^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I was all the way down for the bro trip when I still thought we'd have good female characters. No female party members and no good female NPCs is when it becomes a problem, though.
E: v
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On Final Fantasy XV and female characters |2.0| This isn't even my final form
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I was all the way down for the bro trip when I still thought we'd have good female characters. No female party members and no good female NPCs is when it becomes a problem, though.
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sensui-tomo
Member
wasnt going to happen ever with this game, as nobody is playable outside of noct (except the dlc.)
It's not like this is par for course for Final Fantasy. Lightning and Fang in FF13 were mostly strong female characters, Ashe in FF12 was pretty no-nonsense as well. FFX-2 had an all female cast, and Yuna was also a pretty great co-lead character in FFX. Dagger and Freya were pretty competent in FF9, FF8 wasn't terribly exploitative, and Tifa and Aeris were some of the best characters in 7. And then there's Terra and Celes in FF6... and well, it looks like I'm rambling now.
Point is, it's ok for 15 to be a boys' outing if that's the story they wanted to tell this time. Sure, they could have done a lot better with what female characters they have - no arguments there. But to swear off the game entirely and condemn it to "the dumpster fire it deserves to be in" seems a bit harsh.
Even with Luna being a plot device and Gentiana also being a plot device, wasn't it the case that
Iris became a hunter in the World of Ruin? So why did Tabata restrict the world of ruin only to hammerhead and Insomnia? Why could we not see older Iris kicking ass and maybe showing her growth as a character after 10 years while exploring the World of Ruin a bit? We got to only see one proper timeskipped character out of the main cast. That would have been a great thing to see her and maybe Areana team up. it is CANON that Iris became a badass, but we never once see her on screen, what a wasted opportunity
To me it's not only a bit harsh, it's a complete overreaction.
I'm hopping in here having just seen Kingsglaive and I'm not entirely sure what separates that version of the character from what I've seen described in the OP, or why that version would be disappointed in this version or whatever. Luna in Kingsglaive is barely allowed to participate in the plot and time and time again scolded and patronized for trying to do anything of her own initiative aside from 'her duty'. The film takes time out of itself to reinforce the notion that Luna can't do anything aside be an objective for the otherwise entirely male cast of relevant characters to either be protected or taken.
As soon as she sits in the pilot seat of a dropship, she's shooed off by the main character with an insanely patronizing line about 'if they teach flight training in princess school', and she just silently acquiesces. Next, we see her leap out of that very same dropship to her apparent death because of her 'duty' only to be rescued from her own lack of judgment or apparent survival skills. If the film was trying to do anything here all it succeeds in is making Luna out to be irrational and a danger to herself in trying to do anything herself. She's given several 'outs' in terms of narrative hooks to push against the overwhelming tone of the film (
) and the film doesn't just ignore them, it actively admonishes her for entertaining those outs.
And I have to say I'm baffled by any suggestion of political shrewdness that Lunafreya exhibits. There's not a single point in the film where that comes up, nowhere she uses her abilities and political acumen to navigate a tough situation or do anything - everyone is just doing it around her and she's moving along with the tide.
I haven't seen a movie so blatantly out of touch with the times in a long-ass time. There are two female characters in the film and one background character, and if they aren't a tool for justifying manly angst, they're Luna and therefore actively pushed out from being an agent of her own destiny. From the excerpts of this article this just seems like an extension of the film. I don't see what potential the film gave her at all more than all of what it took from her.
EDIT: And I'm sure that scene where the Emperor and the King have a long, coded discussion about the 'object that was stolen' seemed cool to them at the time but given what the rest of the film says but it just kinda puts how the film effectively treats her into starker relief.
As soon as she sits in the pilot seat of a dropship, she's shooed off by the main character with an insanely patronizing line about 'if they teach flight training in princess school', and she just silently acquiesces. Next, we see her leap out of that very same dropship to her apparent death because of her 'duty' only to be rescued from her own lack of judgment or apparent survival skills. If the film was trying to do anything here all it succeeds in is making Luna out to be irrational and a danger to herself in trying to do anything herself. She's given several 'outs' in terms of narrative hooks to push against the overwhelming tone of the film (
particularly when it seems to be building up to her taking the ring's power for her own
And I have to say I'm baffled by any suggestion of political shrewdness that Lunafreya exhibits. There's not a single point in the film where that comes up, nowhere she uses her abilities and political acumen to navigate a tough situation or do anything - everyone is just doing it around her and she's moving along with the tide.
I haven't seen a movie so blatantly out of touch with the times in a long-ass time. There are two female characters in the film and one background character, and if they aren't a tool for justifying manly angst, they're Luna and therefore actively pushed out from being an agent of her own destiny. From the excerpts of this article this just seems like an extension of the film. I don't see what potential the film gave her at all more than all of what it took from her.
EDIT: And I'm sure that scene where the Emperor and the King have a long, coded discussion about the 'object that was stolen' seemed cool to them at the time but given what the rest of the film says but it just kinda puts how the film effectively treats her into starker relief.
To me it's stepping back twenty years instead of even keeping a basic amount of progress.
Luna role in Kingsglaive and XV:
Her expression lol.
But yeah, really disappointed regarding Luna, especially since she reminded me of Yuna too (similar names also ha ha).:/
Another thing that drives me absolutely nutso is the way that the characters will talk about women in banter. Prompto saying he can't choose between Cindy and Aranea. Gladio when walking around Lestallum exclaiming, "Damn, the women here are built!" and Prompto randomly blurting, "Sultry..." It's just gross. Ick, ick, ick, get it away.
Conversation with my friend had her mentioning that Luna is feeling like Yuna if Yuna lacked any agency of her own and didn't ultimately rebel against her self-chosen fate. Luna is committed to her one-track destination with little insight into her thinking or variation from it.
Yuna was a central figure of her story, while Luna is a moon orbiting Noctis (huh... name pun unintentional there).
QuantumZebra
Member
Yuuup.
People can trash on XIII all they want but it had a diverse cast, better combat system than XV, better music, and felt like Final Fantasy.
XV is a better game but not a better FF.
Well, that's disappointing and also entirely within my expectations just from seeing the trailers.
Also not shocked that there's someone posting bingo-worthy rhetoric to defend Cindy's bullshit design, but eh. Progress is slow. At least it's just one poster so far, so that's something!
Cements my decision to wait for the inevitable PC release, really. I think I will be able to enjoy it as a game, but I will be doing so with gritted teeth a considerable portion of the time. (For those who proclaim that I should "vote with my wallet" - first of all, it's really quite impractical to do so if you only dislike certain aspects of a product, and secondly, I am perfectly capable of enjoying those aspects I do enjoy while simultaneously criticizing other aspects, thank you very much.)
At least FFXIV exists to remind me that it's not all bad in Squeenix land. I hope FFXVI is much, much better on this front. One can only hope.
Also not shocked that there's someone posting bingo-worthy rhetoric to defend Cindy's bullshit design, but eh. Progress is slow. At least it's just one poster so far, so that's something!
Cements my decision to wait for the inevitable PC release, really. I think I will be able to enjoy it as a game, but I will be doing so with gritted teeth a considerable portion of the time. (For those who proclaim that I should "vote with my wallet" - first of all, it's really quite impractical to do so if you only dislike certain aspects of a product, and secondly, I am perfectly capable of enjoying those aspects I do enjoy while simultaneously criticizing other aspects, thank you very much.)
At least FFXIV exists to remind me that it's not all bad in Squeenix land. I hope FFXVI is much, much better on this front. One can only hope.
I was tempted to post that bingo card in the OP but I didn't want to come off overly antagonistic lol
Also I wish I could get into FFXIV bc it sounds right up my alley, but dat monthly fee ;A;
Sure he does.
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[IMG]http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131227111356/finalfantasy/images/5/5c/LRFFXIII_Nightmare.png[/IMG]Whoa, slow down there. I'm still playing FFXV, and the anachronistic modern fantasy stuff is still hard for me to swallow, but it's feeling more like a Final Fantasy game to me than FFXIII did.
I do prefer the diversity of FFXIII. I think FFXV's soundtrack is better thus far (Yoko Shimamura rarely disappoints). I'm liking FFXV's combat system more too (as opposed to 95% of my time in FFXIII doing "Libra - Auto-Battle - Stagger - Paradigm Shift - Win").
But Toriyama's portrayal of women became embarrassing the longer the XIII series dragged on. Some of those outfits in XIII-2 and Lighting Returns were just groan inducing. "Oh yes, make Lightning's chest bigger and add jiggle to it!" Good grief...
I often have "the wife test" when it comes to female outfits. Does she roll her eyes when the girl in the fetish outfit appears?
... Why yes, yes Cindy did make her roll her eyes and say "that's just stupid". Sorry, Cindy. You have failed the wife test.
Luna should have been inspired as less of a badly done Yuna clone who barely shows up and promoted more as a literal princess and queen like the queen herself
All we saw of Luna was a single speech that generally fell flat. We see none of her struggles or ambitions at all besides what was conveneint for the plot at the time.
Its embarrassing to women everywhere, and i'm not even a girl
All we saw of Luna was a single speech that generally fell flat. We see none of her struggles or ambitions at all besides what was conveneint for the plot at the time.
Its embarrassing to women everywhere, and i'm not even a girl
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Luna role in Kingsglaive and XV:
the fuck
THEY DON'T TEACH FLIGHT CLASSES IN PRINCESS SCHOOL
Relena Peacecraft is not a good female character either. She is also a 'princess and queen' in name only.Luna should have been inspired as less of a badly done Yuna clone who barely shows up and promoted more as a literal princess and queen like the queen herself
All we saw of Luna was a single speech that generally fell flat. We see none of her struggles or ambitions at all besides what was conveneint for the plot at the time.
I feel like this should be on a T-shirt or something.
Not true. I'm not a huge fan of her either, but she's got agency and is shrewd, manipulative, and worked the system like a boss. She was SUPPOSED to be queen "in name only" and turned the tables on the manipulators until she got her way. She's downright Machiavellian... as much as a pacifist can be. By the end of the series, people across the globe loved her and respected her. She became a symbol to the planet that far eclipsed the power of the other leaders.
>< People hate on Relena because they don't understand her struggle or journey in the series. She has more political savvy and mental strength in a single scene than Luna does in the entire game.
Her queen status was specifically because she would be too much of a threat to the world government on her own, which shows how much political and charismatic sway she had over the people that they wanted to control.
THAT is how you do a mentally strong charismatic female character who is separate from the main boy gang.
She is acknowledged multiple times as being even more pertinent to events surrounding the story than the Gundams themselves in many areas.
Spiritwalker
Member
Yeah they suck ass, sadly. All the more reason to have the XIV team do the next mainline title. They know how do write female chars.
To be absolutely fair, i don't think the issue is the devs not necessarily knowing how to write females, but Tabata's vision of the game not really having a high priority for them over pushing other aspects of the game, and the dev team making blatant excuses for not addressing that, some of which are sexist remarks in nature.
Choppasmith
Member
Thanks OP. I was very wary of picking up FF XV but the stuff you describe with Cindy and Luna sounds AWFUL. I liked your previous thread as I really like well written female characters over cringe-inducing fanservice characters any day.
semiconscious
Member
well, i'm not a woman, &, yeah, it's absolutely one of several problems i have with the game. ffxv: broverdose!
...Idk, I enjoyed the game but the female character issue was just this constant undercurrent of =/////// the whole way through. If you can get it cheapish though I'd definitely recommend it, it's crazy fun
SolicitorPirate
Member
How are Iris and Aranea? Are they any better?
I'll talk about them. Iris is actually pretty great, although she just gets forgotten after a certain point in the story, and Aranea is the love of my life and I wish the guys would stop objectifying her already uRGH.
SolicitorPirate
Member
Given how I'm already super salty about them not being party members (I really like their designs), knowing they're good just makes it worse >_>
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
I really enjoy the game, but I knew that every excuse Tabata was throwing out was bullshit. The all male party isn't justified in the slightest. The bromance would have worked the same with female party members. And the game's female characters are broad caricatures at best. There's no justification for
not being permanent party members, except for the devs not wanting them to be. It's clear from PE3 that the man does not consider women to be very valid heroes, unless they are getting stripped up the wazoo to power up.
I will platinum the game but no way I'll get the DLC, until there's actual playable women in the game. And not just 2 hours of some random DLC. Actual female party members.
Iris and Aranea
I will platinum the game but no way I'll get the DLC, until there's actual playable women in the game. And not just 2 hours of some random DLC. Actual female party members.
sensui-tomo
Member
I must ask, why must there be female party members? (this isnt against characters like those we've had in the past) But it seems like to me , and this is the worst thing i've probably written on gaf " MEN ONLY FUCK THAT, WHERES MY WOMEN " Again this arguement would probably work if the game had good/not one dimensional women in it, but please explain why women or a girl *must* be in the party. I mean we've had 2 FFs that had nothing but female only teams (aka FFX-2 and lightning returns( which also for the entire trilogy had a female lead in all 3 games)
(Please note if i've said anything offensive I never meant it as such, just really trying to understand the why of this statement)
(Please note if i've said anything offensive I never meant it as such, just really trying to understand the why of this statement)
eyeball_kid
Member
y
What the. Is that guy part of the dev team? That's pathetic, but it completely externalizes the thought process that results in game like this. Japan (on the whole) seems unable culturally to progress towards respect for women as equals, but if they want to capture a wider western audience they're going to have to try.
sensui-tomo
Member
He was part of PR or marketing iirc but uh ... man if that were in the west that dude probably would be forced to resign or have made multiple apologies for that statement he made (the one after that image)
APZonerunner
Member
I think the all male party is perfectly justified by the timbre and tone of the story they want to tell and the relationships they want to put at the fore, but what absolutely isn't justified is how pathetic the characterization of the female cast is.
I also wanna point out that FF15 is a rare modern FF without a single real character of colour on either the main supporting cast or the core cast, too. This is a bit of a bummer coming off the lineage of General Leo, Barret, Kiros, Lani, Kiros, Dona, Fran (and all the other Rava Viera), Sazh etc. There is one, I guess - Weskham - but he isn't exactly significant or stand-out in any way - he stands behind a bar all game.
In this sense FF15 just isn't a very diverse game.
I think one of the things that surprised me is -- I've been worried about FF15's women being underwritten for a while, but the big shock came in the form of the truth that everybody who isn't one of the core 4 guys or the main antagonist is completely underwritten in the game. It's not exclusive to the women (though that doesn't excuse the diversity issue any). Aranea is probably one of the better-developed supporting characters, however, purely on merit of she actually has an arc (even if it's an arc lifted entirely from her namesake in FF5 -
working for the empire, questioning the empire, leaving the empire to do some good
sensui-tomo
Member
You put this better than i did.
GringoSuave89
Banned
My man
APZonerunner
Member
Cindy's outfit is terrible and that's been discussed to death since she was announced (interestingly, the CG render of her with her top zipped up immediately improves the design enormously) but I think more interesting now is how she and the others fare as characters writing-wise, and that's... well, yeah. See this thread. Tifa can get away with her ludicrous mode of dress for a martial artist because she's actually a pretty well-written character, for instance. None of these lot have that luxury.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The female characters in XV are not strong.
But I guess I feel little urgency to discuss this like it's some endemic social issue because that's part of the XV design focus to feature men in particular.
I have little doubt that future FF games will feature strong women, in starring roles no less, so I don't know what we need to worry about right now.
When a pattern of neglect towards female characters appears in future FFs, then I'll be there to raise the alarm.
I just want to be clear that I think it's great this discussion has happened, and that others are moved to alarm right now. But personally, I don't think the results are in yet.
But I guess I feel little urgency to discuss this like it's some endemic social issue because that's part of the XV design focus to feature men in particular.
I have little doubt that future FF games will feature strong women, in starring roles no less, so I don't know what we need to worry about right now.
When a pattern of neglect towards female characters appears in future FFs, then I'll be there to raise the alarm.
I just want to be clear that I think it's great this discussion has happened, and that others are moved to alarm right now. But personally, I don't think the results are in yet.
aygomyownroad
Member
Not played FFXV yet, but in regards to Cidney, there has always been characters who wear stupid clothes, especially female there is at least one character a game who seems to wear something over the top.
Yes no cleavage but everything else for at the time was quite sexualized
Yes no cleavage but everything else for at the time was quite sexualized
DarkLordMalik
Member
Cor is underutilized
Arenae is underutilized
Irisi is underutilized
I mean we can write almost every side character from XV and they will be underutilized throughout the whole game. Infact the three party members that we do get, two of them are female. So I don't think this was something that was intentional from the devs. It is just something that was the unfortunate case of hamfisting a story rewritten over 10 years into a single game.
FFXV would have been a way better game if the story had nothing to do with Versus.
Arenae is underutilized
Irisi is underutilized
I mean we can write almost every side character from XV and they will be underutilized throughout the whole game. Infact the three party members that we do get, two of them are female. So I don't think this was something that was intentional from the devs. It is just something that was the unfortunate case of hamfisting a story rewritten over 10 years into a single game.
FFXV would have been a way better game if the story had nothing to do with Versus.
I disagree. Lightning's penchant for being physically and emotionally abusive is downplayed massively in FFXIII, which really smacks of seeing women as inherently unthreatening. Vanille is the generic cooky, perky girl and Fang is the fussy mom. Final Fantasy XIII is extremely conservative when it comes to gender roles and character archetypes.
The series as a whole is just really bad about this.
UberTag
Member
Considering this mentality comes from the same man who gave us Aya Brea and her shredded clothes in The 3rd Birthday, I'm not sure we should be all that surprised.
To be fair, i dont think lightning was written in this manner for that, but to portray her as lashing out in anger and despair without actually being a bad or intentionally malicious person.
Not played FFXV yet, but in regards to Cidney, there has always been characters who wear stupid clothes, especially female there is at least one character a game who seems to wear something over the top.
Yes no cleavage but everything else for at the time was quite sexualized
Tifa is a great character though, my favorite FF female of all time and one of my top game characters in general. Cindy is a non character and only exists for the camera to oogle her, and have pinup DLC on the car and such.
The difference is clear.
For clarification's sake, Nomura created the concept for the shredded clothes. Even though he was commissioned by the rest of the team to come up with a 'sexy' mechanic that avoided using what they saw as the extreme shower scenes of previous games, he was technically the one who came up with the mechanic, not tabata.
Supermanisdead
Member
"Cindy dresses like that cuz it's the desert and it's hot."
"But you don't want to be showing all that skin in the desert or as a mechanic"
"Well it's a fantasy game!"
"But you don't want to be showing all that skin in the desert or as a mechanic"
"Well it's a fantasy game!"