gundamkyoukai
Member
Truth is luffy don't even wear shirts that much and they have to be open .
So him having one tied around his waist seem more out of character than a sash .
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One Piece Manga |OT2| Four Emperors, One King, All Blue
- Thread starter Cloud Strife
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Truth is luffy don't even wear shirts that much and they have to be open .
So him having one tied around his waist seem more out of character than a sash .
Principate
Saint Titanfall
But it's a pirate manga about piratey things. Still though Strong World is still Luffy'a best outfit and I don't think it can be beat.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Strong World is exactly why I don't reject the idea that Luffy can't wear pants.
gundamkyoukai
Member
We all know it was the coat that made him look awesome ( also my fav luffy outfit )
No need for a sash if you have that .
You got that right lol
Anyways ontopic, i think almost all of the pre timeskip designs were better.
I prefer luffy zoro nami chopper robin and franky pre timeskip.
Sanji and brook are cool both pre and post timeskip
Usopp i actually prefer now
Also
#teamshanks
#blackbearddeservesdeath
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
gundamkyoukai
Member
The girls need there time to shine in one on one fights again .
Still storyline wise Luffy not becoming PK without them and they do a lot of stuff plot wise .
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Ugh this thread is at its worst when people try to overcompensate after a Veelk fight and make it about the most superficial gamefaqs-tier pap.
Anyway I bought the dressrosa volumes and have been makin my way through em. I think this is really the apex of me thinking "ugh oda" when it comes to the representation of women, and it boils down to the Franky/Senor Pink fight, and the SBS. I really feel like that fight is almost author-insertion, based on the garbage he's been spewing in the SBS (and volume notes) during this arc. Just constant minimization of women and glorification of men. Twice in these volumes he's drawn gender-swapped characters in the SBS, which is fine on its own, if not for the fact that the little quote he has every single one of them say is the most gender-normative hyper-feminine garbage imaginable. It's all about fashion, cooking, makeup, cuteness. "Ha ha he's a woman now, so his brain is reduced to mush."
And then we have Franky forcibly kiss a woman to shut her up (and obviously she immediately starts blubbering and falls in love with him), which is cited as the only appropriate thing to do in "a man's fight." I get that these are joke characters acting like "perverts" but it is played WAY too straight, with basically zero mockery or derision from the supporting cast. To the contrary, all of the surrounding women support and are infatuated with them for being such disgusting fucks.
I love so much else of what's going on beyond these elements, and if I could rationalize it as just an isolated microcosm in the universe surrounding these two characters that might be one thing, but when it's basically "SBS Oda" personified, it really lessens my opinion of him as an author. I wish I could death-of-the-author this shit like Veelk does sometimes.
Anyway I bought the dressrosa volumes and have been makin my way through em. I think this is really the apex of me thinking "ugh oda" when it comes to the representation of women, and it boils down to the Franky/Senor Pink fight, and the SBS. I really feel like that fight is almost author-insertion, based on the garbage he's been spewing in the SBS (and volume notes) during this arc. Just constant minimization of women and glorification of men. Twice in these volumes he's drawn gender-swapped characters in the SBS, which is fine on its own, if not for the fact that the little quote he has every single one of them say is the most gender-normative hyper-feminine garbage imaginable. It's all about fashion, cooking, makeup, cuteness. "Ha ha he's a woman now, so his brain is reduced to mush."
And then we have Franky forcibly kiss a woman to shut her up (and obviously she immediately starts blubbering and falls in love with him), which is cited as the only appropriate thing to do in "a man's fight." I get that these are joke characters acting like "perverts" but it is played WAY too straight, with basically zero mockery or derision from the supporting cast. To the contrary, all of the surrounding women support and are infatuated with them for being such disgusting fucks.
I love so much else of what's going on beyond these elements, and if I could rationalize it as just an isolated microcosm in the universe surrounding these two characters that might be one thing, but when it's basically "SBS Oda" personified, it really lessens my opinion of him as an author. I wish I could death-of-the-author this shit like Veelk does sometimes.
gundamkyoukai
Member
They were not acting like perverts .
The whole fight base on the stereotypes of a man being a real man old school thinking .
It's the reason why Senor Pink so funny as a character.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Franky calls Senor a pervert at the start of the fight (and is called one in turn by Senor's flunkies), and they follow up their hard-boiled "man's fight" dialog with "diaper bomb" and "nipple laser" panels, it's clearly a gag. But none of that really affects my critique.
gundamkyoukai
Member
The whole character and fight is a gag .
I can understand you don't like it but saying Oda playing too straight don't make any sense .
I mean the character is wearing a diaper and has a baby mouth guard and he suppose to be a man among men .
Women and men liking him and calling him awesome it all part of the gag .
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
I know, his whole character is a gag. Until we get his tragic backstory explaining his outfit, but not explaining his womanizing. But ya know what, if it was just him, I'd be fine with it. He's a villain, he's allowed to be scum. But the real problem here is Franky, and that kiss. It's really not a good look for him. Particularly his "women should shut up" sentiment. This is a Straw Hat, I expect better.
But the REAL real problem is with Oda. These are just characters, they could be written to be whatever way, but when Oda acts that way constantly in the SBS I no longer process it as just a character quirk. It's a lucid glimpse into the man writing the manga, and I don't like what I see.
Honest question, because we've disagreed around this topic before:
Does it bother you more that you have evidence of Oda being sexist or that his sexist perceptions will potentially influence his audience to think like him?
gundamkyoukai
Member
Don't think would i call senor pink a womanizer .
If i remember right he was not acting like he like or love the women around him .
If anything there more like groupies .
Also you do know you are saying franky should act better towards a woman who was trying to kill him right ?
Plus then he won't be able to get the whole kiss gag which i found funny.
As for Oda it look like he still has certain Japanese gender roles\ stereotypes in his mind when comes to his SBS and women .
Still in SBS he did say that all men love big boobs which also a stereotype for men .
I won't really take what he says in a SBS that serious most of the time.
For eg here is a SBS talking about Senor pink .
EDIT i should note that his gender swap with Warlords did not have any of that really .
Damn right!
I'll be laughing when the day comes luffy kicks his ass because there's no way around it 😆 it's going to be beautiful!
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Ha! Luffy needs another time skip
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Pirate King Luffy has got to look something like this.me like
Oda'll probably pull a Naruto and do one for the ending.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Ussop gold outfit is better than anyone else.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Primarily, it's disappointment in him for not being who I'd "want" him to be. Obviously we're not buddies, him and I, but it's like if I found out someone I was pals with voted for Donald Trump. It colors my perception of them in a way that makes it hard for me to take anything else they do seriously. And when I like One Piece as a whole as much as I do, it kinda starts to undermine that fandom fundamentally.
I've also got a daughter now, and when I think about her reading my volumes at some point in the future I imagine her reading some of the stuff he's said in these SBS, and reading scenes like this Franky fight, and wondering what she'll think about it. Will she feel like she's being excluded? Like this world isn't for her? Like she would be lesser in it? Its status as a manga "for kids" kinda makes me feel like sure, there's a bit of social responsibility in here, which I wouldn't traditionally care much about, but my current situation is making me think more about.
"Womanizer" may be the wrong word, but he sure grabbed that woman's bra off to wipe his face, and has made statements denigrating women as a whole.
I know he goofs around in SBS constantly, but it's a matter of trends. He plays a sexually addled creep all the time, doubling down even in response to people that are attempting critique. I mean hey, he's playing a character, maybe I have no concept of the "real" Oda whatsoever. But I do feel like some of it is in there.
Of course they did, they were the example I was referring to. Moria is the only one that didn't really, the rest were all highly stereotyped.
I think many people see fandom like you do. I did too when I was younger, since it feels like it's intuitive kind of reaction. Art is an human expression, and if you like the expression being made, then there has to be some kind of personal connection between author and fan, right? And I've felt that sting of betrayal when an author I defended did something I thought they and I were on the same page on. So, it's not like I don't get it. But, you have to admit, it's irrational to some extent to think like this. In your own words, you admit that you are not buddies while in the same breath you characterize your feelings as reflecting exactly that. Meanwhile, the reality is that Oda has no idea you even exist as an individual. So how can one hold him to that standard?
I don't remember precisely when I started believing in death of the author, but I feel it was atleast influenced by feeling something like this, and when I tried to trace the logic back to find an explanation, I realized how little it made sense to do so. Now, it's just intuitive for me to read things with the knowledge that no matter how much an author's work may resonate with me, I have no connection with them, and that's just a fact. And I'm not trying to convert you or anything, I'm just reflecting on what your saying here. When you lay it all out, it just reinforces to me why this isn't a good mindset to have. No matter how I parse it, it just feels inherently irrational.
That's basically what I've been saying the whole time. Once you gain enough empathy to consider... really consider.... what it's like to read something like this from the perspective of someone whose on the receiving end of the exclusion stick, it's something that becomes harder and harder to just dismiss as a non-issue. And One Piece is hardly the worst of it. It's never been a call for censorship or anything, it's just....social awareness.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
What's wrong with discussing character designs exactly? Especially when my point about Nami "evolution" ties into Veelk's very argument?
I barely remember the Franky vs Senor Pink fight. I haven't picked up those Dressrosa volumes. Do you mind taking a pic of some of these quotes?
I've seen the gender swap.
Crocodile is now obsessed with astrology. Where the fuck did this come from? Mihawk, the worlds most renown swordsman now comments on how he looks. I lost a lot of respect of Oda a long time ago, but at this point I just don't think of him anymore while reading. I've had to separate my love for the comic and what Oda values as a human being, which unfortunately gels with the comic.
I think harking back to my point earlier, that the main reason for the change in Nami's design is Oda just gained more artistic freedom. That's my theory anyways. Early One Piece, he was constrained to his editors probably because it was a newer comic and he had to not rock the boat. But the more popular it got, the more freedom he gained, and the more he was able to influence. It seems pretty clear to me that that's how he went from the Nami of old to having her top burned off to an sex object.
At this point I just respect Oda as a creator and nothing more. It's pretty obvious that his worldview, which is further explained in the SBS sections, influences the comic in negative and harmful ways.
As for your daughter, I wouldn't allow her to read it until she's at least a teen but I would be wise to advise her that her worth is not represented by it, despite how much media works to influence us. I would also supplement it with a female positive manga instead. But let's be clear, you will be having discussions like this much, much earlier with her than before she's a teen. It's an inevitably.
Despite whatever issues One Piece has it still has a sizable female audience. That's not to say that makes it okay, but being a woman you'll be quick to get used to how women are portrayed in entertainment. You'd go crazy if you tried to find only entertainment that treats women on equal terms. For this reason, besides Dragon Ball and Jojo, One Piece is the only shounen I honestly consume. I've found other series in the genre to be gender regressive generally.
For that reason, the majority of my manga are josei or some form of seinen but even then I'm bound to run into problems. Like Yawara for example, or like I detailed in the Anime Feminist thread Kill La Kill. Even when a series stars a woman, it's not an automatic sign things are good. Learning to navigate media that portrays you in a positive light is a tough one but it's a very real fight. Women don't need someone to always explain what's wrong with a certain piece of entertainment. We deal with it every day.
Eh?
I mean, I've talked about that in the past and I obsessively agree, but I haven't talked about Nami's design at all this go around. I talked about her place in the story, her actions. I don't deny that her design changes reflect that to some extent, but it's something you brought into the discussion, not me.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to patronize you or anything.
My only point here is that I am a huge advocate for moving away from all that junk. As a consumer, my only power to do this is to criticize the things that contain this crap, and promote stuff that doesn't. So that's what I do.
And I'll have to admit the motivation is selfish too. I legitimately think that one piece would just be a better story without this crap. Like, it's hard to parse why, but I've come to realize that almost every story I read is better when it avoids the cultural poison well than if it didn't. It's not enough to make any story good if other factors are working against it, and like you say, it's not enough to ruin what you might otherwise love. But I've never seen it improve a work. So I also just want to see good art.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I said that. But it ties into how women are treated in One Piece, which is what you brought up earlier. But that's dismissed as gfaqs pap apparently.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
The issue is one of immersion. It's hard to immerse in the story when there are things that get in the way of enjoying it. I've been finishing up Star Trek Deep Space Nine and it's hard for me to break out of the immersion with that show because it treats everyone pretty much equal. But something like Star Trek TNG, which claims to be egalitarian, has Troi in awful "uniforms" that shows skin. She's a Starfleet officer who can't be assed to wear a proper uniform because they needed Sirtis to exude sexual energy for the fanbase - and probably Gene too. That takes you out of the story. So when One Piece has women pirates who exert their will over others, but somehow are treated in a less equitable manner than the male characters, it's going to stick out. My personal thing is if I like a story, I can't let it bother me. I like One Piece's story, so I have to brush my problems with it aside or there won't be any way for me to enjoy it. It's the same way I treat other media. For example, if I watch an old movie I like and they use faggot, I just have to remind myself that this movie is from another era with completely different values than me and to enjoy it for what it is and keep that criticism separate from the actual story itself.
Unfortunately for something like One Piece, which is not only modern, but also places this type of stuff not only in passing but also the actual storyline (Sanji in Nami's body for example) I can understand your dilemma. But it sometimes feels like you're beating a dead horse.
This is partly why I'm really enjoying the current arc: Sanji finally has actual use besides always being a disgusting shithead.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Sorry, I didn't mean the character design discussion, rather things like the quotes in here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=225282923&postcount=8594
I mean, yes, it's irrational, and probably not really healthy in situations like this. But I allow myself to have emotional connections to things, I don't really want to sanitize my enjoyment down to only logical considerations. If I'm attached, the highs are that much higher. The lows... well, yes.
This bit here is what I've been most bothered by: http://imgur.com/a/3RlVZ
Specifically Senor's comment in the bottom-right there, and the implication that Franky's on board with it. Also the "You'd better own up and be my boyfriend" line.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Wow. That official translation.
Uh..yeah.
Uh..yeah.
gundamkyoukai
Member
That could be the case but i don't read to much into most of them.
When it comes to people critique Oda seem not to care that much .
Unless the translation i read really wrong what is so stereotyped about some of them .
For eg female kuma ask the same thing he does when he is male .
BB female version say she has no facial hair which is making fun of her name .
If there is something about Señor Pink I remember it probably is how her fan girls screamed "hardboiled!" every time he said anything.
I think the idea is that he wanted to create a parody of the typical hardboiled, manly and often brash main characters that you may see in some old western media.
The problem is that said cultural element isn't his. So the chances that he fucks up or goes overboard are higher than it would be if it was an element he is used too.
I think I previously stated how I think Boa could be a parody of waifu culture. If you've watched some light novel anime adaptations you may see the similarities.
This could be a similar case. Bring an archetype, create a character, exaggerate certain traits as much as possible in order to create some comedy.
I personally didn't get offended by the scene. But I can see why other people may find it tasteless.
Just my 2 cents.
That's not an unreasonable way to go about it. For me, I wouldn't enjoy OP even if it didn't have the sexism issue for various other problems I find with it, but I can definitely see how you work that. For example, I actually liked Kill la Kill very much, though I can't make any excuses about it's objectification. Like you, I just have to acknowledge that it's there, it's a problem, and eat around it.
Still, I can't help but feel I don't actually go on about the sexism stuff nearly as much as people think. I often write up a general complaint or voice the sexist stuff as one complaint among several, and the conversation just naturally turns around that in particular. As much as people complain about it being a topic of conversation, a lot of people here like to defend One Piece on sexism more than any other point.
Tat, look at me. Look at what I do. Do you honestly think that I could be such a pedantic, obssessive asshole, writing some of the largest posts on gaf about not just One Piece but various movies, shows, books, and comics, if I didn't feel an intense passion about them?
If you're worried about losing your emotional connection, I assure you that you don't. There is rarely ever a real dichonomy that makes you choose between logic and emotion. You just don't contextualize experiencing a story as a journey of getting to know some person you've never actually met. You just view it as what it is, a journey.
This is the most puzzling part of this whole thing.
Though, I used to be big into wrestling in the late 80s/early 90s, and even though I don't watch any more, I still read reports on the current shows to keep up. So maybe it's like that?
Maybe? Idk, I never watched wrestling.
I mean so far as, I realized that I don't really enjoy it after a certain point because it's bad, and I actively know it's bad, but I'm curious enough to know where it goes that I try to keep up.
Sometimes stuff is so bad or wrong that it's one and done. Like someone once linked me to the manga adaptation of the girl in concrete. I'm honestly still surprised something like that even exists.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
I honestly doubt he put that much thought into that aspect of Boa. She's a very simple character. She has the theme of love and is considered to be one of the most beautiful women on the planet. She hates men as their all beasts who are attracted to her. She falls hopelessly and completely in love with the one man she can't have, the one man who doesn't find her particularly attractive. It's an extremely old trope a cruel irony that goes with her Greek theme. But that's really all there seems to be to the character. The fact she has have based the "waifu" aspects is really a by product of the base character archetype.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Yeah it's full of stereotypes and trope still i don't think Oda put much thought into these things .
I don't think he just decided to critizise waifu culture and its pandering. But Oda likes to make humour based on archetypes, so I kind of connected the dots. I agree that it could be just a consequence of the character he wanted to make.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Blackbeard, fair. Moria I honestly don't really understand. But the rest:
Crocodile: I don't trust anyone or anything... except for horoscopes!
Jimbei: Your words are touching... my hot bod!
Doflamingo: It's time... for the cake buffet to begin.
Mihawk: Strive to surpass my beauty.
Kuma: So hey, if you had paid vacation time, where would you go?
Kuma's, eh, women more interested in planning vacations? But the rest, yikes.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I don't really see what is wrong with what croc saying she believes in divination.
You do know that both luffy and BB just leave things up to fate .
Plus this is a Japanese manga and reading of the stars is not a female thing .
There is whole sub section of fiction that base around that .
Jimbei i agree with you .
Don Oda is making fun of the line Don say in the manga but it does use a stereotype.
Same for mihawk .
As i said for Kuma it's the same line he use when he meet Perona .
He used more stereotypes than i thought looking at it so i will admit i was wrong there .
But i guess i am looking it more from a character perspective than a female stereotype one.
So question comes down to how funny or tasteless you find how Oda use stereotypes for comedy.
You just figured that out?
gundamkyoukai
Member
Not75Drops
Member
Chapter is out.
That box is gonna go boom.
I wonder who Lola was supposed to marry.
That box is gonna go boom.
I wonder who Lola was supposed to marry.
Luffy with that savagery. If Big Mom really wanted the title so bad, she would have gotten it by now. I wonder if Big Mom will get an indepth backstory, I mean she is one of the more important characters in the greater scope of the series.
Things are about to go wild. Chopper enacting his plan, Brook invading the castle, Pedro being a decoy. Even if Luffy is tied up, things will still go crazy.
Yeah, Lola's groom-to-be must have been part of a big family if they could help Big Mom take down the other Emperors. Either that or she's exaggerating.
Things are about to go wild. Chopper enacting his plan, Brook invading the castle, Pedro being a decoy. Even if Luffy is tied up, things will still go crazy.
Yeah, Lola's groom-to-be must have been part of a big family if they could help Big Mom take down the other Emperors. Either that or she's exaggerating.
nelsonroyale
Member
She is probably exaggerating, but I wonder who it could be...Can't think of any family that could give that sort of power...
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