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[Vrolokus]

1) there are no precomputed shadows/light maps in HS, everything is compute in realtime, and everything cast and receive shadows

I noticed that, and as a layperson was wondering: what is the perk of realtime shadows on static environmental objects like walls and buildings, etc? I understand them for things like characters, and tables, barrels... things that might move. But for a building, why not just paint the shadows in if the light source (the sun) isn't going to move? It seems like one could save some processing power and make them a little prettier to boot.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

First impressions

Very pretty. Nice combat animation, but only for Nariko; the other characters move in odd ways. Another thing about the enemies, at this stage, is that they seem strangely aloof and lacking in at least superficial hostility.

In cutscenes, both the animation and the voice acting reeks of stage acting, which is to say that it's ridiculously over-dramatic all around.

Game is fun, but I don't think it's for me.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I noticed that, and as a layperson was wondering: what is the perk of realtime shadows on static environmental objects like walls and buildings, etc? I understand them for things like characters, and tables, barrels... things that might move. But for a building, why not just paint the shadows in if the light source (the sun) isn't going to move? It seems like one could save some processing power and make them a little prettier to boot.

They tend not to mix so well with dynamic shadows. Sometimes you care about this, sometimes you do not: Carmack is going for the hybrid approach (pre-computed shadows + dynamic shadows) for Rage and he did note that sometimes the way they mix is not something he likes, but he thinks that in his game it is a necessary sacrifice.

 

[acklame]

Finished the second chapter. I have a feeling that this'll be my favorite game of the year.

 

[Panajev2001a]

What do you mean by bouncy? Anyway, shadows are far from perfect but there a few reasoons for that:
1) there are no precomputed shadows/light maps in HS, everything is compute in realtime, and everything cast and receive shadows
2) when you have in the same frame objects that are very close and very distant objects is really difficult to distribute shadow maps resolution in a way that shadows on close and distant objects are both decent
3) Pay attention to the scene were you fight against hundreds of soldiers: the sun in the scene is just above the horizon, which means almost every soldier gets rendered in the 3 1024x1024 shadow maps, in the z pre pass..and in the color pass. So you might see 500 soldiers on screen, but the game is rendering 2500 of them, each one casting and receving shadows from every other soldier. Umh..maybe that was a bit of an overkill..:lol

*clap clap clap*

 

[Vrolokus]

They tend not to mix so well with dynamic shadows. Sometimes you care about this, sometimes you do not: Carmack is going for the hybrid approach (pre-computed shadows + dynamic shadows) for Rage and he did note that sometimes the way they mix is not something he likes, but he thinks that in his game it is a necessary sacrifice.

Thanks!

"Don't mix well"... you mean aesthetically, like they don't blend well visually?

 

[antoniogaud]

Is the frame rate for the game really that bad? Last I heard it almost never dropped below 30fps save a few odd scenes...

As I am playing the game I am thinking "These environments are STUNNING.", "The lighting is AMAZING!", "The production design is legitimately AAA quality", but also "The framerate is KILLING my enjoyment of everything!"

Seriously, if the framerate had at least been locked in at 30 (it does seems to go down from that) the game is a must-buy for the art alone. Locked in at 60 and it is a Classic which would have made hardcore gamers seriously consider buying a PS3.

EDIT - forgot to add that the loading times after a death are surprisingly long and utterly annoying. Its like you are loading the game up from the beginning or something.

Also what is up with having to 'install' the game when you first play it? That took like 5 minutes!

 

[Greg]

One thing that bothered me about the game (besides framerate) was the AI of your enemies - call me crazy, but I think the AI of the enemies scaled depending on how many are on screen at a given time (and no, I'm not talking about when there are 1k+ :lol)

In a group of 10 to 15, hits land rather easy and you shred through everyone - however, as that same group dwindles down, each person seems to step up their game and the amount of hits you land goes down a bunch. The only reason it bothered me was that you tear through the first bit of a group like "fuck yeah!"...and then the excitement dies down.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Thanks!

"Don't mix well"... you mean aesthetically, like they don't blend well visually?

Yes, that sometimes the darkness of one shadow is darker or brighter than the dynamically generated one or that small artifacts are produced when the two kinds of shadows have to be blended together.

I am a sucker for fully dynamic shadows in games: even though it might make sense not to use a unified solution, I like the sense of consistency that a fully dynamic system gives you... of course as a programmer you better try to show the benefits of having dynamic shadows even for the backgrounds, but it is up to you.

I am one of the people who really enjoyed the "upgrade" Tomb Raider: Legend received on the Xbox 360.

 

[icechai]

One thing that bothered me about the game (besides framerate) was the AI of your enemies - call me crazy, but I think the AI of the enemies scaled depending on how many are on screen at a given time (and no, I'm not talking about when there are 1k+ :lol)

In a group of 10 to 15, hits land rather easy and you shred through everyone - however, as that same group dwindles down, each person seems to step up their game and the amount of hits you land goes down a bunch. The only reason it bothered me was that you tear through the first bit of a group like "fuck yeah!"...and then the excitement dies down.

In hand to hand combat, it is a known fact among fighters and martial artists that fighting 10 people at once is much easier than fighting 2. Think about it, 10 people trying to figure out who should attack when without cutting each other up really poses some problems. Unless they're invulnerable they won't be able to jump you all at once, especially using weapons. However as the numbers dwindle, the options they can do increase. I feel that this game actually understands that, and I'm kind of baffled by people's reactions and denial of this simple truth in the fighting arts.

 

[Bearillusion]

Apart from the length (which I don't really have a problem with) the universal complaint about HS is the framerate and tearing. Have the devs spoken about this in a sense that they will fix this for a sequel?

 

[Nolan.]

I love Bohan! Someone needs to make a compilation video of all his dialog. I laughed when Nariko started screaming and Bohan mimicked her jokingly.

Talking about mimicking I loved Nariko's bitch moment with whiptail where she says something like ''It's so much better when you're angry'' (plus the other thing she says) which whiptail gets really riled up by. Like I said the acting in this game is the best thing about it (imo) particularly Nariko's and Kai's. Though like someone else has said it's a good game but I don't think it's for me either.

Spoiler

By the way did Kai actually hold the sword and if she didn't ow do you have to hold the sword for it to be considered as using it.

 

[White Man]

Wow, I am loving this game. You can check my post history to see that I wasn't happy with the demo, but I just put a bunch of time into the game, and I am more than satisfied.

The reason I didn't like the demo was the contest of it, I guess. The full game eases you into the combat nicely and the demo kinda didn't.

But yeah, really happy with the purchase. I think I am towards the end of chapter 2. The difficulty feels really good, the combat feels really satisfying, and I like the variety.

I am pleasantly surprised with this game. The technical issues really don't drag the game down for me, and I'm moderately picky about chugging and glitchiness and what not. If they were fixed up, and the game had another coat of general polish, this coulda been a classic. Great job at proving me wrong, Ninja Theory! I was sure I wasn't going to like this game, and this is the best kind of surprise.

 

[-viper-]

I noticed that, and as a layperson was wondering: what is the perk of realtime shadows on static environmental objects like walls and buildings, etc? I understand them for things like characters, and tables, barrels... things that might move. But for a building, why not just paint the shadows in if the light source (the sun) isn't going to move? It seems like one could save some processing power and make them a little prettier to boot.

To highlight the awesomeness of the PS3 I guess?

But Killzone 2 will be like that too. Nothing will be 'pre-shadowed'. Every shadow or light you'll see is thanks to its lighting system.

 

[Nolan.]

By the way what ever happened to the countdown.?

 

[deepbrown]

By the way what ever happened to the countdown.?

People at the forums complained about it, saying they wanted to walk through the vistas and not feel rushed.

 

[Doc Evils]

What do you mean by bouncy? Anyway, shadows are far from perfect but there a few reasoons for that:
1) there are no precomputed shadows/light maps in HS, everything is compute in realtime, and everything cast and receive shadows
2) when you have in the same frame objects that are very close and very distant objects is really difficult to distribute shadow maps resolution in a way that shadows on close and distant objects are both decent
3) Pay attention to the scene were you fight against hundreds of soldiers: the sun in the scene is just above the horizon, which means almost every soldier gets rendered in the 3 1024x1024 shadow maps, in the z pre pass..and in the color pass. So you might see 500 soldiers on screen, but the game is rendering 2500 of them, each one casting and receving shadows from every other soldier. Umh..maybe that was a bit of an overkill..:lol

wow.

Pleeease make number 2.

 

[dark10x]

Man, they really went hardcore with the tech side of things. In all honestly, I really wish they hadn't done so. I mean, it does look fantastic, but it would have been more impressive if they had focused on a higher framerate. Pre-baked shadow maps for world geometry would not have been a serious loss as there really isn't a moving light source (and they would have appeared less glitchy).

 

[otake]

Quit using the sixaxis for the aftertouch. Makes a HUGE difference.

my brother did it with the aftertouch, we obtained all 3 medals/

 

[Elios83]

wow.

Pleeease make number 2.

A trilogy is already planned afaik. But probably they're waiting to see how it sells to finalize the budgets. I really hope that it sells well so that they can make a longer game with the same or better quality.

 

[Bulla564]

I love making tributes of games, editing cutscenes. With HS, I fear that I can never come close to what the developers accomplished as far as presentation. Moreover, it would be the first time I could use actual gameplay as amazing scenes.

Does anybody know if there are quality videos of the final battle out there? or is it too soon?

 

[karasu]

The French Nariko rocks my world.

 

[Bulla564]

The French Nariko rocks my world.

Oh shit. I'll probably replay this in French for the added fap potential.

 

[painey]

Just up to chapter 3 now, i really enjoyed the 2nd sniper mission despite hating the first, i think because this was a bit easier. I shot a guy in the eye and i actually shouted "OH!" at how gruesome it was, which is odd because ive done the same in Stranglehold and Max Payne and never had that reation. So awesome.

 

[j-wood]

What do you mean by bouncy? Anyway, shadows are far from perfect but there a few reasoons for that:
1) there are no precomputed shadows/light maps in HS, everything is compute in realtime, and everything cast and receive shadows
2) when you have in the same frame objects that are very close and very distant objects is really difficult to distribute shadow maps resolution in a way that shadows on close and distant objects are both decent
3) Pay attention to the scene were you fight against hundreds of soldiers: the sun in the scene is just above the horizon, which means almost every soldier gets rendered in the 3 1024x1024 shadow maps, in the z pre pass..and in the color pass. So you might see 500 soldiers on screen, but the game is rendering 2500 of them, each one casting and receving shadows from every other soldier. Umh..maybe that was a bit of an overkill..:lol

My bad, I should have clarified it more than bouncy I suppose. I meant that sometimes during cut scenes, A shadow would cross someones face, and would be incredibly jagged and spaz out somewhat...it would spin in an awkward way as the camera moved. I had no idea every shadow was being cast in real time though...that's freakin amazing. Serious processing going on there. I remember when I had my decent gaming PC, turning shadows up KILLED my framerate.

Other than that, aside from the occasional frame rate hiccup, this game is amazing. Some of the best graphics/lip-syncing I've ever seen.

 

[Synless]

What do you mean by bouncy? Anyway, shadows are far from perfect but there a few reasoons for that:
1) there are no precomputed shadows/light maps in HS, everything is compute in realtime, and everything cast and receive shadows
2) when you have in the same frame objects that are very close and very distant objects is really difficult to distribute shadow maps resolution in a way that shadows on close and distant objects are both decent
3) Pay attention to the scene were you fight against hundreds of soldiers: the sun in the scene is just above the horizon, which means almost every soldier gets rendered in the 3 1024x1024 shadow maps, in the z pre pass..and in the color pass. So you might see 500 soldiers on screen, but the game is rendering 2500 of them, each one casting and receving shadows from every other soldier. Umh..maybe that was a bit of an overkill..:lol

The game was great man, good job guys I can't wait for the sequel!!!!!!!! Make it happen!!!!!!

 

[BeeDog]

Daaaamn, can't wait till my copy of this game arrives (Europe). After reading this topic, the waiting is a major pain.

 

[Bojanglez]

Only up to Chapter 2 at the moment but I love the game. Plays well and looks beautiful. I love the aftertouch bits.

My only problem is that the enemy AI sometimes seems a bit retarded (i.e. they just stand and wait to be attacked), but that is no different to some kung-fu movies where the hero is battling loads of bad guys at once, it would be kinda stupid if they all just jumped on him/her and pinned them down.

Knowing it is not the longest of games, I think I am savouring every bit and absorbing the scenary more than a longer game that I might run through in order to finish in a reasonable amount of time. I think it makes the experience that bit more enjoyable.

 

[EekTheKat]

Just finished it, and it's been a very memorable game. I'm definately looking forward to whatever NT do to expand upon what they built with HS.

Couple thoughts :

I actually thought

Spoiler

paralyzing your fellow clansmen

was really well done, the brief

Spoiler

take down

animations without

Spoiler

killing them

looked really cool, and it definately reminded me some old martial arts flicks.

Andy Serkis had entirely too much fun playing Bohan :lol It shows in the performance and it makes Bohan probably one of the most fun to watch villains in a long, long time.

I liked how in one sequence you can see Nariko

Spoiler

transition from cornered, lost and desperate to killing machine

all merely from looking at her face.

I found that little piece of

Spoiler

logic Nariko uses when she argues with the sword (just before she starts glowing with power

to be hilariously awesome

Spoiler

(it was something like "my people will be wiped out...you'll be nothing more than a rusty sword in someone trophy case as a display")

:lol mostly because 1. what she said to

Spoiler

the sword

was

Spoiler

true

and 2. it's such a huge deviation from the

Spoiler

usual I NEED YOUR POWER to save my family and friends

that it just struck me as funny.

 

[deepbrown]

Man, they really went hardcore with the tech side of things. In all honestly, I really wish they hadn't done so. I mean, it does look fantastic, but it would have been more impressive if they had focused on a higher framerate. Pre-baked shadow maps for world geometry would not have been a serious loss as there really isn't a moving light source (and they would have appeared less glitchy).

Still...the best lighting in a game, right?

 

[deepbrown]

One thing that bothered me about the game (besides framerate) was the AI of your enemies - call me crazy, but I think the AI of the enemies scaled depending on how many are on screen at a given time (and no, I'm not talking about when there are 1k+ :lol)

In a group of 10 to 15, hits land rather easy and you shred through everyone - however, as that same group dwindles down, each person seems to step up their game and the amount of hits you land goes down a bunch. The only reason it bothered me was that you tear through the first bit of a group like "fuck yeah!"...and then the excitement dies down.

Well you clearly see that that's deliberate. There is AI for groups, AI for armies, and then as the numbers go down, there is individual AI. This means it's challenging no matter how many enemies you have, but not so challenging that it pisses you off. Balancing.

 

[Fafalada]

what is the perk of realtime shadows on static environmental objects like walls and buildings, etc?

Unified lighting can simplify things a lot during the design (both programming and art), gives everything a consistent look (the common issues range from multiple-shadowing when realtime+static shadows overlap, to static shadows looking dramatically higher/lower quality from realtime ones, all of which hurts the overall image of the game), and allows for more freedom with visual designs (eg. maybe sun doesn't move during a single playthrough of a level - but it can still be in different locations everytime you reach the said location on multiple playthroughs/restarts).

Obviously there's negative points too (like what you mentioned) - realtime graphics is all about tradeoffs - there pretty much aren't any decisions you can make that are a "win-win" scenario.

 

[Vrolokus]

In hand to hand combat, it is a known fact among fighters and martial artists that fighting 10 people at once is much easier than fighting 2. Think about it, 10 people trying to figure out who should attack when without cutting each other up really poses some problems. Unless they're invulnerable they won't be able to jump you all at once, especially using weapons. However as the numbers dwindle, the options they can do increase. I feel that this game actually understands that, and I'm kind of baffled by people's reactions and denial of this simple truth in the fighting arts.

Oh brother.

Can I have that as my tag please, mods? "Denies the simple truth of the fighting arts"?

 

[BlindMonkey]

Daaaamn, can't wait till my copy of this game arrives (Europe). After reading this topic, the waiting is a major pain.

Where in Europe? I've had my copy since Thursday, UK.

I'm stuck on Whip Tail, just can't work out what i should do.
I'm just trading punches with her and losing.

 

[dark10x]

Just finished it myself. The final battle was really fun, but damn it, the framerate knocked everything down a notch once again. It seems to me that they constantly sacrificed performance in order to perform more complex operations. Sometimes "cheating" is the way to go.

 

[IzumiK]

Where in Europe? I've had my copy since Thursday, UK.

I'm stuck on Whip Tail, just can't work out what i should do.
I'm just trading punches with her and losing.

Spoiler

If you really want to be cheap, ranged attacks make her do her projectiles. Happened to me very often. I just negate the waves (small wave is triangle ranged, big waves and square ranged attack.) and she gets disoriented for a bit so I could pull a big 3-4 hitter combo on her. Also, keep trying to use shield breaking combos.

 

[M°°nblade]

I don't know if someone already posted this but on ps3forums.com someone noticed kratos blades and armor are hanging on the wall in HS (some kai mission).

http://www.ps3focus.nl/v3/bekijk.php?id=6718

 

[gofreak]

Just finished chapter 3..what a beautiful environment. And quite a fun one too, the mix of play styles was welcome. I didn't think Kai would have so much, so that was a nice surprise.

"Cinematic blockbuster experience" does about sum it up well, IMO. It is like experiencing a movie to a certain degree. The choices they've made do have their tradeoffs though...like, for example, keeping tight control over the camera, toward those cinematic ends. The camera is fine as far as gameplay goes, but I'd love for a firstperson free-look or something, just to better take in the environments around you.

edit - also, is it just me or is there an unlockable the first time you hit an enemy in the groin with the crossbow? :lol Maybe it was coincidence. That chapter is good for checking out enemy reactions and banter, though. Quite enjoyable.

 

[otake]

how the hell do you get all three medals against whiptail?

 

[djkimothy]

how the hell do you get all three medals against whiptail?

Break all the pots, and combo the shit out of her. Build that style bar! Also, I think breaking the wide waves also adds to the bar.

Funny, I easily got 3 stars out of her and the

Spoiler

roach pets

but I can for the life of me get 3 stars for the Night attack sniper level. Level 2!

I manage to get all but 7 but that's still not enough.

This game is awesome. Unlike some, I'm taking my time with the game playing levels twice before I move on. Trying to get 3 stars plus taking in all the vistas. The Twing TWang levels with Kai are just awesome. I totally forget this was Heavenly sword. Challenge levels with Kai are desperately needed!

 

[ThirstyFly]

I picked this up last night and played through the first chapter this morning. So far I'm very pleased with my purchase. I'm not going to cry over the length, games like this don't come around often and it would be shame to miss it because of something like that. I can see myself replaying it as well, and it's rare when I do replay games. It's probably gonna take me a while to get all the medals too, I missed a bunch in the first chapter.

And Bohan is friggin' awesome.

Spoiler

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Spoiler

BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

 

[drohne]

how the hell do you get all three medals against whiptail?

you're probably missing the same thing i missed -- you can deflect her small waves with the triangle button from ranged stance. the 'combos' you get from deflecting both wave types really build your score.

as for 'night attack' -- and most kai stages -- just shoot each enemy twice, and keep your combo going even if it means letting a few guys escape.

my next task is to get three medals on a bunch of kai sections in the third stage...i don't particularly like the kai sections, so i'm not looking forward to this, but once you start down the path of completism...

 

[ThirstyFly]

So getting the medals depends on your score, not meeting requirements in the game?

 

[djkimothy]

So getting the medals depends on your score, not meeting requirements in the game?

Yah, look at the bottom, you see 3 "circles", build the bar till you get the third one fully.

 

[ThirstyFly]

Yah, look at the bottom, you see 3 "circles", build the bar till you get the third one fully.

Oh, that little bar that builds up from 6 when you perform combos and such without taking a hit? Guess I should flip though the manual

 

[tanod]

My copy finally shipped yesterday. WOOOT!!!

Nostromo, that's fricking amazing just hearing about what's going on with the lighting. wow

 

[Yoshichan]

My game is in stockholm... it should arrive tomorrow

 

[vpance]

The realtime lighting is cool, but the flickering shadows kinda kills it for me. But I understand its more or less a limitation of the hardware this gen. And I guess it's extra hard to control when you've got several viewpoints to deal with at any moment in time.. 3rd person, over the shoulder, cutscenes.

 

[Y2Kev]

Nostromo, you are nuts!

Can't wait to see your next project. Sony should fund again!

 

[Nostromo]

I noticed that, and as a layperson was wondering: what is the perk of realtime shadows on static environmental objects like walls and buildings, etc? I understand them for things like characters, and tables, barrels... things that might move. But for a building, why not just paint the shadows in if the light source (the sun) isn't going to move? It seems like one could save some processing power and make them a little prettier to boot.

Good question!
Anyway..as my friends Pana and Faf have already explained is not easy to seamlessly mix pre-baked shadows and dynamic shadows.
It's also not easy to store pre computed soft shadows volumes (cause you need to store and reconstruct volumes if you want shadows casted by static objects to be received by dinamic geometry that can go anywhere in HS..) and being able to reconstruct the volumes at run time in a robust way (e.g. stencil shadows could do it..but they suck a lot of fill rate and it's also impossible to cap their rendering time cause it's very camera view dependent) it's hard or eats tons of memory (this is way I discarded pre-computed deep shadow maps).
You can see totally dynamic shadow maps as a trade off between rendering quality and memory in this case, as they're very effective at compressing a shadow volume (as you need to re-render it every frame, thus you're effectively decompressing some data everytime you render a static object in a shadow map )
I'm not saying we implemented everything in the right way or we took all the right decisions; also keep in mind that features set/engine requirements can change over time.
What you can have at the end of the project is only a part of what you have designed your engine for as the game evolves and changes during development.
I have no doubt it's possible to do much better than that, but I know this now, I didn't 18 months ago..
I guess smarter ppl get more stuff right since the beginning..