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[subzero9285]

.

 

[dalin80]

If the situation is under control its still far from ideal, alonso now has to stretch his engines to almost 3 races a piece.

Several years ago a toyota chief said that you lose about 50bhp per race run on an engine, things may be very tight towards the end of the season for alonso.

Iam also hoping that macca can give hamilton a few more tenths a lap i ve got a horrible feeling that its only lewis that has enough drive at the moment to stop the red bull taking a race win in every race until the end of the season.

 

[Jinjo]

If the situation is under control its still far from ideal, alonso now has to stretch his engines to almost 3 races a piece.

Several years ago a toyota chief said that you lose about 50bhp per race run on an engine, things may be very tight towards the end of the season for alonso.

Iam also hoping that macca can give hamilton a few more tenths a lap i ve got a horrible feeling that its only lewis that has enough drive at the moment to stop the red bull taking a race win in every race until the end of the season.

Alonso has only lost one engine actually. The team is allowed to allocate the engines throughout the season as they see fit. The Bahrain engine wasn't broken or anything, the change was more a precaution. They still have the engine. Sort out the problem and they can use it for another (less demanding) race.

The stop in the middle of the season with developing trend is getting quite stupid. Mercedes is up there and they want to risk losing it all by starting development for next year when there aren't any major rule changes? Brawn GP had the succes because the other big teams got caught up in the championship fight, the massive rule changes and Honda started what, 2 years early? It would be stupid to give up a regular contender for the podiums if you don't get a win by june. Look at 2008: Kubica only got one win and was right there until the end. Last year is also an example, McLaren did not stop/give up developing the car and they got multiple wins at the end and the car for this year wasn't comprimised, they actually benefitted from the continueing development.

 

[DrM]

Ferrari to incorporate F-duct soon

Source

This will be interesting to see. F-duct is quite easy to incorporate, as we seen with Sauber but will it bring results? Mclaren worked for whole winter on this system.

Newey on F-Duct:

"We are looking at the F-duct. We have understood how it works, but to get it to work properly is another thing. We don't know when we can take it to the track.
"The difficult thing is that McLaren has designed the chassis around that system, but the rules prevent you from modifying the chassis. Every new thing has to be included in the current structure."

Autosport

Oh Mclaren is also using modified wheel bolts and they will probably introduce ride height adjustment system in China. Whitmarsh is very optimistic for next GP.

@ Jinjo: there will be one major change - bye bye double/triple/quadruple decker diffusors. I still think that major Barcelona upgrade will bring Mercedes to the front. But, as blind man said, we will see.

 

[Jinjo]

Yeah, the diffusers will change, but that's probably the only change. (unless they want to introduce bigger rear tires, which is a way bigger change) It won't change things like the weight distribution of the car like the fuel tanks did this year. Although they'd probably like to change around the free weight with less rear downforce, but I'm not an engineer so I don't really know. :lol Either way it's not like the 09 rulechanges where they had to design an entirely new car. When your car is an absolute dog and you are fighting for P14 or something at best I can understand, but Nico is bringing the fight to the big guys. Stopping the development would be a big disservice to him.

McLaren is the team to beat when it concerns new developments though. The rate at which they upgrade (and actually improve) the car is unbelievable. They will bring the fight to Red Bull in China. It would be quite funny if Red Bull actually didn't have a ride-height system like they claim and McLaren would be the first to introduce it. :lol If they get their qualifying performance up to speed they will be able to seriously threaten Red Bull as their racepace is among the best. Their F-duct will also remain the better one as the others have to build it around their current chassis, as Newey indicates.

Ferrari and Mercedes will follow in Barcelona. They won't sit still.

 

[marvelharvey]

I don't know if it's the clouds, lighting or motion blur, but I thought this was a game at first glance. The only thing that convinced me otherwise was that it wasn't covered in PissFilter™.

 

[Jinjo]

Well it seems McLaren *is* going to be the first one to implement the ride height system.:lol

Red Bull denies active suspension claims

By Jonathan Noble Monday, April 5th 2010, 12:15 GMT

Red Bull Racing is adamant that it is not running a trick form of active suspension and is prepared to protest any rival that tries to run such a system at future grands prix.

The qualifying pace of the RB6 this season has prompted suggestions that the outfit could be using a clever damper system to lower the car for its qualifying laps.

There has even been talk in the paddock that Red Bull may be using compressed gas to push the car down for qualifying, before the gas is released - through time or a temperature change – to then allow the car to run higher for the race when a heavy fuel load needs to be added.

The team has consistently denied that it is doing anything like this – with the FIA giving the car the all-clear after a detailed inspection at Sepang on Saturday night – but rival outfits, including McLaren, are looking at introducing their own suspension systems soon to improve their qualifying form.

Horner has warned, however, that any design that changes suspension settings between qualifying and the race is illegal.

"We haven't got one, it is as simple as that," said Horner about the continued 'active ride' suspicions that have circulated the paddock.

"If McLaren have one in China we will protest them, because theoretically they are illegal. The FIA had a good look at our car [in Malaysia] on Saturday night and they are happy with it – they will struggle to find anything because there simply isn't anything there."

It is understood that the FIA is considering ending the prospect of an expensive spending war between teams creating complex suspension systems that help optimise the car for both qualifying and the race, by allowing outfits to make a single change to ride heights between Saturday and Sunday.

Such a move would require a change in the technical regulations and therefore need unanimous support among the teams – something that sources have suggested is unlikely.

Horner said Red Bull would have no problem in backing the FIA's push – which would end all allegations about his team doing something clever with its suspension.

"I would support it, as it would probably save us a bit of money," he said.

Source

I love the technical fights in F1. This is what it should be about. Developing cutting edge technology to outperform your rivals. McLaren has the right approach, instead of whining just do it too or in this case, do it yourself.:lol

 

[navanman]

Well it seems McLaren *is* going to be the first one to implement the ride height system.:lol



Source

I love the technical fights in F1. This is what it should be about. Developing cutting edge technology to outperform your rivals. McLaren has the right approach, instead of whining just do it too or in this case, do it yourself.:lol

Yeah love this. Red Bull are denying that they have an "active suspension" but this could all be down to wording. They deny active suspension and something that changes the suspension but they could be using another system.

There is plenty of evidence that they are doing something. It looks like the FIA could intervene and allow a suspension change between qualifying and the race for all teams.

 

[Leunam]

I enjoyed the race up until Hamilton stopped beasting and got stuck behind Sutil. And so much for the C29 staying intact.

 

[Jinjo]

Yeah love this. Red Bull are denying that they have an "active suspension" but this could all be down to wording. They deny active suspension and something that changes the suspension but they could be using another system.

There is plenty of evidence that they are doing something. It looks like the FIA could intervene and allow a suspension change between qualifying and the race for all teams.

I think you are right. The key is probably the "active" bit. Active indicates that a person changes the suspension by performing an action. Their system is probably passive in a way that the ride height changes according to the weight of the car or something, so there is no person or activity involved in the change in rideheight.

The FIA intervening would be the pussy way out. They need all the teams' approval and that's not going to happen too.

 

[Dibbz]

I've heard people talking about RB suspension trickery but does anyone have evidence that they are using something?

 

[AndyD]

It was fairly obvious listening to the engine.

It sounded like it always fell to neutral, not broken. So he had to shift up every time. Great drive although I think he should have relaxed with the last 5-10 laps to go to at least save what he could of the car.

I've heard people talking about RB suspension trickery but does anyone have evidence that they are using something?

Its not trickery per se.

I think they acknowledged they are using a mechanical solution, not an electronic solution which is definitely banned. Which is why they said they would welcome a clarification if it came.

Same with the diffusers, the fancy solutions aren't technically not allowed, they are just working within the rules but pushing the envelope in a more creative way.

 

[avaya]

I've heard people talking about RB suspension trickery but does anyone have evidence that they are using something?

When Brawn, Newey and Tombazis all say they are doing it, then they are doing it. The entire paddock knows what they're doing, secrets never stay secrets for long.

The only one I can remember that managed to stay so for a decent time was the F2002 Apache Longbow blade based floor. That had them all confused for a long time (in F1 terms = 3 months), they knew the speed came from the floor but they couldn't work it out till they picked up on it as the Ferrari's attacked the Variante Alta at Imola and Patrick Head noticed.

Renault Mass Damper was also another one but we had multiple teams try to copy it before McLaren decided to protest it to the FIA back in mid-2006.

 

[malsumis]

I don't know if it's the clouds, lighting or motion blur, but I thought this was a game at first glance. The only thing that convinced me otherwise was that it wasn't covered in PissFilter™.[/QUOTE]
Shitty grass textures and there are the damn 2D trees :P Otherwise nice screenshot. [spoiler]could not resist[/spoiler]

 

[AndyD]

I've heard people talking about RB suspension trickery but does anyone have evidence that they are using something?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82741

A semi answer.

 

[TylerD]

And thus begins F1 suspension war 2010!

I love it!

 

[curls]

Red Bull heavies on the grid.

 

[subzero9285]

.

 

[avaya]

I don't know why any of them do that. You can take all the photo's you need while the car is on track. Everyone has seen the car. This behaviour is more for show than anything else.

 

[Jinjo]

I don't know why any of them do that. You can take all the photo's you need while the car is on track. Everyone has seen the car. This behaviour is more for show than anything else.

This was posted before during testing, but this was probably the most ridiculous thing I've seen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPqm7RjgtVY

 

[TylerD]

I don't know why any of them do that. You can take all the photo's you need while the car is on track. Everyone has seen the car. This behaviour is more for show than anything else.

This is exactly what I thought. I found it to be quite funny.

 

[AcridMeat]

The guy on the far left reminds me of Gandhi from Clone High. :lol

I find it funny that teams do this as well, as the secret isn't exactly secret anymore. Interesting to learn more about the F-duct system. McLaren seems to have been extremely clever with their work in the winter.

 

[navanman]

Looks like the war of words between RBR and McLaren has forced the FIA's hand.
Did McLaren really have a system in place for China or were they trying to call the RBR bluff?

After two races of inter team accusations, the FIA have moved to outlaw any suspension system that aims to adjust ride height in between qualifying and the race. According to Autosport, the FIA have confirmed “Any system device or procedure, the purpose and/or effect of which is to change the set-up of the suspension, while the car is under Parc Fermé conditions will be deemed to contravene art 34.5* of the sporting regulations”.

It’s been believed, but never proven that several teams had found ways to correct the cars static ride height to cope with both low fuel qualifying and the more heavy fuelled race. McLaren were vocal in suggesting one of the teams was Red Bull and announced they themselves would have such a system ready for the Chinese race. Red bull of course refuted all of these allegations, stating that none of the solutions rumoured were in use on their car as they would be illegal within Parc Fermé conditions. Its not clear whether McLaren's plans to run such a system were true, or a simply prompt for the FIA to act. They took this approach to the alleged Ferrari movable front splitter, asking the FIA for permission to run such a system in 2007.

This is not a rule change, but what is known as a clarification, these often go unpublished but are happening all the time. A Clarification is the FIA’s way of explaining how they see a rule being interpreted. In this case they see the teams interpretation of a rule conflicts with theirs and send out the clarification. If a team does not accept this, then they have to present their car to scrutineering at the next race. The stewards will make a decision if they feel the car is within the rules and any relevant clarifications. If this means the car is considered outside of the regulations, then the team appeal and the case will go to court to decide.

If teams have found a way to circumvent the spirit of the Parc Fermé rules, they will of course have to qualify with a compromised set up from now on. This is bond to have a small effect on their comparative performance between qualifying and the race.

ScarbF1 blog

 

[navanman]

Did you know that FIA scrutineering checks are carried out by the teams themselves? Seems like a bit suspect doesn't it? A team with a suspected illegal ride-height mechanism checks their own car and says it all OK?

Scrutineering:
Ever wondered how they test whether the cars are legal? After every race the F1 cars have to be checked over to make sure that they comply with the regulations. But the pre-race legality checks are not carried out by the FIA, they are carried out by the teams themselves. It is up to them to make sure that their car is legal before the action starts.

The teams have to ensure that the bodywork fits the dimensional templates supplied in the FIA garage. The cars are weighed, the track width is checked, as are bodywork dimensions like the size of the front and rear wings and the front wing height. Teams have just 10 minutes for each car to check that it is legal. Typically they do this on a Thursday evening. And they had better get it right because once the action starts the FIA technical delegate Jo Bauer can check a car whenever he wants and if it doesn’t comply it can be disqualified.

All the FIA do pre-event is to check that the safety features are in working order, things like the monocoque, the electricity kill switch, the rear light and the fire extinguisher.

 

[Dead Man]

Looks like the war of words between RBR and McLaren has forced the FIA's hand.
Did McLaren really have a system in place for China or were they trying to call the RBR bluff?



ScarbF1 blog

Goddamnit! Stop stifling innovation you twats. It was not like it was some strange material that would cost tens of millions, it was a simple, clever system that would have been cheap (relatively) to implement for other teams. Just let some new ideas in, you bastards.

 

[duckroll]

Goddamnit! Stop stifling innovation you twats. It was not like it was some strange material that would cost tens of millions, it was a simple, clever system that would have been cheap (relatively) to implement for other teams. Just let some new ideas in, you bastards.

This isn't a case of a team inventing something that other teams did not think of though, it's something Red Bull has denied using and admits themselves that such a device would be illegal according to the rules. The only team which has admitted to actually wanting to use such a system so far is McLaren themselves, and that's believe to be a bluff to simply get the rules clarified. As such, no team has actually admitted to doing this, which makes it very different from the double diffuser incident of last season. In that case, they were ruled legal.

 

[DieH@rd]

surprisingly i gained a place. thought my setup wasn't all that hot

I jumped two places up. Its too bad, i want to get rid of Trully and buy Sutil. But that could happen in only after next race, im short few mils [even with the upcoming bonus queston].

 

[Dead Man]

This isn't a case of a team inventing something that other teams did not think of though, it's something Red Bull has denied using and admits themselves that such a device would be illegal according to the rules. The only team which has admitted to actually wanting to use such a system so far is McLaren themselves, and that's believe to be a bluff to simply get the rules clarified. As such, no team has actually admitted to doing this, which makes it very different from the double diffuser incident of last season. In that case, they were ruled legal.

If it was already illegal, they would not have needed to make a rule clarification.

Edit: All the FIA have to do, is inspect the car. If it is legal, drive on, if not then penalise them. If it is legal but not in the spirit of the rules, change the rules for next season, not this one. F1 should be about innovation, every time a team does that, the FIA makes it illegal.

 

[duckroll]

If it was already illegal, they would not have needed to make a rule clarification.

What is legal or illegal is an interpretation of the rules. A rule clarification is made when a team wants to do something they feel is allowed because the rules are not specifically clear about a certain point, but the FIA views it as a violation of the rule.

Facts:

- McLaren has been accusing Red Bull of using the "active suspension" system.

- Red Bull has denied it, and says they believe themselves that something like that would be against the rules.

- McLaren continues to accuse Red Bull of using the system anyway, and says that since the FIA "isn't doing anything about it" they will use a similar system in China.

- The FIA then comes out and says "such a system would indeed be against the rules".

If it was already illegal, they would not have needed to make a rule clarification.

Edit: All the FIA have to do, is inspect the car. If it is legal, drive on, if not then penalise them. If it is legal but not in the spirit of the rules, change the rules for next season, not this one. F1 should be about innovation, every time a team does that, the FIA makes it illegal.

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. That is exactly what happens in F1. Your claim that every time a team innovates, the FIA makes it illegal, is bullshit. I already pointed out that last season, the double diffusers were ruled to be legal. And the season continued. Stop making shit up.

 

[Dead Man]

What is legal or illegal is an interpretation of the rules. A rule clarification is made when a team wants to do something they feel is allowed because the rules are not specifically clear about a certain point, but the FIA views it as a violation of the rule.

Facts:

- McLaren has been accusing Red Bull of using the "active suspension" system.

- Red Bull has denied it, and says they believe themselves that something like that would be against the rules.

- McLaren continues to accuse Red Bull of using the system anyway, and says that since the FIA "isn't doing anything about it" they will use a similar system in China.

- The FIA then comes out and says "such a system would indeed be against the rules".



I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. That is exactly what happens in F1. Your claim that every time a team innovates, the FIA makes it illegal, is bullshit. I already pointed out that last season, the double diffusers were ruled to be legal. And the season continued. Stop making shit up.

Holy shit, hostile much? Who pissed in your Cherios?

 

[duckroll]

Holy shit, hostile much? Who pissed in your Cherios?

I'm just pointing out the inaccuracies of your claim. If that's being hostile, then so be it.

 

[Dead Man]

I'm just pointing out the inaccuracies of your claim. If that's being hostile, then so be it.

Accusing me of making shit up and swearing is pretty hostile. If you don't want to deal with that then fine, I'll not be hanging in this thread.

Edit: And what the fuck have I made up? Jesus, one example of an idea being allowed (temporarily) does not exactly disprove a general trend of stifling new ideas. Mass dampers, x-wings, wheel covers, there have been many ideas which have not been illegal but were then banned.

 

[duckroll]

Accusing me of making shit up and swearing is pretty hostile. If you don't want to deal with that then fine, I'll not be hanging in this thread.

I swear all the time. If that makes you uncomfortable and you don't want to have a discussion because I use the word fuck, well then too bad.

 

[Dead Man]

I swear all the time. If that makes you uncomfortable and you don't want to have a discussion because I use the word fuck, well then too bad.

Generic swearing I can handle, and I do it all the fucking time too. What I don't do is swear at other forum users when I disagree with them. I also don't accuse people of making shit up.

Fuck.

 

[duckroll]

Generic swearing I can handle, and I do it all the fucking time too. What I don't do is swear at other forum users when I disagree with them. I also don't accuse people of making shit up.

Fuck.

I like how instead of continuing the discussion, and putting forward points to defend your position, you decide instead to turn the entire thing around and make it about me being "rude" towards you. Good job, but you're still making shit up when you say the FIA has always ruled against innovation and made every new thing illegal. If you want to present evidence to prove otherwise, go ahead!

 

[Dead Man]

I like how instead of continuing the discussion, and putting forward points to defend your position, you decide instead to turn the entire thing around and make it about me being "rude" towards you. Good job, but you're still making shit up when you say the FIA has always ruled against innovation and made every new thing illegal. If you want to present evidence to prove otherwise, go ahead!

I did. I guess that is making shit up though.

 

[DrM]

Why is Renault suddenly so competative?

Now that the diffusers have become so much more important, the whole floor of the car has a much increased importance towards the efficiency of the whole car. Renault haven't missed out on that aspect and have added a double floor to its R30.

The team introduced a huge aerodynamic step at Sepang, including new sidepod panels, barge boards, a modified diffuser and a double splitter. Apart from its normal function of splitting air from in between the front wheels to the left and right sidepod, the new device also marks the beginning of a double floor. Right above the reference plane is now an open area of about 3cm high. Looking closely at the image you can also see that this floor space is extending under the side impact crash structures and under the whole width of the sidepod. While it is not perfectly clear yet how this air channel is used, the diffuser update that came with it suggests that this is used to feed on of the upper channels of the rear diffuser.

Just as with the underbody airflow, the stream in this channel will be accelerated due to the expansion that happens in the diffuser. As such, air is sucked from the front of the channel, reducing drag at the front while increasing downforce at the rear end of the car.

F1Technical

So this could be reason for such monster diffuser.

 

[duckroll]

I did. I guess that is making shit up though.

I'm sorry, I didn't see the edit. You're right that there is a trend of wanting teams to "stick within accepted guidelines" for design specs. My issue was mostly your claim that EVERY time a team does that, it is ruled illegal. That part is clearly not true.

In addition, I was trying to point out that in this particular case, there is NO team that has actually admitted using active suspension as an "innovation", and the only one accusing others of doing it is McLaren. So by right, there is no one who is being hurt by this clarification, since no team has admitted to using it at all. If Red Bull is actually using it, then they are in fact a bunch of liars, because they have publicly declared that in THEIR opinion, such a device would be illegal, and that they themselves are in no way using anything like it.

 

[Templar Wizard]

Do we have any pictures of Petrov's hot MILF mommy?
she reminds of me Helena Lindgren (who was my next door neighbour....)

and AHEM yes, ride high adjustments etc...

 

[Dibbz]

I don't see why the FIA would go and ban the suspension thing. Wouldn't they want to encourage teams to go faster like Red Bull?

 

[AndyD]

I don't see why the FIA would go and ban the suspension thing. Wouldn't they want to encourage teams to go faster like Red Bull?

Active suspension can be very expensive, and the whole point is to cut costs. Electronic active suspension was not allowed going into the season, now they clarified that mechanical active suspension is not either.

They said one of the compromises might be allowing a one time ride height adjustment between quali and race. That would be cheap, fair to everyone and require zero new parts.

 

[Ghost]

I don't see why the FIA would go and ban the suspension thing. Wouldn't they want to encourage teams to go faster like Red Bull?

Not really, they want them all to follow the rules.

 

[Lince]

amazing onboard videos of Alonso literally pushing the Ferrari around with a damaged gearbox/clutch... impressive that he set the 2nd fastest lap of the race :lol

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcu6lp_formula1-2010-sepang-alonso-onboard_auto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgME4d1OHko

 

[Steppenwolf]

I don't think his problem had much impact on his speed since it only appears to be a problem when downshifting and the cars don't get driven on the limit during races this year. Must have been an enormous annoyance tho to drive like this.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

'Lucky' F1 needs fixing

Source

Well he's finally echoing the sentiments of the fans.

We really have to be patient for a 'normal' race to confirm this sentiment. The Bahrain race could just be a fluke, or the result of the Hermann Tilke effect.

 

[Jinjo]

Have you ever had the dream of owning your own Formula One trailer? Well now is your chance! :lol

From: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82835

 

[Subitai]

Have you ever had the dream of owning your own Formula One trailer? Well now is your chance! :lol

From: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82835

That's pretty sweet. :lol

 

[DieH@rd]

No f1racegmanager bonus question this week?

 

[AndyD]

No f1racegmanager bonus question this week?

Not yet. Maybe tonight with Thursday expiration like last two of them.

 

[navanman]

Formula 1's ruling body has put an end to its dispute with former Renault members Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds after reaching a settlement with the duo.

Both Briatore and Symonds had been banned from the sport for their involvement in the 2008 race-fixing scandal in the Singapore Grand Prix.

Their ban, however, had been overturned by a French court because of irregularities in the process.

The FIA said it was considering appealing the decision, but that has been ruled out after reaching an agreement with the former Renault men.

The agreement means neither Briatore or Symonds will be allowed to work in Formula 1 until the start of 2013 and in any other competitions registered on the FIA calendars until the end of the 2011 season.

In a statement released on Monday, the FIA said both Briatore and Symonds had expressed regret and apologised for their actions.

"In return, they have asked the FIA to abandon the ongoing appeal procedure, but without the FIA recognising the validity of the criticisms levelled against the WMSC's decision of 21 September 2009, as well as to waive the right to bring any new proceedings against them on the subject of this affair," the FIA said.

"Considering that the judgment of 5 January 2010 concerned only the form and not the substance of the WMSC's decision of 21 September 2009, and that the undertakings and renunciation of all claims expressed by Mr Flavio Briatore and Mr Pat Symonds are in line with what the WMSC is seeking, the FIA President has considered that it is in the best interests of the FIA not to allow the perpetuation of these legal disputes, which have received a great deal of media coverage and which, regardless of the outcome, are very prejudicial to the image of the FIA and of motor sport, and thus to accept this settlement solution, thereby putting an end to this affair."

The ruling body also said it was working on a structural reform to review its statutes to "prevent other misunderstandings," refering to the French court verdict.

Source