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One Piece Manga |OT2| Four Emperors, One King, All Blue

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V

Veelk

Banned
Principate said:
We already have two points of comparison in terms of mainstream shounen. Naruto and One Piece. Naruto empathsize every single viliain outside of asspull big boss villain, like every single one. To the point that thr final villain is litterally just an anti-hero. Humanising viliains doesn't during a conflict doesn't inherently make them better it makes the character deeper but if all you do is that it gets absurdly stupid unless you ground their objectives too. (Coming up with empathsiseabld reasons for mass murder rape and genocide gets stupid eventually). Azula is a good counts point as she's practically a One piece villain only near the end of two seasons worth of character development does she change. Even then it's not greatly.
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I mean, no narrative technique, by itself, will improve or ruin any series. That's a bit of a caricature of what I'm saying. Kishimoto's work sucks because he's a pretty bad writer, and if he did have OP-esque villains, it wouldn't stop all the other flaws like the repetitiveness, the contrivances, the convoluted and unbelievable backstories, that make Naruto suck. It wouldn't have saved Naruto, but it wouldn't have improved it. Writing works as a collective, so humanizing villains is not an automatic pass to good writing. It needs the rest of the content around it to be good as well as having the execution of it to be good. What I am saying it is, however, is a plus. I've certainly never seen it be a negative.

Also, I'm not going to go into the Azula debate because this isn't the avatar thread, but I disagree with that allegation and the idea of Azula being OP-esque makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
 
P

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Veelk said:
I mean, no narrative technique, by itself, will improve or ruin any series. That's a bit of a caricature of what I'm saying. Kishimoto's work sucks because he's a pretty bad writer, and if he did have OP-esque villains, it wouldn't stop all the other flaws like the repetitiveness, the contrivances, the convoluted and unbelievable backstories.

Humanizing people is not an automatic pass to good writing. It needs the content around it to be good as well as having the execution of it to be good. What I am saying it is, however, is a plus. I've certainly never seen it be a negative.

Also, I'm not going to go into the Azula debate because this isn't the avatar thread, but I disagree with that allegation and the idea of Azula being OP-esque makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
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In season 2 what did you know about her and what were her motivations. You cannot tell me with a straight face that in season 2 she was a deeply emphasizable villain because that's a ball faced lie. She's used to contrast with Zuko in that season precisely because of that reason.

She's Machiavellian exact same archetype as Crocodile. They were both damn good at it.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Principate said:
In season 2 what did you know about her and what were her motivations. You cannot tell me with a straight face that in season 2 she was deeply emphasizable villain because that's a ball faced lie. She's used to contrast with Zuko in that season precisely because of that reason.

She's Machiavellian exact same arche type as Crocodile. They were both damn good at it.
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Pfft.

Crocodile chissed and toiled at taking over a kingdom for years and ended up failing. Azula took over the Earth Kingdom in 3 days. If they ever met, Croc would be begging for Machiavellian lessons from the 14 year old girl.

But in this case, you're right about her not recieving humanization early on so much as in Season 3 (which isn't like Mr. 3 or Bon Clay at all, since she is still an active villain in that time. Her humanization is more like how Darth Vader was just an evil dude in ANH and then revealed to have a human connection in ESB and then at his most human in RotJ. It's progressive, but not reserved just until after he's no longer a threat).

But she also isn't a OP villain in the sense that she doesn't waste time with "bwa-ha-ha" bullshit. She is RUTHLESSLY efficient, and that's something I can't say about any OP villain. That's not even me hating, people talked a few weeks back about how every villain underestimates the strawhats and would have killed them early on had they taken them more seriously. Kuma is the only one who ever just cut the bullshit, and he's the only one who ever truly defeated the entire strawhat crew. The only reason they survived was because he is actually on their side. Goda help the straw hats the day the come across someone who cuts the bullshit and goes straight to business.

Like, we're all talking about pudding and how she's the queen bitch of OP and all. And sure, I like pudding, more than most villains. But she revealed 1. Her candy jacket gun pointlessly 2. had Sanji overhear her true personality 3. revealed her true personality to Luffy. Azula wouldn't have catered to that stupid villain bullshit and laughed when her enemies were all dead and at her feet.
 
R

RalchAC

Member
Loudninja said:
Chopper has many talents as well, a doctor, can talk to animals, fight in many different forms as well.
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- He is cute.
- He is the crew's meat reserve.
- He isn't a traitor (Am I doing it well, GAF?)
- He's got more cut in the past few years.
- His joke bounty is awesome.
- Has a nice back story.
- Knows Kung-Fu.
- He is even cuter since the timeskip.
- He is the least weird of the Grand Line crew members.
- And his interactions with Usopp are really funny.

Much better than Brook, who felt redundant until two chapters ago. He has my respect now though. Long live the Soul King!
 
P

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Veelk said:
Pfft.

Crocodile chissed and toiled at taking over a kingdom for years and ended up failing. Azula took over the Earth Kingdom in 3 days. If they ever met, Croc would be begging for Machiavellian lessons from the 14 year old girl.

But in this case, you're right about her not recieving humanization early on so much as in Season 3 (which isn't like Mr. 3 or Bon Clay at all, since she is still an active villain in that time. Her humanization is more like how Darth Vader was just an evil dude in ANH and then revealed to have a human connection in ESB and then at his most human in RotJ. It's progressive, but not reserved just until after he's no longer a threat).

But she also isn't a OP villain in the sense that she doesn't waste time with "bwa-ha-ha" bullshit. She is RUTHLESSLY efficient, and that's something I can't say about any OP villain. That's not even me hating, people talked a few weeks back about how every villain underestimates the strawhats and would have killed them early on had they taken them more seriously. Kuma is the only one who ever just cut the bullshit, and he's the only one who ever truly defeated the entire strawhat crew. The only reason they survived was because he is actually on their side. Goda help the straw hats the day the come across someone who cuts the bullshit and goes straight to business.

Like, we're all talking about pudding and how she's the queen bitch of OP and all. And sure, I like pudding, more than most villains. But she revealed 1. Her candy jacket gun pointlessly 2. had Sanji overhear her true personality 3. revealed her true personality to Luffy. Azula wouldn't have catered to that stupid villain bullshit and laughed when her enemies were all dead and at her feet.
Click to expand...

Breh the Earth kingdom was weak and pathetic. The monarch was incompetent and frankly how that whole thing went down wasn't remotely believable. Crocodile defeated the protagonist twice one of the only villains to do so and had layers upon fucking layers to his plans. Crocodile didn't even really care about the kingdom and Azula was so small time she never had an important character break down in tears screaming out his name because he played he outsmarted and outplayed her every single step of the way.

He was like Beast Wars Megatron, he liked to hedge his bets.
 
L

LotusHD

Banned
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
You know jokes aside for a sec. Any guesses on how to counter that ability or reverse it
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Knock her out, cover your head with Haki, etc.

I dunno though, I want to believe that you can't reverse it. I mean she legit just cut it out. It'd be weird for it to just magically go back into your head or whatever.
 
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