Support NeoGAF

[theBishop]

It should be mentioned that the protest at the Air and Space Museum was against Drone Warfare, not part of OccupyDC.

 

[Enron]

It should be mentioned that the protest at the Air and Space Museum was against Drone Warfare, not part of OccupyDC.

It was mentioned about 4 or 5 pages back. It wasn't on OccupyDC's schedule, rather it was a bunch of people from OccupyDC and protesters from another group.

Legba Carrefour, who is working with Occupy D.C., said a number of individuals joined the march to the museum following an afternoon meeting of the group.

Edit:


I just saw this on the AJC - John Lewis sent away by Occupy Atlanta -

http://blogs.ajc.com/the-buzz/2011/...miffed-by-occupy-atlanta-dis/?cxntlid=thbz_hm

Video of Occupy Atlanta linked to in that story - some conservative blog was down there taking video (don't worry, it's just shooting video, no antics or stunts or whatever..so far, anyways) of the meeting. lol @ this video, though. Guy leading Occupy Atlanta in this particular discussion is a Marxist, and keeps talking about how the "State wants to kill us".

Yeah, don't really think Occupy Atlanta is going to go very far with these kinds of folks running the show.

 

[BobsRevenge]

Unsustainable and unrealistic is allowing the banks to regulate themselves. How many fraudulent cases let off with a tap on the wrist, how much money do you have to lose before you realise your being taken to the cleaner. We're in the trillions already. The vast majority of unemployed in America are not "sitting around waiting to be given a job because they feel they are entitled to it." Those jobs have been wiped out because of Wall Sts insatiable drive to make money at whatever cost.

They are legally bound to be the greediest they can, in that they have to justify their positions in terms of value for shareholders. Obviously not having effective regulation leads to people with poor foresight or ulterior motives fucking people on a massive scale.

Anyone can see that the sensible thing to do right now is put in place effective regulations. The greed is good, so long as you contain it. Personally, I think the big banks should be split up, with a focus on traditional banking and commodities trading being split.

 

[theBishop]

They are legally bound to be the greediest they can, in that they have to justify their positions in terms of value for shareholders. Obviously not having effective regulation leads to people with poor foresight or ulterior motives fucking people on a massive scale.

Anyone can see that the sensible thing to do right now is put in place effective regulations. The greed is good, so long as you contain it. Personally, I think the big banks should be split up, with a focus on traditional banking and commodities trading being split.

The problem with your point is that the banks were sensibly regulated. Regulation doesn't solve the problem, it just creates a new struggle to maintain the regulation. The banks cannot tolerate a blockage in their pursuit of profit.

Your last point about breaking up the banks is closer to the mark, but that's been done in the past too. Eventually the banks re-consolidate into what we have today.

The best solution I've heard which might be somewhat feasible is to nationalize the banks. If the banks are operated by democracy rather than market interest, maybe they can be kept under control.

 

[Timedog]

It was mentioned about 4 or 5 pages back. It wasn't on OccupyDC's schedule, rather it was a bunch of people from OccupyDC and protesters from another group.




Edit:


I just saw this on the AJC - John Lewis sent away by Occupy Atlanta -

http://blogs.ajc.com/the-buzz/2011/...miffed-by-occupy-atlanta-dis/?cxntlid=thbz_hm

Video of Occupy Atlanta linked to in that story - some conservative blog was down there taking video (don't worry, it's just shooting video, no antics or stunts or whatever..so far, anyways) of the meeting. lol @ this video, though. Guy leading Occupy Atlanta in this particular discussion is a Marxist, and keeps talking about how the "State wants to kill us".

Yeah, don't really think Occupy Atlanta is going to go very far with these kinds of folks running the show.

What is this repeating every sentence fragment bullshit??? And jazz hands instead of clapping??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[I H8 Memes]

About that Air and Space Museum thing. Is this true? This story says it was a conservative goofball who infiltrated the OW movement that convinced a small group to go to the A&S museum, and that he was the only one that assaulted anybody and was the only one to enter the museum.

[A]s far as anyone knew I was part of this cause — a cause that I had infiltrated the day before in order to mock and undermine in the pages of The American Spectator — and I wasn’t giving up before I had my story. Under a cloud of pepper spray I forced myself into the doors and sprinted blindly across the floor of the Air and Space Museum…

 

[Chris R]

The protestors must be doing something right. Local morning talk show was calling the lot of them anarchists and communists.

 

[travisbickle]

The problem with your point is that the banks were sensibly regulated. Regulation doesn't solve the problem, it just creates a new struggle to maintain the regulation. The banks cannot tolerate a blockage in their pursuit of profit.

Your last point about breaking up the banks is closer to the mark, but that's been done in the past too. Eventually the banks re-consolidate into what we have today.

The best solution I've heard which might be somewhat feasible is to nationalize the banks. If the banks are operated by democracy rather than market interest, maybe they can be kept under control.

Nationalising the banks would be pretty cool, and anyone who would complain about not earning enough because of government-owned banks they could just re-train in something else they see as more lucrative.

 

[Timedog]

Nationalising the banks would be pretty cool, and anyone who would complain about not earning enough because of government-owned banks they could just re-train in something else they see as more lucrative.

Who's the highest paid national worker right now?

 

[Enron]

About that Air and Space Museum thing. Is this true? This story says it was a conservative goofball who infiltrated the OW movement that convinced a small group to go to the A&S museum, and that he was the only one that assaulted anybody and was the only one to enter the museum.

He didn't even assualt anyone. He just ran past the guards.

 

[remnant]

The best solution I've heard which might be somewhat feasible is to nationalize the banks. If the banks are operated by democracy rather than market interest, maybe they can be kept under control.

lol Oh god. Do some research on national banks. They don't really operate by democracy and tend to fail spectacularly.

 

[Timedog]

lol Oh god. Do some research on national banks. They don't really operate by democracy and tend to fail spectacularly.

Sounds exactly like our current banks.

 

[Baron Aloha]

Who's the highest paid national worker right now?

I'm going to guess it is the president at 400k. Regular federal workers at the top of the pay scale (assuming GS15 Step 10 is the highest) make just about 130k.

 

[Dude Abides]

The protestors must be doing something right. Local morning talk show was calling the lot of them anarchists and communists.

Yep. One of the best things about this is it really irritates the stupidest elements in mainstream political discourse.

 

[BobsRevenge]

The problem with your point is that the banks were sensibly regulated. Regulation doesn't solve the problem, it just creates a new struggle to maintain the regulation. The banks cannot tolerate a blockage in their pursuit of profit.

Your last point about breaking up the banks is closer to the mark, but that's been done in the past too. Eventually the banks re-consolidate into what we have today.

The best solution I've heard which might be somewhat feasible is to nationalize the banks. If the banks are operated by democracy rather than market interest, maybe they can be kept under control.

The vast majority of people are too stupid to effectively vote in good people for a nationalized banking system. Hell, our democratically selected institutions put a fucking Ayn Rand disciple at the head of the Federal Reserve. No way I'd trust a nationalized banking system, and I'm pretty progressive.

Banks weren't sensibly regulated. Well, they were, but then the regulations eroded to a critical point where people were able to game the system in all these ways, which eventually caused the bubble. The market volatility is a result of deregulation. Bring the post-depression regulations back. It'll slow down economic growth, but I believe it's already been agreed to that the economy is out of the recession. It's time to heal that system and bring jobs back to the middle and working classes.

And bank consolidation can also be regulated. In fact, it did used to be. The failing banks should've been briefly nationalized like GM was instead of this crude bailout and the further consolidation. But after that period they should be accountable to customers and competition needs to work for the consumers.

 

[theBishop]

Banks weren't sensibly regulated. Well, they were, but then the regulations eroded to a critical point where people were able to game the system in all these ways, which eventually caused the bubble. The market volatility is a result of deregulation. Bring the post-depression regulations back.

I don't see how you can know this, and still argue for regulation. It's not like the regulations just dissolved naturally. They were repealed as a result of unrelenting lobbying and outright buying of politicians over the last 60 years. The market incentive to erode regulations is just too great for the banks to ignore.

Even worse, we're now living under the Citizens United supreme court ruling that says corporate campaign spending is free speech protected by the first amendment. So even if by some miracle we could get back to New Deal-era regulation, it would be aggressively targeted for lobbying the next day.

It's not enough to re-regulate. We have to find a way to eliminate the incentives that would cause a bank to oppose regulation.

 

[BobsRevenge]

I don't see how you can know this, and still argue for regulation. It's not like the regulations just dissolved naturally. They were repealed as a result of unrelenting lobbying and outright buying of politicians over the last 60 years. The market incentive to erode regulations is just too great for the banks to ignore.

Even worse, we're now living under the Citizens United supreme court ruling that says corporate campaign spending is free speech protected by the first amendment. So even if by some miracle we could get back to New Deal-era regulation, it would be aggressively targeted for lobbying the next day.

It's not enough to re-regulate. We have to find a way to eliminate the incentives that would cause a bank to oppose regulation.

Yeah, there needs to be a campaign financing reform amendment. That's obvious. I mean, we know how to fix these things, the politicians know, and bankers know, it's just... how possible are they? Not very.

Re-regulation will happen, that's pretty much a given, and it has already been happening. We also need to replace Bernanke with someone that is more in-line with Krugman's economics. Splitting up the banks won't happen unless there is a major public movement specifically stating that as a goal.

 

[Evlar]

I'm going to guess it is the president at 400k. Regular federal workers at the top of the pay scale (assuming GS15 Step 10 is the highest) make just about 130k.

Do we count state employees? Because if we do, it's probably a football coach.

 

[alstein]

Do we count state employees? Because if we do, it's probably a football coach.

Coaches earn about $100k from the states on average, the rest of their money comes from boosters/private sources. Those weekly shows they do, that's a big part of their salary- they get paid huge bucks to do that.

 

[GDGF]

Thinking about joining the lot at Occupy Savannah later today, but I'm kind of too old to be getting arrested for protesting such and such.

 

[magicstop]

Awesome! Slavoj Zizek spoke at Liberty Square for OWS today. Videos up:
http://occupywallst.org/article/today-liberty-plaza-had-visit-slavoj-zizek/
I think a presence like Zizek's is huge for this movement, and I'm ramped up to see he was there.

 

[Timedog]

Seriously, what is with the repeating thing? It's creepy. Are they doing that for a reason?

In the Zizek video he doesn't have a mic, so it kind of makes sense for people who are far away. In the other video the dude has a bullhorn.

 

[SouthernDragon]

The gatherings are rather large, so even with a bullhorn, it makes sense.

 

[cooljeanius]

Seriously, what is with the repeating thing? It's creepy. Are they doing that for a reason?

In the Zizek video he doesn't have a mic, so it kind of makes sense for people who are far away. In the other video the dude has a bullhorn.

You mean the "People's Mic"? It's for cases in which the bullhorn isn't readily available.

 

[Enron]

Seriously, what is with the repeating thing? It's creepy. Are they doing that for a reason?

In the Zizek video he doesn't have a mic, so it kind of makes sense for people who are far away. In the other video the dude has a bullhorn.

They do it so everyone can hear.

 

[Wazzim]

Awesome! Slavoj Zizek spoke at Liberty Square for OWS today. Videos up:
http://occupywallst.org/article/today-liberty-plaza-had-visit-slavoj-zizek/
I think a presence like Zizek's is huge for this movement, and I'm ramped up to see he was there.

Awesome! He is a great man.

 

[empty vessel]

Seriously, what is with the repeating thing? It's creepy. Are they doing that for a reason?

In the Zizek video he doesn't have a mic, so it kind of makes sense for people who are far away. In the other video the dude has a bullhorn.

It's illegal to use an amplification device without a permit. The repeating is human amplification so everybody in attendance can here what the speaker is saying.

 

[akira28]

What is this repeating every sentence fragment bullshit??? And jazz hands instead of clapping??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It's their "Human Public Address System". They were originally denied loud speakers and megaphones, or any electronics beyond small scale battery packs for laptops, so they created a way that the speakers could address large groups.


edit: beaten for not readin the last post.

Thinking about joining the lot at Occupy Savannah later today, but I'm kind of too old to be getting arrested for protesting such and such.

If you don't want to be on the front lines, every movement has it's backline too. You can check their website for contact, and they can tell you other ways you can offer support.

 

[chronos4590]

And Then Kanye West Appeared at the Occupy Wall Street Protest…

Nothing says i’m part of the 99% more than having your bottom row of teeth covered in gold. I think we're going to see a trend of celebrities doing this just for the exposure

Spoiler

And I just became part of the problem

 

[AiTM]

Nothing says i’m part of the 99% more than having your bottom row of teeth covered in gold. I think we're going to see a trend of celebrities doing this just for the exposure

Spoiler

And I just became part of the problem

This is so abusrd you can use a system to send your product to millions or billions of people, and protest the system that made it possible.

 

[Chichikov]

This is so abusrd you can use a system to send your product to millions or billions of people, and protest the system that made it possible.

I'm pretty sure no one there protesting the music industry.
Not to mention that musicians were able to become millionaires even when we still have bank regulation and a much more progressive tax code.

So I'm not sure I get your point.

 

[akira28]

*Steals Kanye's solid gold throne while he's off at the OWS protest*


Maybe if he leaves the 3lb platinum Jesus piece at home...

 

[AiTM]

I'm pretty sure no one there protesting the music industry.
Not to mention that musicians were able to be millionaires even when we still have bank regulation and a much more progressive tax code.

So I'm not sure I get your point.

Wait I thought they were protesting our capitalist system...what exactly are they protesting. Just the banks? Cause Im seeing tons of "capitalism failed" videos.

 

[andymcc]

I'm pretty sure no one there protesting the music industry.
Not to mention that musicians were able to become millionaires even when we still have bank regulation and a much more progressive tax code.

So I'm not sure I get your point.

how dare rich taxpayers empathize with others struggles!

 

[Karma Kramer]

Wait I thought they were protesting our capitalist system...what exactly are they protesting. Just the banks? Cause Im seeing tons of "capitalism failed" videos.

At this time it's impossible to conclude any uniform message on capitalism and if it's failed or just needs fixing/

 

[akira28]

Wait I thought they were protesting our capitalist system...what exactly are they protesting. Just the banks? Cause Im seeing tons of "capitalism failed" videos.

Lots of things. There are lots of pissed off people with lots of issues. Capitalism as a whole and how it's managed, specific banks and their actions and lack of consequences for them, the role of corporate money in political elections, there's a whole range of things just radiating from the Wall Street American "free market" capitalist center.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Wait I thought they were protesting our capitalist system...what exactly are they protesting. Just the banks? Cause Im seeing tons of "capitalism failed" videos.

They are protesting the influence of mega corps on politics (especially banks), lack of informed and concrete action by Congress, by the failure of leadership on behalf of Obama, and various other things.

When they say "capitalism failed" they are likely talking about our iteration, and it is failing to meet the needs of most people. I think they'd be fine with European style capitalism.

 

[AiTM]

They are protesting the influence of mega corps on politics (especially banks), lack of informed and concrete action by Congress, by the failure of leadership on behalf of Obama, and various other things.

When they say "capitalism failed" they are likely talking about our iteration, and it is failing to meet the needs of most people. I think they'd be fine with European style capitalism.

uhhh

 

[Chichikov]

Wait I thought they were protesting our capitalist system...what exactly are they protesting. Just the banks? Cause Im seeing tons of "capitalism failed" videos.

They're protesting the current system, which is not the only flavor of capitalism.
For example, I'm pretty sure most will be very happy with a model like Sweden, which is still a capitalist society.
More specifically, they mostly protesting the fact that they feel that the government is serving the ultra-rich at the expense of everything else (at least the people I talked to, it's not speaking in single voice).

And sure, you're going to see simplistic signs like "capitalism failed" in a political rally, but that's par for the course.
I have not seen in any of the list of demands anything that would make Kanye unable to make his fortunes.

uhhh

Do you think they won't be happy or do you believe that there's no capitalism in Europe?
Because you would be wrong on both accounts.

 

[BobsRevenge]

They are protesting the influence of mega corps on politics (especially banks), lack of informed and concrete action by Congress, by the failure of leadership on behalf of Obama, and various other things.

When they say "capitalism failed" they are likely talking about our iteration, and it is failing to meet the needs of most people. I think they'd be fine with European style capitalism.

To be fair, there are a lot of weird people in these things. There are communists and hardcore libertarians. It's seems like a hodge-podge grouping of malcontents.

 

[alstein]

To be fair, there are a lot of weird people in these things. There are communists and hardcore libertarians. It's seems like a hodge-podge grouping of malcontents.

That's part of the problem- it's such a broad spectrum that it's hard to get agreement except over a few principles, and even how to fix won't be agreed on.

 

[Karma Kramer]

They're protesting the current system, which is not the only flavor of capitalism.
For example, I'm pretty sure most will be very happy with a model like Sweden, which is still a capitalist society.
More specifically, they mostly protesting the fact that they feel that the government is serving the ultra-rich at the expense of everything else (at least the people I talked to, it's not speaking in single voice).

And sure, you're going to see simplistic signs like "capitalism failed" in a political rally, but that's par for the course.
I have not seen in any of the list of demands anything that would make Kanye unable to make his fortunes.

Opponents of this are also generalizing these protestors as communists/anarchists.

Has there been any updates or statements made since their declaration?

 

[SouthernDragon]

uhhh

Europe, Australia, the U.S., Canada, Japan, and even places like China practice capitalism and socialism, just to varying degrees. All of them have regulated markets where people can exchange goods and services for personal gain, and all of them provide social nets that protect their citizens, to different extents.

 

[Chichikov]

Europe, Australia, the U.S., Canada, Japan, and even places like China practice capitalism and socialism, just to varying degrees. All of them have regulated markets where people can exchange goods and services for personal gain, and all of them provide social nets that protect their citizens, to different extents.

I agree with you 100% on the bottom line, but a small correction there -
The defining trait of capitalism is that the means of productions are privately held and run for profit.
Not so much the exchange of goods and services, which exists in many non-capitalist systems.

 

[SouthernDragon]

You're right on the bottom line, but a small correction there -
The defining trait of capitalism is that the means of productions are privately held and run for profit.
Not so much the exchange of goods and services, which exists in many non-capitalist systems.

Thank you. Brain not think so gud after reading academic journals all day.

 

[NullPointer]

Wait I thought they were protesting our capitalist system...what exactly are they protesting. Just the banks? Cause Im seeing tons of "capitalism failed" videos.

Unrestrained capitalism that privatizes profit and socializes risk. There is no accountability for defrauding the nation, and banking and finance money owns our political system and warps our elections.

 

[BobsRevenge]

This is so abusrd you can use a system to send your product to millions or billions of people, and protest the system that made it possible.

Different systems, though. Besides, if people can't buy his albums because they need to spend their money elsewhere, that's a problem for him.

Regardless, does it even mean anything to declare that Kanye is a hypocrite? He'll be the first to admit it. :lol

 

[Chichikov]

Unrestrained capitalism that privatizes profit and socializes risk. There is no accountability for defrauding the nation, and banking and finance money owns our political system and warps our elections.

The capitalism that we have is actually quite restrained in certain ways - from immigration through intellectual property to bankruptcy laws.
It's just restricted in a way that benefits certain people.

The greatest lie the so called pro-business crowd told is that the current system we have in place is the only true free market system, and any deviation from it is intervening in the natural order of things.

p.s.
Ha Joon Chang made this point much more eloquently than me in his great book 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism.
Highly recommended.

 

[Karma Kramer]

The capitalism that we have is actually quite restrained in certain ways - from immigration through intellectual property to bankruptcy laws.
It's just restricted in a way that benefits certain people.

The greatest lie the so called pro-business crowd told is that the current system we have in place is the only true free market system, and any deviation from it is intervening in the natural order of things.

p.s.
Ha Joon Chang made this point much more eloquently than me in his great book 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism.
Highly recommended.

Ron Paul has discussed the fascist state we are approaching or have already approached because of big businesses running the show... this has always confused me because he is all about free markets, which I thought entailed deregulation.

 

[FlyinJ]

I spent Saturday night and Sunday morning at our local Occupy. There were about 10-15 Libertarians there. I couldn't wrap my head around it. I asked them what they were there for, and they said to de-regulate everything. I asked them if they realized that was the exact opposite of what people were protesting, and they just shrugged.

Very strange.