Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw&feature=channel_video_title
A good watch for anybody and everybody in this thread. DAT FACTS.
A good watch for anybody and everybody in this thread. DAT FACTS.
Let me know what you think, as well as anybody else who watches it.demon said:
I probably couldn't get into an intricate policy debate and come out the winner when it comes to economics, but I do believe that political action (and the preceding discourse) should be a mechanism of achieving general social good and elevating human well-being.
CrocMother
Banned
People comparing US higher education system to those in Europe forget we have over 300 million people in our country.
rohlfinator
Member
Just watched that from a link in another thread (or earlier in this thread?) -- pretty thought-provoking stuff. Kinda crazy how it doesn't matter whether they have high max incomes/high taxation/welfare state or lower max incomes/low taxes/less welfare.MuseManMike said:
I'm interested in reading some of the other reports he mentioned, mainly to see what their theories are for the causal links in all of this.
Kosmo said:
Ding, ding, ding! Correct answer.
balladofwindfishes said:
Yep, because investing in the public sector and running massive deficits in part to fund huge social programs is working out so swell for nations like Greece.
Oh, and you aren't entitled to a better life that you don't earn for yourself. Stop expecting the government to prop everyone else up.
Fusebox said:
It's amazing to me that we've fostered an entire culture of depending on the government to wipe our asses for us. It's not in my best interest to saddle my future children and grandchildren with unimaginable levels of debt so I can sit around on the government dole.
C'mon Pre, you guys are already behind the rest of the world when it comes to social safety . You may not want the Govt to wipe your arse, but how about if Govt payed your kids medical bills when times were tough, wouldn't that interest you? Or would you really rather they focused on scaling back the EPA?
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
Pre said:
must be an easy argument to make. when talking about europe, just mention greece, europe doesn't work! At least bring your argument about Germany France the Netherlands or UK. You know, compare it to a working economy.
I like the way you think that a government propping you up is a 'better life'. Being on unemployment is a real 'oh man I've fucked this up' and need to work BADLY to have any decent lifestyle. The good thing about it is that you don't have to live in a cardboard box and suck dick for cash while you try and get back to work.
honestly your post stinks of privilege. I would love to hear your tune should you accidentally screw up your health insurance arrangement, then have your legs broken in a freak accident in america.
Working euro countries don't provide anyone a 'better life' than they earned for themselves, they ensure that the bottom (which must always exist, otherwise there is not a top) of society doesn't go so low as to drag the rest of us down.
empty vessel
Member
Pre said:
If I have to pay somebody to wipe my ass, I would prefer to do it in the most efficient way possible and that makes the most sense. Social programs are just a different way to arrange for the provision and payment of certain goods and services. It has nothing to do with debt and that you think that it does demonstrates remarkable ignorance. Why should anybody give you the time if day if you can't comprehend this? Your opinion borne of abject ignorance are utterly worthless.
x Power Pad Death Stomp x
Member
empty vessel said:
> things done in the most efficient way possible
> things done by the government
choose one
Alpha-Bromega
Member
oh this is great. America has unimaginable, comical, fantastical levels of debt trying to fund its laughably inefficient systems and propping up her banking cartels who knowingly spit on her own people.
But if you are going to single Greece out, sure, welp then i guess Europe failed, social safety nets and investments are nonexistent and equivalent SOMEHOW to the government wiping our asses, wow! good one! Congratulations, you are a worthless idealogue with no understanding of, let's say, Denmarks social-economic structure.
Never mind in no way does Greece's economic crisis have to do with the cost of their education system, but of greedy banking and investment houses bedded with government syphoning funds their way? sound familiar?
But if you are going to single Greece out, sure, welp then i guess Europe failed, social safety nets and investments are nonexistent and equivalent SOMEHOW to the government wiping our asses, wow! good one! Congratulations, you are a worthless idealogue with no understanding of, let's say, Denmarks social-economic structure.
Never mind in no way does Greece's economic crisis have to do with the cost of their education system, but of greedy banking and investment houses bedded with government syphoning funds their way? sound familiar?
SouthernDragon
Member
x Power Pad Death Stomp x said:
That choice is a load of horse shit.
travisbickle
Member
Pre said:
At the moment it is in the 1% best interest to saddle the 99% and their future children and grandchildren with unimaginable levels of debt. People on GAF are paying $250,000 dollars to go to university, how is that not unimaginable debt?
el retorno
Member
travisbickle said:
Because not every citizen is on the line for that debt. The person who took out the loan is.
The argument comes down to a different philosophy. Some people just don´t think its the government´s responsiblity to make sure your life is the best.
travisbickle
Member
el retorno de los sapos said:
"The best"?
affordable healthcare
affordable education
affordable housing
Basic human necessities, everybody needs them why shouldn't everyone have accessibility to them without going into massive debt/bankruptcy. It's not about providing the "best life for the individual" it's about a "better life for society".
x Power Pad Death Stomp x said:
I used to think that way until I realised the banks had consolidated the power foregone by the government. It's insidious because now democracy has been compromised. It's reached a point where the banks are able to protect themselves from the market and judicial forces thanks to their influence over the government. That isn't efficient. They've broken the financial system and as a result created an economy that moves up and down in massive booms and busts. Anything but the efficient small government Utopia predicted by the right wing.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
these are basic necessities, not handouts and ass wipings.
the correlation between healthcare and education as 'government wiping your ass' shows such a shitty, manufactured socialization, a bankrupt mindset that makes sure that nobody but those profitting off of our suffering and want are happy.
it's the very definition of false consciousness
the correlation between healthcare and education as 'government wiping your ass' shows such a shitty, manufactured socialization, a bankrupt mindset that makes sure that nobody but those profitting off of our suffering and want are happy.
it's the very definition of false consciousness
el retorno
Member
what do you thinking the government owes people in thoses things. We have food stamps, Medicare, mantitory ER care, public housing, free k-12 education. You want more. Our basic rights are looked after in those regards (health needs some more work, though i think the problem is cost I don't think were really THAT much worse of health care wise as in the fact that people live and can be health, its making some bankrupt but people aren't dying).travisbickle said:
What makes people turn off of you guys IMO is when you start talking university education and things that social democracies as a natural rights that should he in the constitution. Many people feel its not and that the government's OBLIGATIONS don't extend that far. Your talking about things that make life better but aren't necessary. Using "the best" didn't quite match what I'm trying to say but a better way would be its not the government's job to make your life free from any kind of hardship.
also questions arise with these rights. Do you think the government owes people a house when you say housing or just a bunk in a homeless shetler type place? Does ever one deserve Harvard or a crappy community college? How good of healthcare?etc.
Ill end be saying I'm not saying that some these things should not be done but to say their things we HAVE to do rubs people the wrong way and it does breed dependence on the government.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
el retorno de los sapos said:
You do understand, but I don't think you, that nobody said 'giving' these things out, right? AFFORDABLE is the key word here. In Germany at least, none of those things are 'given away', they are structured to be affordable. So that if you work, you can afford basic things, like yakno, healthcare.
In America they are comically expensive because of large structural greed embedded into financial and corporate institutions. Not much else than that. That's the aim of Occupy, to rid our society of these parasites.
And to say anything but our healthcare is a laughing stock is disrespectful as fuck to the millions who literally choose between being insured, and eating.
x Power Pad Death Stomp x said:
i choose neither
http://www.muninetworks.org/tags-111
If private enterprise cannot even compete with public options, how the hell are they more efficient? It's as someone else already said - horseshit.
Enron said:
The question isn't whether or not people need to have personal responsibility and make good choices for themselves. They do.
The question is whether we could structure our society in such a way that no degree would ever put a person in unmanageable debt, and we wouldn't spend nearly twice what most developed countries spend per capita on their healthcare systems.
Unless you think there's something uniquely wrong with us that makes us incapable of dealing with these issues efficiently, the answer to that second question should be yes.
travisbickle
Member
Enron said:
99% of the population of America couldn't afford that education without taking out a loan (going into debt) what are you saying? Prestigious university education is for the rich elite?
travisbickle said:
No, im saying your example sucks. You picked a $250k education as representative of the ridiculous costs of education. Anyone struggling because they had a 250k bill for college should have probably NOT purchased an education they couldn't afford.
Prestigious university education for the rich elite? No, these institutions offer assistance in the form of grants and scholarships for exceptional students who can't afford it. And there is nothing wrong with a more affordable university education.
You can get a university education fairly easily without going into massive debt at the tune of a quarter million dollars.
"Bu bu but I want to go to Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarvard!"
empty vessel
Member
x Power Pad Death Stomp x said:
Are you asking if I'm a brainwashed idiot who believes that government is invariably the least efficient means to accomplish some end?
MuseManMike said:
Quoting for new page. It's definitely worth a watch for anybody looking for insight on how important equity in income distribution is to their individual and their society's well-being.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
Enron said:
did you put 5 seconds of thought into this analogy?
because in this analogy, Timewrist costs $3,000
you're putting up horrible ill thought false equivalencies here, Harvard? i'm talking about my damn State University. We all are. Going to some Ivy League school is NOT AT ALL what we are talking about, you are bringing this up in some shitty attempt to portray those wanting affordable education as those wanting to go to Harvard? and drive Lambos? anything else you'd like to disingenously associate?
i'm using my critical thinking skills really hard! my forehead is even wrinkling up, and i still can't see how you are trying to use mental gymnastics to make these awful and erroneus connections.
Seriously, NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT PRESTIGIOUS BULLSHIT, we're talking about our State Universities. They are prohibitively expensive, this is a fact deducted simply by putting the equivalent of 1 and 2 together to get 3.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
In Enron's world it is not possible to overcharge for anything. If you overcharge for healthcare or education or energy the Free Market Gods perched high upon Mount Reagan smite you down.
BotoxAgent
Member
financial aid is a necessary good. My parents were immigrants not making that much at first, so I had to work hard all my life ....earning straight As and scoring high on my SATs...working a part time job to support myself, taking extra AP classes and staying overtime at school. And I ended getting accepted to a lot of good schools, and I earned it. And I am glad that I received some federal aid to help me attend the school I wanted and deserved. Now I graduated and have a great-paying job, and doing better than what my parents ever dreamed.
Good schools shouldn't just be exclusive to the currently affluent. Otherwise, the class inequality that exists in this country will just continue to widen if people's potential is neutered.
Good schools shouldn't just be exclusive to the currently affluent. Otherwise, the class inequality that exists in this country will just continue to widen if people's potential is neutered.
Alpha-Bromega said:
Im talking about the guy that said "people on GAF are paying $250k for an education! How is that fair???"
If you had bothered to read the last few posts, you'd have known that's what that was about.
A 250k dollar education (again, that the other poster brought up) is most certainly an Ivy League-level education, and would be akin to someone driving a Lambo when they couldn't afford one. You don't need a Lambo to get around in, just like you don't need a 250k education to get a good job.
"This BMW M5 put me 100k dollars into debt!!! How is that fair!!!!"
Alpha-Bromega said:
Since you seem to have missed it
travisbickle said:
Are you saying that a STATE UNIVERSITY is costing you upwards of 60k dollars a year? Because if so, you are full of fucking bullshit.
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