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[Oersted]

That wasn't the point. That statement proves that not all survivors want this "justice."

A majority spoke out against him. Get over it.

 

[phisheep]

Part of the trial were multiple survivors making statements against him.

Yes. And the lady who made the statement I quoted was one of them. She testified for the prosecution at the trial and spoke out against the sentence.

EDIT: And just nitpicking a bit, it was Groening's own evidence, not that of the survivors, that placed him there. They were testifiying about Auschwitz not specifically against Groening.

 

[Oersted]

Americans truly do have the justice system they secretly desire.

Letting white people off the hook for committing crimes against minorities?

 

[StrongBlackVine]

A majority spoke out against him. Get over it.

I have nothing to get over.

 

[Bounceounce]

Imagine being arrogant enough to believe you're special enough not to get swept up into a wave of social change regardless of how abhorrent it is, because of your modern sensibilities/perspectives and divorcement from the same influences and social pressure these people faced.

There's a very good chance that anyone on an high horse in this thread could have been one of those faceless "monsters" or apart of the plethora of silent voices.

 

[Occam]

With the verdict or with the sentence? I'm curious as to your reasoning. I find I can't really argue with the verdict, and that given the verdict I can't really argue the sentence. What I do have issue with is the time delay of, what 40 years or so?

You didn't address me, but I disagree with the verdict because as I see it his only direct offense was joining the SS at age 19, before the genocide started (and without 70 years of hindsight and without knowing the gruesome details we know now). He was found guilty of having been an accessory to murder. However, he didn't volunteer to take part in genocide, he was sent to Auschwitz without being given a choice, and he had no idea what was happening there prior to his arrival. He didn't personally murder anyone while there. After coming to Auschwitz and learning that the state was committing mass murder there, he asked to be transferred to a different post, which was denied by his superiors. It seems to me that his accountability is limited. Up until Groening, not a single SS member was ever sentenced just for having been there, only those who verifiably committed crimes such as murder.
Now that the people who actually instigated the Holocaust are gone, they go after a low ranking man who did not personally kill anyone and who actually spoke out against Holocaust denial. Look what happened to one of the co-authors of the Nuremberg Laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Globke

 

[jtb]

Imagine being arrogant enough to believe you're special enough not to get swept up into a wave of social change regardless of how abhorrent it is, because of your modern sensibilities/perspectives and divorcement from the same influences and social pressure these people faced.

There's a very good chance that anyone on an high horse in this thread could have been one of those faceless "monsters" or apart of the plethora of silent voices.

Imagine being arrogant enough to think that you can be an accomplice to genocide, and not deserve punishment.

 

[michaelius]

He was 19 when he joined, after having been brainwashed by the NS education system and propaganda for 6 years. Which incidentally was before his coming of age, which was 21 at the time.
Those people who voted for Hitler in 1932 weren't brainwashed, and they were older than Groening when he joined the SS.

It's not that easy. If he felt strongly about Germany he had Luftwaffe, Wehrmacht or Kriegsmarine as options to serve his country.

He willingly chosen SS

 

[XOMTOR]

This already happened. This man already escaped justice because our system failed in bringing him to trial at the proper time, when it would have still been meaningful and useful. That time is long past. Society has moved on, the world is completely different now and there is no value to that message anymore. I find the message that our society has evolved past seeking revenge more powerful than the message that the bill will come due at some point.

Bingo. Forgiveness would be an extremely powerful message.

Eva Mozes Kor, an Auschwitz survivor who has forgiven the Nazis, has said she is "disappointed" that Oskar Groening has been sentenced to imprisonment.

She said: "He has accepted responsibility and admitted his guilt. They are trying to teach a lesson that if you commit such a crime, you will be punished. But I do not think the court has acted properly in sentencing him to four years in jail. It is too late for that kind of sentence."

She went on: "My preference would have been to sentence him to community service by speaking out against neo-Nazis. I would like the court to prove to me, a survivor, how four years in jail will benefit anybody. Groening said in his statements that he was wrong, it never should have happened, and it should never happen again

Human compassion is a beautiful thing.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

This already happened. This man already escaped justice because our system failed in bringing him to trial at the proper time, when it would have still been meaningful and useful. That time is long past. Society has moved on, the world is completely different now and there is no value to that message anymore. I find the message that our society has evolved past seeking revenge more powerful than the message that the bill will come due at some point.

My post literally began with me saying it's not about revenge...

I don't know what you're posting a response to.

 

[excelsiorlef]

To me, justice is rehabilitation and redemption.... with maybe a small bit of punishment, which he already served as a POW... Puting him in prison now would accomplish absolutely nothing

what he did was freaking horrible, but it was 70 years ago and i'd like to think he changed a lot withing all these years, witnessing the world changing (and challenging holocaust deniers right now)

I don't know for him, but not all nazis were monsters, but humans who made big mistakes to protect themselves and their family... There's nazis who tried to assassinate hitler and cooperate with the allies, but they were still nazis, are they monsters too?

I can't agree with that revenge justice that a lot of people has (sure, it's harder to forget revenge when you talk about genocide, i understand that... but still... being emotional is not real justce)

Genocide isn't just a mistake.

 

[Oersted]

You didn't address me, but I disagree with the verdict because as I see it his only direct offense was joining the SS at age 19, before the genocide started (and without 70 years of hindsight and without knowing the gruesome details we know now). He was found guilty of having been an accessory to murder. However, he didn't volunteer to take part in genocide, he was sent to Auschwitz without being given a choice, and he had no idea what was happening there before. He didn't personally murder anyone while there. After coming to Auschwitz and learning that the state was committing mass murder there, he asked to be transferred to a different post, which was denied by his superiors. It seems to me that his accountability is limited. Up until Groening, not a single SS member was ever sentenced just for having been there, only those who verifiably committed crimes such as murder.
Now that the people who actually instigated the Holocaust are gone, they go after a low ranking man who did not personally kill anyone. Look what happened to one of the co-authors of the Nuremberg Laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Globke

He joined SS out of conviction.

Noone needed 70 years or hindsight to know what happened.

He had a choice. And he knew what was happening.

Everyone who worked in a Konzentrationslager helped making it happen and can be persecuted.

 

[phisheep]

You didn't address me, but I disagree with the verdict because as I see it his only direct offense was joining the SS at age 19, before the genocide started (and without 70 years of hindsight and without knowing the gruesome details we know now). He was found guilty of having been an accessory to murder. However, he didn't volunteer to take part in genocide, he was sent to Auschwitz without being given a choice, and he had no idea what was happening there before. He didn't personally murder anyone while there. After coming to Auschwitz and learning that the state was committing mass murder there, he asked to be transferred to a different post, which was denied by his superiors. It seems to me that his accountability is limited. Up until Groening, not a single SS member was ever sentenced just for having been there, only those who verifiably committed crimes such as murder.
Now that the people who actually instigated the Holocaust are gone, they go after a low ranking man who did not personally kill anyone. Look what happened to one of the co-authors of the Nuremberg Laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Globke

Yeah, there are various ins and outs here, and I'm not familiar with the laws that he was tried under. I do know that here in the UK duress is not a defence to murder and I guess something similar goes for genocide, though it has taken the courts rather a long time to catch up with it. It's the delay that is my only real concern here, though I am sympathetic to your argument - which I think is reflected in the relatively short sentence.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Americans truly do have the justice system they secretly desire.

This is in Germany

 

[phisheep]

My bedtime. But may I just say this has been a pretty well-behaved thread given it is on a difficult topic with some wildly divergent views. Don't let it all go soggy overnight guys.

 

[Occam]

He joined SS out of conviction.

Noone needed 70 years or hindsight to know what happened.

He had a choice. And he knew what was happening.

Everyone who worked in a Konzentrationslager helped making it happen and can be persecuted.

Yeah, you are right, he really should have googled Auschwitz before joining the SS.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yeah, you are right, he really should have googled Auschwitz before joining the SS.

His reaction to it was that the extermination should have been done differently, not that it shouldn't have been done at all.

Why are you trying to excuse this man.

 

[Occam]

NB: Groening joined the Waffen SS in 1940, which was the military wing of SS, not the Totenkopf SS, which was guarding concentration camps. I think this little fact makes a lot of difference. He clearly did not want to serve in a concentration camp.

 

[Muffin1611]

Yeah, you are right, he really should have googled Auschwitz before joining the SS.

Are you trying to say that a 19 year old joining the SS in 1940 wasn't aware that he would be participating in making the lives of countless jews a living hell

Because you can't be that naive

NB: Groening joined the Waffen SS in 1940, which was the military wing of SS, not the Totenkopf SS, which was guarding concentration camps. I think this little fact makes a lot of difference. He clearly did not want to serve in a concentration camp.

Pretty sure they're one and the same

The Totenkopf Division is part of the Waffen-SS, if I'm not confusing something

 

[PhantomThief]

NB: Groening joined the Waffen SS in 1940, which was the military wing of SS, not the Totenkopf SS, which was guarding concentration camps. I think this little fact makes a lot of difference. He clearly did not want to serve in a concentration camp.

Yeah, what a great guy.

 

[Dmax3901]

So I looked into his story a little more, passed the first paragraph on his Wikipedia page.

Found this piece from 2005 which is not only a great read, it also provides a far better idea of his reactions to learning about the purpose of the camp.

"He also learns that most Jews are sent to the gas chambers. The next day, Oskar Gröning begins counting money.

He believes in Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels. He believes that it is the Germans' duty to destroy global Judaism. He believes that Germany lost World War I because of the Jews. And he wants Germany to win this war."

Below is the alleged reason for him requesting to be transferred elsewhere. WARNING, it's horrific but no doubt a common sight at the time.

Spoiler

"A new shipment had arrived. I had been assigned to ramp duty, and it was my job to guard the luggage. The Jews had already been taken away. The ground in front of me was littered with junk, left-over belongings. Suddenly I heard a baby crying. The child was lying on the ramp, wrapped in rags. A mother had left it behind, perhaps because she knew that women with infants were sent to the gas chambers immediately. I saw another SS soldier grab the baby by the legs. The crying had bothered him. He smashed the baby's head against the iron side of a truck until it was silent."

The following is after he witnesses the above.

"He lies in bed at night, unable to sleep. You've gotten yourself into a vile situation, he thinks. He draws a line between individual excesses and mass murder committed by the society as a whole. He believes the excesses are barbaric, but the mass murder legitimate.

He goes to his commanding officer and says: "If this is always the way things are done here, I would like to be transferred." The officer replies: "What you saw the other day certainly was out of the ordinary. But you signed a letter of commitment. Everyone serves where he is assigned."

So basically he believed genocide was necessary, he just didn't like seeing it. He didn't request a transfer because of what was happening at Auschwitz, but because of the crude methods of some of the guards. He wasn't a young German who was against genocide with every fibre of his being, tragically held against his will. He believed in it all, just couldn't stomach coming face to face with it.

Lock him up imo.

 

[Occam]

Are you trying to say that a 19 year old joining the SS in 1940 wasn't aware that he would be participating in making the lives of countless jews a living hell

Because you can't be that naive

Pretty sure they're one and the same

The Totenkopf Division is part of the Waffen-SS, if I'm not confusing something

Sorry, but I think you don't know enough about this subject to warrant further discussion.

 

[frontovik]

All the strawmen arguments are getting quite tiresome.

 

[Oersted]

Yeah, you are right, he really should have googled Auschwitz before joining the SS.

This is low, even for the usually low standards in these threads.


He knew. He didn't refuse despite being able to do so.

 

[JordanN]

You can never be too old to send a Nazi straight back to hell to where they came from.

The second you stepped into a concentration camp and it didn't register to you it's a sadistic place of evil, you're an accomplice.

 

[Muffin1611]

Sorry, but I think you don't know enough about this subject to warrant further discussion.

This is rich coming from you.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel

Im Herbst 1939 wurden die Leibstandarte, die Verfügungstruppe und die Totenkopfverbände langsam zur Waffen-SS verschmolzen.

He entered the Waffen-SS, which Totenkopfverbände were part of by then. Saying he was actively trying to avoid working in concentration camps because he joined the Waffen-SS and not a Totenkopfverband seems more like not knowing much about the subject to me.

 

[Raven117]

Justice is not contingent on age. Does he have to serve "hard time" with general population? No, but he must not enjoy freedom.

We all have to answer for what we have done. Not who you are now. Not whether you will do it again. Not even for the victims themselves. Justice.

The man tangentially assisted and participated in the murder of thousands of people. And while he may be a "good man" now, that does not negate what he did (see Nuremberg).

 

[AmayaPapaya]

I've read a few comments here, but the prevalent idea on one side seems to be to "teach a lesson" through intimidation, and authoritarianism. I don't see how it teaches any lesson. Maybe if you did it 60 or 50 years ago, when he was still young, and this was more materially relevant...but now? People get it, especially in Germany, that the Nazis were bad. And those who don't, are not gonna be swayed by this. Everyone made up their minds long ago. The time to punish and teach is gone, and has been gone. It's not gone because of time, but just because the people are not there anymore.

At some point, you gotta realize you're doing nothing, but punishing an old man who's gonna die soon anyway. Ideology in the way of reality. I don't believe in punishment. It's stupid, and just there to appease our darker sides. There is not real value in it, besides making everyone feel better that they got a Nazi. I agree with others; forgiving is a far more powerful lesson, and has far more to actually teach.

There have been genocides since the Holocaust, and this just fails on all levels to address them. There is one going on, right now, in Chechnya. Is this really going to help with that? Of course not. This is just "Justice Porn," at the expense of an old man who helped other people do terrible things because of stuff ingrained in him when he was 12 years old.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

Are you trying to say that a 19 year old joining the SS in 1940 wasn't aware that he would be participating
The Totenkopf Division is part of the Waffen-SS, if I'm not confusing something

The 3rd SS Panzer Division was called Totenkopf, and it recruited members from the concentration camp guards.

Hmm...

Again, perhaps you should take the time to read what I posted. But I firmly think you are confused as to what you are even arguing about, since I responded to a post about a hypotetical war between NK and the US, which was a response to an even more ridiculous post. You seem to think that I don't understand how the Holocaust compared to other atrocities and how vile the Nazis were in committing genocide against the Jews? Perhaps instead of assuming an agenda, you could ask me to clarify what I meant? Which I did? I can even admit it was an off the cuff reaction to ignorance of the US's compliance in lesser, but still harmful atrocities. If you want to continue by PM I'd be happy too.

I think you misinterpreted the intent of his post. 'Pulling golden teeth out of people's skulls' is an image that is firmly assoaciated with the holocaust. He meant that the US isn't planning to commit genocide in a hypothetical Korean conflict, unlike German in WWII; not that American soldiers are incapable of committing genocide. If you're unfamiliar with how metaphors work this may be of use to you.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

You know it's entirely possible to let him go without punishment and not forgive him people.

Genocide.

 

[Aytumious]

Are you seriously comparing the Vietnam and Korean wars to the Holocaust? And I though the 'just following orders' Nazi apologia was bad.

You should really learn how to read.

 

[Occam]

This is rich coming from you.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel

Yes, but he didn't join the Totenkopf SS while it was solely responsible for guarding concentration camps. While the Waffen SS originated there, the Waffen SS was first and foremost a military organization fighting at the various fronts.

 

[wolfhowwl]

The "Clean Wehrmacht" (let alone the SS) is a myth.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I've read a few comments here, but the prevalent idea on one side seems to be to "teach a lesson" through intimidation, and authoritarianism. I don't see how it teaches any lesson. Maybe if you did it 60 or 50 years ago, when he was still young, and this was more materially relevant...but now? People get it, especially in Germany, that the Nazis were bad. And those who don't, are not gonna be swayed by this. Everyone made up their minds long ago. The time to punish and teach is gone, and has been gone. It's not gone because of time, but just because the people are not there anymore.

At some point, you gotta realize you're doing nothing, but punishing an old man who's gonna die soon anyway. Ideology in the way of reality. I don't believe in punishment. It's stupid, and just there to appease our darker sides. There is not real value in it, besides making everyone feel better that they got a Nazi. I agree with others; forgiving is a far more powerful lesson, and has far more to actually teach.

There have been genocides since the Holocaust, and this just fails on all levels to address them. There is one going on, right now, in Chechnya. Is this really going to help with that? Of course not. This is just "Justice Porn," at the expense of an old man who helped other people do terrible things because of stuff ingrained in him when he was 12 years old.

What good is served not having him face justice?

And forgiveness is not this sacrosanct virtue. You use forgiveness as a weapon when you preach it this way. When you use it to deem those who do not want to forgive as broken, authoritarian, or in need of education.

 

[Gnome Scat]

Although he has clearly shown he is reformed, it is important to properly punish an accessory to genocide. It is unfortunate, but necessary.

 

[Psychoward]

Yeah, you are right, he really should have googled Auschwitz before joining the SS.

Yeah I'm sure he thought the SS would be a charity organization helping out the Jewish community.

 

[JordanN]

Also, enough of "he was too young/indoctrinated to resist the Nazis".

People were awake back then and saw Hitler was nothing but trouble.

Gandhi's letter to Hitler

Nazis are the lowest point of humanity. I can't feel sorry for a group of people who codified genocide into law.

 

[Old Gimlet Eyes]

The only good nazi is a dead one.

 

[Muffin1611]

Yes, but he didn't join the Totenkopf SS while it was solely responsible for guarding concentration camps. While the Waffen SS originated there, the Waffen SS was first and foremost a military organization fighting at the various fronts.

And he performed administrative work for the Waffen-SS, which the concentration camp guards were also part of. And got moved there.

Your argument implied that he tried to avoid the camps, why did he join the Waffen-SS then after they merged it, knowing the possibility of getting moved to other parts of it?

As others already said, he wasn't forced to join the SS.

If he genuinely wanted to avoid hurting jews almost directly he wouldn't have joined the SS.

 

[Occam]

The "Clean Wehrmacht" (let alone the SS) is a myth.

I don't think anyone is denying that. It's just that at the time Groening joined the Waffen SS, it was seen as an elite military formation, and many young men enlisted because they wanted to be "heroes".

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't think anyone is denying that. It's just that at the time Groening joined the Waffen SS, it was seen as an elite military formation, and many young men enlisted because they wanted to be "heroes".

You keep ignoring the quotes, he saw the horrors and thought the only issue was the excessive way they committed genocide, he saw genocide and said it just needs to be cleaner.

 

[TheYanger]

What good is served not having him face justice?

And forgiveness is not this sacrosanct virtue. You use forgiveness as a weapon when you preach it this way. When you use it to deem those who do not want to forgive as broken, authoritarian, or in need of education.

The good of having him continue to speak out about holocaust denial as a perpetrator (a much more powerful position to actually speak from) is served only by letting him/making him continue to do that.

Like, there's a strong argument for not letting nazis go, but it's not 'forgive him because he's repentant' in this case, it's literally 'hey, thsi guy is doing more good by not sticking him in a cell'

I'm not sure why everyone treats this as black and white, you can both think he's a gross human being that deserves punishment, and also think that it still doesn't outweigh the benefit of doing doing it.

 

[theignoramus]

I wouldn't blame any Holocaust survivor for wanting this guy in a cell. They're entitled to feel any way they want about their Nazi tor mentors, no matter how old they are or if they had a (convenient) change of heart after the war.
Never to forgive, never to forget.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The good of having him continue to speak out about holocaust denial as a perpetrator (a much more powerful position to actually speak from) is served only by letting him/making him continue to do that.

Like, there's a strong argument for not letting nazis go, but it's not 'forgive him because he's repentant' in this case, it's literally 'hey, thsi guy is doing more good by not sticking him in a cell'

I'm not sure why everyone treats this as black and white, you can both think he's a gross human being that deserves punishment, and also think that it still doesn't outweigh the benefit of doing doing it.

Is he doing more good?

Is he doing anything that can't be done while serving out a rather light sentence?

It is black and white, even he thinks he should go to jail.

 

[squidyj]

It will actually. It says no one gets away with being p[art of the Holocaust even if you hide away until you're 96 years old.

Frankly after this long the very idea that you're making a powerful statement is absolutely farcical, he's lived his life to date and loses precious few years. What's the statement? "We'll get you.... eventually.... maybe.... if you willingly offer evidence of your own misdeeds"?

In practical terms it does nothing except hinder him from speaking out against movements and ideologies that are threatening people today.

 

[MUnited83]

What good is served not having him face justice?

And forgiveness is not this sacrosanct virtue. You use forgiveness as a weapon when you preach it this way. When you use it to deem those who do not want to forgive as broken, authoritarian, or in need of education.

Considering he has continously spoken against holocaust denial, having him continue do so would be better than wasting money on his imprisionment, which does literally nothing at this point.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Frankly after this long the very idea that you're making a powerful statement is absolutely farcical, he's lived his life to date and loses precious few years. What's the statement? "We'll get you.... eventually.... maybe.... if you willingly offer evidence of your own misdeeds"?

In practical terms it does nothing except hinder him from speaking out against movements and ideologies that are threatening people today.

He can speak from prison.

You act like he's somehow contributing some super important deed.

Like I said even he knows he belongs in jail.

 

[AmayaPapaya]

And forgiveness is not this sacrosanct virtue.

Didn't say it was, but it has more value than punishment.

What good is served not having him face justice?

You think it's justice? I don't think so. But that's besides the point. Even if this was "justice," it's not worth it.

Where is the good in locking up an old man, indoctrinated at an age where anyone could have been? I can't think of anything good about it.

On top of that, it's 70 years after, when there is no more lesson to teach, and he can help out far more being around and talking. We could use this time to try to get others in the spotlight, who were like him, so they can talk about history. Now they will stay hidden.

What's the bad in doing it? Common. That's easy. A guy who should just be left alone to die, is instead being locked up, for the pleasure of other people. Now, he has to die alone in a cell. Not to mention the history we lose, that mentioned above.
That's bad.

Let's be real. We only lose in doing this. We don't gain anything.

 

[Opto]

Considering he has continously spoken against holocaust denial, having him continue do so would be better than wasting money on his imprisionment, which does literally nothing at this point.

It sends the message that no matter how long you avoid it, being a party to genocide is never something that outruns justice

 

[excelsiorlef]

Considering he has continously spoken against holocaust denial, having him continue do so would be better than wasting money on his imprisionment, which does literally nothing at this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Gröning#Contemporary_comments

It seems his actions were mostly answering letters and phone calls...

He can continue to do most of that in prison.


And hell he doesn't even fully take responsibility:

Gröning does not consider himself guilty of any crime, because he was in no way directly involved in the killing.[3]:298 He describes his part in the extermination machine as an involuntary "small cog in the gears", which gave him involuntary guilt in turn.[4] Citing his summons to testify against a member of the SS accused of murdering prisoners at Auschwitz, he also says he is innocent in the eyes of the law, pointing to the fact that he spoke as a witness and not as a defendant.[4]

In the book and DVD set titled Auschwitz: The Nazis and 'The Final Solution', author Laurence Rees indicates that although Gröning had requested to leave Auschwitz after he witnessed the killing, his objection was only on the basis of its practical implementation, and not on the general militaristic principle of the mass extermination of enemies.[3]:139 Gröning said that he thought at the time that it was justified due to all the Nazi propaganda he had been subjected to, in that Germany's enemies were being destroyed,[3]:139 which to him made the tools of their destruction (such as gas chambers) of no particular significance.[4] Because of this, he says his feelings about seeing people and knowing that they had hours to live before being gassed were "very ambiguous".[3]:139 He explains that children were murdered because, while the children themselves were not the enemy, the danger was the blood within them, in that they could grow up to become dangerous Jews.[3]:139 Rees points to Gröning's ultra-nationalist upbringing as indication of how he was able to justify the extermination of helpless children.[3]:139 Gröning says that the horrors in the gas chambers did eventually dawn on him when he heard the screams.[5]
Rees writes that Gröning describes his time at Auschwitz as if he were talking about another Oskar Gröning at Auschwitz — and as a result, the post-war Gröning speaks more candidly about his time there by segregating the Gröning that contributed to the running of a death camp from the modern Gröning that condemns Nazi ideology.[3]:144

Gröning says that the screams of those in the gas chambers have never left him, and he has never returned to Auschwitz because of his shame.[5] He says he feels guilt towards the Jewish people, and for being part of the organisation that committed crimes against them, despite "not having been one of the perpetrators myself".[5] He asks for forgiveness from God and from the Jewish people.[5]

Even in taking responsibility, he takes no responsibility