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[brain_stew]

what about if I am looking right now at the amd x3 435 as the cpu for my build?

Then you probably can't afford them, once you factor in the pricier motherboard.

 

[Minsc]

Found this looking at 5870 temperatures online:

At idle the Radeon HD 5870 had amazingly low temperatures that shocked even us. When we first looked at the Radeon HD 4870 in June 2008 we found that it had an idle temperature of 74C. The new Radeon HD 5870 idles at just 38C, which is impressive considering how fast this card is and that this is a reference heat sink. As you can see from the screen shot above, the idle state of the Radeon HD 5870 drops the GPU frequency down to just 157 MHz and the memory down to 300 MHz to help conserve power and lower temperatures. AMD has nailed idle temperatures on this series from the looks of it.

That is impressive, it has an idle temperature of 1/2! the previous generation card, no wonder my build stays cool. I ran the performance test in DoW 2 and it only hit 55C, but the chart on that site shows it may go to around 85C if you run it long enough, I'll have to check after a hour of Dragon Age and see where it is.

 

[Red]

Found this looking at 5870 temperatures online:



That is impressive, it has an idle temperature of 1/2! the previous generation card, no wonder my build stays cool. I ran the performance test in DoW 2 and it only hit 55C, but the chart on that site shows it may go to around 85C if you run it long enough, I'll have to check after a hour of Dragon Age and see where it is.

Yeah, it's amazingly cool. I was expecting it to blow me away, but even with my high expectations I was thoroughly impressed.

 

[TouchMyBox]

I'm breaking out of lurking to get some opinions on a new build I'm working on for myself. I'm really a PC gamer exclusively so still being on this Pentium 4, 2GB of RAM, 8800GT build is blasphemy. Anyway, I'm not sure about a couple of the components. Namely the motherboard and case. Tell me what you guys think so far.

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=16898347
(Wishlist will change over time as I tweak it)

I know I have two cases in there. I'm trying to decide which one would be best. I really like the look of the RC-690, but the HAF 922 has great features. It would also be swell if you could help me out on if I chose a good CPU cooler. Lastly, I keep wondering if a 1980 x 1200 monitor is worth it over the 1920 x 1080 I have in the cart. I'm trying to keep it under $1,700 which shouldn't be too hard. I have a mouse, keyboard, and speakers already. Help me get off of my crusty old computer.

Looks excellent to me. That's a nice monitor, but wouldn't you rather get something that's LED back-lit if you're spending > $200? As for the case, I'd get a Lian-Li if I were spending $100 on a case, but that's just my personal preference.

 

[Minsc]

Yeah, it's amazingly cool. I was expecting it to blow me away, but even with my high expectations I was thoroughly impressed.

Yea, mine even idles 5C cooler than that quote, at 33C. I'm really looking forward to the rumored performance gains in the 9.12 drivers due out this month:

 

[TouchMyBox]

Yea, mine even idles 5C cooler than that quote, at 33C. I'm really looking forward to the rumored performance gains in the 9.12 drivers due out this month:

Do you have a windtunnel going through your machine? Mine idles at 42.

 

[Red]

Do you have a windtunnel going through your machine? Mine idles at 42.

Mine idled at about 31-32, but it was a Vapor-X model. Highest I saw it get was around 50C. Though, admittedly, I didn't get to push it very hard.

 

[Minsc]

Do you have a windtunnel going through your machine? Mine idles at 42.

Just slow running fans humming quiet as can be... your 5870 seemed to bench a bit better than mine in STALKER though iirc. Mine falls right on the mark (to the exact numbers pretty much) for Dirt 2's min/ave/max compared to review benches, so I'm not too concerned, just a little jealous.

Those new drivers are due out next week, and January brings us 3D support in the drivers (at least for movies/videos), should be an interesting couple of months, especially if the cards start producing a bit faster so they stay in stock. Well, that's enough ATI sidetracking for a little while from me.

 

[TouchMyBox]

Just slow running fans humming quiet as can be... your 5870 seemed to bench a bit better than mine in STALKER though iirc. Mine falls right on the mark (to the exact numbers pretty much) for Dirt 2's min/ave/max compared to review benches, so I'm not too concerned, just a little jealous.

Those new drivers are due out next week, and January brings us 3D support in the drivers (at least for movies/videos), should be an interesting couple of months, especially if the cards start producing a bit faster so they stay in stock. Well, that's enough ATI sidetracking for a little while from me.

Odd that mine does better in stalker, but can't run dirt 2 for shit :lol

I've got a Zalman VF1000 sitting next to me, I was thinking of putting it on my 5770 when that actually arrives, but upon reading reviews and hearing that it only ever reaches 42 dB with stock cooling, I'm wondering if I should try put it on my 5870. (I'm not even sure if it fits, but it's not like the die is huge or anything)

 

[Spl1nter]

Then you probably can't afford them, once you factor in the pricier motherboard.

The P55 motherboards arent that bad. So if I go with a x3 435 and a 5750 or 5770 will the cpu bottleneck the graphics card?

 

[Dash]

I'm breaking out of lurking to get some opinions on a new build I'm working on for myself. I'm really a PC gamer exclusively so still being on this Pentium 4, 2GB of RAM, 8800GT build is blasphemy. Anyway, I'm not sure about a couple of the components. Namely the motherboard and case. Tell me what you guys think so far.

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=16898347
(Wishlist will change over time as I tweak it)

I know I have two cases in there. I'm trying to decide which one would be best. I really like the look of the RC-690, but the HAF 922 has great features. It would also be swell if you could help me out on if I chose a good CPU cooler. Lastly, I keep wondering if a 1980 x 1200 monitor is worth it over the 1920 x 1080 I have in the cart. I'm trying to keep it under $1,700 which shouldn't be too hard. I have a mouse, keyboard, and speakers already. Help me get off of my crusty old computer.

I have that exact same case ready for my build. I mainly bought it since it got amazing reviews and was on sale for %40 off last week on newegg.

As for the mobo, I will one again recommend this one http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...055&cm_re=EVGA_p55_SLI-_-13-188-055-_-Product, especially since it's on sale. EVGA is your safest choice for not having the problematic foxconn socket. Google it if you want to know more.

 

[TouchMyBox]

The P55 motherboards arent that bad. So if I go with a x3 435 and a 5750 or 5770 will the cpu bottleneck the graphics card?

Let's just say that my x3 435 with 4th core unlocked running at 3.4GHz is in no way bottlenecking my 5870.

 

[Lkr]

what voltage are you at for 3.4GHz? I need a voltage idea, because I think I'm pretty stable with the 4th core enabled. OCCT has been running for 3 hours with no problem

edit: is TMPIN0 my CPU temp, because the cores appear at 0C

 

[Spl1nter]

So I am going to be putting together my first computer over the holidays. I plan to buy the parts in a few days. This is what I have so far.

AMD Anthlon X3 435 Rana 2.9
GIGABYTE GA-MA770T-UD3P AM3
G-Skill 4 Gig DDR3 Ram
WD Caviar Black 640GB
Sapphire Radeon HD 5770

I have a dvd drive so now all I have left are Case and PSU and a monitor. Can anyone make any recommendations on those. There are a number of monitors on newegg for 159 - 189 in the 21.5-22 inch range. Not sure which one I should get. For the psu I want to overclock the cpu and video card so how many watts do I need? For the case I just want something simple and cheap.

All those prices are in CAD. Obviously trying to keep the price down as it adds up to 530 CAD right now.

 

[SundaySounds]

Sapphire Radeon HD 5770

Do you planning on crossfiring in the future? because if not the 4890 is really a better option. the 5770 has DX11, but a single 5770 doesn't handle it that great. But the 5770 has incredible crossfire scalability.

Also, make sure you don't get the egg shaped cooler. It will just blow the heat around in your case. Find a model with the full cooling fan, because it will blow the hot air outside your case.

HD 4890 $185 after MIR

HD 5770 $170 with free shipping

Also, the 5770 runs cooler and uses less power. I've been told the 5770 overclocks really well, too. but I have no experience with it.

 

[dionysus]

What is the difference between choosing to run a game in 60 hz or 59 hz when picking the monitor resolution?

 

[Red]

What is the difference between choosing to run a game in 60 hz or 59 hz when picking the monitor resolution?

1 Hz :lol

I'm pretty sure it's a compatibility thing. You probably won't notice a difference either way.

 

[Lkr]

im at 64C on OCCT with 4 cores enabled and 3.2GHz. Should I stop pushing and turn down the clock a bit or what?

 

[Spl1nter]

Let's just say that my x3 435 with 4th core unlocked running at 3.4GHz is in no way bottlenecking my 5870.

What motherboard you using to get the 4th core. I read you cant do it with all mb's.

 

[wolfmat]

What is the difference between choosing to run a game in 60 hz or 59 hz when picking the monitor resolution?

The monitor refresh rate is independent of a game's framerate (although it's preferrable that it matches or is a fraction of it). So it shouldn't be a big deal.

Especially when it's a TFT screen because 1 Hertz difference is 1 ms difference over a second, and the monitor usually takes longer than 1 ms to change a pixel every frame, so the pixels will never be refreshed fast enough to display the difference.

 

[Dash]

How long do you think it will take the ATI 58xx series to drop down in price? I bought a Nvidia 8800GT two years ago, so it's hard for me to justify upgrading so soon unless they stop overcharging so much for them.

On a similar note, with just my 8800 GT and an i5 750, will I be able to play most games at 1680x1050 at max settings at 30FPS?

 

[senahorse]

Yea believe me I went back and forth trying to decide if I should go i5 or i7 860 etc. After looking at oodles of benchmarks I finally decided since I do a lot of encoding I'd benefit from triple channel, plus I have a good chance in getting a D0 step i7 920 which supposedly OC to 4ghz rather easily.

That's understandable, it all comes down to what you need to get out of it. For me it was gaming first and foremost, everything else being an aside. To that end I have ordered an MSI GD80 mb, i5 750 and am still deciding on the ram, probably will end up with something in the Corsair XMS line.

Oh and good luck with OC

 

[Ionic]

I've updated my list to reflect some of your recommendations.
http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=16898347
I also decided on the RC-690 for the case. I realized that I'm a good 250 or so below my budget. Would it be a good move to upgrade some parts to an i7-860 or a 5870? My biggest questions are now with the monitor. Is the difference between a 2ms and 5ms response time big enough to factor it into a purchase? Is going 1920 x 1200 a good move? What of screens that are LED back-lit? I think that's all the questions I can possibly have. Thanks for the help so far.

 

[SundaySounds]

How long do you think it will take the ATI 58xx series to drop down in price? I bought a Nvidia 8800GT two years ago, so it's hard for me to justify upgrading so soon unless they stop overcharging so much for them.

On a similar note, with just my 8800 GT and an i5 750, will I be able to play most games at 1680x1050 at max settings at 30FPS?

That 8800 will probably be a big bottleneck, I sincerely doubt you'll be able to play L4D2 or DA: O at max with a decent fps. I mean, the 8800 will run the games, but you're gonna have to keep your settings turned down.

I've updated my list to reflect some of your recommendations.
http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=16898347
I also decided on the RC-690 for the case. I realized that I'm a good 250 or so below my budget. Would it be a good move to upgrade some parts to an i7-860 or a 5870? My biggest questions are now with the monitor. Is the difference between a 2ms and 5ms response time big enough to factor it into a purchase? Is going 1920 x 1200 a good move? What of screens that are LED back-lit? I think that's all the questions I can possibly have. Thanks for the help so far.

zip zoom fly has your hdd for cheaper.

Also, (if you're not a college student) can't you find someone with a college e-mail you could use to get W7 for $30?

And it seems that the cooler you've got picked out comes with arctic MX-2(thermal Compound) pre-installed on the heatsink. So you probably don't need to buy any more thermal grease.

 

[TouchMyBox]

im at 64C on OCCT with 4 cores enabled and 3.2GHz. Should I stop pushing and turn down the clock a bit or what?

64 isn't dangerous or anything, and that's the worst it's ever gonna be, regular gaming should yield lower temps. Are you using the stock cooling? You might want to pick up a better heatsink if you wanna squeeze out as much performance out of it as you can. I got this last week for $29 free shipping and it does it's job. As for voltages, my MSI board actually automatically overvolts my cpu a little bit, I think it takes it to 1.41V when it's not idle, I'll double check what it is when I boot it up again.

As for your temps not showing, my core clocks don't show anymore for me either after this BIOS update, the reading for the overall CPU temperature does show in everest, however.

What motherboard you using to get the 4th core. I read you cant do it with all mb's.

I have the MSI 770-C45 w/ 1.55b BIOS, it's kinda lacking in hardware features as a motherboard, but the bios for it is great, however. It kinda worked out for me as it was the cheapest motherboard I could possibly buy ($60)

 

[K.Jack]

How long do you think it will take the ATI 58xx series to drop down in price? I bought a Nvidia 8800GT two years ago, so it's hard for me to justify upgrading so soon unless they stop overcharging so much for them.

On a similar note, with just my 8800 GT and an i5 750, will I be able to play most games at 1680x1050 at max settings at 30FPS?

That 8800 will probably be a big bottleneck, I sincerely doubt you'll be able to play L4D2 or DA: O at max with a decent fps. I mean, the 8800 will run the games, but you're gonna have to keep your settings turned down.

I'm playing DA: O on a 9800 GT and 2.93Ghz C2D. 1680x1050, max settings. 30+ fps at all times.

L4D2 will run maxed out, no-brainer easy.

 

[Lkr]

64 isn't dangerous or anything, and that's the worst it's ever gonna be, regular gaming should yield lower temps. Are you using the stock cooling? You might want to pick up a better heatsink if you wanna squeeze out as much performance out of it as you can. I got this last week for $29 free shipping and it does it's job. As for voltages, my MSI board actually automatically overvolts my cpu a little bit, I think it takes it to 1.41V when it's not idle, I'll double check what it is when I boot it up again.

As for your temps not showing, my core clocks don't show anymore for me either after this BIOS update, the reading for the overall CPU temperature does show in everest, however.



I have the MSI 770-C45 w/ 1.55b BIOS, it's kinda lacking in hardware features as a motherboard, but the bios for it is great, however. It kinda worked out for me as it was the cheapest motherboard I could possibly buy ($60)

I was playing NBA 2k10 and it only went to 53C. I think it was because OCCT pushes it to 100%. Yes I'm using stock cooling

 

[jsrv]

Could someone help me build a ~500-550$ machine including an OEM copy of Win7, case, tax and shipping? (Might find someone with an edu email to get discount for W7 though) Helping someone build a computer to replace a broken one since he is clueless about computers in general. Trying to get it with at least an ATI 4770

Is it even possible?

 

[SundaySounds]

Could someone help me build a ~500-550$ machine including an OEM copy of Win7, case, tax and shipping? (Might find someone with an edu email to get discount for W7 though) Helping someone build a computer to replace a broken one since he is clueless about computers in general. Trying to get it with at least an ATI 4770

Is it even possible?

What's your e-mail? I'll send you something.

Spoiler

I don't know how to export newegg shopping carts, how do I do that GAF?

w/e. I'll just post it here.

Rosewill Wind Knight Gaming ATX Mid Tower
Crucial 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333
XFX HD-489X-ZSFC Radeon HD 4890 1GB+OCZ ModXStream Pro OCZ500MXSP 500W combo
AMD Phenom II X3 720 2.8GHz + GIGABYTE GA-MA790GPT-UD3H AM3 combo

So your total comes to $585.41(shipping included), but then you've also got $55 worth of Mail in Rebates.

You could probably find yourself a better case. I didn't look very hard.

 

[Sipowicz]

OK lads I'm back. I thought i might as well bite the bullet and get all my PC stuff before the VAT rate goes back up in january. apologies in advance to brain_stew for being annoying

Earlier on the following components were reccomended for the case and motherboard
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/135101
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/165438


I found these cheaper equivalents
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/150932
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/177224

so which ones should i get. i know you said not to get a cheap case but the new one's 18 spond. that's dirt cheap. is it still nto worth getting?

 

[Alucrid]

PC-gaf...I just bought a new monitor, but what should I do with the old one? It's a 17'' flat screen with a dead pixel or two. Would people actually want to buy that?

 

[markot]

Could just use it as a second monitor.

 

[Firestorm]

So how much better is the i5-750 over the Phenom II X4 940? Also how useful do you think USB 3.0 will be taking into account the current implementation and the fact that the person this is for will not be upgrading. Trying to make a build for my cousin. $100 difference when you put in motherboard + processor.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I was playing NBA 2k10 and it only went to 53C. I think it was because OCCT pushes it to 100%. Yes I'm using stock cooling

Just buy a good cpu fan to replace the stock. For how cheap a fan is, there's no reason to try and overclock on stock.

 

[Minsc]

I'm playing DA: O on a 9800 GT and 2.93Ghz C2D. 1680x1050, max settings. 30+ fps at all times.

L4D2 will run maxed out, no-brainer easy.

Yea, those were some poor choices. There's plenty of games that won't run on an 8800 GT maxed out, like Dawn of War 2, GTA, Crysis (lol), STALKER (any of them), Starcraft 2, Risen, and so on. The list is significantly bigger if you decide you want FSAA added to your games (then you can count most console to PC releases too).

 

[Dash]

Yea, those were some poor choices. There's plenty of games that won't run on an 8800 GT maxed out, like Dawn of War 2, GTA, Crysis (lol), STALKER (any of them), Starcraft 2, Risen, and so on. The list is significantly bigger if you decide you want FSAA added to your games (then you can count most console to PC releases too).

Well that's unfortunate to hear. I mean I still plan to upgrade to the 58xx series, I'm just hoping that by June the prices will have gone down significantly. Am I being overly optimistic?

 

[Songbird]

So how much better is the i5-750 over the Phenom II X4 940? Also how useful do you think USB 3.0 will be taking into account the current implementation and the fact that the person this is for will not be upgrading.

I would be interested to know any answers to these questions too. i5 is reaching "affordable" status for me and if it's a lot better I'll jump. Been saving my monies!

 

[BravoSuperStar]

So how much better is the i5-750 over the Phenom II X4 940? Also how useful do you think USB 3.0 will be taking into account the current implementation and the fact that the person this is for will not be upgrading. Trying to make a build for my cousin. $100 difference when you put in motherboard + processor.

I would be interested to know any answers to these questions too. i5 is reaching "affordable" status for me and if it's a lot better I'll jump. Been saving my monies!

This link may or may not work, but you can go to tomshardware.com and under charts choose CPU. This is a Phenom II X4 945 VS Core i5 750. I'd say it's worth it to go with Intel I5, but motherboard price may be the deciding factor.

CPU Chart

 

[jsrv]

What's your e-mail? I'll send you something.

Spoiler

I don't know how to export newegg shopping carts, how do I do that GAF?

w/e. I'll just post it here.

Rosewill Wind Knight Gaming ATX Mid Tower
Crucial 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333
XFX HD-489X-ZSFC Radeon HD 4890 1GB+OCZ ModXStream Pro OCZ500MXSP 500W combo
AMD Phenom II X3 720 2.8GHz + GIGABYTE GA-MA790GPT-UD3H AM3 combo

So your total comes to $585.41(shipping included), but then you've also got $55 worth of Mail in Rebates.

You could probably find yourself a better case. I didn't look very hard.

Would go much higher than 500 with the HDD and the OS
But I think I can try to work around it, thanks.

As for the 4770, I thought they were for 70$, but it seems they are 100 in newegg. Might go for 4650 or 4670 instead if the difference is minute

 

[SundaySounds]

Would go much higher than 500 with the HDD and the OS
But I think I can try to work around it, thanks.

As for the 4770, I thought they were for 70$, but it seems they are 100 in newegg. Might go for 4650 or 4670 instead if the difference is minute

Oh yeah, forgot about the HDD. lol.

 

[K.Jack]

Yea, those were some poor choices. There's plenty of games that won't run on an 8800 GT maxed out, like Dawn of War 2, GTA, Crysis (lol), STALKER (any of them), Starcraft 2, Risen, and so on. The list is significantly bigger if you decide you want FSAA added to your games (then you can count most console to PC releases too).

I think we need to be careful to not make games sound near unplayable. If you're only shooting for 30fps, all of those games can be played on High settings, with Crysis and Risen being the two toughest contenders.

 

[Lkr]

Just buy a good cpu fan to replace the stock. For how cheap a fan is, there's no reason to try and overclock on stock.

I have $0 in my bank account right now, so it'll have to wait a bit

 

[Kabuki Waq]

what kind of gaming mouse do you guys use? I have no idea what to get.

 

[Firestorm]

what kind of gaming mouse do you guys use? I have no idea what to get.

I use the Logitech MX 518. There's a Special Edition of it for $20 on eBay which I assume is the same as the regular:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Logitech-ga...41QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMice?hash=item20ae79eae1

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Man you are fast Firestorm. Thanks a lot.

 

[Firestorm]

I forgot you're in Canada >.>;

$43 seems to be cheapest: http://cgi.ebay.ca/Logitech-MX518-M...QQptZAU_Input_Peripherals?hash=item1c0e37e939

 

[Kabuki Waq]

oh btw these are the final specs for my new pc to build how does it look? I got a 5870 before everything else.

Component Make Model Price
CPU Intel Core i7 920 (Retail) $309.00
CPU Cooler (optional) Zalman CNPS9900 LED $60.00
Motherboard Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD7 $366.00
Memory OCZ OCZ3G1600LV6GK (6GB) $155.00
Power Supply Antec TruePower Quattro 1000W $167.00
Case Antec P183 $133.00


$1,190.00
$71.40

$1,261.40

 

[Firestorm]

For Power Supply, grab this: http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=10370AC2557&vpn=CP-850&manufacture=ANTEC

Cheaper and is specially built for your case. SilentPC Review seems to love it as well.

I actually don't trust OCZ for their DDR3 RAM due to the amount of DOA reports on Newegg... I'd try this: http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=023345&cid=RAM.346.539

For the heatsink, I'm a fan of Noctua. Not sure on the Zalmann but if it's got great reviews that's a pick too. http://pccyber.com/?v=product&i=CF-NOC-NH-U12P-SE2

Price Match all that NCIX along with the rest of your stuff for the $8 shipping they have this week. Unless of course you have somewhere local to buy for.

If you already bough tit, it's all good, I just think the PSU is overkill, the RAM is a gamble, and don't know on the heatsink.

 

[SapientWolf]

Yea, those were some poor choices. There's plenty of games that won't run on an 8800 GT maxed out, like Dawn of War 2, GTA, Crysis (lol), STALKER (any of them), Starcraft 2, Risen, and so on. The list is significantly bigger if you decide you want FSAA added to your games (then you can count most console to PC releases too).

If he's a "60fps or nothing" type of gamer he could always get a CRT and drop the res down to 1024x768. That's an extreme example though.

If you want to be brutally honest the real bottleneck is all the game engines still using 4+ year old tech. Games released this year running at 2560x1600 max'd out with 16xAF and 8xMSAA is insanity. As a gamer you don't really need all that power but as a gamer you sure do want it.

 

[Dash]

oh btw these are the final specs for my new pc to build how does it look? I got a 5870 before everything else.

Component Make Model Price
CPU Intel Core i7 920 (Retail) $309.00
CPU Cooler (optional) Zalman CNPS9900 LED $60.00
Motherboard Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD7 $366.00
Memory OCZ OCZ3G1600LV6GK (6GB) $155.00
Power Supply Antec TruePower Quattro 1000W $167.00
Case Antec P183 $133.00


$1,190.00
$71.40

$1,261.40

Seems like a slightly over-priced build to me. Is there a particular reason you need the i7 920 over the i5 750 or Phenom II 955?

If he's a "60fps or nothing" type of gamer he could always get a CRT and drop the res down to 1024x768. That's an extreme example though.

If you want to be brutally honest the real bottleneck is all the game engines still using 4+ year old tech. Games released this year running at 2560x1600 max'd out with 16xAF and 8xMSAA is insanity. As a gamer you don't really need all that power but as a gamer you sure do want it.

Actually quite the opposite, I prefer having 30 FPS but with higher resolution and settings maxed over 60 FPS with lower settings. Either way, I don't think I'll be getting either until I take the plunge to upgrade my 8800GT.