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One Piece Manga |OT2| Four Emperors, One King, All Blue
- Thread starter Cloud Strife
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Principate
Saint Titanfall
I somehow doubt that, I mean Nami has gone through something similar and even taking that into account she feels that regardless Sanji went too far. (Which she's arguably right on it's not like Sanji needed to beat Luffy to the degree that he did)
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Sanji is a wimp.
Luffy will just gin rd another cook that's better than him
Luffy will just gin rd another cook that's better than him
Well Pudding is a cook
Pudding for straw hat!
He definitely went too far. Even the Germa 66 was surprised at how much he hit Luffy. No matter what your motives are, it's not ok to attack your captain with everything you got.
Things will end well. I already said that. But I would be disapointed if nobody points that he shouldn't have gone as far as he did.
I just rewatched the scene when Nami "killed" Usopp, and yeah. Similar situations, different decisions.
He's been a bit of an asshole.
I like this idea
Ganzlinger
Member
Sanji has a Zeff to protect, Nami didn't. Cosette was almost killed because Sanji helped her, He had to severe ties with them, and since he knew a simple lie (like Nami did in Arlong Park - besides, Nami did hit Zoro in front of Arlong) wouldn't make them believe him (after everything they spent together), he had to did what he did, and it would have worked if Luffy wasn't so stubborn. They are facing a yonkou, Sanji wanted to prevent the exact situation they are currently, caged in Big Mom's chateau. If they had listened to Sanji, that wouldn't have happened. Luffy is still alive because Sanji bargained with Big Mom, but he can be killed anytime, that's why Sanji is still saving them by keeping this facade.
A pastry chef, to be more precisely.
Ganzlinger
Member
Like I said, Nami hit a bounded Zoro in front of Arlong. I don't know how you guys think he was being an asshole if Oda dedicated several panels to show him crying and worrying about his crewmates, after carefully showing every restraint Sanji was enduring.
And Yonji even offered himself to help. Sanji declined so he needed to be extra convincing. If every sibling decided to attack them, things could end up ugly, especially for Nami.
So here's a point of discussion that I've been rolling around in my mind.
Justification for talent/success.
Do you feel that the characters of One Piece earn the success they have against their adversaries?
It's a bit curious, because Oda doesn't like to do any kind of training arc and keeps that stuff to the background. Zoro, we know, does a lot of training (mostly weight lifting from what I can tell) in the background. Meanwhile, Luffy's power grows half because of training and half improvisation. I mean, if we look at a time line of his life, he decided to train with Sabo and Ace after Shanks got too handy with that Sea King. Stuff like his Gears are made up on the spot however. He got the idea for Gear 2 from the steam engine and mastered it before he arrived at Ennies Lobby in the travel time it took to get to there from Waters 7. Meanwhile, occasionally we see the rest of the crew dithering with their craft. Robin reads books, Nami occasionally looks at maps, Usopp is always tinkering with stuff, Sanji's usually making new treats, etc. But it's all implied, in the background.
Then the time skip happens which is the only official indication of meaningful training we get. All the Strawhats are sent to the masters of whatever craft they need to work on. Zoro to Mihawk, Usopp to a great warrior with a bunch of wierd stuff, Nami to a collection of weathermen, etc.
But that's also the timeskip. We essentially get a "And then they trained a whole lot."
I read and enjoy another series that mostly keeps the 'training arcs' to the background, but one big difference is that they specifically go into what the training arc actually composes of. With this, we mostly got a tiny bit of what Luffy did in developing Gear 4, and not much else. But honestly, that was one of the best parts of One Piece, where they actually laid out the rules for this mysterious new power and made explicit how progress can be made for in it. As you know, one of my biggest complaints about OP is how groundless it can feel, so finally someone just sitting down and going "Here's how this works" was satisfying and I wish more of it happened.
Like, for example, Doflamingo's and Luffy's Haki seemed to be evenly matched before he went gear 4. Now, unless I missed something, Gear 4 is Luffy puffing up his body with air and then activating Haki in a particular pattern. I never understood what Luffy actually did to make himself stronger here. Why is Air + Haki mean that Doflamingo's Haki attacks can no longer touch him? The only real reason for me to buy it is that I had to believe Luffy learned SOMETHING in his 2 years with Raleigh, but I don't really understand why this is makes him stronger.
Instead, OP focus' on how it works as a spectacle. You don't know how it works or why it does, but Luffy demonstrated a bunch of new attacks that the audience was meant to enjoy as a interesting fight choreography. In that way, it worked, especially if you like OP's art direction.
So as it is, how do you feel about the way One Piece goes about justifying the success of it's protagonists\fights?
Justification for talent/success.
Do you feel that the characters of One Piece earn the success they have against their adversaries?
It's a bit curious, because Oda doesn't like to do any kind of training arc and keeps that stuff to the background. Zoro, we know, does a lot of training (mostly weight lifting from what I can tell) in the background. Meanwhile, Luffy's power grows half because of training and half improvisation. I mean, if we look at a time line of his life, he decided to train with Sabo and Ace after Shanks got too handy with that Sea King. Stuff like his Gears are made up on the spot however. He got the idea for Gear 2 from the steam engine and mastered it before he arrived at Ennies Lobby in the travel time it took to get to there from Waters 7. Meanwhile, occasionally we see the rest of the crew dithering with their craft. Robin reads books, Nami occasionally looks at maps, Usopp is always tinkering with stuff, Sanji's usually making new treats, etc. But it's all implied, in the background.
Then the time skip happens which is the only official indication of meaningful training we get. All the Strawhats are sent to the masters of whatever craft they need to work on. Zoro to Mihawk, Usopp to a great warrior with a bunch of wierd stuff, Nami to a collection of weathermen, etc.
But that's also the timeskip. We essentially get a "And then they trained a whole lot."
I read and enjoy another series that mostly keeps the 'training arcs' to the background, but one big difference is that they specifically go into what the training arc actually composes of. With this, we mostly got a tiny bit of what Luffy did in developing Gear 4, and not much else. But honestly, that was one of the best parts of One Piece, where they actually laid out the rules for this mysterious new power and made explicit how progress can be made for in it. As you know, one of my biggest complaints about OP is how groundless it can feel, so finally someone just sitting down and going "Here's how this works" was satisfying and I wish more of it happened.
Like, for example, Doflamingo's and Luffy's Haki seemed to be evenly matched before he went gear 4. Now, unless I missed something, Gear 4 is Luffy puffing up his body with air and then activating Haki in a particular pattern. I never understood what Luffy actually did to make himself stronger here. Why is Air + Haki mean that Doflamingo's Haki attacks can no longer touch him? The only real reason for me to buy it is that I had to believe Luffy learned SOMETHING in his 2 years with Raleigh, but I don't really understand why this is makes him stronger.
Instead, OP focus' on how it works as a spectacle. You don't know how it works or why it does, but Luffy demonstrated a bunch of new attacks that the audience was meant to enjoy as a interesting fight choreography. In that way, it worked, especially if you like OP's art direction.
So as it is, how do you feel about the way One Piece goes about justifying the success of it's protagonists\fights?
TheGreatDirector
Banned
I can see that. No way was Oda going to make an arc as long as Dressrosa anytime soon.
I think Oda likes to intentionally keep the details of the Strawhats training a secret. We've heard Luffy needed Gear 4 to survive the beasts of the island he was on. We've also seen multiple forms of it. From this you can infer that the different forms were needed for different survival situations.
From this we've only seen the bare minimum of what the other Strawhats from their fights on Fishman Island. Sanji learned Skywalk to avoid the Okama, Usopp switched to using plants due to discovering their use on the island he was on, etc.
I think, for a series that had Luffy get his ass kicked by Lucci one night and pretty much soundly kick Lucci and Blueno's asses the next day, that the training we know of now is enough justification for their wins in fights. I only think that when we get into Yonko, Admiral, and commander level fights with rest of the crew that we should be seeing more justification.
I think you and I line up similarly here. I like knowing the mechanics of a show. With a strong base, conflict (physical or otherwise) and have some sort of metric to judge the validity of the outcome on.
But I've kind of learned to OP isn't really going to be that kind of show in most instances. So I do try and appreciate how OP uniquely handles its fights. A heavy dose of comedy pretty much saves all of Chopper, Usop, Brook, and Franky's fights.
The more "badass" the fight, the more problems I have squaring with outcomes with something other than "try hard and fight for the right side and the power to win will always come through". It's not just that they win (because that's to be expected) but how Sanji, Zoro and sometime Luffy win is not as interesting in terms of how the battles play out. For example, I thought Luffy vs Lucci was pretty much just a slug fest in which Luffy comes out on top. Again, story wise Luffy's win means a whole lot. I just didn't think the fight had an interesting dynamic to exploit.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Gear 4 pumps air into his muscles which is different from gear 3rd pumping air into his bones and gear 2 which just pumps his blood at a faster rate. He combines rubbery muscle contraction with haki producd to a compression effect that releases in burst power (that's what the arms going into itself effect is muscle contraction combined with haki. Basically it works like a spring or a piston rather than a rubber band or a ballon like the rest of Luffy's attacks.
That's why it's much more destructive than the rest of Luffy's attacks in a localised manner and maintains a hard and rubbery texture since your when you hit it your really coming into contact with large rubbery muscles imbued with haki.
As far as generic shounen powerups I actually think it's rather smart though out there. It at least has some basis in physics principals such as stress, strain and compression.
He's a leaker and spoiler for OP and a bunch of other manga.
As far as Shonen fights go I think Oda has managed to up the spectacle in terms of power levels and fight choreography while keeping them grounded and logical. There hasn't been a moment in the series where one of our heroes where completely out classed and they only won the fight due to the power of friendship.
Take all of Luffy's fights and how they adhere to the internal rules of the universe.
Pre-Time Skip
-Crocodile: Paramecia vs Logia. Luffy wins because he figures out moisture makes Crocodile tangible.
-Enel: Paramecia vs Logia . Luffy wins because rubber is a natural insulator to lighting.
-Aokiji: Paramecia vs Logia. Luffy was utterly defeated because the only way to win against the Hie Hie no Mi was with a fire type logia, White Beards Gura Gura no Mi or haki.
-Lucci: Paramecia vs Zoan. Luffy wins but its close. Oda introduces gear 2nd & 3rd which places very serve strain and time limit on Luffys body since he hadn't mastered them yet. Match essentially ends because neither can move due to the strain caused by the fight but in universe it makes sense that a rubber man could take more damage than a leopard.
-Kuma: Paramecia vs Paramecia-cyborg. Luffy looses. Outclassed by devil fruit technique and doesn't know haki.
- Magellan: Paramecia vs Paramecia. Luffy looses due to poison.
-Marineford Arc: Outclassed in every fight and is only able to keep going due to Ivankov's
Horu Horu no Mi fruit.
Post-Time Skip
-Caesar: Paramecia vs Logia. Luffy wins because he's immune to poison due to Magellan and knows haki so he can now grab logia users.
-Doflamingo: Paramecia vs Paramecia. Luffy wins due to a combination of gear 4,Law and the gladiators letting him recover for 5 minute.
-Cracker: Paramecia vs Paramecia. Luffy wins due to a combination of gear 4 and Nami using her weather powers to soften the cracker armor.
The same internal logic can be applied to justify everyone's fights.
VIZ/MS time, yo.
In VIZ, Anglaise getting the word a bit wrong is more obvious than it was in MS: He says "ninfilnator" before Galette corrects him to "infiltrator".
Interestingly, Sanji's initial words in his room make it sound like he's still considering running away. Instead of "Get it together, man!", he says, "No, I can't!" and then, "I made a deal with Big Mom! She's gonna let the gang go! And if I just get married, I can save the Baratie too!"
Instead of "a bomb", Pedro is just said to have "explosives".
Rather than the third floor of "ambaum", Tamago states Pedro's on the third floor of "the red-bean baum cake". He also says "Pedro, you conniver!" instead of "Damned Pedro, going all out on us".
In MS, Smoothie notes that the second intruder "took us by surprise", which could imply that he ambushed them. In VIZ, she says the infiltrator "slipped past us", clarifying that Brook snuck in behind their backs. And instead of "this was my mistake", she says "We got sloppy!"
Tamago's last speech bubble to Smoothie (in response to her asking if she can kill him) has some differences, too. "If it's who I think it is, he is 'le bones'! One of the freaks Mama desires! So...half-kill only!" MS states that Smoothie described him as being all bones while VIZ implies that Tamago is just guessing that, and VIZ clarifies that they can beat Brook half to death as long as he doesn't actually die.
As usual, MS says more stuff than VIZ. Where it has the whole bubble saying "Pedro's done a fine job . . .", VIZ just has "Brilliant work, Pedro!" And his words after introducing himself as Soul King: "Your lazy, slapped-on little souls cannot stay on their feet in the presence of my soul scream!"
Pudding uses both Luffy's and Nami's names in VIZ, so Opera instead repeats "Luffy and Nami?" Also, Pudding's bubble that originally just said "They..." in MS says "So...they got you." in VIZ, and their reply to her apology is just "Oh, Pudding..." (without the "It's okay!").
Pudding's got an added "I wanted to let you know that" Sanji proposed to her, and her stuff she says before assuring them that she won't marry Sanji is, "I know he's just being considerate of me. My presence here is causing pain to everyone..." Further implying she's planning on running away, perhaps?
http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=44697&page=17&p=3731234&viewfull=1#post3731234
In VIZ, Anglaise getting the word a bit wrong is more obvious than it was in MS: He says "ninfilnator" before Galette corrects him to "infiltrator".
Interestingly, Sanji's initial words in his room make it sound like he's still considering running away. Instead of "Get it together, man!", he says, "No, I can't!" and then, "I made a deal with Big Mom! She's gonna let the gang go! And if I just get married, I can save the Baratie too!"
Instead of "a bomb", Pedro is just said to have "explosives".
Rather than the third floor of "ambaum", Tamago states Pedro's on the third floor of "the red-bean baum cake". He also says "Pedro, you conniver!" instead of "Damned Pedro, going all out on us".
In MS, Smoothie notes that the second intruder "took us by surprise", which could imply that he ambushed them. In VIZ, she says the infiltrator "slipped past us", clarifying that Brook snuck in behind their backs. And instead of "this was my mistake", she says "We got sloppy!"
Tamago's last speech bubble to Smoothie (in response to her asking if she can kill him) has some differences, too. "If it's who I think it is, he is 'le bones'! One of the freaks Mama desires! So...half-kill only!" MS states that Smoothie described him as being all bones while VIZ implies that Tamago is just guessing that, and VIZ clarifies that they can beat Brook half to death as long as he doesn't actually die.
As usual, MS says more stuff than VIZ. Where it has the whole bubble saying "Pedro's done a fine job . . .", VIZ just has "Brilliant work, Pedro!" And his words after introducing himself as Soul King: "Your lazy, slapped-on little souls cannot stay on their feet in the presence of my soul scream!"
Pudding uses both Luffy's and Nami's names in VIZ, so Opera instead repeats "Luffy and Nami?" Also, Pudding's bubble that originally just said "They..." in MS says "So...they got you." in VIZ, and their reply to her apology is just "Oh, Pudding..." (without the "It's okay!").
Pudding's got an added "I wanted to let you know that" Sanji proposed to her, and her stuff she says before assuring them that she won't marry Sanji is, "I know he's just being considerate of me. My presence here is causing pain to everyone..." Further implying she's planning on running away, perhaps?
http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=44697&page=17&p=3731234&viewfull=1#post3731234
Imperial Bishop
Banned
One of the things I like about how Oda handles strength progression is that he's not fond of training arcs. I'm not a fan of them as well.
Instead, our heroes get stronger through experience and further development of skills they already possessed.
Luffy was already monstrously strong when he set sail from Windmill Village and didn't face a really tough opponent that he couldn't beat until Smoker.
Since then, Luffy's fight victories have been a variation of exploiting weaknesses and creatively using his devil fruit powers in a new way.
Once he ran into characters who couldn't easily be defeated using the two methods above, he had to buckle down and train for two years to freely use the tools that would help him break through the Admiral ceiling.
Now that Luffy has those tools, the same process that he went through at the start of his journey will continue again, where he'll gain more experience and grow as he fights against more tough opponents.
To answer your question, I am mostly satisfied with how One Piece justifies the victories for the crew.
Hmmmm....
That's what the editor said, but are we sure that it'll go that way? Oda tends to underestimate the amount of time an arc can take to complete as he may come up with more ideas to add.
All I'll say now is....let's wait and see.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Then the whole manga should be rushed. Ain't nobody got time for leviathan of arcs that Donflamingo's was composed of.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
That's seems like weird phrasing if he's promoting the manga.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
I hope that's not the case. I want this arc to conclude as satisfyingly as possible.
Rushing through the opportunity to let Nami, Brook, and Chopper shine in this arc when they're actively involved in the plot would be disappointing and terrible.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
I vaguely recall an interview with Oda around the Dressrosa arc where he said that he found himself coming up with more ideas for the story as he was writing it.
It would be interesting if the editors are trying to put a kibosh on that happening again.
If the arc is being 'rushed through', then I sort of hope Big Mom doesn't get beaten by the end of it.
It would be interesting if the editors are trying to put a kibosh on that happening again.
If the arc is being 'rushed through', then I sort of hope Big Mom doesn't get beaten by the end of it.
Big Mom isn't going down this arc.
Thanks!
That's interesting. So it's almost impossible that big mom would go down in this arc (didn't think so anyway)
Edit: WANO HYPE
Ganzlinger
Member
He said it would be fast-paced. Which hopefully it means more dynamic than rushed.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Bog mom was robbed! Half way done?
Pink bird didn't deserve a long arc.
Pink bird didn't deserve a long arc.
Where's that image of OP chapter publications in Jump? trying to estimate when in 2017 the chapter will end
Unless Brook (soul king) and Nami (weather girl) turn out to have the precise powers to counter Big Mom like Luffy countered an overpowered Enel.
Unless Brook (soul king) and Nami (weather girl) turn out to have the precise powers to counter Big Mom like Luffy countered an overpowered Enel.
TheGreatDirector
Banned
Luffy doesn't seem to be at Yonko's level of strength yet. Not too surprising.
Taking down Kaido is going to be a collective effort and group fight in my opinion. No way is it a simple 1 v. 1.
Luffy is nowhere near the right condition to fight Big Mom.
He spent 11 hours fighting Cracker, where he exhausted himself and got stabbed in various places.
He spent that 11 hours eating biscuits.
After digesting and a few minutes of sleep, he got utterly beaten by Sanji. Luffy saw through his ruse and declared he will not eat anything unless Sanji prepares it.
Then Big Mom's family stomped him flat.
He's not fighting Linlin.
He spent 11 hours fighting Cracker, where he exhausted himself and got stabbed in various places.
He spent that 11 hours eating biscuits.
After digesting and a few minutes of sleep, he got utterly beaten by Sanji. Luffy saw through his ruse and declared he will not eat anything unless Sanji prepares it.
Then Big Mom's family stomped him flat.
He's not fighting Linlin.
Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd kind of appeared from nowhere, yeah. I rather like the fact that they haven't really wasted a ton of time covering each character and its training in OP.
In general, I think the justification of the power ups shown during the Water 7 arc were basically the crew acknowledging that they needed to become stronger if they wanted to stay ahead of the curve. And since traveling from island to island must take a lot of time (even though it doesn't take screentime) they can train there. It's a bit of a stretch in the Going Merry, which was relatively small, but the Thousand Sunny is quite big.
Now, going over to the Gear 4th. I think the idea is that he insufles air into his muscles and then uses Haki to both strengthen himself and give form to his body. Basically Gear 4th only works because of Haki. Thanks to Luffy's control of Haki he is able to control how flexible or tough his body is, which allows him to charge his fists and legs as if they were cannon balls.
It's quite smart, actually. I would say it makes sense internally, at least.
He got lots of sugar during that fight though. So at least his stomach is not empty.
Im lost, I need the chapter already
gundamkyoukai
Member
A lot going in this chapter it seems.
everyday math
Banned
No chapter next week 😫
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Well Brook is fucked, I can't predict this arc
Lightning_Roller
Banned
I think Brook might walk outta this, maybe. Also it might be an interesting battle against each other devil fruit wise.
No Jump next week. Everyone is off.
BobTheFork
Member
I want Mom to try and steal part of his soul and he just takes it right back and Mom gives us a giant reaction.
This is going to be one crazy chapter.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
OH
MY
!!!
MY
!!!
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Eh I highly doubt that's work, even if he hard countered her DF, haki exists and he is woefully outmatched
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