-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Official NBA2K9 GAF Season...6(?) Thread!
- Thread starter Smokey
- Start date
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
spurs, pistons? charsace or anarchous one! lets go dudes before the niners game ruins my afternoon!
Herpes Reasons
Banned
Orlando @ Hawks. you're last on my list Dmczaf, when can you play?
ecnal
Member
so what's going on w/ rebounding?
im getting out rebounded nearly every game (offensively and defensively) and i have boozer, shaq, okur, etc...
shaq getting out rebounded by people playing SFs at the PF; boozer getting boxed out by SGs getting offensive boards...
wtf is going on... i started using pachulia (he has really high offensive/defensive rebound stats) and he goes like 3 straight games doing nothing (4 rebounds in 3 games vs teams that have significantly smaller/lower rated rebounders)
all of my guys have better rebounding stats than any of the teams i've played recently, but it's still a massacre on the boards--shaq/boozer getting boxed out by guys half their size is ridiculous.
im getting out rebounded nearly every game (offensively and defensively) and i have boozer, shaq, okur, etc...
shaq getting out rebounded by people playing SFs at the PF; boozer getting boxed out by SGs getting offensive boards...
wtf is going on... i started using pachulia (he has really high offensive/defensive rebound stats) and he goes like 3 straight games doing nothing (4 rebounds in 3 games vs teams that have significantly smaller/lower rated rebounders)
all of my guys have better rebounding stats than any of the teams i've played recently, but it's still a massacre on the boards--shaq/boozer getting boxed out by guys half their size is ridiculous.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
i noticed if your guys are low on stamina they rebound poorly, but thats not the only reason.
ecnal
Member
my rotations are fine for keeping people well rested.
look at the game stats i had vs the cavs--he had 19 offensive boards, and boozer only had 4 boards for the entire game :lol
i was literally getting out rebounded in the first couple minutes--full stam shaq + boozer.
i also got significantly out rebounded by the heat too, which makes absolutely no sense.
look at the game stats i had vs the cavs--he had 19 offensive boards, and boozer only had 4 boards for the entire game :lol
i was literally getting out rebounded in the first couple minutes--full stam shaq + boozer.
i also got significantly out rebounded by the heat too, which makes absolutely no sense.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
i agree with you, but ive been on both sides (where i am getting lots of boards, and where im getting outrebounded).
not sure what the cause of it is!
not sure what the cause of it is!
ecnal
Member
Smokey said:
lol i was gonna say, the only time i ever get a decent amount of rebounds is vs you in games that don't count. :lol
my game vs the bulls was about even on rebounding... shaq/boozer vs gooden/scrub centers. i should have dominated on the boards that game.
i'm 16th in the league in rebounding and the heat are #1 :lol :lol
cerrius is a very good player too, so there has to be something that's player controlled influencing rebounding.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
didn't you up defensive rebounding smoke? what is it in currently?
Herpes Reasons
Banned
the only problem i see left is the rebounding issue. if you look at rebounding avg. the only one in double digit avg is bosh at around 11. everyone else below 10. compare that to nba avg, that's low.
Ok, I'm continuing to hear about guys not following rules in their games and it's hurting our leagues a bit.
* Full court pressure *
No full court pressure at all in the first 3 quarters unless you are down by 10. Full court pressure is fine in the 4th quarter. This means DO NOT bother dogging the ball handler as he brings up the ball. There is no point in doing this all it does is irritate others.
I don't care if you do this in random games, do NOT do this in our league games. Pick up the ball handler once they are across half, making sure not to bump them into an animation that makes them commit an "over and back" violation. If a violation occurs, hold the ball when inbounding to get the 5 second violation so you can give the ball back to the other team.
One point to make though: in the last two minutes of a game it doesn't matter if you are up or down. Pressure all you want.
Diddy you have been doing this enough that people have mentioned it to me. You did it in our game, I told you not to and then you started doing it again. Break the habit please.
* Stealing inbounds passes *. This is freakin BS. Don't go jumping for inbound pass steals. It's cheesy, it's cheap and it's not allowed. If you get an inbound pass steal because your computer controlled player jumps the pass (I had it happen in my game against Cerrius) then there is nothing we can do. But let the inbound pass come. You can be close to the pass receiver but do not try for the tip.
* Manually double teaming *
DO NOT manually double team. You can NOT let the computer guard the ball handler and then bring the defender you are controlling over to double the ball. This is the weakest, cheesiest crap you can do on defense IMO. I find it freakin sad that some of you don't even attempt to play manual defense (on HOF the computer doesn't even react to pump fakes and jab fakes if their defensive awareness is high enough - man up). But if you play that style then stay with your man. If you are controlling your PG then you better stay with the player you are matched up with. Float the pass lanes a bit? Ok. Bring him down to double? NO
* Isomotion. Isomotion. Isomotion. Isomotion. Isomotion. Isomotion. *
We are playing a sim league. In a sim league I do think it is unnecessary to do two, three, four maybe even five strings of Isomotion moves together. I'm not talking about doing realistic dribble moves. I'm talking about sitting at the top of the three point line, calling an Isolation play and then just doing isomotion moves for 15 seconds of the shot clock. It's not realistic and it is a bit of an exploit.
The reason it can be a bit of an exploit is that the defense can be forced into unrecoverable animations. If the player on defense is holding the left trigger with a poor defender while you do isomotion moves, well then that's their mistake (left trigger will take you WAY outta position at times if you are defending a player with a high ball handling skill).
But on defense you can move your defender five feet off the ball handler, not hold down the left trigger at all and the game will still lock on the ball handler and force the defender into the same animations as if you were holding down the left trigger. Try it out. When playing defense don't hold the left trigger at all and see how the little graph will still pop up under your defender showing the hot zones and see how your defender will move closer to the ball handler and a lot of times body up the ball handler. This usually happens due to the ball handler doing isomotion moves.
Am I saying stop using Isomotion? No, but if it is a very very large part of your arsenal then simmer down a bit please. We have some incredible players in this league and we have some guys that are still learning the game. Playing by our rules keeps the playing field a little bit more balanced.
*Points in the paint*
We don't have a perfect rule on this but it works. Some have suggested that it should be a percentage of a teams total points. We will never go that route. Sorry. If a team is ice cold then they need to go inside and hit some shots to build some momentum. Plus I do not want you guys to have to have a calculator by you during your games so you can do the math to make sure you are not going over the limit. What we want teams to start doing is quickly write down the second chance and fast break points after your game FOR BOTH TEAMS and put them in a post in the thread after your game. Nothing huge. Our hope is that with both players doing it and posting the number for both teams will enforce an honor system.
If you are currently a player that either jacks threes or goes for dunks then you need to develop a mid range game. We are attempting to play a sim league and in real life players do take two point shots. I've seen it with my own eyes.
One other thing I have heard complaints about.
- throwing long passes off rebounds. Sorry nothing illegal about this. If the other team is killing you with fastbreaks after your misses then take better shots and tune your coaching slider so that you are getting back on defense quicker. Bad shots equal bad rebounds. Live and die by your shot selection.
I hope everyone can agree that these are reasonable rules for us. Not trying to single anyone out at all. Just read and adapt if you need to.
* Full court pressure *
No full court pressure at all in the first 3 quarters unless you are down by 10. Full court pressure is fine in the 4th quarter. This means DO NOT bother dogging the ball handler as he brings up the ball. There is no point in doing this all it does is irritate others.
I don't care if you do this in random games, do NOT do this in our league games. Pick up the ball handler once they are across half, making sure not to bump them into an animation that makes them commit an "over and back" violation. If a violation occurs, hold the ball when inbounding to get the 5 second violation so you can give the ball back to the other team.
One point to make though: in the last two minutes of a game it doesn't matter if you are up or down. Pressure all you want.
Diddy you have been doing this enough that people have mentioned it to me. You did it in our game, I told you not to and then you started doing it again. Break the habit please.
* Stealing inbounds passes *. This is freakin BS. Don't go jumping for inbound pass steals. It's cheesy, it's cheap and it's not allowed. If you get an inbound pass steal because your computer controlled player jumps the pass (I had it happen in my game against Cerrius) then there is nothing we can do. But let the inbound pass come. You can be close to the pass receiver but do not try for the tip.
* Manually double teaming *
DO NOT manually double team. You can NOT let the computer guard the ball handler and then bring the defender you are controlling over to double the ball. This is the weakest, cheesiest crap you can do on defense IMO. I find it freakin sad that some of you don't even attempt to play manual defense (on HOF the computer doesn't even react to pump fakes and jab fakes if their defensive awareness is high enough - man up). But if you play that style then stay with your man. If you are controlling your PG then you better stay with the player you are matched up with. Float the pass lanes a bit? Ok. Bring him down to double? NO
* Isomotion. Isomotion. Isomotion. Isomotion. Isomotion. Isomotion. *
We are playing a sim league. In a sim league I do think it is unnecessary to do two, three, four maybe even five strings of Isomotion moves together. I'm not talking about doing realistic dribble moves. I'm talking about sitting at the top of the three point line, calling an Isolation play and then just doing isomotion moves for 15 seconds of the shot clock. It's not realistic and it is a bit of an exploit.
The reason it can be a bit of an exploit is that the defense can be forced into unrecoverable animations. If the player on defense is holding the left trigger with a poor defender while you do isomotion moves, well then that's their mistake (left trigger will take you WAY outta position at times if you are defending a player with a high ball handling skill).
But on defense you can move your defender five feet off the ball handler, not hold down the left trigger at all and the game will still lock on the ball handler and force the defender into the same animations as if you were holding down the left trigger. Try it out. When playing defense don't hold the left trigger at all and see how the little graph will still pop up under your defender showing the hot zones and see how your defender will move closer to the ball handler and a lot of times body up the ball handler. This usually happens due to the ball handler doing isomotion moves.
Am I saying stop using Isomotion? No, but if it is a very very large part of your arsenal then simmer down a bit please. We have some incredible players in this league and we have some guys that are still learning the game. Playing by our rules keeps the playing field a little bit more balanced.
*Points in the paint*
We don't have a perfect rule on this but it works. Some have suggested that it should be a percentage of a teams total points. We will never go that route. Sorry. If a team is ice cold then they need to go inside and hit some shots to build some momentum. Plus I do not want you guys to have to have a calculator by you during your games so you can do the math to make sure you are not going over the limit. What we want teams to start doing is quickly write down the second chance and fast break points after your game FOR BOTH TEAMS and put them in a post in the thread after your game. Nothing huge. Our hope is that with both players doing it and posting the number for both teams will enforce an honor system.
If you are currently a player that either jacks threes or goes for dunks then you need to develop a mid range game. We are attempting to play a sim league and in real life players do take two point shots. I've seen it with my own eyes.
One other thing I have heard complaints about.
- throwing long passes off rebounds. Sorry nothing illegal about this. If the other team is killing you with fastbreaks after your misses then take better shots and tune your coaching slider so that you are getting back on defense quicker. Bad shots equal bad rebounds. Live and die by your shot selection.
I hope everyone can agree that these are reasonable rules for us. Not trying to single anyone out at all. Just read and adapt if you need to.
Zep said:
This year if you set your slider so that you fastbreak you will get out there quick. If the other team is shooting a lot of long range jumpers and turning the ball over you can actually make them pay for it. It's not like it used to be.
If you have a bad rebounding team though you will get eaten up though. If you leak out you better get the board.
Smokey said:
yeah sliders are fine for it. I seem to have a pretty good balance of games where I get a lot of offensive boards and others where I get nothing.
Truelize said:
Everybody needs to read this
Thanks for taking the time to write this up True.
Full court pressure, manual defense are two things that need to paying attention to.
This will start in week 5.
Also for those who have played against me for any amount of time, you know that ISOMOTION is a huge part of my game. I don't think I'm cheesey w/ it, just happen to be really good at using it. Does anybody have any complaints about how I play?
If so I'd like to hear it...constructive criticism is always good.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
smokey isn't this what happened in my last play against you with yao ming?
ecnal
Member
Truelize said:
varejao is the only person on your team with a 90+ Oreb stat. johnson had 6 Oreb (87) vs boozer who has one of the highest Dreb stats (92)--and boozer only had 4 boards for the entire game :lol
wally (horrible rebounding ratings) and jones (avg rebound ratings) had more offensive boards than shaq and boozer combined--that's not realistic, and neither of those players have "high offensive rebounding stats."
all of my big men have significantly higher avgs for rebounding than your men.
like i said earlier, i'm 16th in the league in rebounding, which should be absolutely impossible given my front court. i'm literally getting out rebounded by every team i face, even if they have a non-existent front court. :/
ecnal said:
Wally is an amazing rebounder.
Don't hate. lolWell maybe it is the user controlled rebounding then. But you shoot with your big men. You shoot jumpers far from the hoop with Okur, and you take mid range shots with Boozer. That will severely limit your offensive rebounds for sure. On the defensive side, I'm not too sure what to tell you. I wasn't really watching that part of our game (spent too much time watching me airball). But I do rotate players really quickly. I use 4 or 5 big men each game and I never play them past 3 bars of energy.
Are you manually boxing out? Do you switch to a big man as soon as the other team takes a shot and box out?
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
oh, i thought you were yao... it says don't try for the tip either reset our game!
also i have broken some of these rules, didn't realize that some were rules (manual double teaming mostly)
reset our game! also i have broken some of these rules, didn't realize that some were rules (manual double teaming mostly)
FrenchMovieTheme said:oh, i thought you were yao... it says don't try for the tip either
also i have broken some of these rules, didn't realize that some were rules (manual double teaming mostly)
:lol
i could've been I don't remember. I was so worried about you getting the ball and making and getting a good look at a 3 to win the game, and next thing I know Yao tips the ball and AI gets the layup.
But yeah True did a good job of explaining everything so I fully expect everybody to be on the same page moving forward.
And Ill repost this...dunno if anybody saw it:
Also for those who have played against me for any amount of time, you know that ISOMOTION is a huge part of my game. I don't think I'm cheesey w/ it, just happen to be really good at using it. Does anybody have any complaints about how I play?
If so I'd like to hear it...constructive criticism is always good.
ecnal
Member
Truelize said:Wally is an amazing rebounder.
Well maybe it is the user controlled rebounding then. But you shoot with your big men. You shoot jumpers far from the hoop with Okur, and you take mid range shots with Boozer. That will severely limit your offensive rebounds for sure. On the defensive side, I'm not too sure what to tell you. I wasn't really watching that part of our game (spent too much time watching me airball). But I do rotate players really quickly. I use 4 or 5 big men each game and I never play them past 3 bars of energy.
Are you manually boxing out? Do you switch to a big man as soon as the other team takes a shot and box out?
well, i mean to be specific, i always pair okur with a strong rebounder--i'm fine taking jumpshots w/ okur, it's what he's good at.
boozer had 14 of his 16 points in the paint, i don't take mid range jumpers with him--i think i took two freethrow line jumpers with him.
i stopped manually boxing out/going for boards because i was getting killed on the boards to start the season. truthfully, i shouldn't have to manually switch to boozer to box out wally--it should happen automatically. varejao getting boards is fine, big z getting boards is fine, but getting absolutely demolished by avg to horrible rebounders is beyond me.
apparently my manual box outs weren't the problem because the CPU can't get boards either. i mean boozer getting 4 boards in a game vs people that have lower rebounding stats, getting out rebounded by the heat, having an even rebounding game vs the bulls = game broken imo.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
i didn't have any problem with it smokey. you did use it a lot with iverson but iverson in the game looked identical to real life, nothing cheesy about it. i just gave you a lot of space and luckily you didn't beat me with long range J's too many times because i backed off (you did hurt me because i got juked out of my knickers though)
Herpes Reasons
Banned
i respectfully disagree. PIP limit has to be dynamic. You're telling if i've reached 50 PIP and im down 2 points with X number of seconds left, i cant drive to the basket for a layup/dunk even though the opportunity shows itself? that totally changes the dynamic of the situation. And what if im shooting cold and i've reached the limit? in order for me to start hitting outside shots if i do layups/dunks. but i can't do that because i've reached the pip limit. that becomes a catch 22 situation. i've lost a couple of games because i tried to honor the 50 point limit and i got real cold from midrange/outside real quick.Truelize said:
And how about if its a low scoring game and this is where i bring dynamic limit. let's say you have 50pip and you end up with 65 total points. the % in that is around 74% pip.
shut the hell up ecnal, i know you're gonna quote this! lol
You want us to start writing down our 2nd chance points for every game, but not for a dynamic limit %? Maybe i was thinking of using the dynamic limit only if you feel your opponent passed X amount of %. Almost like a red flag/review playback in football. if the coach feels there's an error its reviewed. in other words, if you feel your opponent passed let's say 74% in pip, write down your opponents 2nd chance points, fastbreak, etc and let the admins review. in these scenario, only games being redflagged gets a review from admins. less work for each team and the admins.
why am i the only one solely being calledout :lol ive seen ALOT worse things happen in games than defending the PG off the inbounds, it isnt that much of a game breaker and ive toned it down a lot since you told me about it.
but im glad you guys are enforcing manual d now, at least 80% of the time. there are times when it isnt smart to do it though,like when the opponent is swinging the ball around to try to get a good shot,if you keep switching defenders it causes a big mess. if my opponent has the ball in his hands and holds it in a triple threat position for at least 1 second i will manually defend them,but if they receive a pass and make a move right away and you try to switch to manual d,it will break the animation and the offensive player will blow right by the defender.
the full court pressure thing i havent seen yet,ppl have been pretty good about it.
PIP is huge also,ive seen boxscores on the site where one or both teams have PIP in the high 60s,even though i dont know how many of those are off 2nd chance points or fastbreaks.
but im glad you guys are enforcing manual d now, at least 80% of the time. there are times when it isnt smart to do it though,like when the opponent is swinging the ball around to try to get a good shot,if you keep switching defenders it causes a big mess. if my opponent has the ball in his hands and holds it in a triple threat position for at least 1 second i will manually defend them,but if they receive a pass and make a move right away and you try to switch to manual d,it will break the animation and the offensive player will blow right by the defender.
the full court pressure thing i havent seen yet,ppl have been pretty good about it.
PIP is huge also,ive seen boxscores on the site where one or both teams have PIP in the high 60s,even though i dont know how many of those are off 2nd chance points or fastbreaks.
DiddyBop said:
And that's the problem. The league site doesn't report 2nd chance points for whatever reason.
I think viakado and FMT bring up good points about the dynamic PIP, but I can see the other side too. Either way something that integral to the league won't be changed this season, that'll have to wait for season 7.
DiddyBop said:
sure i'm on now. Im playing halo 3 but if you want to play just send me a msg.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
spurs, pistons, bobcats.... you dudes around? (i know bobcats aren't)
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
niners win! adios favre!
lets roll hunter, ill be in the lobby
lets roll hunter, ill be in the lobby
viakado said:
You can disagree but I'm not gonna bend on it. If you are worried about going over the PIP total at the end of the game then don't abuse it during the rest of your game. Pretty simple. It's a catch 22 situation that you create.
I have actually had to take jumpers to end a close game because I was at my PIP limit. You know who's fault that is? MINE.
Pretty simple guys. If you are worried about scoring too many PIP then score in other ways. The mid-range game in 2K9 is good. And everyone has a couple of players that will hit open shots, so find those guys some shots by running some plays.
I don't think it really matters if you score 50 of your 54 points in the paint. I don't because I'm pretty sure you aren't gonna win games that way.
So you can suggest a ratio or percentage and it does sound like a good idea, but it's really not needed. It hasn't been needed for the 4 years before all the new guys showed up and I'm confident it isn't needed now.
Diddy you were singled out on the full court stuff because you did it to me and I've heard from others. No one else has even attempted to pick up the ball handler in the back court. I would have said something after our game if it had made a difference to the outcome, but my lag was so bad that game that anything I would have said then would have come across as excuse making.
Big addition regarding manual double teaming
I forgot to make one addition to this rule. You CAN double a player in the key. Only in the key. Only in the key. Only in the key. Only in the key.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
not that im going to ask it to be reset, but if we're playing by "the rules" then my game against the spurs should come down to a coin flip. he had 60 points in the paint, and he did have second chance points but it was the first game ive played in this league where i basically said WTF.
everytime down the floor it was iso motion tony parker, drive the lane, dish it off, etc.
sour grapes i suppose, but ive gotten my ass kicked by a few people and this is the first time ive felt like i was playing a random person. outlet passes after every miss, iso motion every time down, etc etc.
aside from that i lost b/c of rebounding, 48-28 give me a break :lol
everytime down the floor it was iso motion tony parker, drive the lane, dish it off, etc.
sour grapes i suppose, but ive gotten my ass kicked by a few people and this is the first time ive felt like i was playing a random person. outlet passes after every miss, iso motion every time down, etc etc.
aside from that i lost b/c of rebounding, 48-28 give me a break :lol
gg FMT. The rule says don't abuse iso and I didn't. Tony didn't have a ton of points he only had 8 and I wasn't isoing for half the shot clock. I had sixty pip, but 12 fastbreak points and 13 offensive rebounds. I could have sworn fastbreak and 2nd chance points don't count toward the pip? You can look at my guards and see that they scored most of their points outside the paint.
I've played smokey so he knows how I use iso motion.
I've played smokey so he knows how I use iso motion.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
as i said, im not asking for a reset, but DAW's game got reset and he had the same thing (deduct 2nd chance and fast break he was always under 50).
again, whether its against the rules or not that is smokeys thing, all i can say is that i felt like i was playing a game of NBA jam. just giving my input to smokey, if he wants to do anything about it is up to him its his league. i probably would have lost anyways but the game was no fun (even when i was winning early and into the 2nd)
again, whether its against the rules or not that is smokeys thing, all i can say is that i felt like i was playing a game of NBA jam. just giving my input to smokey, if he wants to do anything about it is up to him its his league. i probably would have lost anyways but the game was no fun (even when i was winning early and into the 2nd)
Can I chip in about manual defense?
I personally don't mind manual doubling. Double me all you want so I can get the other guy open...thing is though, some guys in this league are damn unstoppable. I HAVE to bring another guy to bother Yao because that guy doesn't fucking miss on single coverage
nvm i saw the post about doubling in the key. that's fine
but what about the last few minutes of the game? true if i'm playing you the last man i want making a play with the ball is lebron. i say you can double on the perimeter if it's late in the game
I personally don't mind manual doubling. Double me all you want so I can get the other guy open...thing is though, some guys in this league are damn unstoppable. I HAVE to bring another guy to bother Yao because that guy doesn't fucking miss on single coverage
nvm i saw the post about doubling in the key. that's fine
but what about the last few minutes of the game? true if i'm playing you the last man i want making a play with the ball is lebron. i say you can double on the perimeter if it's late in the game
Looking at FMT v. Hunter D box score the only people who had a shitload of PIP was Duncan and Horford, and rightfully so b/c they are post players. He shot quite a few outside jumpers with his guards looking at the individual shot charts of each Spurs player. So either he was getting a lot of 2nd chance points, or fastbreak points as I don't see anything wrong w/ his shot selection looking at his guards.
On his isomotion, he's pretty good at it, and I told him this. Now whether he abused it or not I obviously don't know (need a fucking 2k spectator cam), but when we played he didn't overdue it.
daw was given the L b/c in his game w/ aka even after 2nd chance and points were deducted...he was still above 50.
On his isomotion, he's pretty good at it, and I told him this. Now whether he abused it or not I obviously don't know (need a fucking 2k spectator cam), but when we played he didn't overdue it.
daw was given the L b/c in his game w/ aka even after 2nd chance and points were deducted...he was still above 50.
strikeselect
You like me, you really really like me!
Smokey, are fastbreak points counted towards the overall 50 PIP?
The formula I've always followed is PIP - second chance = total
is this correct or are we deducting fastbreak points too since we have to post those now?
The formula I've always followed is PIP - second chance = total
is this correct or are we deducting fastbreak points too since we have to post those now?
pheeniks said:
Nope. Not even in the last minute. You can double if the player goes to the rim, is in the key, play deny defense and keep the ball from a big gun or pick a big man in the post and try to cut off the lane. But I don't think it's a great idea to play a game by some sensible rules and then let it become "fromage 2008" at the end.
Winning a game should be from a consistent and effective game plan.
I know at the end of games I get tense if the other team has an allstar that is getting hot. I've been up plenty and had a team come back to tie the game in the last seconds. I loved the drama of that situation. Loved it. And I've been the guy making the big comeback too, with Bron getting crazy hot and going nuts. But if the game gets to the point where I lose because the other team is playing outta their minds at the end then maybe I should have tried something else when they started heating up. Know what I'm saying?
And guys don't be playing your games looking for opportunities to find someone breaking the rules. Play your games, compete and if something comes up that is ridiculous then we can chat about it.