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[BatDan]

I'm still really curious as to what makes Shanks so strong

Likely years and years of training his Haki. His Conqueror's Haki is capable of knocking out men in Whitebeard's crew.
When he had both arms, he was capable of holding his own against Mihawk.
His presence at the Marineford War completely stopped it. Likely because the Marines knew it would be a slaughter if they joined in.

 

[Welfare]

I'm still really curious as to what makes Shanks so strong

He's probably really gifted in Haki and sword fighting.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I'm still really curious as to what makes Shanks so strong

I hope he's all about haki. Would be interesting if his power was that he was the best in the world with his abilities on haki. Ben Beckman seems to be skilled with haki as well.

 

[360pages]

I think Shanks shows a nice example that you really don't need Devil fruit powers to be top tier in the universe. In a genre where most people or destined to be second place no matter what simply because they weren't born with X.

 

[SIRF]

Likely years and years of training his Haki. His Conqueror's Haki is capable of knocking out men in Whitebeard's crew.
When he had both arms, he was capable of holding his own against Mihawk.
His presence at the Marineford War completely stopped it. Likely because the Marines knew it would be a slaughter if they joined in.

Even without his arm he can take on Mihawk, I believe Oda mentioned that losing his arm did not reduce Shank's power (obviously considering he was sparring with whitebeard).

Also, I think we can guess based on Rayleigh and Garp how someone without any fruit can be top tier. It's skill plus Haki that does it for them.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I think Shanks shows a nice example that you really don't need Devil fruit powers to be top tier in the universe. In a genre where most people or destined to be second place no matter what simply because they weren't born with X.

Shanks, Zoro, Garp, Mihawk, Rayleigh, Z etc. etc., there are plenty of extremely powerful people who don't have devil fruits.

 

[Veelk]

Shanks, Zoro, Garp, Mihawk, Rayleigh, Z etc. etc., there are plenty of extremely powerful people who don't have devil fruits.

Yeah, the real thing you can't be, if you want to be powerful, is a woman.

Spoiler

Kidding!

Spoiler

But not really, Oda needs to show more powerful female figures, and show them in actual action instead of being kept in the background.

Spoiler

Also, like half of those have Conquerors Haki that is implied to be necessary to be a world contender for strength.

 

[B-Dubs]

Yeah, the real thing you can't be if you want to be powerful is a woman.

Spoiler

Kidding!

Spoiler

But not really, Oda needs to show more powerful female figures, and show them in actual action instead of being kept in the background.

Big Mom.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Spoiler

Also, like half of those have Conquerors Haki that is implied to be necessary to be a world contender for strength.

Only Shanks and Rayleigh, no?

Big Mom.

It's true that there are powerful female characters, but his point was probably more like how few they are, which is true in comparison to the men. It's not like this is unusual compared to other books or films or whatever though.

 

[Veelk]

Big Mom.

I don't deny they exist, but the every group has like one or two. It's essentially tokenism. And 95% of the time they are rarely shown to be in the same kind of fights as the men in the story. There is no reason for both robin and nami to have gone on for so long without opponents, and take a head count of literally any crew or organization, women will make up maybe 10% at most, excepting the amazon lillies whose gimmick is that it's all women.

I don't think you can deny that the manga has some sexist notions when the major plot point of Zoro's backstory is "My best friend has a vagina, so she's doomed to fail."

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I don't think you can deny that the manga has some sexist notions when the major plot point of Zoro's backstory is "My best friend has a vagina, so she's doomed to fail."

Just like real life all the way up to this century, and even still this lives on in many places. One Piece has been known for its dreams though and breaking these norms, so sure enough Oda could have written that differently.

 

[Imperial Bishop]

Wasn't the whole point of Zoro's backstory about him and Kuina competing to become the best sworsman, regardless of gender?

If your familiar with any history of swordsmen, especially samurai, then there indeed was a real female bias during that time.

But Zoro didn't care about that and still viewed Kuina as a strong opponent. Which is why they both vowed to get stronger.

 

[B-Dubs]

Wasn't the whole point of Zoro's backstory about him and Kuina competing to become the best sworsman, regardless of gender?

If your familiar with any history of swordsmen, especially samurai, then there indeed was a real female bias during that time.

But Zoro didn't care about that and still viewed Kuina as a strong opponent. Which is why they both vowed to get stronger.

All of this.

 

[pelicansurf]

Likely years and years of training his Haki. His Conqueror's Haki is capable of knocking out men in Whitebeard's crew.
When he had both arms, he was capable of holding his own against Mihawk.
His presence at the Marineford War completely stopped it. Likely because the Marines knew it would be a slaughter if they joined in.

I'd like to see a bigger combat application of conqueror's haki a la CoA, CoP. I know it's a mark to conquer weaklings and on, but do something cool with it. Even if it's "always on" like Shanks, which I find really cool.

 

[Veelk]

The issue I take with this is that in a world as absurdly fantastical as OP's, where even basic anatomy is not standard among beings that should be the same species, you cannot expect me to buy that women are meant to be inferior because of genetics. Muscle size matters nothing in OP's world, because scrawny Luffy was regularly taking on opponents many times his size in muscle mass even before Haki.

My issue is that there just flat out shouldn't be genuine gender differences in a story that ignores real world physics to this degree. Maybe societal prejudice, but by having essentially 95% of all warriors be men and factually establishing that Kuina is destined to be physically weaker because of her gender, it validates those gender differences, regardless of how Zoro sees things. This is even moreso when female fights are treated so obnoxiously different than male fights. In nearly 800 chapters, every time there is a male vs female fight, it's somehow never about the actual physical fight. Zoro beat Monet without actually hurting her because she was too scared of him to fight. The Gladiator girl beat all her opponents by having them fall out. There is never an out and out Male vs Female fight where they respect each other as true warriors and have a full on battle like most male fights are.

It's portrayed kind of like real life, where a female can potentially be strong, but she is never going to rival men and is an extreme minority. But OP is just not a manga that should be going for that kind of real life portrayal. It should be depicting women as equally capable of the fun, wacky, crazy badassery as men are, and having some token "She's a fighter that we'll never see out and out fight like normal fighters" is a constant and depressing contradiction to the escapism that OP should be. For some reason, when you have a vagina, that is the one time real world physics and historical prejudice in a world as seperated from any form of reality as OP can simply not be ignored? It's bullshit.

OP does have a female consideration going on that seperates it from Manga's line Naruto where women are depicted through a sexist lense the author seems to lack, but I'm not sure what you guys are arguing here. That because you have some token females and a guy saying "You're just as good as men" (who himself admitted to not being comfortable fighting female opponents), that makes the absurdly constant discrepancies between male and female representation in OP disappear? No.

 

[pelicansurf]

The issue I take with this is that in a world as absurdly fantastical as OP's, where even basic anatomy is not standard among beings that should be the same species, you cannot expect me to buy that women are meant to be inferior because of genetics. Muscle size matters nothing in OP's world, because scrawny Luffy was regularly taking on opponents many times his size in muscle mass even before Haki.

My issue is that there just flat out shouldn't be genuine gender differences in a story that ignores real world physics to this degree. Maybe societal prejudice, but by having essentially 95% of all warriors be men and factually establishing that Kuina is destined to be physically weaker because of her gender, it validates those gender differences, regardless of how Zoro sees things. This is even moreso when female fights are treated so obnoxiously different than male fights. In nearly 800 chapters, every time there is a male vs female fight, it's somehow never about the actual physical fight. Zoro beat Monet without actually hurting her because she was too scared of him to fight. The Gladiator girl beat all her opponents by having them fall out. There is never an out and out Male vs Female fight where they respect each other as true warriors and have a full on battle like most male fights are.

It's portrayed kind of like real life, where a female can potentially be strong, but she is never going to rival men and is an extreme minority. But OP is just not a manga that should be going for that kind of real life portrayal. It should be depicting women as equally capable of the fun, wacky, crazy badassery as men are, and having some token "She's a fighter that we'll never see out and out fight like normal fighters" is a constant and depressing contradiction to the escapism that OP should be. For some reason, when you have a vagina, that is the one time real world physics and historical prejudice in a world as seperated from any form of reality as OP can simply not be ignored? I call BS on that.

I definitely get where you're coming from and I agree with all of it, but by the same token, I don't put that much into it because it is not Oda's job to portray equality or any of that. He's just creating a manga which is definitely extremely popular all over the globe at this point, primarily targeted at teenage boys in Japan. That doesn't excuse anything, just kind of the way it is. IMO, of course.

 

[Imperial Bishop]

The issue I take with this is that in a world as absurdly fantastical as OP's, where even basic anatomy is not standard among beings that should be the same species, you cannot expect me to buy that women are meant to be inferior because of genetics. Muscle size matters nothing in OP's world, because scrawny Luffy was regularly taking on opponents many times his size in muscle mass even before Haki.

Just to touch on this part, the One Piece world may be fictional, but Oda has never hidden that he takes existing concepts and real-world issues and applies them to his story.

 

[Veelk]

I definitely get where you're coming from and I agree with all of it, but by the same token, I don't put that much into it because it is not Oda's job to portray equality or any of that. He's just creating a manga which is definitely extremely popular all over the globe at this point, primarily targeted at teenage boys in Japan. That doesn't excuse anything, just kind of the way it is. IMO, of course.

I disagree, but one of my favorite authors, Scott Lynch, said it better than I can, though it's regarding race more than sex. His point is easier to get if you have read his books, but it's not necessary.

telos954 asked: From what I can make of it, racism isn't such a HUGE thing in the GB series. We have instances of people using 'night skin' in arguments (like in the flashback portions of RoT) but there doesn't seem to be segregation or any racially motivated crimes (at least in focus). For the most part, anything similar seems to be more a culture / nationality based thing instead of race. Is this because racism is a smaller problem in the GB universe, or is it just not in focus as much as the other conflicts?

SL: Part of what I’m trying to do with this milieu is neither forget real-world problems nor dwell upon them to the point of reader oppression. Because this is a fantasy environment and a sociology that doesn’t need to spring purely from our actual cultural baggage, I am both allowed to and (imho) obligated to deliver some goddamn wish-fulfillment. While the people of Locke’s world can certainly be vicious, short-sighted, and hateful, I’m squarely opposed to the notion that they need to display perfect analogs of our prejudices. I don’t believe our prejudices are permanent or inevitable.

I have difficulty (to provide just one example) with fantasy milieus that, even in the possible service of trying not to ignore important issues, pound the oppression and sexual violation of women into every crevice of the text. This creates a sharp divergence in the reader experience; for readers like me the message is “you can be a central character in a cool adventure, go be brave!” and for people less forthrightly in possession of a Y chromosome the message is “everyone who looks like you might be raped or abused at every turn, go be nervous and agitated!” You don’t need a fucking fantasy novel to help you feel oppressed. You have the fucking news to do that for you.

Same goes for the issue of skin color in Locke’s world. Sure, I could write sharper elements of racism into the books (and there may be instances of such here and there, don’t take this as a blanket refusal to engage with the subject), but then what’s the subtle message? “People who look like Therins or Vadrans, you’re free to imagine yourselves having adventures in this imaginary world, but people with darker skin– sorry, everywhere you go, even in fiction, I’m going to follow you with the same shit you have to think about on the street every day of your lives!” Ugh. I believe I have a duty to the reader as an artist in general and a fantasist in particular, and if all I do is transpose the exact same set of nerve-wracking things you have to deal with in real life into my story, I’m failing you as a fantasist. I’m reinforcing the notion that there can be no progress for us, no respite for you. “Welcome to fantasyland, marginalized folks… where you’ll find the exact same set of problems you thought you were leaving behind when you cracked open the book!”

I think the frictions I’ve built into the world are suitable and reasonable. The phrase “nightskin” is, in most circumstances, not an epithet. Most people in Therin society smoothly integrate with and are happy to work alongside Okanti or Syresti. Some are not. I don’t doubt that the solicitor Salvard was telling the truth in REPUBLIC when he said that many well-off Esparans admire and appreciate the night-skinned… “many” is not “all.” The fact that the portside community of black Esparans harbors distrust for the city watch testifies to that. So tension exists… but not overwhelming, inescapable tension. Not institutionalized, calcified, centuries-old oceans of racism that poison entire continents.

I want to write a fictional world in which a darker character and a lighter character can be in a scene together and just, y'know, have the scene actually be about shipping rates or cooking dinner or what have you, rather than The Burden of the Darker Character who is Darker and the Writer Will Never Let You Forget It. You don’t need a fucking white fantasist to remind you that racial tension exists. Jesus, were you ever in any danger of FORGETTING? But until I pounded it into the story again, you were perhaps in danger of relaxing and enjoying a fictional world in which some small things are less fraught and shitty than they are in our own. You were, perhaps, settling in to enjoy a human adventure, until I insisted, dark-skinned reader, that even your wish fulfillment should come with an extra set of weights. And so we see how even good intentions, if unexamined, can turn out to be condescending and oppressive… and I say fuck that, whenever I can.

On a final worldbuilding note, I should also mention one more salient feature of Locke’s world. Nobody has ever successfully colonized anybody else on a grand scale. The Syresti are a black people with arts and sciences equal to the Therins, who successfully resisted every attempt by the Therin Throne to invade them. The Okanti used to be on the same plane, but are now in the midst of a diaspora brought about by natural disaster. The Vadrans were able to seize the northern half of the Therin continent, but never could have pressed south to the population centers of the empire (and were too smart to try). We haven’t met them yet, but the cultures on the other side of the world aren’t set up to take anyone’s shit, either.

The same logic applies.

Obviously, Oda is in control of his story, but the same way if he does anything someone considers 'wrong' with it, be it a racist depiction or some plot inconsistancy, or just some generally offensive material, he deserves to be called out on it, like any author. It's like free speech, anyone can say what they want, but what they say matters, so they should be careful to say the right things.

I believe we need better representation for minorities in general, and to have as popular a manga as he does while ignoring these things is something that, if not wrong, is atleast unintentionally neglectful enough to warrant comment. I consider it very important to give them that representation, so the fact that he doesn't is a point of conflict for me and I'd say many others.

 

[Jigolo]

Why does there have to be an equal amount of powerful men and women?

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Yeah, I agree, but did you really only just now realize that One Piece is sexist? I don't know man, most of the readers are most likely male, and it is in the norm to watch cool-looking men fight. It's a safe approach. Many behaviors and physical appearances are sexist, both male and especially female. It's nothing new, and I don't expect One Piece to be the manga to break all the norms, I'm afraid.

And again, most fictional works are like this. I'm not saying I approve of it, or that it's the way it should be, I'm just saying it's the way it is.

 

[Imperial Bishop]

As I brought up with another poster in a past discussion, this is more of a Japanese culture and teen boys manga issue than a complete sexism issue.

 

[Nocebo]

I would like to take this moment to point out that One Piece is a comic aimed a young teenage boys. Yet for some reason people try to view it as something more than that and discuss it on some mature level or something. This happens with many many other comics and books aimed at children as well, that get "grown ups" as fans. It is kind of ridiculous to be honest.

I also wonder about these things sometimes of course, like how can Zorro ever hope to be the best with one eye? I mean he would obviously be stronger if he had both eyes in working order. The same goes for Shanks with his arms. Realistically speaking. But comics have comic rules, so. I try to remind myself and others of that sometimes.

 

[BatDan]

There's actually a lot of women readers in Japan. Polls have shown there's a strong female fanbase.
But in the end, it's still a story intended for young boys (it is in SHONEN Jump after all) so it makes sense for the male characters to get way more focus.

 

[Veelk]

Yeah, I agree, but did you really only just now realize that One Piece is sexist? I don't know man, most of the readers are most likely male, and it is in the norm to watch cool-looking men fight. It's a safe approach. Many behaviors and physical appearances are sexist, both male and especially female. It's nothing new, and I don't expect One Piece to be the manga to break all the norms, I'm afraid.

And again, most fictional works are like this. I'm not saying I approve of it, or that it's the way it should be, I'm just saying it's the way it is.

I've realized it for a long time, it's just now that we're talking about it because I jokingly brought up the point, which other people contested, requiring me to elaborate. Nothings going to change if it isn't talked about.

The problem with that logic that readers, male AND female (and I vaguely recall a survey saying females make up a large portion of the population reading OP too) also would love to look up to awesome cool looking women fight. For someone who is as much of a escape-fantasist as Oda, this is a remarkable blindspot to the story that could be much benefited from having female representation.

The thing most people miss about feminism is that it's not just us men doing a favor to the women who are crushed by our oppression. It will also help men see them better. There is no reason that little boys shouldn't or couldn't get as excited from seeing Robin show up to kick ass as they would be any other crew member. The idea that they can't because Robin doesn't have a penis and thus is unrelatable is the core problem that lack of equal representation has produced in the first place. Boys CAN look up to women, and should be taught that it's okay to do so.

As I brought up with another poster in a past discussion, this is more of a Japanese culture and teen boys manga issue than a complete sexism issue.

As mentioned above, those aren't mutually exclusive. All cultures have sexist notions, and thus all people grow up with sexist notions. And they should be fought against, because they're antiquated and wrong.

As stated above, there is no reason a teenage boy shouldn't or couldn't look up to a women the same way they do men. It's just either discouraged or not even acknowledged because society puts pressure on boys to be manly, and how can they be manly if they look up to a female role model. Because that female role model is goddamn awesome, that's how. But that doesn't happen because Oda basically never allows women to fight on equal terms as men.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

As I brought up with another poster in a past discussion, this is more of a Japanese culture and teen boys manga issue than a complete sexism issue.

I mentioned the male thing too, but this comment doesn't make much sense I'm afraid. "More of a Japanese culture issue"? So then the issue is that the Japanese culture has sexism, therefor it's an issue of sexism. And we have it in the west though, no doubt, just look at Hollywood. And yes yes yes I know there are exceptions and I hope no one is going to post some kind of list of American action movies with female leads to prove some niche point; I'm talking about the medium as a whole.

I've realized it for a long time, it's just now that we're talking about it because I jokingly brought up the point, which other people contested, requiring me to elaborate. Nothings going to change if it isn't talked about.

The problem with that logic that readers, male AND female (and I vaguely recall a survey saying females make up a large portion of the population reading OP too) also would love to look up to awesome cool looking women fight. For someone who is as much of a escape-fantasist as Oda, this is a remarkable blindspot to the story that could be much benefited from having female representation.

The thing most people miss about feminism is that it's not just us men doing a favor to the women who are crushed by our oppression. It will also help men see them better. There is no reason that little boys shouldn't or couldn't get as excited from seeing Robin show up to kick ass as they would be any other crew member. The idea that they can't because Robin doesn't have a penis and thus is unrelatable is the core problem that lack of equal representation has produced in the first place. Boys CAN look up to women, and should be taught that it's okay to do so.

Lol, nothing is going to change because you talk about it in a small thread on GAF, man, that I guarantee. Not saying it shouldn't be brought up, but don't expect Oda to go "I should change this" because of this discussion.

Where did you get the notion that people want to see awesome cool-looking women fight? That sort of just came out of nowhere.

And look man, lol, no one is arguing against you on the last part. No one here likes sexism. We know why it's bad.

 

[Nocebo]

I've realized it for a long time, it's just now that we're talking about it because I jokingly brought up the point, which other people contested, requiring me to elaborate. Nothings going to change if it isn't talked about.

The problem with that logic that readers, male AND female (and I vaguely recall a survey saying females make up a large portion of the population reading OP too) also would love to look up to awesome cool looking women fight. For someone who is as much of a escape-fantasist as Oda, this is a remarkable blindspot to the story that could be much benefited from having female representation.

The thing most people miss about feminism is that it's not just us men doing a favor to the women who are crushed by our oppression. It will also help men see them better. There is no reason that little boys shouldn't or couldn't get as excited from seeing Robin show up to kick ass as they would be any other crew member. The idea that they can't because Robin doesn't have a penis and thus is unrelatable is the core problem that lack of equal representation has produced in the first place. Boys CAN look up to women, and should be taught that it's okay to do so.



As mentioned above, those aren't mutually exclusive. All cultures have sexist notions, and thus all people grow up with sexist notions. And they should be fought against, because they're antiquated and wrong.

As stated above, there is no reason a teenage boy shouldn't or couldn't look up to a women the same way they do men. It's just either discouraged or not even acknowledged because society puts pressure on boys to be manly, and how can they be manly if they look up to a female role model. Because that female role model is goddamn awesome, that's how. But that doesn't happen because Oda basically never allows women to fight on equal terms as men.

Why don't you send Oda an email?

 

[Veelk]

Lol, nothing is going to change because you talk about it in a small thread on GAF, man, that I guarantee. Not saying it shouldn't be brought up, but don't expect Oda to go "I should change this" because of this discussion.

Where did you get the notion that people want to see awesome cool-looking women fight? That sort of just came out of nowhere.

And look man, lol, no one is arguing against you on the last part. No one here likes sexism. We know why it's bad.

If I can get people to agree here, that's enough. What do you expect from me, to lead a charge into Japan? Simply educating people around me is enough.

I get that notion from the hundreds of times I've seen the hundreds complaints I've seen from many posters that Nami and Robin haven't had a fight since Alabasta saga. I get it from how pissed people get over how shitty the women of Naruto are portrayed as, how they're always relegated to the medic role for no discernible reason. I get it from the fans of other manga and comics and shows and movies that specifically go on to say how they appreciate women being shown to be as awesome and badass as men. I get it from myself wanting to see such things and how it opens up my mind to greater understanding of the world, as fiction is supposed to do.

For me, it was one of those things I never really knew how much I would appreciate until I saw how awesome it is to have that kind of fiction, so now I seek out nothing less and criticize it when it's not there but should be there. With One Piece, essentially the most fantastical manga I know of that laughs away reality like a bad dream, it should definitely be here.

Why don't you send Oda an email?

Give it to me, and I will. I'll even find a japanese speaker to translate it. I doubt it will do much, but better that than doing nothing.

This "It won't help, so better do nothing" attitude worries me. If you do nothing, of course nothing will change. And change itself won't come fast. It's only jsut now, in the last few years, that feminism is starting to gain some real tract in games and comics, and it's only because people started talking about the bullshit that is going on currently, with Anita, with Gamergate, with the portrayal of women. It's not perfect, god knows, nor an instant fix, but the fact that it's being talked about means that it's in people's attentions. When they're making games now, they atleast give it a consideration, even when they forgo adhering to feminist notions. Unless you take the next step and actually start creating content yourself, the only thing you can do is talk about it, make people aware, and spread ideas. That will make change that you want come slowly, incrementally. But doing nothing at all, that's what will truly kill any movement. I'm not expecting any kind of revolt to happen next week over this shit. Sexism is so entrenched into every society that I think it might be impossible to get rid of it completely. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, nor does it mean we should just shut up because it doesn't make the problem magically disappear in a puff of air.

 

[NHarmonic.]

If I can get people to agree here, that's enough. What do you expect from me, to lead a charge into Japan? Simply educating people around me is enough.

I get that notion from the hundreds of times I've seen the hundreds complaints I've seen from many posters that Nami and Robin haven't had a fight since Alabasta saga. I get it from how pissed people get over how shitty the women of Naruto are portrayed as, how they're always relegated to the medic role for no discernible reason. I get it from the fans of other manga and comics and shows and movies that specifically go on to say how they appreciate women being shown to be as awesome and badass as men. I get it from myself wanting to see such things and how it opens up my mind to greater understanding of the world, as fiction is supposed to do.

For me, it was one of those things I never really knew how much I would appreciate until I saw how awesome it is to have that kind of fiction, so now I seek out nothing less and criticize it when it's not there but should be there. With One Piece, essentially the most fantastical manga I know of that laughs away reality like a bad dream, it should definitely be here.



Give it to me, and I will. I'll even find a japanese speaker to translate it. I doubt it will do much, but better that than doing nothing.

This "It won't help, so better do nothing" attitude worries me. If you do nothing, of course nothing will change. And change itself won't come fast. It's only jsut now, in the last few years, that feminism is starting to gain some real tract in games and comics, and part of that is because people talk about the bullshit that is going on currently. It's not perfect, god knows, but the fact that it's being talked about means that it's people's attentions. When they're making games now, they atleast give it a consideration, even when they forgo adhering to feminist notions. The only thing you can do is talk about it, make people aware, and spread ideas. That will make change that you want come slowly, incrementally. But doing nothing at all, that's what will truly kill any movement. I'm not expecting any kind of revolt to happen next week over this shit. Sexism is so entrenched into every society that I think it might be impossible to get rid of it completely. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, nor does it mean we should just shut up because it doesn't make the problem magically disappear in a puff of air.

I'm with you man. Completely.

Personally i'd love to see great, creative and intense fights involving women, because after the timeskip there's been nothing like Robin vs Yama, Nami vs doublefinger or Nami vs Kalifa. Even then, those fights weren't as intense as the ones with the male characters, but still delivered.

And people saying "it's just a comic book for kids, who cares lol"... Isn't one piece the most sold manga ever on japan? new volumes sets new records in sales? If you can reach that much people with the story, the world you built, and what your characters show and do then these kind of topics are quite impactful overall.
As long as we keep nurturing the same sexist shit, then it'll continue to spread...

I love OP (it's my favorite work of fiction) and i really respect Oda, but he's by no means safe from this kind of criticism...

 

[360pages]

You have to remember the flip side of this that there entire genres for female readers and what not. Hell despite magical girl shows being heavy on cute they is rarely any fanservice in them.

Do you know how many Magical girl shows I've seen that males are regulated to die or be love interest that barely do anything? It's not really something I complain about, but there is a lot of media that does represent powerful female characters.

I think it very much have to do with genre.

When I'm watching a Magical Girl series, I don't expect males to do shit in them. Even RWBY the male there sucks so much, holy shit.

Honestly the fight thing isn't just for Nami and Robin, a lot of characters suffer from that like Chopper and even Sanji at times. It's more the fact that the cast is growing bigger so less and less people will have a chance to get into battles.

 

[Nocebo]

Give it to me, and I will. I'll even find a japanese speaker to translate it. I doubt it will do much, but better that than doing nothing.

Not sure what his email address is but but you can send a letter to the publishing company and they'll forward it to him.
Here is the address:
〒101-8050　東京都千代田区一ツ橋2-5-10

 

[Veelk]

You have to remember the flip side of this that there entire genres for female readers and what not. Hell despite magical girl shows being heavy on cute they is rarely any fanservice in them.

Do you know how many Magical girl shows I've seen that males are regulated to die or be love interest that barely do anything? It's not really something I complain about, but there is a lot of media that does represent powerful female characters.

I think it very much have to do with genre.

When I'm watching a Magical Girl series, I don't expect males to do shit in them. Even RWBY the male there sucks so much, holy shit.

Honestly the fight thing isn't just for Nami and Robin, a lot of characters suffer from that like Chopper and even Sanji at times. It's more the fact that the cast is growing bigger so less and less people will have a chance to get into battles.

I don't really watch that many magical girl series, (the only one I remember anything about is Magika Madoka, which I would say has a different take on males vs females there), but if taht's the case, then that's a problem as well. From my understanding, there isn't much male presence in those shows at all, and that bothers me as well. There shouldn't be this disparity at all. RWBY does have explicitly powerful men though, they're just not the focus of the story. But the gender balance of RWBY is pretty equal, as far as I can tell. Men don't suck there, they're just not the focus.

I just don't see how the argument that if a genre is 'aimed at' one gender, that's a free pass to portray the opposite gender as inferior is valid. The logic does not follow on any level to me on that one.

Not sure what his email address is but but you can send a letter to the publishing company and they'll forward it to him.
Here is the address:
〒101-8050　東京都千代田区一ツ橋2-5-10

I didn't actually expect you to come through on that one, but sure, I'll take it. I just seriously wonder if he'll read it. Most authors claim to read all their fanmail, but I am skeptical of the high profile ones, and Mangaka have way less freetime than basically any other story teller occupation I know of. Still, can't hurt.

 

[Jigolo]

I'm with you man. Completely.

Personally i'd love to see great, creative and intense fights involving women, because after the timeskip there's been nothing like Robin vs Yama, Nami vs doublefinger or Nami vs Kalifa. Even then, those fights weren't as intense as the ones with the male characters, but still delivered.

And people saying "it's just a comic book for kids, who cares lol"... Isn't one piece the most sold manga ever on japan? new volumes sets new records in sales? If you can reach that much people with the story, the world you built, and what your characters show and do then these kind of topics are quite impactful overall.
As long as we keep nurturing the same sexist shit, then it'll continue to spread...

I love OP (it's my favorite work of fiction) and i really respect Oda, but he's by no means safe from this kind of criticism...

But why is that a criticism when it makes no difference of how well OP is actually recieved? Why are people now a days trying to shove down female, black, white, asian, mexican, anything into someone else's creation just because? If a creator of an mostly all dog manga and people start criticizing it because there aren't enough cats why should the creator be forced to add something in their story? People are free to their own creative visions without the need of a bird or cat in the dog manga for example. Or if someone wants to make a mostly all female manga or we can get more specific, a mostly all asian woman manga, it's completely okay in my eyes. It does not mean the creator is a sexist or a racist (if a mostly all white character manga) it's just the story they came up with.

In my opinion creators deserve to give us their creative vision. Personally if Oda adds more female characters later in the series that's cool. If he doesn't that's cool too. It doesn't make One Piece any better or worse

 

[360pages]

I don't really watch that many magical girl series, (the only one I remember anything about is Magika Madoka, which I would say has a different take on males vs females there), but if taht's the case, then that's a problem as well. From my understanding, there isn't much male presence in those shows at all, and that bothers me as well. There shouldn't be this disparity at all. RWBY does have explicitly powerful men though, they're just not the focus of the story. But the gender balance of RWBY is pretty equal, as far as I can tell. Men don't suck there, they're just not the focus.

I just don't see how the argument that if a genre is 'aimed at' one gender, that's a free pass to portray the opposite gender as inferior is valid.

I actually only watched a few ep of RWBY, so it probably will get better. But it usually comes down to the weird fact that one gender might be used in a specific way. Those who create those type of shows, might see it as a secondary priority.

Ergo a show aimed towards girl might not feel the need to represent males much since A they might not be watching and B it takes time away from the females. Which is what a lot of teenage girls might want to see or their favorite characters.

The same thing happens in reverse a lot of time. I actually like the original Sailor moon for the most part. But lets face it Tuxedo mask legit is a support character that throws shit at the sailor scouts before doing nothing.

I legit don't think it's a good thing, but I can understand finding it difficult to balance both genders.

 

[Veelk]

But why is that a criticism when it makes no difference of how well OP is actually recieved? Why are people now a days trying to shove down female, black, white, asian, mexican, anything into someone else's creation just because? If a creator of an mostly all dog manga and people start criticizing it because there aren't enough cats why should the creator be forced to add something in their story? People are free to their own creative visions without the need of a bird or cat in the dog manga for example. Or if someone wants to make a mostly all female manga or we can get more specific, a mostly all asian woman manga, it's completely okay in my eyes. It does not mean the creator is a sexist or a racist (if a mostly all white character manga) it's just the story they came up with.

In my opinion creators deserve to give us their creative vision. Personally if Oda adds more female characters later in the series that's cool. If he doesn't that's cool too. It doesn't make One Piece any better or worse

The fact that you seriously stated just now the massive issues of minority representation is comparable to fucking animals is exactly why we need better minority representation.

I actually only watched a few ep of RWBY, so it probably will get better. But it usually comes down to the weird fact that one gender might be used in a specific way. Those who create those type of shows, might see it as a secondary priority.

Ergo a show aimed towards girl might not feel the need to represent males much since A they might not be watching and B it takes time away from the females. Which is what a lot of teenage girls might want to see or their favorite characters.

The same thing happens in reverse a lot of time. I actually like the original Sailor moon for the most part. But lets face it Tuxedo mask legit is a support character that throws shit at the sailor scouts before doing nothing.

I legit don't think it's a good thing, but I can understand finding it difficult to balance both genders.

It is difficult mostly because just plain good writing is difficult. I'm not saying that all shows need to have equal gender representation (in so far as the main cast is has to be equally divided). You can have a story of a group of friends that are basically all of one gender. But the fact is that men and women occupy the world together in roughly equal proportions as a whole, and however you're going to portray the gender dynamic, it ought to be thoughtful if nothing else, and if there is something fucked up about societal norms, the writer should be atleast aware of that. For example, it's pretty clear Westeros is clearly sexist as fuck, but at the same time, GRRM portrays that sexism as largely a societal thing that many characters correctly point out is bullshit.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Most authors claim to read all their fanmail, but I am skeptical of the high profile ones, and Mangaka have way less freetime than basically any other story teller occupation I know of. Still, can't hurt.

Iirc Oda said that at first he read all the fanmail, but now it's not possible any more to read all of it because he gets such an insane amount of mail. But yeah exactly, can't hurt.

 

[360pages]

Well, it is up to the creator in the end. I'd just hope the creator would want to vary up the cast a bit. This also goes back to giving a character the "Black character" trait. Which means that chances are, the creator is less doing it because they honestly think it's a good idea or want representation. But more they are simply doing it because it might be good PR.

The right way of doing it is Miles from the Spider-Man comics, they didn't just make Peter Parker Black. They made a new character with their own ideas and fears ect. A poor way of handling such a thing would be Johnny storm in the new Fantastic 4 Movie.

Instead of making a new group of Fantastic 4 or make a new character. They took a character and made him black. Even as someone as color, it really didn't make me happy. It felt more cheap to me.

Of course we are supposed to be talking about One Piece...

 

[Imperial Bishop]

There's actually a lot of women readers in Japan. Polls have shown there's a strong female fanbase.
But in the end, it's still a story intended for young boys (it is in SHONEN Jump after all) so it makes sense for the male characters to get way more focus.

You and I both know most of the female readers aren't reading for the women. (Looks at Law, Zoro, Sanji, etc.)

As mentioned above, those aren't mutually exclusive. All cultures have sexist notions, and thus all people grow up with sexist notions. And they should be fought against, because they're antiquated and wrong.

What I should have added to that post is that I know there's definitely a problem, however, One Piece isn't going to be the manga that is going to change that problem.
Japan is slow to change and it would take a bigger movement outside of comics and other medium to get the conversation started and instill some real lasting change .

As stated above, there is no reason a teenage boy shouldn't or couldn't look up to a women the same way they do men. It's just either discouraged or not even acknowledged because society puts pressure on boys to be manly, and how can they be manly if they look up to a female role model. Because that female role model is goddamn awesome, that's how. But that doesn't happen because Oda basically never allows women to fight on equal terms as men.

I'm pretty sure there are a few boys that would look up to Nami and Robin based on what they had to endure and how it's made them stronger and more enriched characters. Dealing with loss and having others to aid you and support you is a great life lesson that isn't isolated to either gender.

Fighting isn't the only way to write a strong and relatable female character. Let's not get wrapped up in that assumption.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. Robin is hella OP. Her fruit can snap people's necks from a LONG way away. She has like, the best fruit in the series.

 

[Nocebo]

I didn't actually expect you to come through on that one, but sure, I'll take it. I just seriously wonder if he'll read it. Most authors claim to read all their fanmail, but I am skeptical of the high profile ones, and Mangaka have way less freetime than basically any other story teller occupation I know of. Still, can't hurt.

I know you didn't expect it.
Anyway it is a bit of a stretch to say that women are portrayed as inferior or useless in one piece since they are mostly the most level headed and smartest ones in the story usually. While the men are usually just dumb idiots. Just because they are usually not as strong raw power wise doesn't mean they are inferior, who's being sexist now? Like brawn is the only thing that counts or something. Please quit with this shtick.

 

[Veelk]

What I should have added to that post is that I know there's definitely a problem, however, One Piece isn't going to be the manga that is going to change that problem.
Japan is slow to change and it would take a bigger movement outside of comics and other medium to get the conversation started and instill some real lasting change

No one comic or manga or book or show or movie or speaker or anything at all is going to fix this. Change is slow everywhere, and this is the longest standing prejudice on earth. My point is, every little bit helps, and OP being one of the most influential manga's ever would be a bigger help than most.

I'm pretty sure there are a few boys that would look up to Nami and Robin based on what they had to endure and how it's made them stronger and more enriched characters. Dealing with loss and having others to aid you and support you is a great life lesson that isn't isolated to either gender.

Fighting isn't the only way to write a strong and relatable female character. Let's not get wrapped up in that assumption.

The above is certainly true, but there is a pointless disparity created when women are just flat out portrayed as not being as capable as men. A disparity that shouldn't be there, that limits the potential that boys will look up to women for that. And while I'd like to believe that's what many boys think that about Nami and Robin, it's speculation. I've seen plenty people talking just on the last few pages how cool Luffy is and stuff, but I've never seen a single poster on gaf or anywhere else that actually stated how cool Nami or Robin were. At best, some off hand comment on how Robin's powers were cool, but not how Robin was cool. Most comments related to them are related to their sexual fanservice or comedy gags. Even if admiration for those characters peaks through with some poeple, it would happen a lot more if women weren't constantly portrayed as fundamentally weaker.

I know you didn't expect it.
Anyway it is a bit of a stretch to say that women are portrayed as inferior or useless in one piece since they are mostly the most level headed and smartest ones in the story usually. While the men are usually just dumb idiots. Just because they are usually not as strong raw power wise doesn't mean they are inferior, who's being sexist now? Like brawn is the only thing that counts or something. Please quit with this shtick.

I've already mentioned that it doesn't portray women as entirely useless. Neither did Naruto, and I think everyone can agree without question that manga is extremely sexist. That men are typically dumb and women smart is a sexist notion in and of itself. And the fact that brawn is what decides all the major plot points in the manga, with women never being the ones who cast their influence this way, it they are portrayed as being far more powerless than men.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

No one comic or manga or book or show or movie or speaker or anything at all is going to fix this. Change is slow everywhere, and this is the longest standing prejudice on earth. My point is, every little bit helps, and OP being one of the most influential manga's ever would be a bigger help than most.



The above is certainly true, but there is a pointless disparity created when women are just flat out portrayed as not being as capable as men. A disparity that shouldn't be there, that limits the potential that boys will look up to women for that. And while I'd like to believe that's what many boys think that about Nami and Robin, it's speculation. I've seen plenty people talking just on the last few pages how cool Luffy is and stuff, but I've never seen a single poster on gaf or anywhere else that actually stated how cool Nami or Robin were. At best, some off hand comment on how Robin's powers were cool, but not how Robin was cool. Most comments related to them are related to their sexual fanservice or comedy gags.

Robin is my favorite Straw Hat, and one of the only crew members to receive legitimate character development. She has an intricate history as an archaeologist of Ohara, which is directly related to the burgeoning World Government conspiracy storyline. She went through a period of simply following the Straw Hats, to being captured, to rejoining them, and in the process she changed entirely as a character.

She refers to people by title alone pre-Water 7. "Navigator", "Swordsman", etc.

Post-Enies Lobby she always refers to people by name, and without honorifics, showing she's grown to fully trust and rely on her crew.

Honestly, outside of Luffy himself, Robin is the best developed member of the crew.

 

[Veelk]

Robin is my favorite Straw Hat, and one of the only crew members to receive legitimate character development. She has an intricate history as an archaeologist of Ohara, which is directly related to the burgeoning World Government conspiracy storyline. She went through a period of simply following the Straw Hats, to being captured, to rejoining them, and in the process she changed entirely as a character.

She refers to people by title alone pre-Water 7. "Navigator", "Swordsman", etc.

Post-Enies Lobby she always refers to people by name, and without honorifics, showing she's grown to fully trust and rely on her crew.

Honestly, outside of Luffy himself, Robin is the best developed member of the crew.

Okay? I never said that nobody liked female cahracters, and I mentioned how Oda does give them actual characters and stuff.

This isn't the point I am making at all. The point here is about how the OP world is sexist and how women are clearly inferior to men in power for no real reason, which can severely limit how people in general (not you specifically) can regard women.

Besides, that you respect the character development doesn't mean that the character itself is empowering. Gollum, for example, is a very strong character (in that he is written well) that is, in the story, pathetic and weak.

I'm not saying OP is badly written. I'm saying it's sexist. There is a difference.

 

[360pages]

Well, it also goes back to how the series are. I would love to see Robin get a good fight. And while I like Handcock her entire ability is based around people thinking she is so beautiful that they can't fight her and then turning to stone.

It's a weird thing in every medium. Hell I do remember a competent lead in a series of mostly female characters and one of the watchers said said male character probably doesn't really have a place in such a series.

Though I do remember their was a time, where female and male series were completely separated almost. Males didn't appear in series aimed to girls and girls rarely appeared in series for guys.

Lets be honest, even a good show like Steven Universe falls into said trap, with Steven kind of being hilariously stupid most of the time.

 

[NHarmonic.]

But why is that a criticism when it makes no difference of how well OP is actually recieved? Why are people now a days trying to shove down female, black, white, asian, mexican, anything into someone else's creation just because? If a creator of an mostly all dog manga and people start criticizing it because there aren't enough cats why should the creator be forced to add something in their story? People are free to their own creative visions without the need of a bird or cat in the dog manga for example. Or if someone wants to make a mostly all female manga or we can get more specific, a mostly all asian woman manga, it's completely okay in my eyes. It does not mean the creator is a sexist or a racist (if a mostly all white character manga) it's just the story they came up with.

In my opinion creators deserve to give us their creative vision. Personally if Oda adds more female characters later in the series that's cool. If he doesn't that's cool too. It doesn't make One Piece any better or worse

Meh, it's not about the presence of female characters. It's how they are used or what's their role in the story. I'd have never thought that the character of Nami from Arlong Park or Water 7 would become just fanservice after so many years. It's not that difficult to write a good fight that involves a female, can it be? Hell, many people here wanted Robin to go against Trebol or have a 1 on 1 with someone after so much time.

Meanwhile, Cavendish, Bartolomeo, Zoro, Usopp, Kyros...

Against: Rebecca (lol), Viola (what happened with the eye-combat techniques?), Robin (caught Hakuba, saved Rebecca from Diamante and that's it), Nami (saved by Brook). And let's not even go with the factory woman with the vacuum and baby5...

The differences are too jarring, we are just used to it now.

So i guess it's too much to ask. I'll have to wait for the fight against BB for a proper 1 on 1 involving the girls.

I'm pretty sure there are a few boys that would look up to Nami and Robin based on what they had to endure and how it's made them stronger and more enriched characters. Dealing with loss and having others to aid you and support you is a great life lesson that isn't isolated to either gender.

Fighting isn't the only way to write a strong and relatable female character. Let's not get wrapped up in that assumption.

You're spot on. However, it can't hurt to have your female characters stand against the "big powers" in the same way the male counterparts do. Hell, when Nami beated Kalifa it was really amazing, loved the thunderstorm tempo-panel. That fight was intense, intelligent and full of badassery. Why can't we have more of that?

 

[Nocebo]

... men are typically dumb and women smart is a sexist notion in and of itself. And the fact that brawn is what decides all the major plot points in the manga, with women never being the ones who cast their influence this way, it they are portrayed as being far more powerless than men.

do you even read this manga? "Never" you sure do like your hyperbole huh? Also strange that you think people relying on female leadership is sexist. Are you even being serious right now? I already know you were not serious asking for contact details so maybe you're just completely full of shit?

 

[BobTheFork]

I'm REALLY hoping that somehow everyone else gets around the birdcage and it ends up closing on Doffy to kill him. I don't see how that can happen but it would be great. I also don't except Doffy to die; Meaning it will be interesting to see what he takes away from his loss like so many other characters.

 

[Jigolo]

Meh, it's not about the presence of female characters. It's how they are used or what's their role in the story. I'd have never thought that the character of Nami from Arlong Park or Water 7 would become just fanservice after so many years. It's not that difficult to write a good fight that involves a female, can it be? Hell, many people here wanted Robin to go against Trebol or have a 1 on 1 with someone after so much time.

Meanwhile, Cavendish, Bartolomeo, Zoro, Usopp, Kyros...

Against: Rebecca (lol), Viola (what happened with the eye-combat techniques?), Robin (caught Hakuba, saved Rebecca from Diamante and that's it), Nami (saved by Brook). And let's not even go with the factory woman with the vacuum and baby5...

The differences are too jarring, we are just used to it now.

So i guess it's too much to ask. I'll have to wait for the fight against BB for a proper 1 on 1 involving the girls.

Yeah I do agree on this front. I'd love to see Robin go ham on someone, that'd be awesome.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I'm REALLY hoping that somehow everyone else gets around the birdcage and it ends up closing on Doffy to kill him. I don't see how that can happen but it would be great. I also don't except Doffy to die; Meaning it will be interesting to see what he takes away from his loss like so many other characters.

I imagine Fujitora will take Doffy to Impel Down at the end of all this, unless some emperor captures/saves him.

 

[Veelk]

do you even read this manga? "Never" you sure do like your hyperbole huh? Also strange that you think people relying on female leadership is sexist. Are you even being serious right now? I already know you were not serious asking for contact details so maybe you're just completely full of shit?

Well, this escalated quickly. First off, I just meant that I didn't expect you to go and get the contact details. Second, even if I didn't plan on mailing Oda, that wouldn't negate the validity of the arguments itself.

Third, you're the one moving to hyperbole if you literally take the term 'never' to actually mean 'never ever'. I think it's pretty obvious that it is a rare thing, and it has to be a rare thing because female leaders are rarer than shiny pokemon in this manga. There's, what, or two token females in any given major group. 1 out of 4 Yonko's. 1 out of 7 Shichibukai's. 2 out of....a bunch of marine commanders. And so on. Just mathematically, there can't be anywhere close to equal influence when the vast majority of any power head is male, unless for some reason the females are disproportionately powerful in those groups and excersize that power frequently, and we know they're clearly not. The vast majority of commands are from male commanders. Hancock is extremely inactive as a Shichibukai, only really taking action at the behest of Luffy, otherwise mostly chilling on Amazon Island. The two female commanders aren't in especially high positions of power, and have rarely appeared. Big Mom is the only one that has made a movements roughly in equal proportions to the other Yonko, but I imagine that will eventually get overshadowed by the Kaido and Blackbeard conflicts once we get to them.

Stop antagonizing for no reason. Everyone here, despite the disagreements, is having a civil discussion. Lets keep it that way.

 

[Nocebo]

I suppose it is outrageous that the main protagonist of this comic, who is male, is the one who seemingly resolves most of the major plot points in the comic he is the main protagonist of.

Btw I don't think this is the place to discuss what is and isn't sexist in general. Which this is devolving into.