• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

One Piece Manga |OT2| Four Emperors, One King, All Blue

Status
Not open for further replies.

Veelk

Banned
We are not suppose to take a lot of stuff in the manga literally .
Also when was it said if Nami got fake married the crew would lose her ?

2vDN9IU.png


Right there. Probably before as well, but this is something Nami herself sees as legitimate.

Also, if we're not suppose to take this stuff literally, which I didn't because I am reading it as a rape analogy. If you have another subtextual interpretation of what it is, I'd love to hear it.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Well, I'd love to see you explain how the basic premise of Nami's storyline makes any sense whatsoever if we take it literally. Connect the dots explaining how Absol performing a faux marraige ceremony and kissing an unconcious nami would lead to the crew losing Nami in any way. Because his kiss, officiating the marriage, is looked on as a timer that would resolve the conflict in his favor.

2vDN9IU.png


That right there is laying out the set up and the stakes of the conflict. The kiss seals the deal. If Nami is a wife, she cannot go on adventures. How in the fuck would this ever make sense if taken literally.

You realize that she got kidnapped right? Unless she escaped or was rescued she wasn't going anywhere as a result.

Again, in your example SHE WAS KIDNAPPED BY A CRAZY PERSON.
 
2vDN9IU.png


Right there. Probably before as well, but this is something Nami herself sees as legitimate.

Also, if we're not suppose to take this stuff literally, which I didn't because I am reading it as a rape analogy. If you have another subtextual interpretation of what it is, I'd love to hear it.

You do know she was kidnapped right ?
How can she go on adventures if she is kidnapped and becomes his wife .
You think after he married her he is going to let her go freely around ?
 
You realize that she got kidnapped right? Unless she escaped or was rescued she wasn't going anywhere as a result.

Again, in your example SHE WAS KIDNAPPED BY A CRAZY PERSON.

The crazy person isn't actually saying that though; Nami herself is. I think the point stands that "wives/mothers can't adventure."
 

Veelk

Banned
You realize that she got kidnapped right? Unless she escaped or was rescued she wasn't going anywhere as a result.

Again, in your example SHE WAS KIDNAPPED BY A CRAZY PERSON.

Then why is the kiss meaningful? I mean, there is specific tension centered around getting Nami rescued BEFORE she is kissed, not after.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Then why is the kiss meaningful? I mean, there is specific tension centered around getting Nami rescued BEFORE she is kissed, not after.

Maybe she doesn't want to be kissed by the crazy person who kidnapped her? That doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.

The crazy person isn't actually saying that though; Nami herself is. I think the point stands that "wives/mothers can't adventure."

In that panel she's trying to reason with a crazy person. You're taking it out of the context of the story.
 

Veelk

Banned
Maybe she doesn't want to be kissed by a crazy person who kidnapped her?

No shit, but the point is that the kiss officiates the wedding. That is literally the objection that Nami is making in the panel I cite. "I'm not ready for (marraige), I still want to adventure". Implying that after the kiss, she wouldn't be able to.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
No shit, but the point is that the kiss officiates the wedding. That is literally the objection that Nami is making in the panel I cite. "I'm not ready for (marraige), I still want to adventure". Implying that after the kiss, she wouldn't be able to.

Again, she's trying to reason with her insane kidnapper. You're removing the context of the scene to make your point.
 
Maybe she doesn't want to be kissed by a crazy person who kidnapped her?



In that panel she's trying to reason with a crazy person. You're taking it out of the context of the story.

This feels like a much more abstract reading than what's on the page.

It's fine if a series is problematic. People go really overboard with this series even though it's pretty clearly stuck in the "Comics are for boys, no girls allowed" era. One Piece is the manga equivalent of a Western company like Marvel not making female heroes (or badly handling their associated products). This is all pretty clear, and it doesn't mean you can't like these things (I do).

I mean, the converse is that One Piece is actually a very empowering series for women, and it sends a strong, modern message through its female characters. Does that really sound on the mark? It's just about laughable to me.
 
No shit, but the point is that the kiss officiates the wedding. That is literally the objection that Nami is making in the panel I cite. "I'm not ready for (marraige), I still want to adventure". Implying that after the kiss, she wouldn't be able to.

How would she able to ?
After he married her you think he going to let her go around freely ?
He kidnapped her for a reason .
So that she can become queen of the graveyard .

I mean kidnapping someone is taking away part of there freedom to begin with .
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
This feels like a much more abstract reading than what's on the page.

It's fine if a series is problematic. People go really overboard with this series even though it's pretty clearly stuck in the "Comics are for boys, no girls allowed" era. One Piece is the manga equivalent of a Western company like Marvel not making female heroes (or badly handling their associated products). This is all pretty clear, and it doesn't mean you can't like these things (I do).

I mean, the converse is that One Piece is actually a very empowering series for women, and it sends a strong, modern message through its female characters. Does that really sound on the mark? It's just about laughable to me.

How is "she's trying to reason with an insane kidnapper who wants to marry her" abstract? It's literally what's happening in the story at that point! Go look at the chapter as a whole!

Context is king, people. You can't just take things out of context to make a point.
 

Veelk

Banned
How is "she's trying to reason with an insane kidnapper who wants to marry her" abstract? It's literally what's happening in the story at that point! Go look at the chapter as a whole!

Context is king, people. You can't just take things out of context to make a point.

If Nami is trying to reason for her kidnapper to let her go by appealing to his respect for her to allow her to act on her own desires and agency when she literally just woke up to him trying to have married her and kissed her while she's unconcious, then she's kind of stupid.

But here's the thing I'm getting at: Do you think she's lying? That she's trying to make up some kind of...idk, situation where he'll let her go?

She's not reasoning with him. She is just shouting her objections to him. She doesn't want to kiss him because if she kisses him, she'll be his bride, and if she's his bride, she can't go on adventures.

If that's somehow a lie, it's a stupid one, because why in the flying fuck would he give a shit about her wanting to have adventures if he's already willing to go this far? It makes no sense why she'd say this with the belief that it might convince him to let her go.

Also, Absol isn't insane, he's just someone with no respect for others will. That's not irrationality, that's just a lack of basic decency.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
There's been plenty of pretty girls who end up as complete jerks. Ms. Valentine, Kalifa, Monet, etc.

I think the best examples are actually the nameless women in Bellamy's Jaya crew who laugh at and mock Luffy and Zoro
 
Sanji is depicted as noble in various instances, and I can agree those in many senses, the recent one with how Sanji protected Cosette....but idealogy is one I find pretty reprehensible. If the argument was that Sanji protects Cosette because she's an innocent in Nij's childish tantrum, fine. But he's protecting her because she's a woman, first and foremost. And yeah, that's just not something I agree with.

Sanji is my favorite Strawhat, but I can't fault your issues with him. I know there is a number of female fans who have the same issues with him. Oda does take Sanji's shtick a bit too far sometimes and, while I'm sure he doesn't mean for it come off as it does, there are unfortunate implication to aspects of his character.
 
If Nami is trying to reason for her kidnapper to let her go by appealing to his respect for her to allow her to act on her own desires and agency when she literally just woke up to him trying to have married her and kissed her while she's unconcious, then she's kind of stupid.

But here's the thing I'm getting at: Do you think she's lying? That she's trying to make up some kind of...idk, situation where he'll let her go?

She's not reasoning with him. She is just shouting her objections to him. She doesn't want to kiss him because if she kisses him, she'll be his bride, and if she's his bride, she can't go on adventures.

If that's somehow a lie, it's a stupid one, because why in the flying fuck would he give a shit about her wanting to have adventures if he's already willing to go this far? It makes no sense why she'd say this with the belief that it might convince him to let her go.

Also, Absol isn't insane, he's just someone with no respect for others will. That's not irrationality, that's just a lack of basic decency.

So kidnapping someone cause you can't find a bride .
Then getting married to them in there sleep and forcing them to becoming queen of the graveyard .
Is not the act of crazy person or need mental help ?

Since when having no respect or basic decency mean it okay to kidnapped people .
 

Veelk

Banned
So kidnapping someone cause you can't find a bride .
Then getting married to them in there sleep and forcing them to becoming queen of the graveyard .
Is not the act of crazy person or need mental help ?

No more crazy than most of one piece's cast, no. I mean, again, all the characters seem to agree that the marriage would be official. Sanji objective was to prevent the marriage from happening.

9EJhxou.png
P0jQCR0.png


If Absol's plan is really insane in the way you describe it, no one would even recognize it as a marriage. No one would care if Nami gets kissed before Sanji gets there. Nami wouldn't make that 'lie' to try and save herself.

It's crazy in our context, but the world of OP is crazy and while everyone acknowledges that what Absolam does is vile, no one seems to imply that what he does is illegitimate.

Since when having no respect or basic decency mean it okay to kidnapped people .

What in the fu...how do you even get that from...

No, what I'm saying is that Absolam isn't insane in the sense that he's irrational or can't be reasoned with. You can be perfectly rational and still a vile person who violates others. The thing is, if Absolam did what he did in real life, he WOULD be considered irrational, because no one would recognize what he does as marriage. But somehow, it IS recognized as such, by both Sanji and Nami. That means however vile he may be, what he's attempting to do seems to be a legitimate course of action in OP's world, in which case, it's not insanity.
 
No more crazy than most of one piece's cast, no. I mean, again, all the characters seem to agree that the marriage would be official. Sanji objective was to prevent the marriage from happening.

9EJhxou.png


If Absol's plan is really insane in the way you describe it, no one would even recognize it as a marriage. No one would care if Nami gets kissed before Sanji gets there. Nami wouldn't make that 'lie' to try and save herself.

It's crazy in our context, but the world of OP is crazy and while everyone acknowledges that what Absolam does is vile, no one seems to imply that what he does is illegitimate.

I don't think most of the cast care as much or though it was legitimate as sanji to begin with .
He was getting angry as hell and the others were like he has issues .
I sure Nami cares about someone kissing her when she don't want to .

Also nami is trying to save her self because getting married to him mean she has to stay there .
Her thinking is if she can get out of it she can leave , which we all know not going to happen cause Absolam crazy .
Also we all know that Sanji crazy in certain ways even going by the OP world .
 
Tendencies in motherhood isn't a biological function, it's a social/psychological one. There is no hormone that makes you raise a kid a certain way, or even care about a kid. You can probably find evidence that many mothers find their kids doing something like talking for the first time indeed gives their brains a good ole seratonin blast, but that alone is too vague and broad to draw meaningful conclusions from. Lots of things give you brain a seratonin rush. If you have studies that talk about this, feel free to let me know and I'll go over them, but social norms are often used as to try to make sense of biological functions, but rarely are they anything close to comprehensive.

You're very, very wrong, as someone who is studying this stuff. I will send studies when I get some time if you really want to read them.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Sanji isn't meant to be noble, per say, when it comes to women. From his own point of view he is, but he's a walking extreme representation of classic chivalry, right down to his gentleman's attire. Classiv chivalry is very flawed and this is actually why I think 80% of the women in the series shun him. However, just like in real life, there are some who like the attention. Girls at Whiskey Peak or Fishman Island, for example.
 

Veelk

Banned
I don't think most of the cast care as much as sanji to begin with .
He was getting angry as hell and the others were like he has issues .
I sure Nami cares about someone kissing her when she don't want to .

Also nami is trying to save her self because getting married to him mean she has to stay there .
Her thinking is if she can get out of it she can leave , which we all know not going to happen cause Absolam crazy .
Also we all know that Sanji crazy in certain ways even going by the OP world .

This is basically an argument of reduction, trying to make generalities when I'm describing specific plot presentation and specific character reactions. The kiss functions as a ticking clock of sorts to when the marriage is officiated. That's part of what the tension of the scene relies on, and still doesn't explain why NAMI HERSELF would confirm the sentiment that if she gets kissed, then she's completely trapped.

You're very, very wrong, as someone who is studying this stuff. I will send studies when I get some time if you really want to read them.

PM me about it, since it's not necessarily relevant to the broader discussion here. I'm interested in what research you have.

She doesn't say it.

Veelk this is not the first time you've based an argument on a fan translation.

Because I don't see it as greatly dissuading me from my point here. I mean, do you really think that she has to literally say "If I am married, I will not be able to be a pirate." By and large, a translation has to mostly just be good enough to convey the general idea.

"I'm not ready to settle down yet" still works to say that if he does kiss her, she'd have to settle down. I'm kind of not sure what you think this has changed about the statement of my argument here.

And even if not, Sanji's dialogue still show little regard for her as a person vs his regard for her as an object of beauty. At one point, he threw her down away from him, stating that he can't risk staining her dress with his blood, and his outrage is largely based around Absol having been a better peeper than him by seeing her in the bath.
 
This is basically an argument of reduction, trying to make generalities when I'm describing specific plot presentation and specific character reactions. The kiss functions as a ticking clock of sorts to when the marriage is officiated. That's part of what the tension of the scene relies on, and still doesn't explain why NAMI HERSELF would confirm the sentiment that if she gets kissed, then she's completely trapped.

And it seem i was right .
If we go by Tathanen pic she used settle down .
Which mean she did not want to stay there , so her thinking was she would be trap .
 
I don't think Sanji would recognize the marriage as legitimate, he was pissed off at the very idea that someone intended to forcibly marry Nami.
 

Veelk

Banned
"Okay, but I'm not wrong!"

Well, I'm not! I don't really see why people are treating this as some kind of mic drop refutation.

Before the Viz translation image, my argument was that her objection to Absol's kiss is because she doesn't want to be a housewife yet.

Now that the Viz translation image is up...that is still what she is saying, just worded as "I'm not ready to settle down yet" rather than "I still want to go on adventures."

I don't see a significant difference here.

I don't think Sanji would recognize the marriage as legitimate, he was pissed off at the very idea that someone intended to forcibly marry Nami.

*sigh*

Honestly, okay, whatever. I actually didn't want to get into a long debate over this, and it's already gone on too long, so I'm just gonna drop it here.

Your interpretation is a valid one, I guess. I don't take that interpretation, but if you want to be EXTREMLELY favorable to Sanji, then you can just interpret his outrage at the violation of Nami's will and consent to be unsaid or subtextual while he verbally voices his outrage at being outpeeped.

But for me, there are multiple instances of Sanji putting women's appearance over their personhood. This was just the worst example, but it's pretty consistent in his characterization. And now, here he is, getting mad about the idea of Nami being married, and we're just supposed to infer it's because of how disgusted he is at the violention of will and consent while he proudly states how he wanted his DF so he could peep on women without their knowledge or consent and when he denounces that desire, he frames it as "I will peep on my own!" (Tat, feel free to offer the different wording of the Viz version that conveys the same idea if you want).

If you want to be nice to Sanji and just give him the benefit of the doubt, fine, but that's just not what I see in him.
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
She's saying she doesn't want to be married. "Settled down" has a wide variety of meanings, it could easily mean "I do not want to be tied to one man." It's basically just "I am not interested in the stability afforded by marriage." It has nothing to do with being a "housewife."
 
Well, I'm not! I don't really see why people are treating this as some kind of mic drop refutation.

Before the Viz translation image, my argument was that her objection to Absol's kiss is because she doesn't want to be a housewife yet.

Now that the Viz translation image is up...that is still what she is saying, just worded as "I'm not ready to settle down yet" rather than "I still want to go on adventures."

I don't see a significant difference here.

Either way In her mind being married mean she has to stay there or with him .
So she trying to get out of it .
 

Veelk

Banned
She's saying she doesn't want to be married. "Settled down" has a wide variety of meanings, it could easily mean "I do not want to be tied to one man." It's basically just "I am not interested in the stability afforded by marriage." It has nothing to do with being a "housewife."

That's a very liberal interpretation to it.

Usually, when I hear that phrase, I take it to mean "I'm not ready to commit to a kind of life shared with someone else" or "I'm not ready to change my life in that way yet"

And I have no idea how "Stability afforded by marriage" even makes sense in the context of the OP quote. To paraphrase, she's saying "Stop, don't kiss me, I don't want my life to be stable yet"?

That doesn't make much sense to me. Okay, with that, I'm done with this convo. Enjoy the rest of your day, everyone!
 
He doesn't view women as people, but more like objects of pleasure.

No, he recognizes Nami's talent as a navigator:

sanji4_zpsebgl7ngt.png


sanji6_zpsb94nz7jd.png


And compliment her kindness when saving Caimie:

prova4_zps7ywl39vk.png



And the children in Punk Hazard:

16.3_zpsqctkfzbp.png


If he saw women as a mere sex object, he wouldn't care about if they can navigate a ship or if they are compassionate people.

He recognizes Cosette's skill as a chef:

tumblr_odhukjLg8N1uobutdo1_500.png


He’s not swooning over her like he usually does over women, but nor is there any sympathy in his eyes for the poor girl who’s being unjustly mistreated. You can tell that in this moment, Sanji is treating her not as a delicate lady who should be protected but as a fellow chef, and is giving her his earnest appreciation of her cooking skills.


If they please him visually, then not only does he immediately assign virtues to them that based on that alone (remember, the only reason he found out Violet was a good girl in Dressrosa is because "I'll always trust a women's tears!"),

He didn't assign any virtue to Kalifa, Monet or Baby 5 despite finding them attractive.

The reason he found out Viola was good, was because of his intuition, there is nothing saying it was because she was pretty or that he wouldn't judge unattractive woman the same. You're make an assumption.


is unable to hit them even when they have irrefutably proven to be trying to hurt him and his friends, but he also doesn't give that same respect to women that aren't beautiful, whether we are talking about that mermaid from Dressrosa or the transexuals that train him who all identify as women (it's kind of weird there weren't any women who identify as men there, now that I think about it), whom he is willing to insult, attack, and otherwise has such a fear and hatred for them that they literally power his attacks after the time skip.

First, Sanji said he woudn't kick a woman, regardless if they are pretty or not. He never kicked any ugly woman in the series, so you are mistaken if you say he doesn't give that same respect to women that aren't beautiful.

Regarding the okamas, Sanji doesn't have any problem with them. His first encounter with one of them was Bon Clay in Alabasta, and he treated him with respect. He isn't homophobic.

one-piece-1691181.jpg


In Kamabakka Kingdom, Sanji was harassed by all of them, by your logic, Sanji was a victim of sexual assault, but you have double standards. They forced him to wear a dress. Every hatred he has is a reaction to said assault. I'm sorry, that's how Oda decided to portrait them:

19.jpg




And it wouldn't be as bad if the series didn't go out of it's way to validate his beliefs. It's hard not to see the series reluctance to treat female combatants the same as men as not atleast associated with Sanji's belief that women should never be hit, no matter what kind of person they are. Because that's just it, they are a gender and sexual object first and a person second. More than any other character, Sanji embodies that.

That's your interpretation. Sanji never said the reason why he doesn't fight women is because they are weak or fragile, there is no single panel saying that. Yes, he idealizes women and say he loves all of them, that's why he protects them and doesn't harm them, because you protect what you love or belief. It's sexism, but it's not because Sanji treats them as object (dehumanizing), but because he puts them above all, he glorifies them.

And if you think I'm being overly negative in this, then I'll just cite you one specific moment that really broke the camels back for me with him. In Thriller Bark, Nami's entire storyline basically revolves around the idea that she is a sexual prize to be gotten. Absol basically wants to rape her. He actually wants to marry her, because if he was literally trying to rape her, then Oda wouldn't be able to keep the lighthearted, jokey tone of Absol wanting Nami, but that's basically what is happening. Because this plotline makes NO sense on a literal level. Like, lets say that Absol went through with the wedding and managed to land a kiss on Nami during the ceremony. Who the fuck would recognize that as official? Certainly not Nami, and even if somehow whatever unspecified church did officially recognize an unconcious woman being bonded to absol, she's a fucking pirate. She'll leave the moment she can. She's not gonna recognize any obligation to him, but somehow the final kiss is treated as some important thing taht if it happens, then Nami is lost to the crew forever. And when Sanji comes in to save her, do you know his reasoning for why he can't let Nami go? Because if Absol marries her, he won't be able to peep (sexually harass) her on the ship.

lol that's some pretty messed up reasoning. The kiss stuff is a sexual harassment, and any sane person wouldn't like to see one of the main characters being abused by a monster. There is nothing about some "farewell", the Strawhats wouldn't leave Thriller Bark without her, marrying or not like you said, it's a fake marriage. The reason Sanji saves her is because she is his nakama, he cares about her. You are making up stuff saying that he just wants to peep her, like he doesn't care about her feelings at all, any Strawhat would save each other because they are friends, stop this nonsense. And I'm pretty sure that Nami would appreciate what he did for her. Sanji wanting to peep women is something that is settled apart, Sanji even says: "and, it's really unlucky there is another connection between us." The devil fruit episode has nothing to do with the rescue.

If Absol trying to marry her is a rape analogy, then Sanji's stated reasoning isn't about saving her as a person, but rather saving her virginity. Otherwise, even if Absol succeed, no one would care. Sanji's not upset that Nami's body is being violated without her consent, he's upset that something is being taken away from him. The conflict isn't about losing a respected and beloved teammember, but about losing a walking vessel of softcore porn. That's the point where I went from disliking Sanji to outright hatred, and put OP down several more notches in the enjoyability department. Honesty, Thriller Bark isn't the most blatantly sexist part of OP, but it is the subtextually creepiest.

What the fuck is this? He obviously cares about her feelings:

10_zpseghdv72g.png


The guy remembered what Yosaku said two years ago about Jinbei releasing Arlong in East Blue. He confronts Jinbei and wants him to take responsability, if he didn't care about her, he wouldn't even remember such tings. Do I have to show what he did for Robin in Water 7? Saying that he views Nami or Robin as softcore porn is really insulting.

Sanji is depicted as noble in various instances, and I can agree those in many senses, the recent one with how Sanji protected Cosette....but idealogy is one I find pretty reprehensible. If the argument was that Sanji protects Cosette because she's an innocent in Nij's childish tantrum, fine. But he's protecting her because she's a woman, first and foremost. And yeah, that's just not something I agree with.

Anyone that knows Sanji knows that he cares about men. Don't be silly:

tumblr_od8vfp8uBQ1uobutdo1_400.jpg


tumblr_od8vfp8uBQ1uobutdo2_500.jpg


He tried to sacrifice himself in Zoro's place in Thriller Bark and left Nami behind to save him against Kuma in Sabaody, he saved Kinemon's body swimming in a frozen lake full of posion, only a few examples.
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
That's a very liberal interpretation to it.

Usually, when I hear that phrase, I take it to mean "I'm not ready to commit to a kind of life shared with someone else".

And I have no idea how "Stability afforded by marriage" even makes sense in the context of the OP quote. To paraphrase, she's saying "Stop, don't kiss me, I don't want my life to be stable yet"?

That doesn't make much sense to me. Okay, with that, I'm done with this convo. Enjoy the rest of your day, everyone!

Okay well bow out if you like, but "settle down" is an extremely common phrase used when discussing marriage. Men use it too, and they do not become "house husbands" implicitly.

There's also an exceedingly valid interpretation where the line itself is a gag. Nami providing a well reasoned response like "I'm not ready to settle down" to an absurd forced marriage to a lion man. No, Nami, it's not because you're not ready to settle down, you would not willingly get married in this situation if you were ready to settle down. Her straight-man objection to the absurdity of the situation is a pretty Oda kind of joke.
 

ffdgh

Member
Huh...manga wednesdays are back or something? Sanji's family being trash aside, can't wait for him to get his eventual payback with his eventual new power up.
 

Big One

Banned
While I think Sanji's backstory could be finished as soon as next chapter, I really think we're also going to see a Judge flashback. It might be how Oda introduces Vegapunk to the story. Maybe Judge's wife died in one of his experiments or something. I'm willing to bet Sanji was his wife's last input on the experiment: to create a normal child and not a warmonger like the others.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Also what is this nonsense about Sanji taking straight L's since the timeskip? That is clearly not true.


He has been taking straight L's since Kokoro broke his mind permanently.
 

Veelk

Banned
I just want to reply to Ganz. He clearly went out of his way to make a solid reply to my criticism, so I feel it'd be rude to just ignore him entirely just because he posted it at the time I decided to bow out. I won't reply to everything, but you'll get something.

Ganz, you're replying to several remarks I never made. I never said that sanji didn't appreciate Nami for her skills (though if you think the mere existence of some compliments are evidence of genuine appreciation, lol. What, you never heard a guy sweet talk a girl disingenuously or patronize her by being more impressed than he otherwise would be for a guy), or that he didn't remember things about their personality, or consider her feelings at all, or that he doesn't have any affection for his male crew members. You seem to think that being a sexist jerk renders a person incapable of giving out compliments, understanding personalities, or liking guys.

You can have and do all of that, and still be sexist as shit and do all the things I accused sanji of doing in Thriller Bark. I said he sees women only as genders and sex objects, but genders and sex objects first and foremost and people second. And he does. You're correct in all the examples, but I never denied they happened, just that they're just secondary to his primary interpretation of women as sex objects. It's the thing he notices first about them, the most he spends talking about. He still proudly talks about how he wants to peep at girls, and yeah, that's sexual harassment (one that is normalized by japan unfortunately) as well. So your not wrong, and I did mention that Sanji did have noble moments, but they all take a backseat to his primary personality which I find pretty detestable.
 
I just want to reply to Ganz. He clearly went out of his way to make a solid reply to my criticism, so I feel it'd be rude to just ignore him entirely just because he posted it at the time I decided to bow out. I won't reply to everything, but you'll get something.

Ganz, you're replying to several remarks I never made. I never said that sanji didn't appreciate Nami for her skills (though if you think the mere existence of some compliments are evidence of genuine appreciation, lol. What, you never heard a guy sweet talk a girl disingenuously or patronize her by being more impressed than he otherwise would be for a guy), or that he didn't remember things about their personality, or consider her feelings at all, or that he doesn't have any affection for his male crew members. You seem to think that being a sexist jerk renders a person incapable of giving out compliments, understanding personalities, or liking guys.

You can have and do all of that, and still be sexist as shit and do all the things I accused sanji of doing in Thriller Bark. I said he sees women as genders and sex objects first and foremost, and people second. And he does. You're correct in all the examples, but I never denied they happened, just that they're just secondary to his primary interpretation of women as sex objects. It's the thing he notices first about them, the most he spends talking about. He still proudly talks about how he wants to peep at girls, and yeah, that's sexual harassment (one that is normalized by japan unfortunately) as well. So your not wrong, and I did mention that Sanji did have noble moments, but they all take a backseat to his primary personality which I find pretty detestable.
Okay, I appreciate this response. I thought you were saying he didn't consider women's feelings at all and they were all sex objects to him. He isn't a perfect character, but he does feel empathy towards men and women, perhaps more than the rest. I agree that he is a pervert and sexist, but that also dwells with the good things that make up his character.

It's perfectly fine to dislike him for that but I thought you were being unfair.

You have a critical view towards One Piece and I respect that, despite joking about the wasting food episode. But sometimes it feels like you are searching for things to complain about, and in this case you are bashing the character, trying to rationalize something that looks to me like simple preference. There are characters we don't simply like, despite all the efforts the author does to make them likeable. Like I said, Sanji can be crucified for being a pervert and sexist, but this episode in Thriller Bark, it's clearly Sanji trying to save a person he likes from a kidnapping, despite all the lust he feels, he does care about her and all his friends in the end, and I'm glad that you agree with that.
 

Veelk

Banned
I have a question about the Viz Translation thing.

I know that it's broadly accepted to be the best translation group (not just of OP, but of mangas in general), but when did that actually start, because I remember back in the day, people didn't like Viz because they tried to americanize much of the language. I don't know how true that is, so I'm asking.
 
I have a question about the Viz Translation thing.

I know that it's broadly accepted to be the best translation group (not just of OP, but of mangas in general), but when did that actually start, because I remember back in the day, people didn't like Viz because they tried to americanize much of the language. I don't know how true that is, so I'm asking.
As far as I know they have "official" status by part of the fanbase. I don't know a thing about Japanese but there are many times that I have the impression some fansubs are doing a more complete translation.
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
I have a question about the Viz Translation thing.

I know that it's broadly accepted to be the best translation group (not just of OP, but of mangas in general), but when did that actually start, because I remember back in the day, people didn't like Viz because they tried to americanize much of the language. I don't know how true that is, so I'm asking.

I'm not sure I'd say they "americanized" things, but they definitely "pirated it up" early on. People drank grog, were scurvy dogs, etc. I actually kinda liked it, despite its inaccuracy. But they stopped doing it eventually. I... don't remember when, though.
 

Veelk

Banned
As far as I know they have "official" status by part of the fanbase. I don't know a thing about Japanese but there are many times that I have the impression some fansubs are doing a more complete translation.

I'm not sure I'd say they "americanized" things, but they definitely "pirated it up" early on. People drank grog, were scurvy dogs, etc. I actually kinda liked it, despite its inaccuracy. But they stopped doing it eventually. I... don't remember when, though.

So the actual quality of the translations was always the same, slight piratization aside? I ask because there was one scanlation that specifically started because they didn't like how Viz translation translated a lot of the early volumes, but apparently Viz is the best nowadays, so I'm just trying to get the story straight.

Also, I'm thinking of rereading Naruto (and if you think I don't like One Piece, hoo boy...), but I'm trying to decide if I should go for fan translations or what.
 
So the actual quality of the translations was always the same, slight piratization aside? I ask because there was one scanlation that specifically started because they didn't like how Viz translation translated a lot of the early volumes, but apparently Viz is the best nowadays, so I'm just trying to get the story straight.

Also, I'm thinking of rereading Naruto (and if you think I don't like One Piece, hoo boy...), but I'm trying to decide if I should go for fan translations or what.

Do you like Sasuke?
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
So the actual quality of the translations was always the same, slight piratization aside? I ask because there was one scanlation that specifically started because they didn't like how Viz translation translated a lot of the early volumes, but apparently Viz is the best nowadays, so I'm just trying to get the story straight.

Also, I'm thinking of rereading Naruto (and if you think I don't like One Piece, hoo boy...), but I'm trying to decide if I should go for fan translations or what.

You should always go official if you can. Also, early One Piece fan translations were straight garbage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom