pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
I think Law beat her too. (unless he's secretly a girl)
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One Piece Manga |OT| ZEHAHAHAHA! The Name of this Age is Blackbeard!
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I think Law beat her too. (unless he's secretly a girl)
Byakuya769
Member
He also beat Smoker.
Aaronrules380
Member
Hence the part about also beating smoker, her boss
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
Ah, I misread.
Aaronrules380
Member
I'm just tired of these judgements always being entirely about looks and fights
I think no one is saying that. More the saying that instead of legit providing examples or their actions or inactions to the character. Your entire judgement of the character is based entirely on fanservice.
Again, I feel you're confusing strong characterization with physical power. Kuina wasn't strong, she was a kid. Strong for a kid, maybe, but even the weakest opponent Zoro faced when he was grown up would body her. Kuina was a strong character because she was determined to be strong, and had anxiety issues. She was not physically strong, and it was made an undisputed point that she would be fundamentally weaker than men in her life because boobs. It's impossible to gauge how strong or weak she would have been had she survived, so we only have the strength she had as a kid, which isn't much. Hina barely exists in the manga, having been introduced and done very little, Big Mom just got introduced (though I agree she is an exception as being a huge figure of power in the OP world) and Robin by her own admission is weak and has to compensate by using her DF in a unique way. It's not explained why she can't just get physically stronger in a straight forward way like how most of the men are, implying she just can't, because there is no reason not to if she can.
OP is well written in many ways, yes, and the fact that it's women are often fully developed characters are proof of that. But even among the examples you list, they are no where in the league of their comtemporaries. I don't see any reason why Robin can't start training with Zoro and get physically fit like Usopp did so she can use her DF in a more direct way. And it doesn't change that portrayal of the world in general has women at a severe disadvantage.
I'll definitely agree that OP is doing a better job than Naruto. Bleach is sexist too and definitely not as well written, but I'd say it has more women in positions of power than OP does. Naruto is LOL worthy, yes. I haven't read Fairy Tale, and yeah, DBZ has it bad too. But it's most definitely not anywhere near good enough.
Here is my criteria for an OP world that isn't sexist: Ideally, Male and Female Marines and Pirates would be roughly in equal proportions and the organization leaders (The gorosei, the marines, famous pirates, etc) would be making as many world influencing actions as men. But suppose Oda wanted to portray sexism as a matter of authenticity related to the world. If there were a small disproportion to how many men there were vs how many women, like maybe 75%-25%, then I'd want that to be because of CULTURAL norms, not physical differences. Make it explicit that women are only the minority because men tell them they should be in the kitchen, rather than that they are, factually, physically weaker. When the world is run on believe and not any kind of real world physics like OP is, there is no reason to have meaningful gender differences at all.
Welcome to Shounen, which is pretty much looks and fights.
Aaronrules380
Member
Robin literally stopped hakuba in his tracks with pretty much no apparent effort, and he's been portrayed as one of the strongest characters in the arc. Why is Zoro the bar for power anyways
Bleach is really decent with female most of the time. Even when a female is captured their is usually another female helping to save her. That and they actually have varying bust sizes for the female cast.
With that said, Bleach legit turned into a cluster fuck most of the time.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
Veelk wants the women to be Zoro / Sanji powerful (even though Sanji has been a joke post time skip), with fun / strong fights, and counts the lack thereof as a big negative despite every other positive light Oda paints his female characters in (besides boobs). Doesn't make much sense besides it being a battle manga and true equality for women in a battle manga = them being Zoro.
Aaronrules380
Member
orihime and rukia were both pretty useless in the rescue arcs
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Being reductionist doesn't make your statement correct
Most of the male characters in the series are ugly
Most of the male characters are buffoons
"The strong women are only props to be surpassed." You mean the villains? Yeah how about that.
NHarmonic.
Member
We're clearly lacking the last thing, in a fighter's world, in a fighting manga, for the female characters. I don't get why can't we have more fights for them? and having them be "strong" in this aspect too, adding to the other ones already mentioned?
This thread goes fast when there are discussions like this one. I should be studying for an exam i have tomorrow lol
I'd say true equality for women in THIS battle manga in particualr would be them = men. Women shouldn't be portrayed as better than men anymore than they should be portrayed as worse than them. Women being the same as men would just be that: Them being as frequent members and holding power positions as men. Some would be Yonko/Shichibukai strong. Many would be grunt marine weak. Some would be awesome. Some would be cowards. That's the extent of what I'm saying. I don't see how this does not make sense in a manga that ignores real world physics to the extent that OP does.
Aaronrules380
Member
i agree, although one could argue that the lack of women in power is because less women in universe are drawn to going out to sea and trying to get that strong. Which could easily be the result of cultural gender roles in universe
Well, it's usually because media doesn't like portraying woman fighting a male opponents, and when they do it's rarely equal. Us as society do not like having female characters getting beaten up as badly as a male would fighting another character.
That why when such fights take place it's female on female. Having a male getting beaten up by a female in a fight is far more easier on us than having that same amount of violence reversed. When it does it rarely portrayed as a fight and more of a bad guy being evil.
That why when such fights take place it's female on female. Having a male getting beaten up by a female in a fight is far more easier on us than having that same amount of violence reversed. When it does it rarely portrayed as a fight and more of a bad guy being evil.
It definitely is that, but that's why we need female characters that do exactly that. To fight backwards cultural gender roles that pidgeonhole society into believing that women can't do those things. This is why I've been arguing this for the last few hours. I think it's very important.
Well, that's one of the ways sexism harms men. It portrays men as being horribly beaten as acceptable, atleast relative to women. It's bullshit. Neither should be beaten like this. But usually, when women get beaten, it's a matter of victimizing the woman. Stories that come close to gender equality portray women getting beaten as terrible as men getting beaten, and it works. And furthermore, when women get beaten, that's not the end of them. They get back up, recover, and hit back. It's not a matter of them just being punching bags then, but them being human beings who are fighting for their lives. At that point, it's not that the badness of them getting beaten is a good thing, but you also admire how they get back up and kick ass and are awesome. They become action heroes in the same vain that males are, and it's awesome.
Aaronrules380
Member
I mean there are characters like big mom and catering Devon, plus robin is clearly the strongest person on the SH side this arc barring Zoro, Luffy, law, and maybe kyros
On mobile I see
Aaronrules380
Member
Fuck autocorrect
I pretty much agree with everything you're saying Veelk.
What makes it a little frustrating for me is that Oda showed early on he could create female characters with great representation. If he was like most other authors with females I wouldn't care all that much.
It's a shame what he's turned Nami into. Although TBH I feel like a lot of characters have taken a turn for the worse.
What makes it a little frustrating for me is that Oda showed early on he could create female characters with great representation. If he was like most other authors with females I wouldn't care all that much.
It's a shame what he's turned Nami into. Although TBH I feel like a lot of characters have taken a turn for the worse.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
So if the world of one piece pigeonholes women into traditional gender roles, wouldn't most of the female characters in the series be going against that?
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Flanderization... or character assassination?
It's both
Veelk, I doubt any female will ever reach Zoro/Luffy levels. Big Mom, maybe, but she is an UGLY mofo, so I doubt she counts in your eyes. I realize what you're saying, but you have to take the series for what it is. I don't see it changing anytime soon. I'm trying to point out the bright side of things and say that OP is more progressive than you might think. You certainly raise a good point where future "successor shonen" (like OP is to DB) can improve, though.
No, that's not how societal roles work. Oppress a cultural group in some way, a portion of them accept it. In it's most extreme, there was a group of muslim women who derided girls for getting an education as that is for men. In more positive examples, they adopt the oppressive tactic in a more positive matter. For example, the burka's muslims wear was obviously a gender role made because women couldn't socialize with men outside the house, but nowadays many of them enjoy it as a fashion statement, and use it for convenient privacy when going out.
Cultural roles are complex. People don't just rebel against them arbitrarily, even the ones that seem logical to.
But you're asking about OP, not real life. In OP, most women seem to have accepted and have no problem with being weaker than men. The only one who rebelled up to now was Kuina, and Tagashi is the only female in the series that seems to point out potentially sexist attitudes, and that's only within Zoro. It would be better if more characters commented on such things in general.
Aaronrules380
Member
pretty sure he meant that since most female characters in the series are pirates or marines, they were going against them, not random towns person #5
Aaronrules380
Member
Honestly, I think it's more that the cast has become hard to manage due to size, which is also why he had half the crew sit most of this arc out
Why wouldn't those be counted as a portrayal of the society that OP depicts? One possibility I haven't considered I suppose is that there is just a genuine shortage of women, for some reason. Idk, someone would have to count the random crowd ratio depicted in various towns, but I would assume it's equal within the civilian population. I don't see the reason why it'd be anything than what it appears to be:
Kuina established early on that women are far inferior to men. Hell, it's a running joke in the fandom that in a world where regular people survive getting shot in the head, she died from falling down some stairs. I don't see any reason to assume anything than what is suggested:
The reason there are few women living the warrior's life as a pirate or marine is because they suck, so they stick to cooking and cleaning. They're never depicted as physically powerful in the same vain men are and often have to use different tactics to compensate for lack of strength, even when it seems that they should be just as strong as men.
Eh...I'm on the fence on Big Mom.
On one hand, I suppose I should take what I can get. If Big Mom can be an awesome female character that has as much physical power as the other male Yonko's, great. On the other hand, the same way Oda was all "Women can be great as long as they're men!", the fact that the only female characters are that seem to play on men's terms are ones that look more like monsters than women is a problem. It identifies feminine features as inherently weak, so if a woman doesn't have them, that must mean she's strong.
I appreciate you trying to be optimistic about it, but for me, it just kind of illuminates how far we have to go. It'd be great if the successor to OP can deal with this BS once and for all, and OP is better than the main manga's (sort of), but it's just not enough.
Dressrosa did go a tad overboard with new characters
We have most of Doflamingo's crew, the Dressrosa royal family, the Tontatta tribe, and so many tournament fighters. Some important enough to actually take out members of the Donquixote Family.
We have most of Doflamingo's crew, the Dressrosa royal family, the Tontatta tribe, and so many tournament fighters. Some important enough to actually take out members of the Donquixote Family.
Aaronrules380
Member
most men aren't portrayed as anywhere near as strong as Luffy or Zoro either. Also, I honestly think kuina's death was supposed to be suicide, it just wasn't explicitly stated
Sibersk Esto
Banned
or maybe because the world of one piece is an oppressive hellhole governed by self righteous asshats locked in a barely Cold War against sociopathic pirates just trying to escape the rampant poverty.
NHarmonic.
Member
Yeah, personally in this Post timeskip-arc i loved Law and Doflamingo's respective stories, and i even consider Corazón as top 3 flashback characters.
I hate to say this, though, but law kind of overstayed it's welcome.
He was a guest star party member in the last arc. Plus this arc and he made a decent amount of appearance before the Time-Skip.
I love the guy, but either make him a permanent crew member already or hurry the story along.
Jigolo
Member
eh it really wasn't. Sabo returning would be the most exciting but there are other exciting things about OP post time skip. Doffy & Corazon back story, Aokiji saving Smoker was exciting, Luffy & comp trashing the Pacifista was cool, I'm sure there is more.
I feel like Oda set up the second half similar to how he did the first half IMO.
Starting off pretty slow but definitely getting better as the time goes.
East Blue arcs = Finshman Island
Grand line (chopper arc)/ Alabasta = Punk Hazard
and so on and so forth. I definitely see where your coming from since I had the same impression but it *seems* to be picking up (I've really enjoyed Dressrosa). We'll see how it really compares to the first half as time goes on
I always felt that Kuina's death was meant to symbolize the frailty of life. That no matter how strong you are, you can die in an instant. Which is part of Zoro's goal to be the strongest swordsman, to beat death itself (considering how often he's injured, this happens a lot)
Or, Oda just didn't have a good idea what to do since he was just starting out and wouldn't get into his flashback groove until Nami (though one can argue Sanji)
I wonder if any OP philosophers wonder why people just sort of stopped dying at a certain point.
People die, they're just not important enough to name.
Lots of people died in the Alabasta civil war
Eneru likely killed a lot of unnamed characters
Nameless shipwrights were slaughtered when CP9 attacked
Lots of people outside of Ace & Whitebeard died in Marineford
Lots of people died in the Alabasta civil war
Eneru likely killed a lot of unnamed characters
Nameless shipwrights were slaughtered when CP9 attacked
Lots of people outside of Ace & Whitebeard died in Marineford
NHarmonic.
Member
Now i'm wondering if the guy Lucky Roo shot in the first chapter is actually alive or not...
Probably yes
Don't worry, when he woke up they told him it was just a pop-gun.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
I mean, these things are already happening in the Manga, it's just that there are no flashy battles to back it up. That's the angle that I'm taking here, not that I disagree with you, but that the lack of flashy battles making it so Women are oppressed just seems odd. There are girls who are portrayed as weak, but there are TONS of dudes who are equally as weak in the series. That's all I got.
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