SouthernDragon
Member
I must be confusing Puddles with someone else.
This may sound rude, but corporations are not obligated to employee a certain number people, and never should have to. We are going to have to start facing the problem that we have more people then we need labor.- Our real unemployment rate remains over 15%. Our corporations have returned to their pre-2008 profit levels, but with far fewer employees on payroll. They have achieved this through a combination of outsourcing, which is no longer confined to blue-collar manufacturing, but which is affecting white-collar departments like IT and accounting, as well as productivity increases, which to a large degree depend on employees working longer hours for the same pay. How many of you know people who work 10-12 hour days, who take their work home with them, and who arent paid for their overtime hours? How many of you know people who are doing the work that 2-3 people used to do? How many of you know people who work at companies that really should hire more people, but wont because they know their overworked employees are just happy to have a job right now?
Drkirby said:This may sound rude, but corporations are not obligated to employee a certain number people, and never should have to. We are going to have to start facing the problem that we have more people then we need labor.
Now, for the unsatisfactory working conditions, it won't get better till people start manning up and changing where they work, or even starting up their own companies. They could also attempt a strike, but I am not to certain of how effective that would be (Mainly from the employee participation aspect)
Destroy the machinesPuddles said:Okay, there's a broad response I'd like to make to this post, but before I do that, let me ask you: what do you think we should do about this problem (having more people than we need labor)?
To be perfectly honest, I have no clue, and I can imagine there are scholars and researcher who are trying to answer those questions. It is what people would call an Open Problem.Puddles said:Okay, there's a broad response I'd like to make to this post, but before I do that, let me ask you: what do you think we should do about this problem (having more people than we need labor)?
Puddles said:Okay, there's a broad response I'd like to make to this post, but before I do that, let me ask you: what do you think we should do about this problem (having more people than we need labor)?
I doubt it. I think it was inevitable. If a job can be done anywhere and two people are equally qualified to do it, the job's going to go to the lowest bidder.Vincent Alexander said:I'm not too informed on econmics, job creation and the such, but I am interested. Is there any solid footing to the idea that the creation of big unions in the 70s/80s killed jobs over here because that's when companies really started looking for places overseas to take their jobs? It's something I've heard tossed around a few times, and I'm curious what thoughts/opinions/boiks (if any) there are on it.
This really hits home for me. I basically go to work everyday doing the work of 2 men. Sometimes 3. It wasnt like this when I first started my job. Everyone did their part, and wasnt too bad. Then the workload went up, but the number of employees stayed the same. Someone calls in sick, the work is divided between the workers.Puddles said:How many of you know people who are doing the work that 2-3 people used to do? How many of you know people who work at companies that really should hire more people, but wont because they know their overworked employees are just happy to have a job right now?
Seriously?sleeping_dragon said:In the history of the human race; no revolutions has started with one person and succeed.
XMonkey said:
The quality of your labor force doesn't match the value of dollar anymore. This is the core issue, caused by years of ignoring the importance of education, and the rising of the other countries.Puddles said:Okay, there's a broad response I'd like to make to this post, but before I do that, let me ask you: what do you think we should do about this problem (having more people than we need labor)?
RandomVince said:Dear Americans,
Please vote Puddles for President. That is one of the best posts I have ever read.
I do, but I don't think it's a particularly good one either way. Yes, all successful revolutions have depended on the participation of many, many people, but they can be sparked by a single action or person.sleeping_dragon said:You dont get my point do you?
_Xenon_ said:The quality of your labor force doesn't match the value of dollar anymore. This is the core issue, caused by years of ignoring the importance of education, and the rising of the other countries.
To solve this, either
1. water down the dollar (short term plan, print more money, out-cheap the Yuan, not likely to happen),
2. or bring up the quality of your labor force (long term plan, not going to happen until serious political reform),
3. or go for the middle ground: print money, cut spend, tax the rich, create more public section jobs to bring up domestic demands.
The third method has been brought up by quite a lot of people and is part of your America Job Act but it seems your government is too busy with political struggle at the moment. And that's why your people should mobilize the only weapon you have (political freedom) to remind your government what the most important thing it is at moment.
I'm sorry but you seem to be under the impression that government and public sector jobs have not been undergoing the same kind of cuts that have happened in the private sector. Government is not "drastically expanding".DiscoJer said:That's actually what the government has been doing - devaluing the dollar by printing money left and right (qualitative easing) and drastically expanding the government (and public sector jobs). The net result is that poor have gotten poorer by 10-20%, as that's how much less their money buys (their salaries have not gone up). And the only place with a growing economy is Washington DC.
For people who always bring up the "cheap t shirt from China" thing, you are doing it wrong. Shitty jobs like making t shirt always belong to shitty countries with shitty currency. These kinds of jobs have been slipping away from China to SE Asian countries for years and you will never see them come back to the states regardless how much appreciated Yuan is.Polari said:What disheartens me about all this is the fact it doesn't seem that the people realise they hold the power. YOU put these corporations in the position where they exact such a large degree of control over your lives and only YOU have the power to challenge them.
Standing out there on the street doesn't do shit. Stop buying their products, using their services where ever possible. If enough people participate, you'll see power spread more evenly through society once again. Stop buying sweatshop clothes, start making your own or supporting businesses that make clothing ethically - it might cost more, but don't buy a new smartphone every year and buy one less video game every month and you'll be able to afford it. Stop buying processed food and instead buy from farmer's markets. Is it as convenient? Hell no, but these are sacrifices you're going to have to make if you actually want to make a difference. Overall, stop consuming excessively. Get out of debt. Freedom isn't free, you have to make sacrifices to attain it. This should be the message these protests are promoting. All I see is a rabble of self-entitled fools who 90% of world is looking at and asking "What are they complaining about?" You aren't the fucking 99%, the women who have to walk three hours every day just to provide clean water for their families are the 99%.
The problem with collage student unemployment is that the US doesn't have enough domestic demand. Your public sector jobs simply can't meed the end. If the average educated people can't afford anything other than food stamps because they can't find a low level job, how do they buy high value added products such as games or cars? Then you have game sales car sales taking nose dives, then here comes the unemployment for educated people.DiscoJer said:That's actually what the government has been doing - devaluing the dollar by printing money left and right (qualitative easing) and drastically expanding the government (and public sector jobs). The net result is that poor have gotten poorer by 10-20%, as that's how much less their money buys (their salaries have not gone up). And the only place with a growing economy is Washington DC.
The real problem is that there is too much labor supply. You've never going to have a country full of college professors and computer programmers and whatnot - half the population is always going to be dumber than average (and most people are going to be average).
The problem is the US has been trained to think that any job that isn't white collar or requires a college degree is a job "Americans won't do".
XMonkey said:I'm sorry but you seem to be under the impression that government and public sector jobs have not been undergoing the same kind of cuts that have happened in the private sector. Government is not "drastically expanding".
sleeping_dragon said:You dont get my point do you?
Interesting. I'll leave this here: http://www.politifact.com/new-jerse...ssman-bill-pascrell-says-more-600000-public-/el retorno de los sapos said:I think drastically expanding is an exageration but the FEDERAL government isn't shrinking.
http://www.opm.gov/feddata/HistoricalTables/TotalGovernmentSince1962.asp
_Xenon_ said:The quality of your labor force doesn't match the value of dollar anymore. This is the core issue, caused by years of ignoring the importance of education, and the rising of the other countries.
To solve this, either
1. water down the dollar (short term plan, print more money, out-cheap the Yuan, not likely to happen),
2. or bring up the quality of your labor force (long term plan, not going to happen until serious political reform),
3. or go for the middle ground: print money, cut spend, tax the rich, create more public section jobs to bring up domestic demands.
The third method has been brought up by quite a lot of people and is part of your America Job Act but it seems your government is too busy with political struggle at the moment. And that's why your people should mobilize the only weapon you have (political freedom) to remind your government what the most important thing it is at moment.
They don't have as many people as we (China and the US) do. For some of those countries their nature resources can well feed their people.Puddles said:This is pretty interesting. But it brings up the question: how are European countries, with an even stronger currency, able to maintain such higher levels of employment? Is it all because of their public sector?
Bloodbeard said:
kame-sennin said:They're not trying to say the movement is racist. What they're trying to say is that the majority of the people who are in leadership positions are white males (which they acknowledge was not intentional). That means that the protest is more likely to project the views of white males and less likely to project the views of others. The other important point is that black and brown people have been dealing with the economic problems that spurred these protests for centuries. If we're to address the immorality of the current power structure, we must address the racial inequalities produced by this power structure as well. The letter is just a reminder to not forget about issues of race, not so much a critique.
[next, move on comment]
This type of comment is below the standards of this debate (standards you yourself have easily met until now) and is not fitting with the spirit of these protests. If this is to be an inclusive movement, we should at least be willing to hear each other out, and if we disagree - do so respectfully and with substance.
Bloodbeard said:
Puddles said:I support this movement . . .
Polari said:Stop exploiting the citizens of third world countries. How many hours of labor do you think have gone into all your possessions? Mostly likely considerably than you'll ever personally contribute back to society.
How many of these protesters are wearing clothes made in sweatshops? It's an issue of consumption. Americans expect as a right to consume more than they personally produce. Rather than buying ten shirts made in China, buy two made in the United States or somewhere else where they pay their workers an acceptable wage.
ErasureAcer said:Well I'm pretty much going to give this a shot in Minneapolis. Count me in. The OP should be updated with which NeoGAF members are participating and where. Not really looking forward to getting arrested...so I hope that doesn't happen.
TrounceX said:I'll be there.
I don't feel like getting arrested though either so I might wait a few days and take a look at the situation then.
Puddles said:I support this movement. In spite of their somewhat conflicting and not-quite-coherent manifesto, I think that there is a central message that needs to be conveyed. For the last several decades, and to a greatest extent over the last three years, the American way of life has been in decline.
- Our real unemployment rate remains over 15%. Our corporations have returned to their pre-2008 profit levels, but with far fewer employees on payroll. They have achieved this through a combination of outsourcing, which is no longer confined to blue-collar manufacturing, but which is affecting white-collar departments like IT and accounting, as well as productivity increases, which to a large degree depend on employees working longer hours for the same pay. How many of you know people who work 10-12 hour days, who take their work home with them, and who arent paid for their overtime hours? How many of you know people who are doing the work that 2-3 people used to do? How many of you know people who work at companies that really should hire more people, but wont because they know their overworked employees are just happy to have a job right now?
- More and more college graduates are taking unpaid internships that violate the Fair Labor Standards Act and dont lead to full-time positions at their conclusion.
- Healthcare remains out of reach for 16% of the population. Premiums are soaring, deductibles are increasing, and the provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act that might mitigate some of the damage are years away from being implemented, if the whole act isnt repealed first.
- Education has become so expensive that a college degree might not even be a net gain for many young people. The entry-level jobs that used to be available for college graduates of any major are disappearing or being converted into unpaid internships. Only science and engineering graduates have any real certainty that theyll be able to find decent jobs after college.
- Millions of homes are being foreclosed on. Some of these homeowners were irresponsible, to be sure. But many more were making their payments before their interest rates increased. Many were doing fine until a member of the household lost a job. Our government was willing to spend billions bailing out failed financial institutions, but investors are throwing a fit at the idea of allowing judges to lower a familys mortgage payments to a sustainable level, and our politicians are listening to them.
Americans have been told that this is the new normal. That globalization means that we all have to sacrifice. And yet through all this, there is one group of people who havent sacrificed anything. In fact, their standard of living has risen over the past few years. These are the top 1%. But people are increasingly finding this arrangement unacceptable. If we all have to sacrifice, shouldnt the people who already have the most make the biggest sacrifices? Shouldnt a profitable company be willing to take a lower profit margin before it slashes payrolls? Shouldnt a CEO decrease his own salary or bonus before he or she implements layoffs?
The social contract in America is broken. It used to be work hard and youll be able to support a family. Now its take what we give you, and be happy about it. Many politicians have convinced their constituents to support policies and economic ways of thinking that run directly against their own interests. Theyve indoctrinated them with a Randian philosophy that states that everything we have comes from our wealthy benefactors who create jobs, invent new products, and make our way of life possible. They dub the wealthiest Americans producers and the rest of us moochers, failing to acknowledge that every working American is a producer, and that there are millions more who would love nothing more than to be working and producing, but cannot because of the economic crisis caused largely by our financial industry. They fail to acknowledge that a social contract that excessively rewards the wealthy for investment and job creation only works if jobs are created and investments are made. If this isn't happening, then clearly it's time to re-evaulate the way we run our society.
Many of our politicians have turned the bottom 99% against each other. Look no further than the way they refer to our social programs as entitlements, conjuring up the image of a spoiled child demanding something he doesnt deserve. Look at how theyve attacked the very concepts of organized labor and collective bargaining, which were central to improving working conditions in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Theyve dubbed our struggle for a greater share of the rewards of our societal production as class warfare.
They insist that a deficit of over $1 trillion can only be balanced by cuts to our social programs and to our infrastructure and education spending. Theyve proven themselves willing to risk our countrys default to prevent any tax increase on the only Americans who havent had to make sacrifices in this time of struggle. They seem oblivious to our declining social mobility, to our lowered standard of living for all but the wealthiest, to our banana republic levels of inequality, and to the diminishing opportunities that young Americans can look forward to. They effectively tell us that the only way we can get back to the American economic reality that our parents grew up with is to make the rich richer, to abandon our ideas about protecting the environment and our workers, and to allow mega-corporations free rein to engage in any anti-consumer, anti-employee practices they so choose.
The voices of the people are being drowned out. One of the most popular aspects of Obama's healthcare reform was the public option. It was bargained away to prevent healthcare corporations from running an ad campagin against the whole thing. One of Bush's accomplishments, Medicare Part D, contained a clause prohibiting the federal government from negotiating bulk discounts with pharmaceutical companies. The Senator who pushed that clause through was given a 7-figure job with the pharmaceutical industry a year later. A majority of Americans would rather increase the top tax rate than cut Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security benefits, but their voices aren't being heard.
This protest is about putting a stop to that. Its about recognizing that our country is driven by the everyday people who work hard expecting nothing more than a decent standard of living for themselves and their children. Its about recognizing that the top 1% would have nothing without the rest of society, and that if sacrifices are to be made, then they should be made by all, and not only by those with the least to give. Most of all, its about demanding that our politicians be accountable to all of the people, not just to their campaign donors, and that they put the interests of the working class above the interests of their political parties.
Puddles said:
I actually have difficulty finding such things, as most department stores are filled with the cheap stuff. I was thinking someone should make a "made in america" store, where everything for sale is US-made. I think it might be a good idea.Polari said:Standing out there on the street doesn't do shit. Stop buying their products, using their services where ever possible. If enough people participate, you'll see power spread more evenly through society once again. Stop buying sweatshop clothes, start making your own or supporting businesses that make clothing ethically.
Some of the comments in the section/youtube are annoying. People are noting that the guy talking is saying surface statements without much evidence, but it's like he's trying to say as much as he can within the 1-2 minutes he's given. The subjects he mentioned would have to be given like 10 minutes each at least in order to talk about them in depth.Marleyman said:http://www.observer.com/2011/10/exc...-fox-news-anchor-in-un-aired-interview-video/
Love this. Disgusting though that the interviewer, Griff Jenkins, says that they will air this and never did. Also find it disgusting that FoxNews promoted those damn tea party events as if they sponsored them, yet this protest, that is growing all over the country, gets left on the cutting room floor.
FlightOfHeaven said:Wish one of these were in Miami. We have some of the greatest wealth disparity in the US.
FlightOfHeaven said:Wish one of these were in Miami. We have some of the greatest wealth disparity in the US.
FlightOfHeaven said:Wish one of these were in Miami. We have some of the greatest wealth disparity in the US.
ColonelColon said:It seems that Occupy Miami is planned to begin on October 5th.
http://www.occupytogether.org/events/southeast/florida/occupy-miami/
We show how the prevailing majority opinion in a population can be rapidly reversed by a small fraction p of randomly distributed committed agents who consistently proselytize the opposing opinion and are immune to influence. Specifically, we show that when the committed fraction grows beyond a critical value pc=10%, there is a dramatic decrease in the time Tc taken for the entire population to adopt the committed opinion.
Wow. Seems like it may be true, I'm not sure. But I guess the trick is defining "population". I guess GAF is its own population, and then pre-existing political establishments are their own population, etc.ToxicAdam said:I think this relevant to this thread.