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[UnemployedVillain]

Oda has been using Kidd and the other Rookies as ways for the audience to grasp how much more powerful an enemy is than Luffy/what Luffy has to overcome, but as you just stated, because we aren't seeing the Rookies other than Law and Luffy do much, it's backfiring in the eyes of the audience. It's hard to think of Kidd as being on the same level as Luffy and Law when we haven't really seen him do anything other than forming an alliance.

I wouldn't say it's backfiring. I think people keep trying to apply super simple "A is better than B" logic to everything and arriving at conclusions when none are possible to arrive at. We don't know the situations, conditions, alliances, etc involving the other supernovas. People need to stop applying this stupid logic that if someone loses a fight they're weaker than the other person and if they win they're stronger

 

[smurfx]

yeah i think luffy will probably bail on a possible fight with big mom once he learns how tough just her underlings are. hopefully that will cause him to awaken his fruit and try to power up that way. guess luffy's purpose here is to learn a lesson on what taking down an emperor means. i don't think he is going to lose again because we've already seen that but he will pull back because he isn't ready. although i do expect him to steal the poneglyph or get a copy of it and piss off big mom. in honor of urogue here is this again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ancwu_9KFTk

 

[Dugna]

Most of the fights in One piece haven't been about pure strength in a long time, its usually about the certain power somebody has mixed with other factors...its why one piece is interesting in fights that don't always = Power level bullcrap.

Weird to see Gear 4th this soon though....guess Oda doesn't want to mess around with underlings that much since Big Mom probably has a army to deal with.

 

[Daingurse]

Man, that cracka ass Cracker is pretty damn tough. Luffy's Gear 2 and 3 are completely useless on high level opponents. I really wonder what kind of Bounty Doflamingo would have been packing, considering how high Cracker's bounty is. Doflamingo was goddamn monster.

Also, the Urouge hype really is strong lol.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

Is this arc gonna be shorter since the whole crew aint there or somethin? Or maybe Mama follows chases them down to Wano for a big 3-way confrontation with Kaido and Luffy

 

[Red Fire]

Uuuuurrrrrrroooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[TheGreatDirector]

yeah i think luffy will probably bail on a possible fight with big mom once he learns how tough just her underlings are. hopefully that will cause him to awaken his fruit and try to power up that way. guess luffy's purpose here is to learn a lesson on what taking down an emperor means. i don't think he is going to lose again because we've already seen that but he will pull back because he isn't ready. although i do expect him to steal the poneglyph or get a copy of it and piss off big mom. in honor of urogue here is this again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ancwu_9KFTk

Luffy made a decision at the end of Dressrosa though to never run away from an opponent again. I can't imagine he will start a fight with Big Mom and then just leave halfway through.

That being said, Luffy really needs to get stronger. His base levels powers just don't work on higher level opponents anymore (Gear 2 and 3 did practically nothing to Doflamingo and Cracker). As you said he either needs to awaken his fruit or master using Gear 4 for extended periods of time(or perhaps just use different forms of Gear 4).

 

[bjork]

Randomly: did a few posts vanish from this thread? My last post was at the top of the page for me when I made it, now it's a page back toward the bottom.

 

[Red Fire]

Randomly: did a few posts vanish from this thread? My last post was at the top of the page for me when I made it, now it's a page back toward the bottom.

Probably some urouge haters got banned and their posts deleted

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Probably some urouge haters got banned and their posts deleted

Lol still Alive and kicking
Screw that fallen monk

 

[cntr]

Urouge comes from the Sky Islands, meaning the Marines would have no idea about Urouge's adventures.

 

[Johnlenham]

arnt all the other people mentioned locked up by / working for kaido? not "dead" like mirror woman makes out

 

[cntr]

I mean, she says Urouge died, but he didn't

 

[UnemployedVillain]

arnt all the other people mentioned locked up by / working for kaido? not "dead" like mirror woman makes out

She isn't implying they're dead, she's implying they were brutally beaten without even coming close to Big Mom

 

[marmoka]

So, it is confirmed then that the trees have respect of Nami, because they feel Big Mom's soul in her, because of the Vivre Card, but that still does not confirm Nami isn't Big Mom's daughter, haha.

Nice chapter. 2 enemies besten in one. Oda is going fast this time.

 

[Ray Down]

Lol still Alive and kicking
Screw that fallen monk

You will see the smile one day, then you will change.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

You will see the smile one day, then you will change.

Can't believe he achieved something good before my boy apoo did

 

[Oxn]

URRROUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

He needs to work on leg day.

 

[Ray Down]

Can't believe he achieved something good before my boy apoo did

He achieved something, he stabbed Kidd behind his back.

You know what i was wrong, Kidd is the Sanji/Smoker of the Supernovas.

 

[Oxn]

Urouge, my top 3 Supernova along with Zoro and Bonney.

 

[BobTheFork]

I would have sent in a question to Trump's AMA about which SH was his favorite, but we all know it's Sanji and forcing that confirmation just felt mean : (

 

[Imperial Bishop]

Man, y'all were sleeping on Urouge all these years and Oda was like "Nope. He can tangle with an Emperor's top dogs."

This fight with Cracker was just what we needed following up the Judge fight from a month ago.
I was starting to doubt we'd see Gear 4th again so soon, but Cracker wouldn't be worth the title of 'Big Mom Sweet Commander" if he couldn't push Luffy this far.
If Luffy truly does have another Gear 4th form (which is 50/50) now might be the right moment to reveal it.

Wait, is Cracker going to be the Blueno of this arc? lol

 

[TheGreatDirector]

Man, y'all were sleeping on Urouge all these years and Oda was like "Nope. He can tangle with an Emperor's top dogs."

This fight with Cracker was just what we needed following up the Judge fight from a month ago.
I was starting to doubt we'd see Gear 4th again so soon, but Cracker wouldn't be worth the title of 'Big Mom Sweet Commander" if he couldn't push Luffy this far.
If Luffy truly does have another Gear 4th form (which is 50/50) now might be the right moment to reveal it.

Wait, is Cracker going to be the Blueno of this arc? lol

Nah he won't be Blueno. I imagine he'll actually put up a good fight against Gear 4. We've hardly seen any of his abilities yet aside from the multiple arm thing.

 

[Veelk]

Theories of Kidd being just a jobber make me sad. He's one of the best Anti-Luffy's out there due to being in a similar position, except without giving any fucks, and I'm just a big fan of foils as narrative devices. Seeing him taken down like this would just be disappointing.

Anyway, real reason I'm here is this:

This is awesomely terrifying. I have some reservations about Big Mom's character design because I wanted it to be a bit more monstrous, and I'm hoping she has another form that's kind of similar to this one. She looks like a goddamn human shark.

 

[B-Dubs]

Theories of Kidd being just a jobber make me sad. He's one of the best Anti-Luffy's out there due to being in a similar position, except without giving any fucks, and I'm just a big fan of foils as narrative devices. Seeing him taken down like this would just be disappointing.

Anyway, real reason I'm here is this:



This is awesomely terrifying. I have some reservations about Big Mom's character design because I wanted it to be a bit more monstrous, and I'm hoping she has another form that's kind of similar to this one. She looks like a goddamn human shark.

Kidd isn't Luffy's foil though, Blackbeard is. That's what their whole meeting on Jaya was meant to establish. A foil isn't about being completely different, it's about highlighting important differences.

 

[Oxn]

urouge can prolly get his revenge on Kizaru now, and kick his butt.

 

[AgentLampshade]

What kind of sweet is Bobbin?

Oh. And Cracker is very nearly the Sundowner of One Piece.

 

[Veelk]

Kidd isn't Luffy's foil though, Blackbeard is. That's what their whole meeting on Jaya was meant to establish. A foil isn't about being completely different, it's about highlighting important differences.

You can have more than one, and I think of Kidd as the better one or atleast the one I prefer.

 

[B-Dubs]

You can have more than one, and I think of Kidd as the better one or atleast the one I prefer.

He's not really set up as a foil though. Nothing about the two characters, or the plot, is advanced by their comparison. We learn nothing about them by putting them side by side. Kidd isn't a foil in any sense of the term.

 

[dabig2]

So one thing I liked when Luffy was getting tossed around earlier in the chapter was his haki defense. He should have been skewered numerous times, but he was able to hold out vs such a strong and capable swordsman. If Cracker isn't down for the count, I wonder if Luffy will be forced to use King Kong Gun and show off some other more powerful moves of G4 we haven't seen yet.

 

[Metal B]

Theories of Kidd being just a jobber make me sad. He's one of the best Anti-Luffy's out there due to being in a similar position, except without giving any fucks, and I'm just a big fan of foils as narrative devices. Seeing him taken down like this would just be disappointing.

Maybe we all interpreted the fight back to back from Luffy, Law and Kidd on Sabaody Archipelago wrong. We saw it as them being on the same level, the elite of the worst generation, which will be the main rivals for Luffy on his race to become a Yanko and even the Pirate King. Instead they maybe will become Luffy's main allies.

Kidd is in a really bad situation, but in an interesting one to become the "Law" of the Kaido arc. Luffy helps him, we get more of his backstory and Luffy, Law and Kidd fight again back to back against Kaido and his crew. If the other members of his short lived alliance really turned over to Kaido, then he properly has a lot of beef with them.

Maybe we see all captains of the worst generation starting to take sides with the Yonkos. Since we know, that Luffy will also become one, it make sense for some of them joining his fleet.
Jewelry Bonney and Urouge sound like Wild Cards in this scenario. Bonney's interaction with Zoro, a very likely hatred for Blackbeard and an interesting relationship to the Marines or World Government, makes her also very likely to get on the side of the Strawhats.

 

[Veelk]

He's not really set up as a foil though. Nothing about the two characters, or the plot, is advanced by their comparison. We learn nothing about them by putting them side by side. Kidd isn't a foil in any sense of the term.

He's basically the same character as Luffy is except ruthless. Dreams of being the Pirate King and has gone on a similar journey as Luffy through the Grand Line to get it, except when people laughed at Luffy, Luffy ignored him, and when people laughed at Kidd, he killed them.

Like, you don't really need more to be a foil than that. Just be a dark reflection of a character in some way. Kidd qualifies.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Who the hell are Sundowner and Yammy and stuff? I don't read other shounen manga. Oh. You guys are bringing up that Bleach filth in this pure, pure thread.

 

[Daingurse]

Who the hell are Sundowner and Yammy and stuff? I don't read other shounen manga.

Yammy is a an Arrancar from Bleach. I have no idea who the hell Sundowner is.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Sundowner from metal gear rising?

 

[B-Dubs]

He's basically the same character as Luffy is except ruthless. Dreams of being the Pirate King and has gone on a similar journey as Luffy through the Grand Line to get it, except when people laughed at Luffy, Luffy ignored him, and when people laughed at Kidd, he killed them.

Like, you don't really need more to be a foil than that. Just be a dark reflection of a character in some way. Kidd qualifies.

The whole point of a foil is to highlight aspects of the contrasted character. We haven't seen nearly enough of Kidd for him to be an effective foil for Luffy, you're literally referring to a single line there, I think you're just giving him way more importance than he actually has in the story. Like, Watson is a foil for Holmes, Cassius is a foil for Brutus and Brutus is one for Antony. Kidd does nothing that those comparisons do, Blackbeard as a foil does do the same work those comparisons do.

I think you just like Kidd is all, and that's fine. He's not a foil though.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

You can have more than one, and I think of Kidd as the better one or atleast the one I prefer.

How is Kidd a foil? We barely know a thing about him and when we first saw him he teamed up with Luffy. In fact, the one constant in that scene was emphasizing the similarities between the three captains - that they each want a piece of marine ass to kick. Nothing about Kidd has been set up to be a foil for Luffy. Any character that is different than Luffy is a foil? Is Law Luffy's foil too?

 

[Veelk]

The whole point of a foil is to highlight aspects of the contrasted character. We haven't seen nearly enough of Kidd for him to be an effective foil for Luffy, you're literally referring to a single line there, I think you're just giving him way more importance than he actually has in the story. Like, Watson is a foil for Holmes, Cassius is a foil for Brutus and Brutus is one for Antony. Kidd does nothing that those comparisons do, Blackbeard as a foil does do the same work those comparisons do.

I think you just like Kidd is all, and that's fine. He's not a foil though.

He...is a foil. Just not a significant or meaningful one at the moment. I mean, I don't deny that. I know he's not very important to the story, but I'm expressing a wish for him to gain importance, because the basic contrast of him (Being the same basic character but with a vicious streak) is one I like. And I feel it's a significant one. The thing you can boil Luffy down to is that he's a friendly guy who wants to be pirate king. Kidd is a vicious guy that wants to be pirate king. It not complicated.

You can say that he isn't Luffy's best foil because it's shallow, but that's a different argument from saying he isn't a foil at all. The qualifications of being a foil are not particularly high or difficult to achieve. It'd be like arguing that a burger isn't a burger if it's not a good enough burger. Doesn't really matter how shitty a burger it is, if it's a patty between two buns, it's a burger. Same thing here.


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Foil

Sometimes a foil is a flat or Bit Character, a secondary character that comes on stage, sparks a response, then fades from the story. More often, though, the foil is a recurring character that has a personality, or an opinion of things, that is different from another recurring character. This character can be the opposite of the character in many ways — or perhaps very, very, very similar, except for a crucial difference.

The bold seems to qualify him.

Similar characters with one crucial difference.

 

[dabig2]

How is Kidd a foil? We barely know a thing about him and when we first saw him he teamed up with Luffy. In fact, the one constant in that scene was emphasizing the similarities between the three captains - that they each want a piece of marine ass to kick. Nothing about Kidd has been set up to be a foil for Luffy. Any character that is different than Luffy is a foil? Is Law Luffy's foil too?

To be fair, Shakky's talk of Kidd sets him up as a foil to Luffy going by the textbook (well Wikipedia) definition of foil:

In fiction, a foil is a character who contrasts with another character (usually the protagonist) in order to highlight particular qualities of the other character.[2][3][4] In some cases, a subplot can be used as a foil to the main plot. This is especially true in the case of metafiction and the "story within a story" motif.[5] The word foil comes from the old practice of backing gems with foil in order to make them shine more brightly

Kidd is talked about as being more ruthless and edgy than Luffy, something which Shakky expresses dislike at, and it's why she roots for easygoing chaotic good characters like Luffy. This is a character making a direct comparison and contrasting the characteristics attributed to both of them and then choosing to support 1 character over the other based solely on that contrast.

And yes, Law could be a foil to Luffy too.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Kidd getting his ass kicked was inevitable. You walk around blowing up yonkou ships and crucifying people like he did and sooner or later you get popped.

 

[B-Dubs]

He...is a foil. Just not a significant or meaningful one at the moment. I mean, I don't deny that. I know he's not very important to the story, but I'm expressing a wish for him to gain importance, because the basic contrast of him (Being the same basic character but with a vicious streak) is one I like. And I feel it's a significant one. The thing you can boil Luffy down to is that he's a friendly guy who wants to be pirate king. Kidd is a vicious guy that wants to be pirate king. It not complicated.

You can say that he isn't Luffy's best foil because it's shallow, but that's a different argument from saying he isn't a foil at all. The qualifications of being a foil are not particularly high or difficult to achieve. It'd be like arguing that a burger isn't a burger if it's not a good enough burger. Doesn't really matter how shitty a burger it is, if it's a patty between two buns, it's a burger. Same thing here.

The whole point of a foil is that in the comparison we learn something about the character being foiled. Watson makes Holmes look more brilliant, Blackbeard makes Luffy look more noble, Thrushcross Grange makes Wuthering Heights (and the people within) look darker and less refined. Kidd as a foil does literally 0 work in this manner, it shows us nothing new or exemplifies anything about Luffy.

You've basically simplified the idea of a foil down to the point where it literally has 0 meaning here.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Foil



The bold seems to qualify him.

Similar characters with one crucial difference.

You're completely missing the point of a foil here. In their comparison we learn nothing about either character, the whole point of a foil is to advance our understanding of the things being foiled.

To be fair, Shakky's talk of Kidd sets him up as a foil to Luffy going by the textbook (well Wikipedia) definition of foil:



Kidd is talked about as being more ruthless and edgy than Luffy, something which Shakky expresses dislike at, and it's why she roots for easygoing chaotic good characters like Luffy. This is a character making a direct comparison and contrasting the characteristics attributed to both of them and then choosing to support 1 character over the other based solely on that contrast.

And yes, Law could be a foil to Luffy too.

This also misses the point of a foil.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Ok. If Kidd is a foil to Luffy and Luffy has multiple foils why is Kidd seen as more preferable to BB?

 

[Veelk]

The whole point of a foil is that in the comparison we learn something about the character being foiled. Watson makes Holmes look more brilliant, Blackbeard makes Luffy look more noble, Thrushcross Grange makes Wuthering Heights (and the people within) look darker and less refined. Kidd as a foil does literally 0 work in this manner, it shows us nothing new or exemplifies anything about Luffy.

You've basically simplified the idea of a foil down to the point where it literally has 0 meaning here.



You're completely missing the point of a foil here. In their comparison we learn nothing about either character, the whole point of a foil is to advance our understanding of the things being foiled.

Well, as dabig pointed out, Shakky specifically drew the comparison to Kidd and Luffy because she didn't like how vicious he was. So same thing as Blackbeard, Kidd makes Luffy look more noble. It's literally becomes the basis of a plotpoint if it's the reason that Shakky decides to help out Luffy.

Ok. If Kidd is a foil to Luffy and Luffy has multiple foils why is Kidd seen as more preferable to BB?

For me personally? I probably relate to Kidd's reaction to the OP world more than any other character. I don't think he's a better foil necessarily in the sense that he's better written than BB, because Kidd hasn't been in the story long enough for that to be true. I just prefer him as a character.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

The whole point of a foil is that in the comparison we learn something about the character being foiled. Watson makes Holmes look more brilliant, Blackbeard makes Luffy look more noble, Thrushcross Grange makes Wuthering Heights (and the people within) look darker and less refined. Kidd as a foil does literally 0 work in this manner, it shows us nothing new or exemplifies anything about Luffy.

You've basically simplified the idea of a foil down to the point where it literally has 0 meaning here.



You're completely missing the point of a foil here. In their comparison we learn nothing about either character, the whole point of a foil is to advance our understanding of the things being foiled.

Well, we could interpret it as Kidd is ruthless and Luffy is kind. Law is patient; Luffy is impatient. But I don't find that very interesting and at that point every character could be a foil, so I don't see a point.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Theories of Kidd being just a jobber make me sad. He's one of the best Anti-Luffy's out there due to being in a similar position, except without giving any fucks, and I'm just a big fan of foils as narrative devices. Seeing him taken down like this would just be disappointing.

You're probably the biggest Kidd fanboy ever Veelk

 

[B-Dubs]

Well, we could interpret it as Kidd is ruthless and Luffy is kind. Law is patient; Luffy is impatient. But I don't find that very interesting and at that point every character could be a foil, so I don't see a point.

If we're going to simplify it that far down the term loses all meaning though.

Well, as dabig pointed out, Shakky specifically drew the comparison to Kidd and Luffy because she didn't like how vicious he was. So same thing as Blackbeard, Kidd makes Luffy look more noble. It's literally becomes the basis of a plotpoint if it's the reason that Shakky decides to help out Luffy.

dabig also misses the point of a foil by simplifying it down to the point where everyone is a foil for everyone else. Just because a comparison is drawn doesn't mean the two characters are a foil.

 

[Veelk]

You're probably the biggest Kidd fanboy ever Veelk

I mean, I don't doubt that's true. And it's not even like I'm a big fan of the character, or like the character for a particularly deep reason or anything.

But if there is anyone I see worth rooting for in OP, it's him. It's just that's not a high bar to set.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Well, as dabig pointed out, Shakky specifically drew the comparison to Kidd and Luffy because she didn't like how vicious he was. So same thing as Blackbeard, Kidd makes Luffy look more noble. It's literally becomes the basis of a plotpoint if it's the reason that Shakky decides to help out Luffy.

Even I agree, what's the point of having two characters make Luffy more noble? Big Mom takes people's life force. Kaido slaughters entire cities/islands with his crew. How is Kidd unique? There is something unique about BB. But not Kidd. Every single one of these enemies show Luffy is noble. That's Luffy's entire MO - the noble pirate. How does this make Kidd special?

 

[B-Dubs]

Even I agree, what's the point of having two characters make Luffy more noble? Big Mom takes people's life force. Kaido slaughters entire cities/islands with his crew. How is Kidd unique? There is something unique about BB. But not Kidd. Every single one of these enemies show Luffy is noble. That's Luffy's entire MO - the noble pirate. How does this make Kidd special?

To be fair I vastly simplified the point of Blackbeard as Luffy's foil and what that comparison accomplishes. In acting as a foil for Luffy we learn a massive amount about him as a character in terms of his actions and what to expect from him as the story continues. Blackbeard as a foil not only highlights Luffy, but the shadows Luffy creates fill in Blackbeard's character for us the reader. So even though we've only really encountered him a few times, we already have a very good idea what to expect from him as the story continues.

 

[TheGreatDirector]

Urouge is the true foil and rival to Luffy.