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[Visualante]

Hey guys and girls. I'm in the market for a mid range netbook or small laptop for work. This won't be used for gaming but I may need to run Photoshop or Maya occasionally to show people WIP stuff.

It needs a good keyboard and solid build quality, around a 13 inch screen. I'm operating system agnostic, MacBook or Windows book would be ideal I feel. Ubuntu is nice but there's no Photoshop. Main reason I'm not keen on the MacBook is the keyboard and lack of tactile feedback for the trackpad. The Samsung NC20 was pointed out to me as a good piece of kit.

Price range is not a huge issue, if you could cap it at top 20% of high end laptops that'd be great. I feel above this region you're not getting a good bang for buck ratio.
If you'd point me in the direction of a handful that'd be great. I'm not a technophobe, I've just not owned a laptop in several years.

 

[brain_stew]

Hey guys. I'm in the market for a mid range netbook or small laptop for work. This won't be used for gaming but I may need to run Photoshop or Maya occasionally to show people WIP stuff.

It needs a good keyboard and solid build quality, around a 13 inch screen. I'm operating system agnostic, MacBook or Windows book would be ideal I feel. Ubuntu is nice but there's no Photoshop. Main reason I'm not keen on the MacBook is the keyboard and lack of tactile feedback for the trackpad.

Price range is not a huge issue, if you could cap it at top 20% of high end computers that'd be great. I feel above this region you're not getting a good bang for buck ratio.

If you could point me in the direction of a handful that'd be great. I'm not a technophobe, I've just not owned a laptop in several years.

Then don't buy a net book. Honesty the aluminum Macbook is quite a decent choice given your requirements, its really quite a nice machine, and the keyboard is really great. The whole trackpad offers tactile feedback, its one big clicky button.

 

[Visualante]

Then don't buy a net book. Honesty the aluminum Macbook is quite a decent choice given your requirements, its really quite a nice machine, and the keyboard is really great. The whole trackpad offers tactile feedback, its one big clicky button.

Oh really, that's good to hear. Then I'll definitely consider that then. Any other laptops worth considering on the MacBook competitor spectrum?

 

[dionysus]

Then don't buy a net book. Honesty the aluminum Macbook is quite a decent choice given your requirements, its really quite a nice machine, and the keyboard is really great. The whole trackpad offers tactile feedback, its one big clicky button.

It is also a huge jump in price from what he was originally proposing.

 

[Fio]

I was thinking about upgrading my CPU, but there's one detail which is concerning me a bit.
I have a Gigabyte GA-MA69VM-S2,and it says the following:

*Note: If you install AMD AM2+ CPU on AM2 motherbord, the system bus speed will downgrade from HT3.0(5200MHz) to HT1.0(2000 MT/s) spec; however, the frequency of AM2+ CPU will not be impacted. Please refer "CPU Support List" for more information.

What does that mean? How badly will it impact the performance of the new CPU?

 

[Zyzyxxz]

Oh really, that's good to hear. Then I'll definitely consider that then. Any other laptops worth considering on the MacBook competitor spectrum?

any laptop with a fast, and newer dual core and a video card will be fine.

The latest version of photoshop benefits from GPU acceleration so you would definintely want a video card in it.

If you are fine with the Mac price then go ahead but for a few hundred bucks less you could get an equally powerful computer. Unless you want the OSX experience just get an Asus, Lenovo, or a high end Dell laptop.

For CPU preferably you want a Core2Duo series 8000 or up and probably 2.4ghz or more.

GPU wise anything that is not integrated will be fine, if you want to do any gaming then find one that has a Geforce 9400, ATi equivalent, or higher.

 

[Visualante]

any laptop with a fast, and newer dual core and a video card will be fine.

The latest version of photoshop benefits from GPU acceleration so you would definintely want a video card in it.

If you are fine with the Mac price then go ahead but for a few hundred bucks less you could get an equally powerful computer. Unless you want the OSX experience just get an Asus, Lenovo, or a high end Dell laptop.

For CPU preferably you want a Core2Duo series 8000 or up and probably 2.4ghz or more.

GPU wise anything that is not integrated will be fine, if you want to do any gaming then find one that has a Geforce 9400, ATi equivalent, or higher.

The spec or price isn't so much the problem for me, I know I'll get a core2duo and GPU with almost every brand out there. I'm after a nice computer to use, regarding my comments on trackpads and keyboards. The dell ones tend to be crappy design I've found, perhaps that's changed recently but I would rather people recommend a brand or series model if that's possible. I'll check out the Asus and Lenovo machines. As I said I'm operating system agnostic.

 

[rass]

The spec or price isn't so much the problem for me, I know I'll get a core2duo and GPU with almost every brand out there. I'm after a nice computer to use, regarding my comments on trackpads and keyboards. The dell ones tend to be crappy design I've found, perhaps that's changed recently but I would rather people recommend a brand or series model if that's possible. I'll check out the Asus and Lenovo machines. As I said I'm operating system agnostic.

I have access to a few laptops -- Im using a MBP 15" which is about 2 years old and i love, but its nowhere near budget, my mum uses a white macbook which is about a year old and i quite like. I don't know what you mean by not tactile? I think the apple's laptops have the best trackpads, it made it hard for me to find my girlfriend a windows based laptop, because none of the trackpads felt good to me... to each his own i guess! She ended up getting a dell studio 15, haven't got photoshop on it yet but it seems to run everything else pretty well, the trackpad is better than the 2 hp notebooks I looked at, though I personally don't like the keyboard at all. Pretty attractive specs for the price though (AU$1,450 compered to the new aluminium macbook which is ~ AU$2,000 or the older style white macbook which is ~ AU$1,600)

 

[Hazaro]

I'd ask here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16

 

[Varna]

Do Xbox 360 game pads tend to work for most games on the PC?

 

[dionysus]

Do Xbox 360 game pads tend to work for most games on the PC?

A lot support it. And if they don't, there is third party software that enables the gamepad.

 

[godhandiscen]

I was thinking about upgrading my CPU, but there's one detail which is concerning me a bit.
I have a Gigabyte GA-MA69VM-S2,and it says the following:

*Note: If you install AMD AM2+ CPU on AM2 motherbord, the system bus speed will downgrade from HT3.0(5200MHz) to HT1.0(2000 MT/s) spec; however, the frequency of AM2+ CPU will not be impacted. Please refer "CPU Support List" for more information.

What does that mean? How badly will it impact the performance of the new CPU?

Depends on the game, but basically the connection between the CPU and the RAM will be slower. You will still see benefits in upgrading that CPU though. Also, do not think About SLI/Xfire since you will not see any gain with a slower hyper transport. Also, look at the CPU support list. You will need to update your bios, but you will be able to support the Phenom II X4 925, which is nice.

 

[Darklord]

I just remembered I haven't picked up an HDMI cable for my new monitor(BenQ E2200HD). It says it has a HDMI 1.3 connection. Are there HDMI 1.3 cables or will any do?

 

[Hazaro]

I just remembered I haven't picked up an HDMI cable for my new monitor(BenQ E2200HD). It says it has a HDMI 1.3 connection. Are there HDMI 1.3 cables or will any do?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10243

Yes there are 1.3 cables.

 

[Darklord]

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10243

Yes there are 1.3 cables.

Does it matter if the cable is 1.3, 1.3a or 1.3b? I'm guessing I need a high speed one too?

 

[Hazaro]

Does it matter if the cable is 1.3, 1.3a or 1.3b? I'm guessing I need a high speed one too?

I doubt any of that matters.

I just buy the 6ft cables from them.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10243&cs_id=1024008&p_id=3992&seq=1&format=2

I've had mine over 2 years and they still work fine.

 

[Gully State]

I have a problem with my PC and Mass Effect that's racking my brains. I have no idea how to troubleshoot it. Anyways, I recently decided to upgrade from 32-bit Vista to 64-bit Vista and put in a new terabyte HDD and 2 GB of DDR2-800 RAM along with it. With Vista 32-bit, I was getting ~50 FPS @ 1600x1200 16x AAF and 4x AA on Mass Effect. However, after I reformatting to Vista 64 bit, the same settings now result in sub 30 frame rates. This is kinda funny b/c the opposite has happened with Fallout 3. The game doesn't stutter anymore thanks to the extra RAM and bigger HD cache (32MB as opposed to 8 MB). Is there anything outside of videocard drivers I should consider?

My current setup

E8400- stock speed
4 GB DDR2-800 RAM.
Visiontek 4850 GPU

 

[Waikis]

http://www.hardware-infos.com/news.php?news=2908

German site ATI-Forum probably scored a coup of 2009 - according to their sources, ATI's RV870-based cards are already out at selected partners.

We cannot say was this leak was a reaction on our joint-exclusive story about nVidia's GT300 architecture, but one thing is for sure - ATI wants to bring out their Cypress board as soon as possible - planned for July 2009.

The alleged specifications of RV870 reveal that this chip is not exactly a new architecture, but rather a DirectX 11-specification tweak of the RV770 GPU architecture. Just like nVidia's GT300 architecture, the actual RV870 chip is manufactured in TSMC's 40nm half-node process, packing more transistors than GT200 chips. Regardless of what ATI says about nVidia and large dies, the fact of the matter is that ATI is making a large die as well - but the company will continue to use the dual-GPU approach to reach high-end performance.

The RV870 chip should feature 1200 cores, divided into 12 SIMD groups with 100 cores each [20 "5D" units], while RV770 was based on 10 SIMD group with 80 cores total [16 "5D" groups consisting out of one "fat" and four simpler ones]. Thus, it is logical to conclude that when it comes to execution cores, not much happened architecturally - ATI's engineers increased the number of registers and other demanding architectural tasks in order to comply with Shader Model 5.0 and DirectX 11 Compute Shaders. The core is surrounded with 48 texture memory units, meaning ATI is continuing to increase the ROP:Core:TMU. For the first time, ATI is shipping a part with 32 ROP [Rasterizing OPeration] units, meaning the chip is able to output 32 pixels in a single clock.

When it comes to products, ATI plans to launch four parts: Radeon HD 5850 and 5850X2 in more affordable pricing bracket and HD5870 and HD5870X2 for the high-end parts. While there were no clocks for the Radeon HD 5850/5850X2 parts, alleged clocks for HD5870 and HD5870X2 reveal that for the first time, an X2 part is clocked higher than a single-GPU part. Was this a requirement of SidePort memory interface, we are not aware atm.

http://brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/4/24/ati-radeon-5870-and-5870x2-specs-revealed.aspx

 

[Darklord]

Do Xbox 360 game pads tend to work for most games on the PC?

All games for windows games need to support it.

I doubt any of that matters.

I just buy the 6ft cables from them.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10243&cs_id=1024008&p_id=3992&seq=1&format=2

I've had mine over 2 years and they still work fine.

Ok thanks. Final thing, I noticed the card I bought(GTX260) it says this.

Video Output Function


* TV-Out (via S-Video to Composite)
* HDTV-out
* Dual-link DVI x 2
* VGA (via DVI to D-Sub adaptor)
* HDMI (DVI to HDMI adaptor)

Does that mean with HDMI I'll need to buy an adaptor too? Would that effect the quality at all?

 

[Waikis]

All games for windows games need to support it.



Ok thanks. Final thing, I noticed the card I bought(GTX260) it says this.

Video Output Function


* TV-Out (via S-Video to Composite)
* HDTV-out
* Dual-link DVI x 2
* VGA (via DVI to D-Sub adaptor)
* HDMI (DVI to HDMI adaptor)

Does that mean with HDMI I'll need to buy an adaptor too? Would that effect the quality at all?

Yeah you will either need a HDMI-DVI adaptor or a HDMI-DVI cable like this :
http://ijk.com.au/branch/ijk/product_info.php?cPath=22_467&products_id=109145

There wont be any quality drop.

 

[Darklord]

Ok. Thanks guys!

 

[Fio]

Depends on the game, but basically the connection between the CPU and the RAM will be slower. You will still see benefits in upgrading that CPU though. Also, do not think About SLI/Xfire since you will not see any gain with a slower hyper transport. Also, look at the CPU support list. You will need to update your bios, but you will be able to support the Phenom II X4 925, which is nice.

Thank you for your reply.
Here's another question that I think you and others can help me with. That's my current rig:

ATHLON 5000+ X2 64
GIGABYTE MA69VM - S2
2 GB DDR2 800
EVGA 8800 GT 512

I can't afford a major upgrade right now, it's either the CPU or the GPU. I play in 1440x900 and I love high framerates.
The reason that I'm planning on upgrading is because I want to play GTA4 and Empires: Total War, which are two games that I think that will run badly (will they?) on my current rig. So, what should I do? CPU or GPU?

 

[Waikis]

Thank you for your reply.
Here's another question that I think you and others can help me with. That's my current rig:

ATHLON 5000+ X2 64
GIGABYTE MA69VM - S2
2 GB DDR2 800
EVGA 8800 GT 512

I can't afford a major upgrade right now, it's either the CPU or the GPU. I play in 1440x900 and I love high framerates.
The reason that I'm planning on upgrading is because I want to play GTA4 and Empires: Total War, which are two games that I think that will run badly (will they?) on my current rig. So, what should I do? CPU or GPU?

:lol

Those two games will run badly no matter how good your rig is : p . Empires doesnt even dual core support FFS.

 

[brain_stew]

Do Xbox 360 game pads tend to work for most games on the PC?

Yup, most modern games will auto configure and even have button prompts as well. Its pretty much the de facto PC gamepad now. That's what I really love about the PC platform though, I have a Logitech MX518, X360 controller, Saturn USB and Driving Force Pro all with excellent support, so I can have perfect control in any game I want. You just can't match that flexibility on a console.

All games for windows games need to support it.



Ok thanks. Final thing, I noticed the card I bought(GTX260) it says this.

Video Output Function


* TV-Out (via S-Video to Composite)
* HDTV-out
* Dual-link DVI x 2
* VGA (via DVI to D-Sub adaptor)
* HDMI (DVI to HDMI adaptor)

Does that mean with HDMI I'll need to buy an adaptor too? Would that effect the quality at all?

It should come with the adapter.

 

[Hazaro]

All games for windows games need to support it.



Ok thanks. Final thing, I noticed the card I bought(GTX260) it says this.

Does that mean with HDMI I'll need to buy an adaptor too? Would that effect the quality at all?

I have an adapter that works fine, but you can just buy a DVI to HDMI cable
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10231&cs_id=1023104&p_id=2404&seq=1&format=2

It should come with the adapter.

DVI to VGA, but few come with DVI to HDMI

 

[brain_stew]

I have an adapter that works fine, but you can just buy a DVI to HDMI cable
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10231&cs_id=1023104&p_id=2404&seq=1&format=2

DVI to VGA, but few come with DVI to HDMI

Hmm, all the cards I've bought recently have.

 

[Hazaro]

Hmm, all the cards I've bought recently have.

Depends on the type of card and brand. Some companies don't even include a DVI to VGA. :lol

 

[Darklord]

I have an adapter that works fine, but you can just buy a DVI to HDMI cable
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10231&cs_id=1023104&p_id=2404&seq=1&format=2

DVI to VGA, but few come with DVI to HDMI

Would this one be ok then? Link.

I just read for 1080p native screens it should be high speed but I can't even tell if it is or isn't. :|
Sorry for all the questions but I don't want to get my new PC then find out I'm missing a bit or something wrong.:lol

Depends on the type of card and brand. Some companies don't even include a DVI to VGA. :lol

This is the card. http://us.msi.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=N260GTX-T2D896_OC_V2&class=vga

Not sure what it includes though.

 

[rass]

I just remembered I haven't picked up an HDMI cable for my new monitor(BenQ E2200HD). It says it has a HDMI 1.3 connection. Are there HDMI 1.3 cables or will any do?

how is the monitor? Im picking up my pc in a couple of hours and haven't decided on a monitor yet, I think CPL stock that one?

 

[Darklord]

how is the monitor? Im picking up my pc in a couple of hours and haven't decided on a monitor yet, I think CPL stock that one?

I actually haven't used it yet however I bought it on the fact everyone I asked said it's by far the best and highly recommended. I wasn't even recommended another monitor, everyone said the E2200HD. I checked a few benchmarks and it seems to be high up there on those too.

 

[Hazaro]

$13 :[

Check your graphics card box to see if it has a DVI -> HDMI adapter.

It might be cheaper to buy an HDMI cable + adapter also. Plus you can always reuse the HDMI cable later.

Or you could just buy the DVI -> HDMI cable you linked.

 

[Grayman]

ut oh I better figure all this out before my parts get here.

I actually do not have a newer monitor so i'll be using a CRT(VGA) or "720p" tv (hdmi, i assume vga as well)

Looks good ;Package Contents:
Driver Disk
User's Manual
Power Cable
DVI to VGA/D-sub Adapter
DVI to HDMI Adapter
S/PDIF Cable

This though I am not sure about:
Minimum of a 500 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 36 Amp Amps.)

Power Supply 430 Watts 80 PLUS

 

[rass]

I actually haven't used it yet however I bought it on the fact everyone I asked said it's by far the best and highly recommended. I wasn't even recommended another monitor, everyone said the E2200HD. I checked a few benchmarks and it seems to be high up there on those too.

awesome, do you have any idea if the E2400HD is as good? im going to do some googling. It doesn't seem much more expensive.

 

[brain_stew]

Would this one be ok then? Link.

I just read for 1080p native screens it should be high speed but I can't even tell if it is or isn't. :|
Sorry for all the questions but I don't want to get my new PC then find out I'm missing a bit or something wrong.:lol



This is the card. http://us.msi.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=N260GTX-T2D896_OC_V2&class=vga

Not sure what it includes though.

Any HDMI cable will work just fine, ignore the marketing bollocks and just buy a cheapy one.

 

[Hazaro]

ut oh I better figure all this out before my parts get here.

I actually do not have a newer monitor so i'll be using a CRT(VGA) or "720p" tv (hdmi, i assume vga as well)

This though I am not sure about:
Minimum of a 500 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 36 Amp Amps.)

Power Supply 430 Watts 80 PLUS

The Antec EA 430w is a solid PSU, you should have no problems.

 

[Coldsnap]

I'm just curious if any of you people game on your laptop?

I just moved into a studio apartment and my gaming PC is really bugging me. First off I built it 4 months ago and have yet to play one single game on it. So I have a very loud, very hot, and very large monitor in my very small apartment. I'm about to sell this thing and buy a laptop with the money. I really only plan on playing Battlefield heroes, Diablo 3, Starcraft, and the Final Fantasy MMO sequal if it ever comes out. I figure if I get a 15"+ laptop and sync my xbox controller I should be happy? Maybe if someone who games on their laptop could give me some pros and cons, much appreciate it.

 

[volt01]

I'm just curious if any of you people game on your laptop?

I just moved into a studio apartment and my gaming PC is really bugging me. First off I built it 4 months ago and have yet to play one single game on it. So I have a very loud, very hot, and very large monitor in my very small apartment. I'm about to sell this thing and buy a laptop with the money. I really only plan on playing Battlefield heroes, Diablo 3, Starcraft, and the Final Fantasy MMO sequal if it ever comes out. I figure if I get a 15"+ laptop and sync my xbox controller I should be happy? Maybe if someone who games on their laptop could give me some pros and cons, much appreciate it.

My question to you is, why would buying a laptop make you play pc games more then you already do now?

 

[Coldsnap]

My question to you is, why would buying a laptop make you play pc games more then you already do now?

I don't want to sell my PC because I don't use it for games, I want to sell it because its not working out in my small space.

 

[volt01]

I don't want to sell my PC because I don't use it for games, I want to sell it because its not working out in my small space.

Is it really taking up that much space? If you have a laptop that you intend to play games on, you'll still need to set it up on a desk. I guess the only benefit would be that when your not using the laptop you could put it away, and use the desk for something else.

For a more productive answer, My main problem with gaming laptops is that it's a pain in that you spend much more than is needed for the same level of performance. Also, you do not have the ability to upgrade a laptop, that you would otherwise have with a desktop.

 

[Zombie James]

Got my E5200 overclocked to 3GHz, everything's nice and stable

 

[brain_stew]

Got my E5200 overclocked to 3GHz, everything's nice and stable

Only 3ghz? Pfft, she's begging for more!

Go on, see if you can manage a 1ghz OC.

 

[Labombadog]

Only 3ghz? Pfft, she's begging for more!

Go on, see if you can manage a 1ghz OC.

So true! I saw a guy at ocn.net getting close to 4.Ghz on his!!!

 

[Decado]

Is the HIS Hightech H485FN512P Radeon HD 4850 512MB card worth getting, or are there better alternatives than it for around the same price ($170 Cdn)?

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161259

 

[K.Jack]

I'm just curious if any of you people game on your laptop?

I just moved into a studio apartment and my gaming PC is really bugging me. First off I built it 4 months ago and have yet to play one single game on it. So I have a very loud, very hot, and very large monitor in my very small apartment. I'm about to sell this thing and buy a laptop with the money. I really only plan on playing Battlefield heroes, Diablo 3, Starcraft, and the Final Fantasy MMO sequal if it ever comes out. I figure if I get a 15"+ laptop and sync my xbox controller I should be happy? Maybe if someone who games on their laptop could give me some pros and cons, much appreciate it.

I game exclusively on my notebook. 15.4" M860TU (resold as the Sager NP8662): 1680x1050, Core 2 Duo T9800 @ 2.93Ghz, 4GB DDR3, 9800M GT, 160GB 5400rpm HDD (needs upgrading). I'm actually looking to sell it for about ~$1100, as I have a new project that needs the funds.

Spoiler

yes, shameless marketing attempt... but for real, pm for details if interested.

Of course the huge con is that you pay more for less. This notebook currently starts at $1392, a price for which you could build a killer desktop, but I'm completely satisfied by my decision, as I'm never home enough to get any enjoyment out of a static desktop.

 

[madmook]

how is the monitor? Im picking up my pc in a couple of hours and haven't decided on a monitor yet, I think CPL stock that one?

I have a 2200hd. I'm not a hardcore videophile or anything (I've never even seen any fancy schmancy pva/mva/ips lcds in action), and imo the BenQ is alright image quality-wise. I mostly bought it because its got dvi, vga and hdmi inputs. Built-in speakers are shit, though.

 

[Darklord]

I have a 2200hd. I'm not a hardcore videophile or anything (I've never even seen any fancy schmancy pva/mva/ips lcds in action), and imo the BenQ is alright image quality-wise. I mostly bought it because its got dvi, vga and hdmi inputs. Built-in speakers are shit, though.

Maybe fiddle with some settings? I remember my friend made his LCD look 10 times better with only a few tweaks.

I think it's obvious the speakers are crap though. Why do companies even brother? I won't even use them.

 

[madmook]

Maybe fiddle with some settings? I remember my friend made his LCD look 10 times better with only a few tweaks.

Let me know what tweaks. I use "standard" mode for regular use, and "rgb" mode when watching movies via PS3. The other modes (photo, dynamics, movie) all do weird things imo (like crushing blacks) and I don't like them. Again, I am satisfied overall with it, but its not mind-blowing or anything.

 

[Darklord]

Let me know what tweaks. I use "standard" mode for regular use, and "rgb" mode when watching movies via PS3. The other modes (photo, dynamics, movie) all do weird things imo (like crushing blacks) and I don't like them. Again, I am satisfied overall with it, but its not mind-blowing or anything.

He just used the settings in the Nvidia control panel. I don't what what you have but if you have a graphics card you should have some control panel. The digital vibrance setting gives it a lot more colour.

 

[godhandiscen]

Thank you for your reply.
Here's another question that I think you and others can help me with. That's my current rig:

ATHLON 5000+ X2 64
GIGABYTE MA69VM - S2
2 GB DDR2 800
EVGA 8800 GT 512

I can't afford a major upgrade right now, it's either the CPU or the GPU. I play in 1440x900 and I love high framerates.
The reason that I'm planning on upgrading is because I want to play GTA4 and Empires: Total War, which are two games that I think that will run badly (will they?) on my current rig. So, what should I do? CPU or GPU?

CPU, no question, GTA4 NEEDS a quad core.

 

[Liberty4all]

Gaf I need some help.

I haven't gamed on a PC for years ... just want to know if either of these are any good for gaming (keep in mind prices are Canadian):

http://www.theshoppingchannel.com/p...ment+pc+612500.do?&N=100339&Ns=P_DATE_CREATED

Or:

http://www.theshoppingchannel.com/p...tion+pc+612633.do?&N=100339&Ns=P_DATE_CREATED


I like the easy pay option on this site but have no idea if these comuters are actually any good or not.