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[Firestorm]

These are the best caliber sledsmen in the world, there has to be an amazing challenge. And yes it is sort of a freak accident. To say 12 crashes and only one results and serious injury/death is a freak accident, if more riders were being taken away on stretchers you may have more of a point. Again these people are the best in the world.

And the best in the world were telling Olympic organizers that they had concerns over the safety of the track.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

WHY THE FUCK IS THERE NOT A NET NEAR A TURN LIKE THAT!!!! DID THEY NEVER REALIZE THAT THOSE GIANT POSTS ARE A HAZARD IN CASE SOMEONE WIPES OUT???

Really pissed after seeing that video. He did not need to die if someone with half a brain designed that course.

 

[Joates]

And the best in the world were telling Olympic organizers that they had concerns over the safety of the track.

I admit, I havent heard a lot of the concerns, most Ive seen is just in regards to the speed of the track, which, to me, doesnt seem like a safety concern in and of itself (the pillars are a completely different story).

 

[Vizionblind]

horrible track design

 

[KHarvey16]

One of the first rules when designing anything complex is that nothing is free. Don't assume obvious solutions actually work in the context of the entire design.

 

[Wickerbasket]

It's a terrible accident, but I'm sure he was aware of the danger.

Must be terrible for his family.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

WHY THE FUCK IS THERE NOT A NET NEAR A TURN LIKE THAT!!!! DID THEY NEVER REALIZE THAT THOSE GIANT POSTS ARE A HAZARD IN CASE SOMEONE WIPES OUT???

Really pissed after seeing that video. He did not need to die if someone with half a brain designed that course.

well, lugers never fly out of the course when they wipe out... until now... further, that corner wasn't identified as being xtremely dangerous (even by the participants) - corner 13 was considered most dangerous. And if you've read the thread, our resident engineers have said that nets would not have helped...

Fortunately, the course at the next winter games and all subesequent courses will apparently be limited to speeds around 130 km/h. No more of these ultra-fast courses.

Whether they'll change other aspects of course safety is anyone's guess. The more I've read about this and the more time I've had to digest the information, the more I'm inclined to believe that it was a freak accident - pilot error combined with the world's fastest course. Maybe it shouldn't be so fast, maybe the last few turns shoudl not have been so technically demanding... I dunno. It's a tragedy and hopefully the experts can sort this out. And hopefully the lugers can continue to voice out and protest these types of tracks. Luckily, as I mentioned, it appears their organization has taken steps to ensure future courses will not be nearly as fast.

 

[Dr.Acula]

If he had stayed inside the track I highly doubt the forces would have been enough to kill him, seriously injure maybe, but not kill. The cause of death was most likely something along the lines of blunt force trauma, the result of him going from 90-0 in less than a second.

I watched the vid of the crash. He hits the wall coming out of the turn high on the top of the track, then he bounces down and hits the inside wall, then he's thrown out along the outside of the track. It wasn't a neat slide, he hit the outside wall, then the inside wall, then outside again. He may have died even if the outside wall was banked up higher.

Holcomb has since claimed that the course was designed backward, with tighter turns near the bottom where sleds max-out the speed. And American luger Tony Benshoof told NBC: "When I first got on this track, I thought that somebody was going to kill themselves."

Turn 13 banks sharply to the left and sends the sleds into a horseshoe-shaped curve that slings them to the finish line.

Two-time overall World Cup bobsleigh champion Steve Holcomb nicknamed it "50/50" after half the sleds crashed during the World Cup training run.

Some track modifications since then will give the drivers a little more leeway going into it during the Olympics.

"There is a human limit," says Canadian luge coach and former German doubles medalist Wolfgang Staudinger.

"I hope we don't increase the speed of our tracks. Whistler is on the limit."

"You never say never," says Terry Gudzowsky, the former Canadian bobsledder who heads the FIBT's track commission and who consulted on Whistler and Sochi track designs.

"Speed isn't the issue. If you're going 150 in a straight line that's one thing. I mean, you look at St. Moritz and at the bottom you're going in the high 140s or 145 on a good day but you're going relatively straight and into gentle corners. ... there's not a lot of G-forces there."

The Whistler Sliding Centre is designed to a maximum G-force of 5.02, and sleds will typically pull 2.5 or 3.0 Gs. By comparison, a Formula 1 car might hit three to four Gs when braking, and a top fuel dragster going from 0 to 160 km/h in 0.8 seconds creates a G-force of 5.0.

"The difference in Whistler is you're going 150 through [turns] 12, 13, 14," said Gudzowsky, who is an on-track official.

"There's a chicane with a lot of pressure and in 15 ... that's where speed becomes an issue. In future the intent will be to stay away from combining high speed and high G-forces.

"Sochi will be like Whistler in that both are relatively narrow and steep but ... there will be three uphill sections to control the speed. It will be quick. It will be technical. But we will be doing 150 here. We'll be in the 130s in Sochi."

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/bobsleigh/news/newsid=32012.html

 

[soco]

wow that's horrible.

 

[Coins]

What a tragedy. We shouldnt mourn too much, though. Most of us are going to awaken in the middle of the night with a chest pain or die of cancer. This guy was doing the thing he loved most in the world.

 

[Gattsu25]

anyone got a slow motion link?

FUCK THAT

anyone have a link of someone going through this track without dying?

horrible news, btw

 

[Papa]

No it wouldn't. Going from 90-0 in a few inches or feet is stressful enough to cause severe injury. Having that force reduced by 10-30% is unlikely to do anything to save his life. That impact is being taken directly by the body.

To put it in perspective, people have died bobsledding at slower tracks than this, and that's with a fuller sled than lugers ride. I'm not being mean, but the track didn't cause him to mess up his line. A difficult or fast course doesn't directly translate to a dangerous course. I'm glad I follow racing, because I feel I have a greater understanding of the risks inherent in this sport than some of you. If the lugers went slow enough to make an off-course excursion reliably safe, none of you would want the sport in the Olympics. We watch these sports because of the element of danger, yet get silly when disaster strikes. PEACE.

Actually, a wall (safety glass) could well have saved his life as it would've resulted in a glancing impact over a much larger surface area (stress = force / area). Also, the force would've been distributed in two dimensions, rather than the one dimension caused by the perpendicular collision with the column. I don't know where you pulled your "10-30%" figure from.

The lack of safety barrier was an appalling oversight by the designers. No, it can't just be let go as a simple mistake, as others in this thread have suggested. Professional engineers should not, under any circumstance, miss something so obviously dangerous. Even if the powers that be were putting pressure on to finish it quickly, no engineer should ever okay something like that. Safety is paramount; it's the basis of the profession.

People don't just "get silly when disaster strikes". They get outraged when something like this happens when it could've (and should've) so easily been avoided. God, that was such an ignorant comment, I don't know why I even bothered to address it.

Too many idiots in this thread stating "facts" they've made up.

 

[Noshino]

If he had stayed inside the track I highly doubt the forces would have been enough to kill him, seriously injure maybe, but not kill. The cause of death was most likely something along the lines of blunt force trauma, the result of him going from 90-0 in less than a second.

I don't think so, in the video you can see that he bounces between the walls, sideways, and then he goes off the track. I think that if he had lost control a few moments after the curve, he would have made it, unfortunately, it was still inside the curve.

Also, for the people stating that the wall shouldn't be that low, he goes over the higher wall, as seen in this picture.

Picture Source: NY Times

 

[Salazar]

Tragedy in its complete sense.

Reminds me of the black, black line about the Cresta Run. Variations on the theme of 'it's all about timing: make sure you're ready to die before you go'.

 

[Joates]

I watched the vid of the crash. He hits the wall coming out of the turn high on the top of the track, then he bounces down and hits the inside wall, then he's thrown out along the outside of the track. It wasn't a neat slide, he hit the outside wall, then the inside wall, then outside again. He may have died even if the outside wall was banked up higher.



http://www.ctvolympics.ca/bobsleigh/news/newsid=32012.html

Yes he bounces around an awful lot inside the track, while remaining at high speeds, he hit the pole and stopped which is what caused his death. Now of course that is not to say he couldnt have died while remaining inside the track. The human body can handle a lot of punishment at high speeds (sure youll suffer broken bones etc) but the fatal injury comes from the sudden stop which would not have occurred inside the track.

Had he stayed inside the track and died, I would call it a freak accident and leave it at that, but there seem to be measures that could have been put in place to prevent him exiting the track, nevertheless a freak accident.

So according to you, he already had sustained life ending injuries even before this picture was taken / hitting the pole?

Watch the vid again... He pretty much manages to stay on the sled right up until the point where he impacts the inside wall at the end of the corner which tosses him off the sled. Nothing about that seemed life threatening, pillars notwithstanding. Sure he would have been hurt, but the pillar ended his life.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Actually, a wall (safety glass) could well have saved his life as it would've resulted in a glancing impact over a much larger surface area (stress = force / area). Also, the force would've been distributed in two dimensions, rather than the one dimension caused by the perpendicular collision with the column. I don't know where you pulled your "10-30%" figure from.

The lack of safety barrier was an appalling oversight by the designers. No, it can't just be let go as a simple mistake, as others in this thread have suggested. Professional engineers should not, under any circumstance, miss something so obviously dangerous. Even if the powers that be were putting pressure on to finish it quickly, no engineer should ever okay something like that. Safety is paramount; it's the basis of the profession.

People don't just "get silly when disaster strikes". They get outraged when something like this happens when it could've (and should've) so easily been avoided. God, that was such an ignorant comment, I don't know why I even bothered to address it.

Too many idiots in this thread stating "facts" they've made up.

Plexiglass to prevent a low-chance impact could easily make the next turn a high-probability risk if it creates an aerodynamic hazard. Track design at this level is more than one-dimensional. You think about everything, including airflow around a track. With all these chutes and cavities created by a winding bobsled track, you don't think airflow is an issue? I've said it already, but this isn't the first track that's had open straights with trackside objects. Check footage of past Olympics.

I guarantee you someone considered the risk of a person catapulting off the track at that point, and that's why the exit of the turn has a high wall that tapers to a lower one. There are a million different angles that can result from a collision, so you have to account for the high-probability ones and not completely wreck the flow of the course.

I'm not stating facts or pretending to be an expert. I've clearly said I don't know what the pillars are there for (to support the roof, I guess) or what design factors resulted in the placement of the beams there, but it happened. I do however know that aerodynamics are important for racing, and creating an unnecessary wind tunnel on a high-speed section of a course is not advisable.

It's the people crying foul with little to no information that are off base here. You don't know enough to be outraged, period. I've designed various objects before, and I know you don't just throw pillars and beams around without reason. These are literally calculated decisions, so people should just stfu already. It's nice to have someone to blame, but make sure you know what the facts are before doing so. PEACE.

EDIT: Padding? What miracle foam did you discover? How thick did you plan on making this? You want a ratio of 100:1 padding to beam? I don't understand where some of you are getting your math. Given a human body of 150lbs decelerating from 90mph in that amount of time. f=ma. So that's an incredible amount of force, and there's no clever "safe barrier" or foam that can distribute that amount of force evenly enough to save him. It would have to deflect him at a controlled angle, which itself would be hard to control as he crashed at a crazy angle.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

wow im on crack

 

[Dr.Acula]

Had he stayed inside the track and died, I would call it a freak accident and leave it at that, but there seem to be measures that could have been put in place to prevent him exiting the track, nevertheless a freak accident.

So according to you, he already had sustained life ending injuries even before this picture was taken / hitting the pole?

Yes, I think he absolutely could have died even if he were inside the track, but you are right, flying out of the track greatly increased the chance of his death, and hitting a pillar made his survival near impossible. I've read accounts from sliders who have trained on the track, and a lot are saying the course is just too fast and too technical, especially near the bottom.

 

[Joates]

Plexiglass to prevent a low-chance impact could easily make the next turn a high-probability risk if it creates an aerodynamic hazard. Track design at this level is more than one-dimensional. You think about everything, including airflow around a track. With all these chutes and cavities created by a winding bobsled track, you don't think airflow is an issue? I've said it already, but this isn't the first track that's had open straights with trackside objects. Check footage of past Olympics.

I guarantee you someone considered the risk of a person catapulting off the track at that point, and that's why the exit of the turn has a high wall that tapers to a lower one. There are a million different angles that can result from a collision, so you have to account for the high-probability ones and not completely wreck the flow of the course.

I'm not stating facts or pretending to be an expert. I've clearly said I don't know what the pillars are there for (to support the roof, I guess) or what design factors resulted in the placement of the beams there, but it happened. I do however know that aerodynamics are important for racing, and creating an unnecessary wind tunnel on a high-speed section of a course is not advisable.

It's the people crying foul with little to no information that are off base here. You don't know enough to be outraged, period. I've designed various objects before, and I know you don't just throw pillars and beams around without reason. These are literally calculated decisions, so people should just stfu already. It's nice to have someone to blame, but make sure you know what the facts are before doing so. PEACE.

EDIT: Padding? What miracle foam did you discover? How thick did you plan on making this? You want a ratio of 100:1 padding to beam? I don't understand where some of you are getting your math. Given a human body of 150lbs decelerating from 90mph in that amount of time. f=ma. So that's an incredible amount of force, and there's no clever "safe barrier" or foam that can distribute that amount of force evenly enough to save him. It would have to deflect him at a controlled angle, which itself would be hard to control as he crashed at a crazy angle.

Im failing to grasp the "aerodynamic hazard" you speak of. How would extending plexiglass up 2-3 more feet cause such a hazard?

 

[Dr.Acula]

Im failing to grasp the "aerodynamic hazard" you speak of. How would extending plexiglass up 2-3 more feet cause such a hazard?

Stuff like this you just have to let go if you haven't studied it. People say the WTC shouldn't have collapsed because their BBQ doesn't melt when they use lighter-fluid. Maybe air turbulence causes a luger to flip like an F1 car driving over a pot-hole.

 

[Joates]

Stuff like this you just have to let go if you haven't studied it. People say the WTC shouldn't have collapsed because their BBQ doesn't melt when they use lighter-fluid. Maybe air turbulence causes a luger to flip like an F1 car driving over a pot-hole.

:lol Good point. That said though, he states it could pose a problem for the next turn, when in fact its the last turn of the course.. Hell a tube seems like it would be the safest method, not an aerodynamic hazard.

 

[KHarvey16]

Too many idiots in this thread stating "facts" they've made up.

Statements like this?

The lack of safety barrier was an appalling oversight by the designers. No, it can't just be let go as a simple mistake, as others in this thread have suggested. Professional engineers should not, under any circumstance, miss something so obviously dangerous.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Im failing to grasp the "aerodynamic hazard" you speak of. How would extending plexiglass up 2-3 more feet cause such a hazard?

Wind traveling parallel to the ground (both sides are opened) suddenly meets a wall. Where does it go?

How much ground clearance does a standard luge sled have? Is that low enough for ground effects to come into play?

Taking those two answers into consideration, do you think placement of a wall on a track (that's on the side of a mountain, btw...so yeah it's a bit windy) is a trivial matter anymore?

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but Introduction to Engineering Design was the second semester of my freshman year, and these are just three basic sets of questions I'd ask myself before placing something that might cause stability control going into the next corner. It's called turbulence. PEACE.

 

[Pimpwerx]

:lol Good point. That said though, he states it could pose a problem for the next turn, when in fact its the last turn of the course.. Hell a tube seems like it would be the safest method, not an aerodynamic hazard.

Ha! I missed that fact, so that shows me. So that eliminates that as a factor. Now I'm scratching my head. Maybe airflow is still an issue on exit. Don't know, but I'm sure there'll be a proper investigation. PEACE.

 

[Joates]

Wind traveling parallel to the ground (both sides are opened) suddenly meets a wall. Where does it go?

How much ground clearance does a standard luge sled have? Is that low enough for ground effects to come into play?

Taking those two answers into consideration, do you think placement of a wall on a track (that's on the side of a mountain, btw...so yeah it's a bit windy) is a trivial matter anymore?

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but Introduction to Engineering Design was the second semester of my freshman year, and these are just three basic sets of questions I'd ask myself before placing something that might cause stability control going into the next corner. It's called turbulence. PEACE.

Enclosing that part of the track would solve any problems turbulence may cause. I would still say any turbulence caused by another 2-3 feet of plexiglass would be negligible.

And wouldnt much of the turbulence created be enveloping the track, the air at the base of the track would remain relatively calm it would seem???

@ bolded: The walls would be parallel to the wind though, not perpendicular.

 

[Artadius]

There's no way they can fully enclose that part of the track... heck they can't obscure it even more than it is now. NBC has to have their money shot for the race finishes.

/sarcasm

 

[theinfinityissue]

man I had this drunk argument with a guy one time about how unbelievably dangerous this shit looked to me. he kept claiming that it was impossible to be thrown out of it because of centrifugal foce or something and I was totally sure he was wrong about that.

but hey, to die doing the stupid thing you love, we should all be so lucky.

 

[Papa]

Statements like this?

What?

 

[Wickerman]

I doubt they will show it on American TV. They don't like to show death

CBS showed it on the evening news

 

[KHarvey16]

What?

Those are unsubstantiated claims made based on the assumption that those features are easily implemented, were completely overlooked and had no reason to not be installed. There is absolutely no way you can know that.

 

[FilosopherStoner]

Some of us should be so lucky to die so quickly. He died doing what he loved, and by the looks of the video, it was over for him before he knew it.

I disagree with talks about cancelling this event though. Everyone knows this event is dangerous, if not it would be called the big fun slide event. Obviously paying with your life for a mistake isn't good either, but if there was no possible way to get injured/killed, would it still be an Olympic event?

 

[Perspicacity]

EDIT: Beaten

 

[Conceited]

Well you win some, you luge some

I feel bad for laughing.

 

[Papa]

Those are unsubstantiated claims made based on the assumption that those features are easily implemented, were completely overlooked and had no reason to not be installed. There is absolutely no way you can know that.

If they determined that the likelihood of death was too small to implement protection, they made a mistake. If they realised it was dangerous but decided to not install the protection for whatever reason (cost, time, etc.) they made a mistake. Regardless of the means to the end, they fucked up. Or maybe Engineers Canada operates under vastly different codes than Engineers Australia and I'm completely misinformed.

 

[Rezbit]

Such a shame

You know every other luger will be shitting themselves going down that track now.

 

[Movement]

Well you win some, you luge some

Someone just posted that last page. You really didn't see it?

Terrible news, RIP.

 

[TransTrender]

Seems like a terrible spot to have to have rigid pillars...

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Horrible video. Horrible course design. Who the fuck thought that was a good idea? Not much more can be said.

RIP.

 

[Perspicacity]

Someone just posted that last page. You really didn't see it?

Terrible news, RIP.

Sorry, didn't see. Thanks for keeping me on track.

 

[ronito]

Sorry, didn't see. Thanks for keeping me on track.

never post the same pun twice again.

 

[KHarvey16]

If they determined that the likelihood of death was too small to implement protection, they made a mistake. If they realised it was dangerous but decided to not install the protection for whatever reason (cost, time, etc.) they made a mistake. Regardless of the means to the end, they fucked up. Or maybe Engineers Canada operates under vastly different codes than Engineers Australia and I'm completely misinformed.

You don't have any idea what considerations had to be made. You are simply assuming the only reason to not include a fence or barrier were negligence or trading time and/or money for safety. On what basis do you make these assumptions?

 

[noisome07]

Sorry, didn't see. Thanks for keeping me on track.

Really?

REALLY?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

it happened so quickly it almost looked like it was in fast forward

 

[NetMapel]

Most unfortunate incident. Best wishes to all involved...

 

[AFreak]

It's completely insane and illogical to me that a track whose sides are that short, and in a sport this fast, has giant, sequential metal pillars right outside of it.

Because not having them would have saved his life? I mean the man is going 90 mph, I highly doubt anything besides the human blob could save someone going that fast. Also, it is more for the safety of the onlookers than the Luger. A body flying into a crowd at 90 MPH can do serious damage. One athlete (that knew the risks of his sport I might add) dead or 10 others hit by a flying body?

 

[Papa]

You don't have any idea what considerations had to be made. You are simply assuming the only reason to not include a fence or barrier were negligence or trading time and/or money for safety. On what basis do you make these assumptions?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that someone DIED due to the insufficient safety measures/poor design. When that happens, yes, it IS negligence.

 

[KHarvey16]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that someone DIED due to the insufficient safety measures/poor design. When that happens, yes, it IS negligence.

No, you are making the claim that there can be no technical limitation in place that makes adding some kind of barrier detrimental. You are sure of this and I want to know why.

 

[Mush]

I didn't even know this had happened till halfway through the Opening Ceremony. Very sad news. After watching the crash I'm still astounded that the organizers could make such a big oversight on the safety of that corner. RIP.

 

[Guardian Bob]

That was hard to watch.

 

[Ilive1up]

I know nothing of this event but this just my 2cents.

Why not make the final straight away a broad lane. like, right after the final turn it opens up right away into a 30 foot wide lane or something. I see from the video (I watched it, finally) that he hits the siding and that causes him to fly off. If it opens, right away, into an open landing zone, per say, it would prevent this stuff...I think.

Anway, tragic stuff. RIP