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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!

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RiccochetJ

Gold Member
I am more disappointed that no one can post in a thread about this subject unless they agree with OWS. Whats wrong with open decision? Nothing more boring and waste of time then a circlejerk thread.

Manos is proving that you can indeed post in here if you don't agree. He hasn't been banned, or barred from posting in this thread. You will probably get in a lot of arguments and angry posts directed your way, but that's not stopping you from posting your position.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Now I'm a fascist LOL
Not quite, a fascist wouldn't waste his time in front of a monitor rather than in front of people's sliced throats. I'd say you're on the right path 'tho!.
 

alstein

Member
I am more disappointed that no one can post in a thread about this subject unless they agree with OWS. Whats wrong with open decision? Nothing more boring and waste of time then a circlejerk thread.

When you have an extreme minority opinion on a core issue to a number of people in a community, you're going to get flak on it.

90% of the people who care about this issue on here are pro-OWS and anti-corporatism.
(including myself) If you want a nicer reception, find a community that agrees with your views, such as JoeUser or Fox News.
 

Alucrid

Banned
When you have an extreme minority opinion on a core issue to a number of people in a community, you're going to get flak on it.

90% of the people who care about this issue on here are pro-OWS and anti-corporatism.
(including myself) If you want a nicer reception, find a community that agrees with your views, such as JoeUser or Fox News.

You do realize how petty and childish this makes you sound right? Way to represent the OWS movement in a good light.
 

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
Not quite, a fascist wouldn't waste his time in front of a monitor rather than in front of people's sliced throats. I'd say you're on the right path 'tho!.

Christ. I don't necessarily agree with everything Manos is posting but have some perspective. That's why I asked him that question, but he hasn't answered me yet.
 

Slayven

Member
When you have an extreme minority opinion on a core issue to a number of people in a community, you're going to get flak on it.

90% of the people who care about this issue on here are pro-OWS and anti-corporatism.
(including myself) If you want a nicer reception, find a community that agrees with your views, such as JoeUser or Fox News.

So you are either with them or part of the problem? There are no shades of grey? That and you don't know I feel.
 
Christ. I don't necessarily agree with everything Manos is posting but have some perspective. That's why I asked him that question, but he hasn't answered me yet.

Its a fair question, I'm on my mobile now, but id be happy to answer it later. Only request is could you possibly narrow the question or even just some specific facetsof the economy and such.

Thanks!
 

akira28

Member
Yawn. I'm sure he'll be back. Probably off doing magicstop stuff or possibly even OWS stuff. The trolls do get fed very well around here, and it's why we have 177 pages. Which...is, I'm not sure how I feel about that exactly. proabably 100 pages of BS we could have done without, but I guess exchange is part of the process. Although not a whole lot is being exchanged here.
 

alstein

Member
So you are either with them or part of the problem? There are no shades of grey? That and you don't know I feel.

Even in a hivemind there are small differences of opinion.

Honestly if you're not with the protestors to me, you are part of the problem. You have your rights though, not getting shouted down on here isn't one of them though.
 
I don't think the problem is having a civil conversation about the pros/cons of the movement, that's perfectly fine and encouraged, but supporting police brutality is a very, very different thing. If your reaction is "law-breaking criminals being dealt with, just another day at UC", well, you better get some flak for the sake of human dignity.
 

Arde5643

Member
I don't think the problem is having a civil conversation about the pros/cons of the movement, that's perfectly fine and encouraged, but supporting police brutality is a very, very different thing. If your reaction is "law-breaking criminals being dealt with, just another day at UC", well, you better get some flak for the sake of human dignity.

I'm still surprised people still bother responding to Manos though, since he clearly isn't interested in anything approaching a discussion. He's just here to defend police action at all cost.
 
Yawn. I'm sure he'll be back. Probably off doing magicstop stuff or possibly even OWS stuff. The trolls do get fed very well around here, and it's why we have 177 pages. Which...is, I'm not sure how I feel about that exactly. proabably 100 pages of BS we could have done without, but I guess exchange is part of the process. Although not a whole lot is being exchanged here.

absolutely nothing is being exchanged here. most of the supporters don't even visit here because Manos has just devolved this into one of the shittiest threads i've ever seen. I'm sad to say i've taken part in it.

there are other forums i'm at where we actually DISCUSS this issue in an intelligent manner, it's really great. and guess what? people disagree with eachother like humans do, but there isn't open trolling on the highest levels. Opinions are substantiated, minds are widened, discourse and rapport is established. We've had that many times in here, but someone will break it up with "HUH HUH ART DEGREE HIPPIES WANNA HAND OUT AND A SHOT TO THE HEAD" and what the fuck can we do to that? no, seriously?

here thanks to the trolls it's just bullshit that we supporters have to try and refute at every turn, and that's the issue; do we ignore the trolls? how can we let such obvious lies and misrepresntations just go then? it's an ethical dilemma we're in, and it always ends up feeding the trolls
 

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
Its a fair question, I'm on my mobile now, but id be happy to answer it later. Only request is could you possibly narrow the question or even just some specific facetsof the economy and such.

Thanks!

I can do that. You'll be getting a lot of questions though!
Let's start down this rabbit hole:
What's your position on soft money in politics? eg: Lobbyists, PAC's etc

Edit:

I'm still surprised people still bother responding to Manos though, since he clearly isn't interested in anything approaching a discussion. He's just here to defend police action at all cost.
I disagree. I haven't seen people trying to engage him in a genuine discussion/debate. I've just seen people attacking with extreme examples and he's responding with the same, but on the other side. To be fair, I try to keep up on this thread, but I admit that I've missed pages of posts. This thread does move fast.
 

minus_273

Banned
Even in a hivemind there are small differences of opinion.

Honestly if you're not with the protestors to me, you are part of the problem. You have your rights though, not getting shouted down on here isn't one of them though.

exactly. all or nothing. There is no in-between!

where is this coming from? no one has said this. only minus did, and he is a troll in here like Manos and Jenga


i think you a the minority here.
 

Alucrid

Banned
absolutely nothing is being exchanged here. most of the supporters don't even visit here because Manos has just devolved this into one of the shittiest threads i've ever seen. I'm sad to say i've taken part in it.

there are other forums i'm at where we actually DISCUSS this issue in an intelligent manner, it's really great. and guess what? people disagree with eachother like humans do, but there isn't open trolling on the highest levels. Opinions are substantiated, minds are widened, discourse and rapport is established. We've had that many times in here, but someone will break it up with "HUH HUH ART DEGREE HIPPIES WANNA HAND OUT AND A SHOT TO THE HEAD" and what the fuck can we do to that? no, seriously?

here thanks to the trolls it's just bullshit that we supporters have to try and refute at every turn, and that's the issue; do we ignore the trolls? how can we let such obvious lies and misrepresntations just go then? it's an ethical dilemma we're in, and it always ends up feeding the trolls

You seem to have an inflated sense of self importance.
 

minus_273

Banned
absolutely nothing is being exchanged here. most of the supporters don't even visit here because Manos has just devolved this into one of the shittiest threads i've ever seen. I'm sad to say i've taken part in it.

there are other forums i'm at where we actually DISCUSS this issue in an intelligent manner, it's really great. and guess what? people disagree with eachother like humans do, but there isn't open trolling on the highest levels. Opinions are substantiated, minds are widened, discourse and rapport is established. We've had that many times in here, but someone will break it up with "HUH HUH ART DEGREE HIPPIES WANNA HAND OUT AND A SHOT TO THE HEAD" and what the fuck can we do to that? no, seriously?

here thanks to the trolls it's just bullshit that we supporters have to try and refute at every turn, and that's the issue; do we ignore the trolls? how can we let such obvious lies and misrepresntations just go then? it's an ethical dilemma we're in, and it always ends up feeding the trolls

i agree. the only long term solution to this problem is reeducation and we can't do it on online forums. Thats why I'm participating at my local teach in.
 
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OCCUPY_PEPPER_SPRAY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

UC Davis launches probe after pepper spray video

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The University of California, Davis has launched an investigation in the wake of video showing an officer using pepper spray on a group of protesters who appear to be sitting passively on the ground with their arms interlocked.

Calling the video "chilling," UC Davis Chancellor Linda Katehi said on Saturday she is forming a task force made up of faculty, students and staff to review the events surrounding the protests a day earlier. Katehi made the announcement in a message to the campus.
Good. Hope he loses his job. Maybe that'll make other cops think twice about brutalizing people who aren't a danger to them whatsoever.
 
You seem to have an inflated sense of self importance.

you gonna substantiate this at all? i doubt it, but it's worth a try. i mean i could just call you bad names but..

there's not a connection between my post and your reply, at all. and that's again the very issue i am addressing. It's just name calling at this point.

i'd LOVE to try and see this type of shit fly in real life, but it doesn't, people in civil society and in serious discourse usually act pretty reasonable.
 

RyanDG

Member
Good. Hope he loses his job. Maybe that'll make other cops think twice about brutalizing people who aren't a danger to them whatsoever.

And this is what should be happening. Regardless of what people feel about the protests, any time physical and video evidence appears that show the use of force as having occurred, action and discovery should be taken. Even if it later comes out that the force ended up as being warranted or justified (and I'm not saying it was in the case, just speaking in generalities), we at least are able to make a reasonable and informed decision based on everything that's provided in an investigation.

The main problem I have with the protests is that in trying to be all inclusive, it has a tendency of ostracizing some people who would like a much more immediate and direct approach to the message. Generalities are great, but right now there is a distinct divide in some media to basically stigmatize the protests because of its loose message and easy to pick up fringe elements and point fingers and laugh. It's like all protests (similar to what the Tea Party suffered from when Left-leaning opponents picked out the fringe to try to paint the entire Tea Party with a single brush) in that regards, but is definitely something that hurts on a 'support' level.

There are definitely some things that do need to be addressed though by our government - specifically limiting campaign donations ($1 a person!) and eliminating bill riders (one of the worst legislative tool our congress has).
 

I don't think this necessarily needs to be attached to the whole Occupy movement and I'm not even sure that's a good idea for getting it to succeed.

BUT overturning Citizens United is incredibly important, so I support the proposed amendment. It won't pass, though, because amending the Constitution is ridiculously hard and it'll be even more so in this case with a lot of money lined up against it. And, really, what needs to be attacked are the two ridiculous concepts of money as speech and corporate personhood.
 

Alucrid

Banned
you gonna substantiate this at all? i doubt it, but it's worth a try. i mean i could just call you bad names but..

there's not a connection between my post and your reply, at all. and that's again the very issue i am addressing. It's just name calling at this point.

i'd LOVE to try and see this type of shit fly in real life, but it doesn't, people in civil society and in serious discourse usually act pretty reasonable.

You act as if this place should be the pinnacle of discourse on the movement and its issues when, really, it's just a forum. It doesn't matter if it's being trolled and it's your prerogative as to whether or not you answer them. You can still have this highly intellectual discourse that you speak of, you just choose not to.

As for civil discourse in real life, yeah, that generally doesn't happen. I mean, if you look at the OWS movement it should be clear enough that it doesn't.


When are elections again?
 
I don't think this necessarily needs to be attached to the whole Occupy movement and I'm not even sure that's a good idea for getting it to succeed.

BUT overturning Citizens United is incredibly important, so I support the proposed amendment. It won't pass, though, because amending the Constitution is ridiculously hard and it'll be even more so in this case with a lot of money lined up against it. And, really, what needs to be attacked are the two ridiculous concepts of money as speech and corporate personhood.

Just out of curiosity, does anybody have any proposals for what could counterbalance corporate resources to push such an amendment through? I can't imagine what it would take to pull it off.
 
From the first comment about the OCCUPIED Amendment:

There is a major problem with this particular amendment. It says "For-Profit" entities are prohibited. That means the super PAC are still allowed to send as much as they want in an election since they are formed as non-profit entities. He needs to change it to read that no entity whatsoever, be it a corporation, limited liability company, partnership or sole proprietor as authorized by any state within the union of the United States, by the United States of America or any foreign government or state is prohibited from participating in any way, to include but not limited to monetary contributions or in-king value to a candidate, political part and special interest group for the purpose of promoting, advocating, or otherwise influencing the political and election process. Such entities are NOT natural persons and do not enjoy the protections and rights of the Constitution of the United State of America. Only "Natural Persons" who are eligible to vote in the federal elections, any state or subdivision thereof election shall be allowed to contribute money or in-kind value to a candidate or political party. Limits of such contributions may be regulated by the Congress of the United States and the states therein.

This will force the politicians to seek their funding from private individuals who are eligible to vote and no other source. This will then cause them to truly represent the people and not the corporations. I would further prohibit any gift or in-kind value given to any member of Congress and their staffs, both employed and volunteered. Also prohibit them from working for any special interest group upon leaving their commitment to the Congressional staff or no less than 8 years. In this way, their value to a lobbyist is diminished because enough of the Congressional members and staff will probably be changed and the individual will not know many of the new people. So they are less likely to be bought by special interests groups.
 
verizreute.jpg


XJ: How did this come together?

Mark Read: It came up at an action coordination meeting. We were talking about what to do on the 17th. We had a sense that the morning on Wall Street would be forceful and confrontational, and we wanted to not do the same kind of thing in the afternoon. Initial talks focused on having a thousand people taking the bridge in the afternoon, and continuing in a militant mode of activism. But we started thinking about creating a more unifying moment. A celebration of the birthday of Occupy Wall Street. Maybe taking the roadway and having lots of arrests might not be best thing. What if we took the pedestrian walkway, and gave out LED candles? We would give out 10,000 LED tea candles, a river of light streaming over the walkway.

And a guy named Hero, who has been central to a lot of facets of the occupation since the beginning, turns to me and says, "We need a bat signal. The 99%."

I said, I think I can do that. I know just enough about how the technology works that I think I can pull that off. And for the past two weeks, I've worked full time on figuring that out.

My friend Will Etundi, who I know from these renegade street parties, the alter-globalization movement, carnivals against capital—he's part of a community of friends who deploy spectacle and art in the service of radical politics. Will and I have done other events that were about getting people into public space. Transforming the normal way we use space, turning it into a party, a roving community, something festive and mobile. Through that work, I'd already met people with a variety of skill sets, strange and magical abilities. I got in touch with them right away, and started pulling together a team. Who would have a 12K lumen projector, a big expensive piece of equipment, the most powerful projector you can get?

I knew I wanted to throw it on the Verizon Building. Everyone who lives in New York has looked at that big monolithic structure. For some of us, every time we look at it we think of how cool it would be as a projection surface.

I knew we'd need a powerful projector. But if you had something that expensive on loan for free, you couldn't just sneak it up on some roof and be in jeopardy.

I knew I had to find someone who lived in a building nearby.

XJ: How did you go about finding someone nearby who would allow you stage this from inside their home?

MR: Opposite the Verizon building, there is a bunch of city housing. Subsidized, rent-controlled. There's a lack of services, lights are out in the hallways, the housing feels like jails, like prisons. I walked around, and put up signs in there offering money to rent out an apartment for a few hours. I didn't say much more. I received surprisingly few calls, and most of them seemed not quite fully "there." But then I got a call from a person who sounded pretty sane. Her name was Denise Vega. She lived on the 16th floor. Single, working mom, mother of three.

I spoke with her on the phone, and a few days later went over and met her.

I told her what I wanted to do, and she was enthused. The more I described, the more excited she got.

Her parting words were, "let's do this."

She wouldn't take my money. That was the day of the eviction of Zuccotti, the same day. And she'd been listening to the news all day, she saw everything that had happened.

"I can't charge you money, this is for the people," she said.

veriz2reut.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxG4g62rnd8&feature=player_embedded

http://boingboing.net/2011/11/17/interview-with-the-occupy-wall.html
 
Really, like I said, the actual thing the Constitution needs is an amendment that finally ends the concept of corporate personhood. I don't have a problem with giving them some limited protections, but other countries manage to do this perfectly well without opening up the legal Pandora's Box that is granting them personhood and all of the Constitutional rights that come with it.

Eliminating money-as-speech would be good, too, but that's less important.
 
She wouldn't take my money. That was the day of the eviction of Zuccotti, the same day. And she'd been listening to the news all day, she saw everything that had happened.

"I can't charge you money, this is for the people," she said.

wow, that's awesome. people like her are what the movement was made for
 

alstein

Member
I don't think this necessarily needs to be attached to the whole Occupy movement and I'm not even sure that's a good idea for getting it to succeed.

BUT overturning Citizens United is incredibly important, so I support the proposed amendment. It won't pass, though, because amending the Constitution is ridiculously hard and it'll be even more so in this case with a lot of money lined up against it. And, really, what needs to be attacked are the two ridiculous concepts of money as speech and corporate personhood.

Demanding constitutional amendments is the best next step for the movement in general- it will allow primarying of corporate Dems, and give something for popular support that is concrete- you can't rely on police brutality to keep your numbers up.

I do think even if this movement fails, we're going to see anti-corporatism rise among the youth of America, so it will win out in a generation or so. The problems aren't going away, so neither are the protests.
 
My personal politics-nerd fantasy - not because I'd like to see it passed, but because it'd rip the coalitions that make up both major political parties both in half, and that'd be funny - is a Constitutional personhood amendment that (1) eliminates corporate personhood and (2) grants personhood to fetuses. Both parties would be doing backflips trying to justify blocking it to their constituents.
 
Hello everyone. I was arrested Thursday while sitting down in the intersection of Pine and Nassau. Here's some video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM7unTfTfuo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I'm at 1:20, in the green jacket and black hat. I was very proud to sit down for what I believe in, and I encourage anyone else to do the same.

Thank you.

Yawn. I'm sure he'll be back. Probably off doing magicstop stuff or possibly even OWS stuff. The trolls do get fed very well around here, and it's why we have 177 pages. Which...is, I'm not sure how I feel about that exactly. proabably 100 pages of BS we could have done without, but I guess exchange is part of the process. Although not a whole lot is being exchanged here.

Keep in mind, lurkers read the thread but don't post. Some of them are undecided on the issue, and they watch how both sides of the debate play out. Personally, I'm glad Manos is the spokesmen for the 1%

where is this coming from? no one has said this. only minus did, and he is a troll in here like Manos and Jenga

However you feel about Manos, he is expressing his real opinion. Minus is intentionally saying things he does not believe to get a rise out of people, the definition of trolling.
 
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