Not true. I'm not a huge fan of her either, but she's got agency and is shrewd, manipulative, and worked the system like a boss. She was SUPPOSED to be queen "in name only" and turned the tables on the manipulators until she got her way. She's downright Machiavellian... as much as a pacifist can be. By the end of the series, people across the globe loved her and respected her. She became a symbol to the planet that far eclipsed the power of the other leaders.
>< People hate on Relena because they don't understand her struggle or journey in the series. She has more political savvy and mental strength in a single scene than Luna does in the entire game.
Her queen status was specifically because she would be too much of a threat to the world government on her own, which shows how much political and charismatic sway she had over the people that they wanted to control.
THAT is how you do a mentally strong charismatic female character who is separate from the main boy gang.
She is acknowledged multiple times as being even more pertinent to events surrounding the story than the Gundams themselves in many areas.
Relena suffers from the same problem that essentially most of the 'political princess' characters suffer, which is that the politics of the world arbitrarily bend towards her favor not through her own shrewdness (Relena had none) or manipulation (she didn't really do much manipulation of politics), but through the will of the writers. Relena did not become a queen because she was a threat on her own, she was made a puppet queen. A dinky little speech isn't going to sway a bunch of hardened old men towards pacifism. It's unrealistic. Relena did a lot of posturing but had no real power that wasn't given to her by the grace of her being the 'heroine' of the series.
That's the same kind of problem that hurts Luna. The contradiction of writing 'important princess characters' is that real politics never favor young, pretty, idealistic girls, yet in these fantasy worlds the politics and settings are warped to favor them. The story will present good and evil in very black and white terms so you don't get much in the way of choice over who to root for.
Luna fares worse than Relena because her motivations are based around the "Chosen One" main male character, without him ever having actually earned that affection, devotion, and love. So Relena has a step up over Luna on that.
This is the main reason I'm choosing not to be there on day 1 or probably ever. Just hope SEs treatment of female characters is much better in future games.
This all male homogonous boy band, no girls all allowed club should be put in the dumpster fire it deserves to be in.
While I agree that Cindy is a miserable female character design and the guys occasionally say weird-ass shit about women (even if Prompto sounds more and more like he's genuinely interested in both Aranea and Cindy--he'd be down to take them on a date, but never really pushes himself on them), I do think that they presented an all-male cast decently.
It's a story about how brotherly love is important. It's good, valid, and important for guys to have guy friends that they're fine being vulnerable around. They have no problems letting their guards down around each other. They need their brothers or else they're weaker and worse people. That's an important narrative I think. How many games are about the importance of having a friendship that's close, strong, and arguably more important than a romantic one--especially between guys? The stories that center on dudes tend to be one of two things:
1) The man that's Made Better because of his romantic inclinations.
2) The man that's powerful and strong and doesn't need anyone else.
We don't see very many male characters that are genuinely vulnerable people--and don't need no woman, so to speak, to make them better and stronger people. Calling the narrative trash for not having female characters a part of the main party is a little disingenuous. You can dislike it--that's fair--but it's more nuanced than the dumpster fire.
Again, I do think that Cindy's design is gratuitous and gross, and even Aranea doesn't need her titty-window armor. Those aren't defensible, but the narrative is. Also Luna getting fridged fucking sucks.
FF has always had a good track record with its female characters. Hell, in the last two games, the protagonists were women (Ashe and Lightning). And now you've got this hot mess, with women being objectified and fridged left right and centre.
FF has always had a good track record with its female characters. Hell, in the last two games, the protagonists were women (Ashe and Lightning). And now you've got this hot mess, with women being objectified and fridged left right and centre.
Again that doesn't mean the next game won't have a great female protagonists. Yes it sucks that the female representation is poor in FFXV and it shouldn't be the case but I don't see how this is setting it back 20 years when chances are it will be totally different in FFXVI, I think it's an complete overreaction.
FF has always had a good track record with its female characters. Hell, in the last two games, the protagonists were women (Ashe and Lightning). And now you've got this hot mess, with women being objectified and fridged left right and centre.
Do we just care about the protagonist being female, or do we also want better design? Because both Lightning and Sera had fairly sexualised designs past XIII itself. Lightning was made bustier on purpose because Toriyama wanted her to have bigger tiddies.
Of course there are different perspectives. I am not saying yours is not valid but I don't see how it is taken back 20 years when the next game will be totally different.
FF has always had a good track record with its female characters. Hell, in the last two games, the protagonists were women (Ashe and Lightning). And now you've got this hot mess, with women being objectified and fridged left right and centre.
Cidney's outfit is trash but as a woman, Lightning's treatment in LR (bigger boobs and the outfits) were a lot worse to me. Plus having more women = doesn't equal better treatment or that those characters are good in my opinion. The women throughout XIII are just a different type of bad than the ones in XV. Honestly Serah is almost as bad as Luna in some ways since she instantly accepts her 'fate' without question in XIII-2 which didn't make any sense.
Of course there are different perspectives. I am not saying yours is not valid but I don't see how it is taken back 20 years when the next game will be totally different.
That means you didn't expect 'anyone' to have a perspective different from yours.
Mine is different, because I understand the female characters of FF15 in the context of the current state of the Japanese games industry. There are plenty of 'totally different' JRPGs on the market now, but they always have the "Titty Monster", the "Angelic Girl Next Door Love Interest", the "Little Sister", the "Sexy Female Villain". They always have some female character stereotypes based on their level of appeal to male players. The fact that no one on the development team of 15 stood up and said, "These are not good ideas" speaks volumes about the people who are working at SE Japan. These people will continue working on subsequent FF, and they have allowed this to become the new norm.
Motomu Toriyama made a quest to get a little girl's panties for FF7, and ultimately it was rejected. Years later, in a more favorable environment and company position, he directed Lightning Returns, a game where you dress up a former soldier and supposed world savior in bikinis and other fanservice shit for battle.
Tabata made a peeping tom quest in Type-0. Here, with a bigger budget and better graphics, he wasted no time in getting Cindy and Shiva implemented.
No one is stopping them. The trend has been going towards this sort of garbage for female characters. Saying "the next game will be totally different" is ignoring the existing trend of the necessity of JP devs needing to pander to a questionable audience, the personnel who enter the industry favoring this sort of nonsense, and nobody drawing a line because they want the money from the questionable audience. It becomes cyclical: the products appeal to a less broad audience, the players that actually like these lopsided portrayals gun to get into the industry while others abandon it, then they join the industry and produce products that pander to their own tastes, and so on.
It's sliding backwards. And the attitude of "the next game will be different" is a complacency.
That means you didn't expect 'anyone' to have a perspective different from yours.
Mine is different, because I understand the female characters of FF15 in the context of the current state of the Japanese games industry. There are plenty of 'totally different' JRPGs on the market now, but they always have the "Titty Monster", the "Angelic Girl Next Door Love Interest", the "Little Sister", the "Sexy Female Villain". They always have some female character stereotypes based on their level of appeal to male players. The fact that no one on the development team of 15 stood up and said, "These are not good ideas" speaks volumes about the people who are working at SE Japan. These people will continue working on subsequent FF, and they have allowed this to become the new norm.
Motomu Toriyama made a quest to get a little girl's panties for FF7, and ultimately it was rejected. Years later, in a more favorable environment and company position, he directed Lightning Returns, a game where you dress up a former soldier and supposed world savior in bikinis and other fanservice shit for battle.
Tabata made a peeping tom quest in Type-0. Here, with a bigger budget and better graphics, he wasted no time in getting Cindy and Shiva implemented.
No one is stopping them. The trend has been going towards this sort of garbage for female characters. Saying "the next game will be totally different" is ignoring the existing trend of the necessity of JP devs needing to pander to a questionable audience, the personnel who enter the industry favoring this sort of nonsense, and nobody drawing a line because they want the money from the questionable audience. It becomes cyclical: the products appeal to a less broad audience, the players that actually like these lopsided portrayals gun to get into the industry while others abandon it, then they join the industry and produce products that pander to their own tastes, and so on.
It's sliding backwards. And the attitude of "the next game will be different" is a complacency.
I have a question: Do you all think we will ever see any big female names over at SE Japan eventually? It's been bothering me that a lot of the well known people are all men and I would like to see more women directors, writers, etc. but I don't feel that will happen anytime soon sadly.
I have a question: Do you all think we will ever see any big female names over at SE Japan eventually? It's been bothering me that a lot of the well known people are all men and I would like to see more women directors, writers, etc. but I don't feel that will happen anytime soon sadly.
As a straight white guy I'll note that I intend to play the hell out of FFXV and enjoy it, since I have certainly enjoyed it so far (only on Ch. 3 so far), but the fact that the female characters are either window dressing or pawns is abundantly clear to me and frankly disappointing. It feels like a polar opposite of FFXIII in every way, and I loved XIII.
I look at a company like Bioware. I know they're Canadian and not Japanese, but I think they described some scenarios that would greatly benefit Square Enix going forward.
Bioware is actually very open about their feelings of screwing up when writing minorities and women. They admit outright they didn't do the best job writing gay individuals in Mass Effect 3, thus they asked a gay staff writer to handle Dorian in Dragon Age: Inquisition and the difference is night and day. "We write what we know".
Another instance was they were coming up with a romance and all the men thought it was good... until a female staff member raised her hand and offered objections. After she did so, other female staff members chimed in agreeing with her and voicing their concerns. The writer admits that, from his male perspective, he fell back on a trope and didn't consider the repercussions. It wasn't malicious or with harmful intent, but he admitted he was wrong and their scenario could have very negative interpretations, so they scrapped it and got the women staffers directly involved from that point forward.
Square Enix, from my understanding, has precious few women in leadership positions, but they don't even need to be leaders. They can just be normal staff, but should be allowed to voice their opinions on how the women are handled. I don't think they're asked, and we have folks like Toriyama and Tabata who, at this point, have a definable trend of writing or directing games with very, VERY problematic views of women (I still am just bowled over by how awful The 3rd Birthday treats its heroine...). Women in their games have become more and more as sexually desirable pop-idols - being flawless, pure, virginal-yet-sexual poster girls to model off skimpy clothing and outright fetish gear. And Square in particular calls them "strong" women just because they have superpowers and magic... as if power and strength alone makes these women great characters (it doesn't) or negates their portrayals as submissive or exploited fanservice (also doesn't).
It's not like Square Enix hasn't done GREAT women in prior games before - Rydia, Terra, Celes, Aeris, Quistis, Freya, Garnet, Yuna, Ashe... Heck, Final Fantasy XIV's huge roster of characters is almost 50% amazing, competent, powerful, strong-willed women in leadership positions. They have very clear blueprints to give us great women in games and have even done so in the past.
And THAT is why I, too, have been rather shocked at how... juvenile... their portrayals of women have been over the past decade, it seems, by and large. Again, a lot of the same people in leadership positions had their hands in all of these questionable portrayals and they just kept getting passes, but it's becoming concerning.
It's okay to like FFXV and bristle at how Cindy dresses or how Luna is portrayed. I like the game in spite of how they mistreat their women. But we need to be clear - RIGHT NOW - about the things we loved about the game and the things we find rather unacceptable.
Give us women like the old Aya Brea - a kickass New York cop fighting against waves of horrific monstrosities while dealing with her own personal issues. Give us a character like Ashe - a fallen queen who'll fight like a devil to reclaim her throne and bring justice to her people. Give us a character like Rydia - a girl who lost her mother and had to forgive the men who killed her while growing in strength and power to become a force capable of shaping the world and uniting mankind with Eidolons. Games like Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, Valkyrie Profile, Dragon Quest, and so many others gave us so many great female characters to draw inspiration from.
But in Square's more high-profile releases lately, I've been quite alarmed. They aren't just bad portrayals; they are actively regressive.
I'm not going to be silent about it. I'm not okay with Lightning breast implants and boob jiggles. I'm not okay with the peeping tom stuff from Type-0 that made my skin crawl. I'm not okay with Cindy's outfit. I'm not okay with Lunafreya's horrendous and inept role. I'm not even okay with the less-developed and less-believable writing of Terra in Dissidia or how they've handled Aeris in any material post-FF7 (man, I miss the crazier "threaten Don Corneo's genitals" version over the "tragic martyred angel" interpretation). I'm not okay with a single damn thing anyone involved with The 3rd Birthday did to Aya Brea.
So stop acting like adolescent, hormonal fratboys whose exposure to women is the naughty fan comics and ecchi anime shows you binge watch, Square. Take the two minutes out of your day to go to a woman - you don't have to go far - and ask her "hey, is this metal thong stripper outfit I stuck Lightning in appropriate?".
It's grown beyond tiresome, and I complain as loudly as I do because I legitimately want you to get better, I want my wife to stop rolling her eyes at your decisions with your women, and I want my young nieces to grow up with a healthy collection of positive female role models in their games as well.
I agree with most of the complaints here, but I have to admit that I'm a bit confused when I look at the avatars of so many people who are complaining about females being objectified in video games. I guess (seriously, not being sarcastic) that it's acceptable to have avatars that are basically pin-up girls if those female characters are treated/evolved properly in the games/films/etc in which they appear? I'm honestly just interested in understanding the difference between "it's bad for females to be sex objects" and "it's okay for females to be sex objects if that's just one facet of their otherwise well-developed (sorry, no pun intended) character." Is that the basic idea here, and the basis for the complaints about Luna?
Edit: Okay, I re-read the article/discussion and I think I understand the argument now
You hit the nail on the head. While I am bothered with XV's treatment of women, it's treatment of women is not an isolated case. This has been a growing problem with FF and SE games in general like you've stated. It's been what - 15 years? - and Kairi in KH has barely had any development (and that's me being generous). In Dissidia, they added panty shots and even gave Tifa weird boob psychics. Then there is the beta version of Cidney in XIII-2:
And while I love Ashe, I feel that she was shafted in XII. She should have been the main character since it was her story yet they gave the role to a boy because reasons??? I'm just...tired of SE.
No one is stopping them. The trend has been going towards this sort of garbage for female characters. Saying "the next game will be totally different" is ignoring the existing trend of the necessity of JP devs needing to pander to a questionable audience, the personnel who enter the industry favoring this sort of nonsense, and nobody drawing a line because they want the money from the questionable audience. It becomes cyclical: the products appeal to a less broad audience, the players that actually like these lopsided portrayals gun to get into the industry while others abandon it, then they join the industry and produce products that pander to their own tastes, and so on.
It's sliding backwards. And the attitude of "the next game will be different" is a complacency.
That's fair, I didn't mean it like that and I should have reworded it, my apologies but again history is in Final fantasy favor and I think that's part of what we should look at.
This discussion should take place but needless overreactions do not help anyone's points especially when you say the last 20 years don't matter because of this game now.
You hit the nail on the head. While I am bothered with XV's treatment of women, it's treatment of women is not an isolated case. This has been a growing problem with FF and SE games in general like you've stated. It's been what - 15 years? - and Kairi in KH has barely had any development (and that's me being generous). In Dissidia, they added panty shots and even gave Tifa weird boob psychics. Then there is the beta version of Cidney in XIII-2:
And while I love Ashe, I feel that she was shafted in XII. She should have been the main character since it was her story yet they gave the role to a boy because reasons??? I'm just...tired of SE.
On the point, the story is still largely about her. The majority of the journey is spent rebuilding her kingdom, and her character growth. I mean,
she almost falls into what Humes aspire to do - start wars for the prospect of their kingdoms surviving or returning. She goes from a princess, to a straight up boss ass warrior, to a dark person willing to use the same power as her enemies and do whatever it takes to get her kingdom back, to realizing that not only is bloodline not that important compared to the person you are, but overt conquest isn't the answer. I think she goes through the most character progression throughout that entire game.
Vaan and Pen represent normality that each of the cast members needed to see. It grounds them from going too far astray. With Ashe,
if it wasn't for her seeing Vaan reject the illusion of his brother, she might have just said "fuck it" and caught the power. Hell, she's still not fully convinced at the end of the game if this is the right decision, though who could blame her considering she lost her damn kingdom and husband and father.
I'm sure some people were disappointed with the fact that she wasn't front and center at all times, or other cast members, but Vaan was basically Raiden for the players.
And I'm sure some could level complaints that she shouldn't need no man to correct herself, but it felt organic, much like when other male FF characters help each other out. Had XII been given more time to flesh out the story, more of this would have been obvious, but the general idea is there. That's why I have faith that SE could produce some decent results if they tried without falling to the constant boob window-y tropes. The women in FFXV are actually pretty well done in their brief appearances - even Cindy gets some good character development. Now, if they could get over making them walking sex appeal victims, we'd have a better showcasing.
On the point, the story is still largely about her. The majority of the journey is spent rebuilding her kingdom, and her character growth. I mean,
she almost falls into what Humes aspire to do - start wars for the prospect of their kingdoms surviving or returning. She goes from a princess, to a straight up boss ass warrior, to a dark person willing to use the same power as her enemies and do whatever it takes to get her kingdom back, to realizing that not only is bloodline not that important compared to the person you are, but overt conquest isn't the answer. I think she goes through the most character progression throughout that entire game.
Vaan and Pen represent normality that each of the cast members needed to see. It grounds them from going too far astray. With Ashe,
if it wasn't for her seeing Vaan reject the illusion of his brother, she might have just said "fuck it" and caught the power. Hell, she's still not fully convinced at the end of the game if this is the right decision, though who could blame her considering she lost her damn kingdom and husband and father.
I'm sure some people were disappointed with the fact that she wasn't front and center at all times, or other cast members, but Vaan was basically Raiden for the players.
And I'm sure some could level complaints that she shouldn't need no man to correct herself, but it felt organic, much like when other male FF characters help each other out. Had XII been given more time to flesh out the story, more of this would have been obvious, but the general idea is there. That's why I have faith that SE could produce some decent results if they tried without falling to the constant boob window-y tropes. The women in FFXV are actually pretty well done in their brief appearances - even Cindy gets some good character development. Now, if they could get over making them walking sex appeal victims, we'd have a better showcasing.
I feel like unfortunately, the discussion is sliding away from FF15's specific treatment of women and into a false dichotomy about previous installments in the series, or Japanese media in general.
FF15's treatment of females is a lot different from any issues the series has had before in regards to female empowerment or representation, in that there is almost none to speak of in the final game worth anything in addition to pushing a male dominated cast.
I agree with most of the complaints here, but I have to admit that I'm a bit confused when I look at the avatars of so many people who are complaining about females being objectified in video games. I guess (seriously, not being sarcastic) that it's acceptable to have avatars that are basically pin-up girls if those female characters are treated/evolved properly in the games/films/etc in which they appear? I'm honestly just interested in understanding the difference between "it's bad for females to be sex objects" and "it's okay for females to be sex objects if that's just one facet of their otherwise well-developed (sorry, no pun intended) character." Is that the basic idea here, and the basis for the complaints about Luna?
Edit: Okay, I re-read the article/discussion and I think I understand the argument now
I feel like unfortunately, the discussion is sliding away from FF15's specific treatment of women and into a false dichotomy about previous installments in the series, or Japanese media in general.l
I don't see how you could not talk about the other games when talking about XV. The main complaint about there not being female party members is because all the other games had them. Plus people have been unhappy with the treatment of women in the other games too. People are just becoming more vocal about it and XV's is finally the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of women.
This thread itself has shown there's this weird mentality that a lot of the gross/sexist things in the series is 'okay' if the character is written well which is nonsense. Tifa Lockhart is my favorite character of all time but her outfit is stupid and impractical for her fighting style. I'm not going to ignore that just because she's written better than Cidney. Both of their outfits are stupid.
Okay, i'm seeing shiva brought up again, are we just forgetting how she's looked in the past games or just focusing on the fact that since technology is better that the now is the only concern? Shiva's always had the sexed up looks, (if you take the old games and put them in the engine we have now, they'd all have the sexy look to them, albiet not as bad as FF13 ... aka snow riding 2 girls ...... god theres a realization when you type that on how bad ff13 was)
Bahamut is not always a literal dragon nor is Ifrit always the same, sometimes he looks like a literal demon or close to a man. There's nothing written in stone that says Shiva has to be almost naked.
Okay, i'm seeing shiva brought up again, are we just forgetting how she's looked in the past games or just focusing on the fact that since technology is better that the now is the only concern? Shiva's always had the sexed up looks, (if you take the old games and put them in the engine we have now, they'd all have the sexy look to them, albiet not as bad as FF13 ... aka snow riding 2 girls ...... god theres a realization when you type that on how bad ff13 was)
That isnt saying they are not problematic, just saying it hasn't changed in the history of the character. FF has always had this shit (except with characters with more characterization than a pinup)
Bahamut is not always a literal dragon nor is Ifrit always the same, sometimes he looks like a literal demon or close to a man. There's nothing written in stone that says Shiva has to be almost naked.
Okay, i'm seeing shiva brought up again, are we just forgetting how she's looked in the past games or just focusing on the fact that since technology is better that the now is the only concern? Shiva's always had the sexed up looks, (if you take the old games and put them in the engine we have now, they'd all have the sexy look to them, albiet not as bad as FF13 ... aka snow riding 2 girls ...... god theres a realization when you type that on how bad ff13 was)
That isnt saying they are not problematic, just saying it hasn't changed in the history of the character. FF has always had this shit (except with characters with more characterization than a pinup)
The first female you really interact with is Cindy, and the first scene you get of her is a pan of her goddamn ass.
Pretty much all you need to know about how it treats the women in this game. I have long defended the idea of a bro-road trip game, and given how enjoyable the character moments are, I stand by that. But that did not need to happen at the expense of any character development for female characters.
When she leans over to wash your windshield after filling up the gas on your car. Unbelievably cringe worthy. Was really embarrassed to play with my wife in the same room and would have been equally embarrassed playing by myself.
Okay, i'm seeing shiva brought up again, are we just forgetting how she's looked in the past games or just focusing on the fact that since technology is better that the now is the only concern? Shiva's always had the sexed up looks, (if you take the old games and put them in the engine we have now, they'd all have the sexy look to them, albiet not as bad as FF13 ... aka snow riding 2 girls ...... god theres a realization when you type that on how bad ff13 was)
That isnt saying they are not problematic, just saying it hasn't changed in the history of the character. FF has always had this shit (except with characters with more characterization than a pinup)
Uh ... have you played the previous games, the camera angels have been bad (except when restrictions in games ala nes/snes didnt allow for 3d movement. Hell the games always make her twirl around, and camera pans near her ass and in the chest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xetLgDkD1t8 this only goes up to ff13 (doesnt show ff11/14/Dissidia arcade or ff XV)
The first female you really interact with is Cindy, and the first scene you get of her is a pan of her goddamn ass.
Pretty much all you need to know about how it treats the women in this game. I have long defended the idea of a bro-road trip game, and given how enjoyable the character moments are, I stand by that. But that did not need to happen at the expense of any character development for female characters.
Oh my good Lord, that little scene had me rolling my eyes so hard. Talk about complete fan-service.
The problem with Shiva is not necessarily her clothing. She's been scantily clad in past games and it didn't really bother me. We went from this:
To that gross, sensual, harem thing we got in FFXV.
You're missing the angle during Diamond dust where we get kiss of death trope, twirl the character around, pan the camera from her ass then move it up to her face then we get jojo pose and the attack. Or are we using FFX's short summon mode (where i think the attacks can be skipped? or am i getting that mixed up with actually summoning them and the summon sequence was shortened) Not saying FFXV's thing isnt gross (it is) but Shiva has always had sexual camera angels since we went 3D.
To be fair, in KH, while Kairi has been shafted, there is Aqua, Xion and Namine who have proven to be strong(aqua) resolute(xion) and central to many threads(Namine)
And in KH3 atleast, it seems like Kairi will finally be elevated to the status she should have been in in the first place, so there's that
I honestly don't really think the other three are that good either. Yes, they're important but they're just so...bland? Especially Aqua, which I know is a big unpopular opinion.
To be fair, in KH, while Kairi has been shafted, there is Aqua, Xion and Namine who have proven to be strong(aqua) resolute(xion) and central to many threads(Namine)
And in KH3 atleast, it seems like Kairi will finally be elevated to the status she should have been in in the first place, so there's that
Uh ... have you played the previous games, the camera angels have been bad (except when restrictions in games ala nes/snes didnt allow for 3d movement. Hell the games always make her twirl around, and camera pans near her ass and in the chest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xetLgDkD1t8 this only goes up to ff13 (doesnt show ff11/14/Dissidia arcade or ff XV)
For the sake of argument, let's assume that Shiva's appearance in XV is as bad as every past 3D appearance of her. Why do I need to be satisfied with a status quo?
The problem though, is that it's not the same to me and I think the grossness is magnified with the harem look of that summon
Oh wait (i think my message got lost) you dont need to be statisfied, Hell I want it to change... I just dont like people thinking this FF was the one to change it, the introduction to 3d just made it more apparent that sexualization has been in the series for the long haul. its nothing new, but it should change and making people know their beloved series has always gotten away with this.
I honestly don't really think the other three are that good either. Yes, they're important but they're just so...bland? Especially Aqua, which I know is a big unpopular opinion.
Oh wait (i think my message got lost) you dont need to be statisfied, Hell I want it to change... I just dont like people thinking this FF was the one to change it, the introduction to 3d just made it more apparent that sexualization has been in the series for the long haul. its nothing new, but it should change and making people know their beloved series has always gotten away with this.
I've argued it may have been there initially (Nintendo forced them to censor certain sprites way back when for instance), but at this point it's gotten worse and is actively regressing instead of getting better.
The women of past games may have worn some silly outfits (Rydia isn't exactly a nun), but they were offset by great writing, great character arcs, and emotional depth that current Square Enix women are notably lacking. Even then, I'd argue we're now at a point where a character like Rydia or Tifa would look downright CONSERVATIVE next to some of the more egregious and recent examples Square Enix has put forth.
We shouldn't be happy with the status quo. We should be asking them to improve. But my observation is they're doing the opposite, and things are sliding backwards. The women are not just getting more sexualized, but now the writing of them isn't strong enough to offset that fanservice and they come across as a one-two punch of being both bland characters AND walking sex objects.
I don't like most KH characters anymore. I thought Terra was so terrible that I stopped playing BBS and haven't gone back so it's not just an issue with female characters. It's probably just a personal problem and I might have just outgrown the series.
Idk, I enjoyed the game but the female character issue was just this constant undercurrent of =/////// the whole way through. If you can get it cheapish though I'd definitely recommend it, it's crazy fun
I've argued it may have been there initially (Nintendo forced them to censor certain sprites way back when for instance), but at this point it's gotten worse and is actively regressing instead of getting better.
The women of past games may have worn some silly outfits (Rydia isn't exactly a nun), but they were offset by great writing, great character arcs, and emotional depth that current Square Enix women are notably lacking. Even then, I'd argue we're now at a point where a character like Rydia or Tifa would look downright CONSERVATIVE next to some of the more egregious and recent examples Square Enix has put forth.
We shouldn't be happy with the status quo. We should be asking them to improve. But my observation is they're doing the opposite, and things are sliding backwards. The women are not just getting more sexualized, but now the writing of them isn't strong enough to offset that fanservice and they come across as a one-two punch of being both bland characters AND walking sex objects.
Well considering this is how rydia would look in 3d... and compared to cidney i might have to agree. Bet people would cringe over their old classics if they were made into realistic 3D.
It exists somewhere, in Nomura's basement that he goes home and cries every night about it, lol.
But more seriously, i think some people may have been more receptive to the concept of Versus because of Stella's supposed balance in the narrative. She was pushed as being Noctis's equal in the story and generally pushed as the primary rival slash sub antagonist for him, with the bros playing back up duty, which sort of rebalanced the testosterone infused male cast members primarily in your party.
The bro journey was always there, but it became far more prominent in 2014 or so, and with it, the character in Luna who absolute did not have a concept even remotely as engaging in the narrative, which set off a lot of people's alarm bells(my own included) as soon as she was introduced. And the execution in the game was worse than anyone could have generally imagined.
When she leans over to wash your windshield after filling up the gas on your car. Unbelievably cringe worthy. Was really embarrassed to play with my wife in the same room and would have been equally embarrassed playing by myself.
on topic: Haven't finished the game so I can't give an opinion on Luna, but disappointing if she's relegated to the princess in distress role.
I had just got done telling my GF after she asked me earlier why the girls look like that in this game when she first saw Cindy, that oh I'm sure its just her outfit, they wont make her do anything sexual lol. Then the scene when getting gas when she basically sexually rolls all over the car....seriously, I can't stand it.
Well considering this is how rydia would look in 3d... and compared to cidney i might have to agree. Bet people would cringe over their old classics if they were made into realistic 3D.
True, and I took that design into consideration.
I'd say her initial Amano design though - and even translated to 3D - is less "sexy" and more just lush and fantastical.
We often forget the camera is a character too, and the lens of that camera can be how we interpret a character. How Rydia was presented was, well, I want to say elegantly and beautifully. Despite her outfit, it still flows and has volume and shape to it that looks ethereal and otherworldly. Her chest is not the focus - my eyes gravitate towards her eyes, her unnatural green hair, and her body contours in both Amano's art, the sprites, and even the CG has a flow to it that directs your eyes across the rims of her hair and garments AWAY from her body, not towards it. She's, I think, a great example of walking the line, being sexy without being overtly sexualized.
And then when we have her story arc in the game, and folks remember her far more for her actions and her role in the adventure than of her choice of attire.
Yes, which is why I was attempting to determine how that played into the discussion. After re-reading the source material and the thread discussion I have a better understanding of how it reconciles now.
True, and I took that design into consideration.
I'd say her initial Amano design though - and even translated to 3D - is less "sexy" and more just lush and fantastical.
We often forget the camera is a character too, and the lens of that camera can be how we interpret a character. How Rydia was presented was, well, I want to say elegantly and beautifully. Despite her outfit, it still flows and has volume and shape to it that looks ethereal and otherworldly. Her chest is not the focus - my eyes gravitate towards her eyes, her unnatural green hair, and her body contours in both Amano's art, the sprites, and even the CG has a flow to it that directs your eyes across the rims of her hair and garments AWAY from her body, not towards it. She's, I think, a great example of walking the line, being sexy without being overtly sexualized.
And then when we have her story arc in the game, and folks remember her far more for her actions and her role in the adventure than of her choice of attire.
Like in that GIF of Rydia, there's really more of a classic beauty and subtle "sex" to what makes her look attractive there. Which is so very different from this:
Which I think also gets into the whole "reality" issue with FFXV. If you're going to make a "fantasy" game, there's a certain amount of flexibility you can work with to make character clothing and design without it standing out. Cindy is a plain mechanic working on what seem like plain cars, working in what look like incredibly stupid clothing.
Oh I know it had some sexy camera angles. I was making the claim that I think the camera angles are worse here, and that adding the "harem" of Shiva makes it exponentially worse.
Uh ... have you played the previous games, the camera angels have been bad (except when restrictions in games ala nes/snes didnt allow for 3d movement. Hell the games always make her twirl around, and camera pans near her ass and in the chest.
Thanks for sharing, OP, I look forward to more of Part 2! There's some really great and thoughtful comments in the thread, too.
I'm still a bit flabbergasted by usage of female characters in XV, I don't think it's been so eeeeeeh since IV? IV still kinda was a bit better in quite a few ways, honestly. I still haven't finished FFII, but I think it might have done a better job with its female characters, as at least Maria and maybe Hilda had pretty prominent roles. Leila was kind of the fun fan-service Aranea equivalent. XV kinda drops the ball all-round:
1. Luna is a plot device for Noctis (so are the bros honestly, they just get constant screen time),
and gets fridged on top of it.
2. Iris is likeable, but lot of Iris' character/screen time is centred on her being smitten with Noctis.
When she gets a bit more of an interesting subplot later in the game by becoming a daemon hunter, we're told what she's up to, not shown. It's a problem with the majority of the supporting cast.
3. Gentiana had a lot of potential, but still is a bit of a underutilized plot device for Noctis (I'd hoped she'd also be a bit more of a plot device for Luna, as well, but Gentiana's character still really comes down to Noctis).
Shiva is same ol' Shiva, just with some more objectifying camera angles.
4. Cindy is charming, but pretty much just fan-service.
Like Iris, when she finally has more going on with her as a character outside of fan-service, it's just via dialogue in the time skip.
5. Aranea is rare character in general with the most autonomy away from Noctis' storyline, and she's really fun. I'm still bemused metal sports bras are apparently a thing. (Kari Wahlgren did a really awesome job with her, too.)
Even after Kingsglaive, I kept hoping they were going to do a better with Luna in XV than they did. I try to not be too hyperbolic about Luna, but really, the point of her character ultimately does come down to a walking plot device ring delivery service.
Regis complimenting her on delivering the ring to Noctis in the finale, as opposed to literally any other aspect of her character, said it all really.
I'm still a bit baffled with what they thought they were improving on from Stella. We kinda hit rock bottom with Luna, not sure how it could have gotten much lower. I think it's also been a long time in the franchise since the female lead's personal story revolved so much around the male lead. I'd say Tifa was the last one, but Tifa is very much a fully realized and refreshingly flawed character, who we spent a lot of time with. (I mean, climbing those stairs in Midgar with her and Barret is a definitive bonding moment, even if nothing came after.) Tifa's admittedly not my favorite female FF lead, but she's easily one of the best written characters in the franchise. Unlike Tifa, who has a hell of a lot going on with her outside of Cloud, the two more prominent aspects of Luna's character are Noctis and her role as the Oracle. Unfortunately, her role as the Oracle was pretty understated in comparison to even Yuna as a summoner. I can appreciate Luna's bravery and sacrifice, but still, her role in the game sadly comes down to Noctis.
All of this isn't to say that I don't like Luna, as I did. I'm still not sure if I like the idea of her more than I actually like her, because we spent such little time with her. Any cutscenes with her - outside of one - revolve around Noctis in some form. I also really liked Amy Shiels, though, I thought she did a great job with making Luna bit more nuanced with the minimal screen time Luna had.
XV does a pretty awful job with its use of its supporting cast in general, but for the male characters, you do at least have Noctis/Prompto/Gladio/Ignis/
Ardyn
with a lot of screen time balance it out. I also don't mind Noctis/Gladio/Prompto/Ignis being the permanent playable cast, it's just the game is also lacking in an interesting supporting female cast with a lot of relevance. It's a bit funny when people say, hey, we had a all-female playable cast in X-2, so XV makes it even! In comparison to XV being lean with the female supporting cast, X-2 had male characters with a lot of screen time in lead roles, both supporting and villainous. As much as I genuinely like X-2, it's not a bastion of entirely positive female representation, either. YRP designs were pretty sexualized (let alone some of the other dressphere designs), and there was definitely fan-service. At any rate, the positive to XV's N.G.P.I (NPIG? PIGN? IGNP? YRP is a bit catchier), is that it's nice to have positive, supportive male friendships in media, and Noctis and the bros absolutely have that.
Since the discussion came up, I will say for Lightning Returns, I've never been so disgusted to see a no-bullshit female character turn into a semi-blank OOC dress-up doll. X-2 did at least a passable job of keeping each character's dressphere kind of in character (kind of). The outfits in LR were atrocious, and I couldn't believe Lightning would choose to wear 90% of them. It was so creepy.
To be absolutely fair, i don't think the issue is the devs not necessarily knowing how to write females, but Tabata's vision of the game not really having a high priority for them over pushing other aspects of the game, and the dev team making blatant excuses for not addressing that, some of which are sexist remarks in nature.
Anyway, OP (or for anyone else a bit depressed!), if you want some female positivity from Square, I can't recommend World of Final Fantasy enough. It was just such a pleasant surprise all round. It's been awhile since I've seen so many female characters having plot relevance in a FF (let alone a spin-off, looking at you, Dissidia), and they are all really well represented. It's also been a while since I've seen so many female characters allowed to be funny, or female characters being funny with each other. It's even more surreal seeing so many female characters interact with each other, and it's a real joy to see friendships between these characters across franchises. Even the female summons are amazing, Shiva is surprisingly hilarious at times. Basically, WoFF was this bizarre little wonderful gift I didn't know I needed in my life.
I want to say that i agree with everything you said, but i especially appreciate your appraisal of Tifa's character. I think a lot of the time Tifa is misunderstood as an individual(many times just because of how she dressed in the original game, or because of ship wars), so i'm glad you gave her a fair viewpoint.
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