Official bitching about Hudson abandoning VC support. [VC/WiiWare = lost cause]

JavyOO7 said:
I'm very sorry that this question has been asked constantly, but can any of you recommend me three Genesis games to buy? Thats the system I will be concentrating on for the VC at the moment (I just beat Punch Out on the NES for the first time, sweet!), and also I've never had a Genesis.

I like shooters, I'm fine with RPG's and fighters and love plat formers (don't need to recommend me Sonic I have the collection on GCN).

Gunstar Heroes(shooter), Streets of Rage 3(beatemup)...though most people are partial to the second game, Landstalker(Action-adventure), Beyond Oasis(Action-adventure), Dynamite Headdy(action-platformer), Shinobi 3(action-platformer) and Alien Soldier(shooter) are IMO the best Genesis games currently available.

Though Landstalker might be a bit frustrating since all of the Wii-compatible pads lack diagonal inputs.

For pure platformers you're kind of limited. Things would be different if Pulseman was available in the US(awesome game) but your choices are Alex Kidd and Kid Chameleon. Alex Kidd is horrible and Kid Chameleon is pretty decent...though I wouldn't recommend it all that much.
 
PepsimanVsJoe said:
Though Landstalker might be a bit frustrating since all of the Wii-compatible pads lack diagonal inputs.

Wait, you're telling me my classic controller doesn't have 8 direction d-pad?? It's really not Landstalker that doesn't take diagonal inputs?
 
Kid Chameleon is decent as far as gameplay goes, but I never knew wtf I was doing.. there's so many different levels and warps and stuff, and it seemed like I was always in "Elsewhere" and never really knew if I was moving forward or backward.
 
JavyOO7 said:
I'm very sorry that this question has been asked constantly, but can any of you recommend me three Genesis games to buy? Thats the system I will be concentrating on for the VC at the moment (I just beat Punch Out on the NES for the first time, sweet!), and also I've never had a Genesis.

I like shooters, I'm fine with RPG's and fighters and love plat formers (don't need to recommend me Sonic I have the collection on GCN).

Action:

- The Streets of Rage series
- Golden Axe (avoid the sequels - they're lame)
- Gunstar Heroes
- Ghouls & Ghosts
- Rolling Thunder 2
- Space Harrier II (very simplistic and a pure guilty pleasure on my part, so know what you're getting into)
- Alien Storm (ditto)
- Alien Soldier (people claim to love this, and I tried to, but the difficulty is unforgiving - a disappointing experience for me, unfortunately)
- Comix Zone (HARD, but very unique - there's nothing else like it)
- Shinobi III

Platformer:

- Dynamite Headdy (haven't played this myself, but it's supposed to be good)
- Kid Chameleon (weird but good)
- Alex Kidd (I disagree with the other poster that it's horrible; it's very good, just hard)

RPG:

- Beyond Oasis (haven't played this myself, but it looks like a nice Zelda clone and it has always gotten favorable reviews)
- Phantasy Star II (don't know how well this has aged, but it was great back in the day - Phantasy Star III is also on the system, but most people dislike that one)

BTW, if you have a PS2, a lot of these games are already available on the Sega Genesis Collection.

For more references (including ratings), here's the full list of Genesis games currently on the North American VC:

http://www.vc-reviews.com/games?region=usa&system=megadrive&players=&genre=&publisher=&submit=Filter
 
webrunner said:
So in the interest of fostering developer help, Wiiware got called wiiware, but as a result people are complaining that there aren't any VC games this week. Although it's a technically correct assessment, it makes no sense in terms of any actual reason to be upset about it.

1. Any VC game they released this week would have lower sales from people buying Wiiware titles
2. Any Wiiware title would have lower sales due to the VC games released that week
This is the part where we disagree. I think that good lineups for VC and WiiWare would help promote the other rather than cannibalize the other, due to the nature of Wii Points denominations. If a long-time game fan had 700 points sitting around and Nintendo had released some good game on SNES or Genesis, that person would have to buy (at minimum) 1000 more points, leaving them with 900 remaining. With that, they could buy Pop or Defend Your Castle. Or if a person wanted My Life as a King (with no extras), they'd have to buy at least 2000 points, leaving the perfect amount for an NES or Master System game.

Besides that, if you really buy into this argument of VC and WiiWare taking away from one another, then your argument actually paints Nintendo in an even worse light than mine. I'm (explicitly) claiming that they made a mistake for this one week by not releasing both VC and WiiWare games. You're (implicitly) claiming that this coming Monday will be a mistake since NOA is releasing games of both types, and that every subsequent Monday they do so will also be a mistake.

3. You're still getting more new downloadable games off the Wii Shop then you ever have except launch. That they're all new should be a GOOD thing.

If someone says "Check out this brand new Ferrari" you don't say "Yeah but it's not a 15 year old scooter"
That's a strange analogy, considering that I've bought dozens of "scooters" on VC that I enjoyed more than the "Ferraris" of LostWinds and Defend Your Castle combined.

No exaggeration here. Even if I exclude games I had played before via purchase/friend/rental/relative/whatever, that would still leave Gunstar Heroes, Super Star Soldier, Soldier Blade, Ristar, Beyond Oasis, Dragon's Curse, Wonder Boy in Monster World, Streets of Rage 2, Blazing Lazers, Shining Force, Adventures of Lolo, Neutopia, Landstalker, Neutopia II, Sin and Punishment, Gate of Thunder, The Dynastic Hero, Adventures of Lolo 2, Lords of Thunder, DoReMi Fantasy, Contra III, Mega Turrican, and River City Ransom, which is only one game short of "dozens."


Even putting that aside, Hudson has said in various interviews that they look at VC sales as a decent indicator for which of their series may still carry enough weight to be eligible for a revival. Other companies likely feel the same. Supporting smaller developers with WiiWare is fantastic and--don't get me wrong--I think WiiWare is the second best thing Wii has going for it. However, there's also something to be said for supporting a series made by a larger developer who actually have the resources to produce sequels.



Javy007 said:
I'm very sorry that this question has been asked constantly, but can any of you recommend me three Genesis games to buy? Thats the system I will be concentrating on for the VC at the moment (I just beat Punch Out on the NES for the first time, sweet!), and also I've never had a Genesis.

I like shooters, I'm fine with RPG's and fighters and love plat formers (don't need to recommend me Sonic I have the collection on GCN).
I dug up YouTube links to everything I've downloaded so far, so check them out. My top picks are bolded, though Shining Force just barely misses top draw, but basically it all boils down to your genre preference. (Though I will say many of us in here are waiting for Shining Force II, knowing it was ESRB-rated virtual eons ago. :/ And most everybody testifies that it's far better than its predecessor, so... Yeah. That would probably be my absolute top pick if it was actually available, but it isn't.)

If I absolutely have to boil it down to three, make them Gunstar Heroes (run 'n' gun), Streets of Rage 2 (beat-em-up), and Wonder Boy in Monster World (sidescrolling action RPG).

Still, a note on Wonder Boy: there's a TGCD version of this same game, The Dynastic Hero. Same price and it has CD-quality music and a last boss who's a whole lot less insane, but the main character of TDH looks pretty strange compared to Wonder Boy and TDH takes up over 200 more blocks than WB. So weigh those pros and cons against each other. If it's not your thing at all (or if you decide you want to pick up TDH instead, after getting into TG16 games), then I'd say go with Landstalker instead. Assuming you have a classic controller or GC controller, anyway. If neither, Landstalker's basically a dead option to you. You'll need an analog stick for better diagonal improvement--pretty important in a game where literally everything is diagonal.
 
I was about to mention Phantasy Star IV since it's really pretty great, but that and Ristar can be found on PS2/PSP anyway in the Sega Genesis Collection, along with a couple dozen other games, for only $22 more than the price of a single VC game. Might as well just go that route.
 
I'd rather just have it on the Wii as I have most of those other games in one form or another. No disc, able to use Wiimote, etc, etc.
 
I was going to buy Landstalker yesterday when my Wii informs me that I don't have enough space left. I just turned the console off after that.
 
Vargas said:
I was going to buy Landstalker yesterday when my Wii informs me that I don't have enough space left. I just turned the console off after that.

How does it work when you don't have enough space? You just have to delete things for a bit, but you can redownload them for free later?
 
cpro said:
How does it work when you don't have enough space? You just have to delete things for a bit, but you can redownload them for free later?

Yes you can always redownload them. Or put the game on a SDcard. If you put the game on the SDcard though, do not format your Wii System Memory because you will have to redownload the game.
 
Ranger X said:
Yes you can always redownload them. Or put the game on a SDcard. If you put the game on the SDcard though, do not format your Wii System Memory because you will have to redownload the game.

So do SD cards function like an extension of the hard drive, or can some things only run off of the internal memory?
 
Man God said:
I'd rather just have it on the Wii as I have most of those other games in one form or another. No disc, able to use Wiimote, etc, etc.
Well, Javy did say he had the Sonic games on GC, so admittedly there goes a big portion of the non-Phantasy Star, non-Ristar appeal that the Genesis Collection has. But he never had a Genesis, so trying out a wider range of games might be in his best interest.



cpro said:
So do SD cards function like an extension of the hard drive
If only.
:( :( :(
 
cpro said:
How does it work when you don't have enough space? You just have to delete things for a bit, but you can redownload them for free later?

When you buy a game from the wii store (VC or wiiware) you're basically buying a license to play that game on your specific wii system. So after buying it, you can delete it, copy it to an SD card, or redownload it as often as you want.
 
Jiggy37 said:
Well, Javy did say he had the Sonic games on GC, so admittedly there goes a big portion of the non-Phantasy Star, non-Ristar appeal that the Genesis Collection has. But he never had a Genesis, so trying out a wider range of games might be in his best interest.

It's been awhile but isn't Ristar on SMC? Or was it on the other one?

Either way I love the Wiimote for most Genny games and all RPGs.
 
Man God said:
It's been awhile but isn't Ristar on SMC? Or was it on the other one?
I believe it's on Sonic Mega Collection, but as someone who's owned it for years I never unlocked it. It takes going into all the games many times to unlock further games, and then going into those games many times to unlock Ristar. Seriously hours of stuff to do if that's all you were doing; countless more if each enter into a game was actually used for playtime.
 
JavyOO7 said:
I'm very sorry that this question has been asked constantly, but can any of you recommend me three Genesis games to buy? Thats the system I will be concentrating on for the VC at the moment (I just beat Punch Out on the NES for the first time, sweet!), and also I've never had a Genesis.

I like shooters, I'm fine with RPG's and fighters and love plat formers (don't need to recommend me Sonic I have the collection on GCN).

good job on beating punchout i never could beat tyson back in the day now i gotta beat mr dream. as far as genesis if you feel like playing a really good platformer pick up ristar
 
Jammy said:
It's as sound as regular releases in the console market are. Notice how last year Nintendo had a typical pace of releasing one game a month for Wii. Or notice how SSBB is coming out in Europe at the end of June now. It's just a typical business model. Nintendo wants to maximize sales of previously-released games before they put out more games that could potentially cannibalize sales of others.

I believe in SSBB's case, Nintendo knows how much software's selling on Wii right now, and also realized they released Wii Fit and Mario Kart Wii within weeks of each other, and should be able to rely on those sales for a month or two more.

With the VC/WiiWare, if everything was put up on day one, people would head straight for the Super Mario Bros 3s, the Earthbounds, the Kirby Super Star, etc. and the smaller games would get no recognition at all.

I mean, I don't think people would take a second look at River City Ransom or Pokemon Puzzle League if a huge VC library was initially released. But now people, especially here, see the weekly update includes that game, maybe gets intrigued, looks up some old videos of it, and now decide they want it.

Oh, and small third parties get their brief time in the limelight... yadda-yadda-yadda.

Just needs to be repeated with all the crazy lunatics in here without a business degree or know how.
 
crowphoenix said:
If we let you dream, you eventually have to wake up. :D

I won't have to when Earthbound comes on Monday! :D

So do our former insiders not get the PR early anymore, or are they just not allowed to tell under pain of Nintendo Ninja assassination?
 
BTRA said:
Just needs to be repeated with all the crazy lunatics in here without a business degree or know how.
If you've got a business degree or know how, or for any other reason are able to explain why anyone's counterarguments don't hold up logically, then maybe you should do so. That sounds to me like a slightly more constructive route than blanket mockery aimed toward nobody-even-knows-who.


Here are some of the counterarguments, as a refresher:



Nintendo wants to maximize sales of previously-released games before they put out more games that could potentially cannibalize sales of others.
Due to the way Wii Points are distributed, a majority of VC purchases will leave extra points remaining on a buyer's system. Buying any one game purchase implicitly involves some promotion toward the idea of buying other games, for the same reason that coupons give incentives for future purchases; people frequently want to spend as much as is available to them, given that what's available to them isn't redeemable in any other way.

Also, Iwata claimed recently--I believe it was in one of those reports at the end of the fiscal year?--that sales for Virtual Console games go up in a slower and more long-term manner than retail releases, which sell a great deal initially and then taper off. If that's the case, it stands to reason that it doesn't hurt to put up more than one or two games per week, since the importance of sales at the exact release date is reduced.


With the VC/WiiWare, if everything was put up on day one, people would head straight for the Super Mario Bros 3s, the Earthbounds, the Kirby Super Star, etc. and the smaller games would get no recognition at all.

I mean, I don't think people would take a second look at River City Ransom or Pokemon Puzzle League if a huge VC library was initially released.
By the time River City Ransom and Pokemon Puzzle League were made available, a huge VC library had shored up over time--a library that includes Super Mario Bros. 3 along with many games that were far more commercially-successful than Earthbound and Kirby Super Star, such as the rest of the 2D Mario platformers, the Sonic series, the Legend of Zelda series, the Donkey Kong Country series, and Mario Kart 64. Whether all of these games had been released in November 2006 or arrived over a period of more than a year makes no difference to RCR and PPL in the here and now; they would be competing with that full back catalog either way.

Let's note that there are hundreds of thousands of new Wii owners each month in the US alone--more than 700,000 new ones in April, as we just saw. Any new release is being "cannibalized" at least to a certain extent, because those who didn't get a chance to buy a Wii for a long while inevitably end up looking at the back catalog in its entirety the first time they take a glance into the Shop Channel.

But I would see it as irrational if someone used this fact as a basis to mount up a theory that Nintendo should have released games slower than they did throughout 2006 and 2007. River City Ransom might have sold to more people if Nintendo only put out one game each week for 2007, but nobody is saying in hindsight that they wish that had been Nintendo's path or that three-game weeks were just too sizable a flood of gaming goodness. (On the contrary: in 2007 people complained about Wii's software drought almost on a monthly basis, from Twilight Princess to Super Paper Mario, and then from Super Paper Mario to Metroid Prime 3.)

And yet here in 2008, for some reason, people are putting forward roughly tantamount arguments by defending an exceptionally-slowed-down release schedule. You can't have it both ways. Either three games per week were too many because they were cannibalizing each other throughout 2007 and those two months of 2006, or one game per week is too few because simultaneous releases aren't hurting one another as much as some people seem to believe.



[I'll say this. With systems such as SNES, Genesis, PS1, GBA, PS2, and DS, the only context in which I ever saw anyone complain about too many games being released was when too many games were being released simultaneously--generally in November or December--and the person in question couldn't afford them all. But that issue is much less relevant and less likely with Virtual Console for two reasons. First, VC games are nowhere near as cost-prohibitive as retail releases; anyone who couldn't handle six or seven VC games worth downloading in a single month wouldn't likely have been the type to spend $250 on a system in the first place. Second, a major reason that it's such a problem to see numerous retail releases close to each other is that it's expedient--if not pivotal--to buy a retail game in relatively short order due to a limited shelf life. VC has no such problem. Any game a person could take interest in but be unable to afford for a while--if $5-10 is somehow just too overwhelming--could be bought at any later date.]


Oh, and small third parties get their brief time in the limelight... yadda-yadda-yadda.
There aren't many small third-parties who have made games available on Virtual Console. Out of the 244 games available between Europe and North America, 159 of them were from either Capcom, D4, Factor 5, Hudson, Konami, Namco, Sega, Square-Enix (including Taito), or Tecmo (third-parties, but not small ones), and 61 more were from Nintendo (including HAL). I don't know the sizes of some of the other publishers, like Aksys, Irem, G-mode, or Commodore Gaming, but even if I go ahead and assume they're all small, a defense predicated on helping 24 games out of 244 seems like a stretch to me.
 
Capndrake said:
You got no VC games this week, yes. Just 6 WiiWare games.

Now that is just sad

Cosmonaut X said:
Only if you're in the US. Both Japan and Europe are still getting decent releases each week (and Europeans are currently enjoying the second Hanabi Festival, so that means plenty of import titles).

A more accurate title would be:

The Horrible Un-Awesome VC Discussion of ZERO Games This Week (in America)

But I'm in the US D:
 
Square-Enix on VC:
JP: You mentioned in your speech that you initially saw the Virtual Console as the main competition for WiiWare. To date, Square Enix hasn't really participated too much in the Virtual Console. I think you have a few games available for the system. Is that something you're looking more into, or something you've tried to do and Nintendo has been hands-off with it?

TT: We don't think the games and the IP that we have have lost value yet, so we haven't decided if releasing them on VC is the best idea.

JP: So you feel that releasing older games for the Virtual Console suggests that they're not as valuable anymore?

TT: It's a matter of the package -- which is downloading. You look at a game, and you have to decide whether it will be better to be sold in a retail store, or if it will be better for download. We're making that decision carefully for each of the games that we have. It comes down to the games that we think we could make a good remake of haven't been on VC yet.
Source: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3655/content_kings_square_enixs_.php?page=6
 
Jiggy37 said:
I was about to mention Phantasy Star IV since it's really pretty great, but that and Ristar can be found on PS2/PSP anyway in the Sega Genesis Collection, along with a couple dozen other games, for only $12 more than the price of a single VC game. Might as well just go that route.

Fixed.
 
"It comes down to the games that we think we could make a good remake of haven't been on VC yet."

E.V.O. DS/WiiWare confirmed!


... :(

Seriously though, that's a whole lot of games.
 
So I just downloaded the N64 Yoshi game and um.. yeah. I remembered it being a whole lot better than it actually is. I should have downloaded Lost Winds instead.
 
Blueblur1 said:
So I just downloaded the N64 Yoshi game and um.. yeah. I remembered it being a whole lot better than it actually is. I should have downloaded Lost Winds instead.
Yoshi's Story claims yet another victim!
 
SkyKid.gif

StarSoldierR.gif

CritterRoundup.gif


This was all I could find. I was very thorough.
 
I want to play the greatest game ever made again (SMB3). But I can't decide if I should buy the VC release of the original or the updated GBA one? I would like some suggestions, please.
 
TheGrayGhost said:
I want to play the greatest game ever made again (SMB3). But I can't decide if I should buy the VC release of the original or the updated GBA one? I would like some suggestions, please.

I haven't played the GBA one. But my opinion has always been that the original 8-bit graphics are superior to the Super Mario All Stars graphics, which I imagine the GBA version is based on, that add unnecessary background elements and destroy some of the elegance.

More generally, SMB3 is a perfect game in no need of 'updates.'
 
leroy hacker said:
I haven't played the GBA one. But my opinion has always been that the original 8-bit graphics are superior to the Super Mario All Stars graphics, which I imagine the GBA version is based on, that add unnecessary background elements and destroy some of the elegance.

More generally, SMB3 is a perfect game in no need of 'updates.'

I think I agree with you on the aesthetic, but the supposedly "substantially" superior sound of the GBA update is swaying me.
 
What's happened to VC? It's gone from full of win and awesome to complete and utter tumbleweed.

Is WiiWare to blame? Nintendo shifting focus?
 
pswii60 said:
Is WiiWare to blame? Nintendo shifting focus?

Most definately. Until NOA runs the initial Wiiware lineup down I think VC will be mighty barren. Once that pool starts drying up I think they'll switch back to the VC backlog.
 
pswii60 said:
What's happened to VC? It's gone from full of win and awesome to complete and utter tumbleweed.

Is WiiWare to blame? Nintendo shifting focus?

Looks like they're lumping everything together for releasing. I doubt we're guaranteed at least one VC game a week now. We'll get either on WiiWare title or on VC game.
 
i hope VC is still alive because they haven't re-released Majora's Mask yet and the GC version had assy emulation. i also can't stand how awful the N64 games look with composite cables and 320x240 (emulation and component help a lot)
 
Luigison said:
Square-Enix on VC:
P: You mentioned in your speech that you initially saw the Virtual Console as the main competition for WiiWare. To date, Square Enix hasn't really participated too much in the Virtual Console. I think you have a few games available for the system. Is that something you're looking more into, or something you've tried to do and Nintendo has been hands-off with it?

TT: We don't think the games and the IP that we have have lost value yet, so we haven't decided if releasing them on VC is the best idea.

JP: So you feel that releasing older games for the Virtual Console suggests that they're not as valuable anymore?

TT: It's a matter of the package -- which is downloading. You look at a game, and you have to decide whether it will be better to be sold in a retail store, or if it will be better for download. We're making that decision carefully for each of the games that we have. It comes down to the games that we think we could make a good remake of haven't been on VC yet.
Source: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3655/content_kings_square_enixs_.php?page=6
I hate Square Enix. Seems like a backward minded business decision if I've ever seen one. Profit is profit. People want the games. I don't see the problem. Charge 2000 points if you have to. Just give your customers the opportunity to pay you and receive your product for christ's sake.
 
Dragmire said:
I hate Square Enix. Seems like a backward minded business decision if I've ever seen one. Profit is profit. People want the games. I don't see the problem. Charge 2000 points if you have to. Just give your customers the opportunity to pay you and receive your product for christ's sake.

It makes perfect sense from a business perspective. They're used to re-releasing their old IPs over and over, with little-to-no effort required... for full prices.

Look at what they did for FFI and FFII on PSP. Or the GBA games.

If they were on Wii, they'd be $5 or $8 respectively - or, even if it was one of the 'special' games which are higher priced, $6 and $9.

This devalues IPs that are still holding strong and selling, despite being overvalued low effort cash-ins. "If I can buy this on virtual console for $6, why the fuck would I pay $20?"
 
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