gutter trash even without the woke aspects in the story. For most of my gaming life, if I was asked my favorite devs, Obsidian would be mentioned on the short list.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Avowed is a gift that just keeps on giving lol.

 

[BlakeofT]

I think I'm out of the loop. Is the controversy the pronoun thing or is there more to it?

 

[laynelane]

I understand. I really do, but this is how it got this far. One side was pushing and the other didn't want to roll around in that mud. I watched the same thing happen to my old high school that my kids go to now. Regular people don't want to become teachers or go to every PTA meeing. No one wants to point out obvious subversiveness in otherwise great games like RDR2 and be "that guy". That just allowed the crazys to make unfettered progress for the last 25 years. We don't have the luxury of being able to sit it out imo. It's not only video games. The same hedonistic demiurge is consuming most aspects of western life.

If you go back and read my posts in this thread, I actually think the pronouns are the least of Avowed's troubles. Almost to the point that the publishers aren't quite sure how to assess what went wrong with failed games. But I assure you, Outlaws, DAVG and Suicide Squad would have been gutter trash even without the woke aspects in the story. For most of my gaming life, if I was asked my favorite devs, Obsidian would be mentioned on the short list.

I think a big part of this issue is that most people are naturally tolerant. That was majorly taken advantage of and now there's a major push back - and it's not just occurring in games.

With gaming, though, there were other issues at hand too - being told games were not diverse until now when they always have been (there's a lot of lies like this), the complicity of gaming media to uplift 'woke' games above others (thereby misleading the public), the anti-gamer attitude from many developers and media (anti-white, anti-male, etc.), franchise with long histories being contorted and ultimately made worse to fit the developer's message, being labeled as any number of 'ist' terms for simply objecting, etc.

This has been ongoing for a long time and people simply have no trust left to give. It's why there's so much suspicion and anger around these topics too and why even a whiff of DEI in a game has some up in arms. People get mad about the so-called anti-woke, but all of us accepted this stuff for a long time before it came to what it is now. Basically, it says a lot about how bad things have got that this many people are now collectively saying: "no more".

 

[TheGodfather07]

They only have themselves to blame.

Would people have been more accepting if she wasn't bald though? Or would it have shifted to the fact the game has a black female protagonist? That's my point. There's extremists on both sides. Ghost of yotei is a good example. People were complaining that's its woke just because the main character is a female. The term is now being thrown around for anything. I'm not saying these games won't be shoving political agendas down our throats but we haven't seen enough of the games to make such a claim yet.

 

[Nickolaidas]

I think devs just have to accept that if they push progressive values too far it will come back and bite them in the ass.

Is adding a single gay NPC in your game = taking progressive values too far?

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

Would people have been more accepting if she wasn't bald though? Or would it have shifted to the fact the game has a black female protagonist? That's my point. There's extremists on both sides. Ghost of yotei is a good example. People were complaining that's its woke just because the main character is a female. The term is now being thrown around for anything. I'm not saying these games won't be shoving political agendas down our throats but we haven't seen enough of the games to make such a claim yet.

Again, this wouldn't be happening without all the transgressions in turbo mode over the past 10 years.

They have literally speed run social rejection.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

I think I'm out of the loop. Is the controversy the pronoun thing or is there more to it?

 

[Ozriel]

I almost wish the pronoun stuff wasn't a part of the critique against Avowed. I think you can trash it based simply on the combat, aesthetic design and the conversational tone we've seen. It almost gives devs a pass on quality.

If you go back and read my posts in this thread, I actually think the pronouns are the least of Avowed's troubles. Almost to the point that the publishers aren't quite sure how to assess what went wrong with failed games. But I assure you, Outlaws, DAVG and Suicide Squad would have been gutter trash even without the woke aspects in the story. For most of my gaming life, if I was asked my favorite devs, Obsidian would be mentioned on the short list.

Really? Because the previews for Avowed were almost universally positive. People who've played it came away impressed. And yet, here you are, riding on the pronoun stuff to insist the game is shit.

Odd choice of words in your last sentence. With so much money on the line when these games are developed and launched I'm wondering how it's even remotely rational, when making a business decision, to include this stuff anymore. What exactly is the business rationale?

"What's the business rationale in putting optional toggles for pronouns?"

"What's the business rationale for making the protagonist black?"

"What's the business rationale for making the lead female strong and competent?"

"What's the business rationale for not making the lead female look like a supermodel, even though she's supposed to be a hard-bitten mercenary with years of field work?"

There is room for critique when themes are pushed at the player in a heavy handed fashion. But when people start losing their shit over passive and inoffensive stuff, then it's all downhill from there.

 

[Hudo]

And my point was - is budget really an issue, or is there a management problem? Based on raising 4x the amount they "thought" they could develop the game with, I think it's likely the latter.

Regardless, I would also like to see PoE III.

I dunno. I am just repeating what Sawyer was saying. And he probably knows more about what the issues were than either of us...

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

I dunno. I am just repeating what Sawyer was saying. And he probably knows more about what the issues were than either of us...

So if your associate asked for 1 million dollars to accomplish a task, but received 4x that amount and said there were financial difficulties, would you believe that the assessment is accurate then? I understand, but just from these variables, it seems something is wrong with the picture.

 

[Hudo]

So if your associate asked for 1 million dollars to accomplish a task, but received 4x that amount and said there were financial difficulties, would you believe that the assessment is accurate then? I understand, but just from these variables, it seems something is wrong with the picture.

Given that the associate is an experienced dev and delivered products before and has more knowledge about managing projects like that, yes. I would give him the benefit of the doubt. And since no one else contradicted his statements he made over the years, it's probably more truth than lie. But I don't know how hard Urquhart interfered since he, for obvious reasons, isn't talked about a lot.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

Given that the associate is an experienced dev and delivered products before and has more knowledge about managing projects like that, yes. I would give him the benefit of the doubt. And since no one else contradicted his statements he made over the years, it's probably more truth than lie. But I don't know how hard Urquhart interfered since he, for obvious reasons, isn't talked about a lot.

Sounds more like to me they completely misunderstood the finances and were incorrect by a large margin in their initial request for capital if 4x the amount couldn't get it done correctly. But he's a game dev, so I guess he knows.

 

[Hudo]

Sounds more like to me they completely misunderstood the finances and were incorrect by a large margin in their initial request for capital if 4x the amount couldn't get it done correctly. But he's a game dev, so I guess he knows.

I don't get what position you're taking or trying to argue about. My statement was just that I would love to see PoE3 with a bigger budget. Sawyer said that he would like to have more money, which is not an outrageous request since the standards for what a CRPG is nowadays is bigger than when PoE1 or PoE2 dropped. So it's understandable that it'll require a bigger budget. Which is also what he said. He also said that they had to cut some corners in PoE2 for time/budget reasons as well, mainly when he talked about the mechanics involving the player ship. And it shows that these parts are undercooked.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

I don't get what position you're taking or trying to argue about. My statement was just that I would love to see PoE3 with a bigger budget. Sawyer said that he would like to have more money, which is not an outrageous request since the standards for what a CRPG is nowadays is bigger than when PoE1 or PoE2 dropped. So it's understandable that it'll require a bigger budget. Which is also what he said. He also said that they had to cut some corners in PoE2 for time/budget reasons as well, mainly when he talked about the mechanics involving the player ship. And it shows that these parts are undercooked.

I can agree with all of what you've said. Perhaps I have gone on some tangent of my own making.

 

[Bert Big Balls]

Racist art director trying to hide from his past

Holy fucking brainwashed

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

Holy fucking brainwashed

And people wonder why things are going the way they are now. Facepalm.

 

[bighugeguns]

Holy fucking brainwashed

Am I a dumbass for feeling bad for the dude? He's very fucked.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Am I a dumbass for feeling bad for the dude? He's very fucked.

Why have sympathy for a racist?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I think I'm out of the loop. Is the controversy the pronoun thing or is there more to it?

Pretty much. Sprinkle in some baseless claims of racism, wokenessittyness, I think there was a rumor Sweet Baby was involved in the game? Once the grift starts, the sheep move very fast.

 

[bighugeguns]

Why have sympathy for a racist?

It's possible to fall into bad spirals on the internet, those are dark places to be in mentally, I can sympathize to a degree.

 

[Embearded]

Racist art director trying to hide from his past

Dude needs to see a psychiatrist asap.
Also, i hope the company has stopped using him for interviews.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

It's possible to fall into bad spirals on the internet, those are dark places to be in mentally, I can sympathize to a degree.

I'm not sure how that post can be in any way justified, though..

 

[bighugeguns]

I'm not sure how that post can be in any way justified, though..

Fair enough, I feel the Devil wants me to hate him, but me and the Devil have our creative differences.

 

[simpatico]

Really? Because the previews for Avowed were almost universally positive. People who've played it came away impressed. And yet, here you are, riding on the pronoun stuff to insist the game is shit.

I only recall positive impressions from industry people with one dozen daily prescription meds and alpha-consumer gamers who will buy and play anything with nice puddles.



Are we talking about the same game?

 

[adamsapple]

I only recall positive impressions from industry people with one dozen daily prescription meds and alpha-consumer gamers who will buy and play anything with nice puddles.

Most outlets and streamers that played the game at Gamescom near the end of '24 were pretty positive, that's the latest time the game's been shown.

Hands-On: Avowed feels like Obsidian’s take on Elder Scrolls and we can’t wait to play more | VGC

Obisidian’s next RPG borrows from plenty of big hitters, but we’re very keen to get back to it…

www.videogameschronicle.com

Avowed is a jack-of-all-trades action RPG with a rare attention for the little details

In rare moments Avowed reminds me of an immersive sim, but it stops short of the simulation of games like Deus Ex.

www.pcgamer.com

Avowed Is Full Of Discoveries And The Freedom To Find Them--Or Not

Playing the first two hours of Avowed emphasizes how much there is to see and do in the Living Lands, and how much freedom you'll have in making your way through them.

www.gamespot.com

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

It looks like a return to form for Obsidian. Hype.

 

[Ozriel]

Most outlets and streamers that played the game at Gamescom near the end of '24 were pretty positive, that's the latest time the game's been shown.

Hands-On: Avowed feels like Obsidian’s take on Elder Scrolls and we can’t wait to play more | VGC

Obisidian’s next RPG borrows from plenty of big hitters, but we’re very keen to get back to it…

www.videogameschronicle.com

Avowed is a jack-of-all-trades action RPG with a rare attention for the little details

In rare moments Avowed reminds me of an immersive sim, but it stops short of the simulation of games like Deus Ex.

www.pcgamer.com

Avowed Is Full Of Discoveries And The Freedom To Find Them--Or Not

Playing the first two hours of Avowed emphasizes how much there is to see and do in the Living Lands, and how much freedom you'll have in making your way through them.

www.gamespot.com

Oh, he knows all this. He was active in the 'Avowed Previews' thread and that has a ton of previews not just from traditional gaming media, but lots of YouTubers.

 

[Alexios]

It looks like a return to form for Obsidian. Hype.

Plus with Bethesda going to shit (and not having games of this sort for ages) they may find more of an audience with this as the non remake Skyrim-like and Outer Worlds 2 as the Fallout (or Starfield-but-good)-like etc., hope they are good games for me before anything of course, I don't play sales.

 

[samoilaaa]

I'm just tired of the whole thing. No it's not going away either. Just imagine the next showing of naughty dogs game. It doesn't matter what the actual game is, the entire focus will be on the looks of the character! Look at this game Avowed. The whole focus is now pronouns omg the world is ending! Why does the entire discussion narrow into only that one aspect? I simply don't buy the game and leave it that. The extremes on both sides are as bad as eachother, is what im trying to say.

if i have to read about how great is adding pronouns , diversity , lgbtq representation then you are gonna have to read hate messages aswell

 

[Fess]

Is adding a single gay NPC in your game = taking progressive values too far?

In 2025? A nobody side character being gay shouldn't break the internet. But the blood is already in the water. I wouldn't do it.
In the end it depends on how it's done and what game it is and the audience playing it. At the time Bill in TLOU was seen as a great lbtq character. Not sure how that would fly today.

 

[simpatico]

Most outlets and streamers that played the game at Gamescom near the end of '24 were pretty positive, that's the latest time the game's been shown.

Obsidian used to get in trouble by biting off more than they can chew. Alpha Protocol, New Vegas etc. Pushing the limits of storytelling and gameplay. This and Outer Worlds are like the polar opposite of that philosophy. Completely derivative and safe. Avowed is clearly a Skyrim dupe, but instead of trying to go even bigger and deeper, they just make smaller and synthetic feeling. My time with Outer Worlds is informing how I interpret what I see in those trailers.

 

[AMSCD]

That's terrible, fuck Steam and Gaben. I of course knew developers didn't have to post or participate, and could moderate based on a presumed global Steam TOS/guideline, but have never come across a game without a forum. I thought it was baked into Steam whereby you published a game, the forum was autocreated with the store page. Again, fuck Steam and Gaben.

You get triggered pretty easily eh?

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Racist art director trying to hide from his past

As a black man, dudes like this just sicken and irritate me in equal measure.

Like, if I was as aspiring videogame artist:

1. Why does this motherfucker think I can't get a role based purely on my merit as an artist? --- The implication of his assumption being he doesn't think I'd be as good as him.....
2. The "we got too many crusty white dudes in this field" expresses a level of self-hatred I can only but cringe at. It's both unhinged and unhealthy and would actually scare me away from his studio as I would not want to work with people like this; i.e. people who are both so obsessed with skin color (as if that matters more than my ability as an artist) as well as having such a hatred and prejudice against people of his own race for no other reason than their skin color (aka racism essentially).
3. The "please let me help you replace me one day" is the worst bit. It both smacks of arrogance and condescension. I'm not an artist in the videogame industry, but if I was, I would have busted my ass to be one of the best... meaning it would be fucking insulting to consider me needing his or anyone else's help to replace him. I would replace him anyway, in part because he and folks of his ideology are on their way out because of their continued failures in the industry, and also because I would have just busted my ass at my profession to have the skills to simply outshine him anyway.

In my current career as an industrial engineer, I'm outshining motherfuckers 20 and 30 yrs my senior in the industry... because I have talent and I work damn hard. I don't want nor need no handouts and especially not from racist self-flagellating weirdos like him. All people like him are doing is making the working environment for people like me harder. I've seen firsthand the real-world implications of shit like this; i.e. engendering preconceptions among my peers that I'm only in the position I'm in currently because DEI lowered the standards. That's shit that takes real effort on my part to change people's minds on, and it's not something I asked for. This prick is hurting the very people he thinks he's helping, and the reality is at the core he doesn't really care about the minorities he's claiming to champion for at all. It's just virtue signalling to boost his own narcissistic ego.

 

[TheGodfather07]

And people wonder why things are going the way they are now. Facepalm.

Who the hell is putting these guys in charge of these games? It seems like every other studio is infested with these types of people now. Its almost like the industry has been infiltrated from the outside or somebody is controlling and mandating all this.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Who the hell is putting these guys in charge of these games? It seems like every other studio is infested with these types of people now. Its almost like the industry has been infiltrated from the outside or somebody is controlling and mandating all this.

It begins and ends with HR departments. The radical left activist lunacy started in the humanities at universities and colleges where these wackos captured the faculties in the US. So, it stands to reason the HR departments will be absolutely suffuse with these woke activist nutters.

You consider that HR are primarily the gatekeepers of the hiring process, responsible for filling roles and with these nut job activists in full control of said hiring process... well... now it's starting to become abundantly clear how game studios and entire multiple tens of thousands strong employee media companies like Disney went full woke retard virtually overnight.

 

[sendit]

lol

 

[laynelane]

In 2025? A nobody side character being gay shouldn't break the internet. But the blood is already in the water. I wouldn't do it.
In the end it depends on how it's done and what game it is and the audience playing it. At the time Bill in TLOU was seen as a great lbtq character. Not sure how that would fly today.

I still think it would be okay today. It was handled in a subtle fashion and was simply a part of his character (not his whole character). It also gave a different perspective once you found the clues and outcome of his partner's fate. It was just well done overall.

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

(In case you didn't know, homosexuality is not an invention of the 80s).

It most certainly IS an invention of the 80's....the 1800's that is (1869....nice) to quote Wikipedia.
Pretty sure the Greeks were clown' round back in those sweet sweet public bath times as well (which means so were the Minoan's).

That pendulum, she likes to swing though. I don't see it as an overreaction by Obsidian, but probably more of a directive from MS to control the "optics".
Sad times when a game cannot use the color purple in it (I know...I am over simplifying the issue but still...goddamn).

 

[CliffBronger]

I had no interest in this game after the garbage the outer worlds.

But after seeing the comments from the pos art director i would keep a low profile if i was him.

 

[Fess]

I still think it would be okay today. It was handled in a subtle fashion and was simply a part of his character (not his whole character). It also gave a different perspective once you found the clues and outcome of his partner's fate. It was just well done overall.

Yeah I agree, probably the best one yet. You had to read between the lines to pick it up, notes were just talking about a partner, not a husband or fiancée or gay lover or whatever else on the nose variation other devs use.
I don't live in an area where people go around openly talking about how they're gay to random people so for me that's realistic, basically there are rumours and that's it.

 

[MiguelItUp]

I don't blame them. From what I've seen over the past few years they've just gotten worse and worse. People hardly even talk about what you'd expect them to talk about. Instead it's a bunch of trolling. Fans can hardly even talk about a game they're interested in anymore without it detailing.

 

[Heisenberg007]

I don't blame them. From what I've seen over the past few years they've just gotten worse and worse. People hardly even talk about what you'd expect them to talk about. Instead it's a bunch of trolling. Fans can hardly even talk about a game they're interested in anymore without it detailing.

The Art Director did want to make people mad with his game. I think it worked.

 

[adamsapple]

I don't blame them. From what I've seen over the past few years they've just gotten worse and worse. People hardly even talk about what you'd expect them to talk about. Instead it's a bunch of trolling. Fans can hardly even talk about a game they're interested in anymore without it detailing.

It was down for an hour and has been back up since yesterday back to its regular glory.

Kacho update the OP plz, people entering the topic now still think it's down.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

It was down for an hour and has been back up since yesterday back to its regular glory.

Kacho update the OP plz, people entering the topic now still think it's down.

Really? Jesus. The hate boner for this game is amazing.

 

[Kacho]

It was down for an hour and has been back up since yesterday back to its regular glory.

Kacho update the OP plz, people entering the topic now still think it's down.

Done.

 

[Bernardougf]

Hey guys, now I'm totally not woke (now that we're losing) and I agree those woke guys can be annoying, though just rarely, but those anti-woke are the real problem, amirite? Don't you just wish they'd shut up and sit down (and let the woke take control of the gaming industry.) Did I mention that I'm totally not a woke gamer by the way.

Fake neutrality ... the oldest trick in the book.

 

[BacklashWave534]

there wouldnt be "non woke' if woke wasnt a thing in the first place. the "non woke" want the same thing you want.

The guy you responded to seemed to be lacking any kind of intellegence in his argument. The reason positive change has happened is because we fought back. None of us love doing this but we need to keep speaking up until these weirdos disappear back to the dark corners of the parents basement forever.

 

[GigaBowser]

woke crud wont play