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[Tonedeff]

right above you is someone asking for an SS member to die in peace

this is how denial starts

...........ok dude.

 

[jtb]

I mean it clearly is for at least some countries. I have no idea why you would deny that.



Historically this is obviously bunk. You can be a Hobbsian if you want from a theoretical standpoint, but lets not act like that has explanatory powers about the origins of state power.



Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't.




This is basically what he was saying....

Executing laws and punishing violators is definitionally retributive justice. This isn't even a Hobbsian theory of government, I have no idea where you got that from.

Which countries do not punish lawbreakers?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't like this because it might as well be a death sentence. German prisons are good and well equipped but he's 96 and won't live to be free again.

He participated in genocide... He should never be free again, he should never have been free period.

 

[Sad Affleck]

Prison is supposed to be about rehabilitation and the safety of society, not revenge. He poses no danger to anyone and it seems he has been rehabilitated already. Sending him to prison at 96 years of age is wrong. It shows cruelty and vindictiveness which may be desirable by some as payback but it's not how a civilized society should function.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

There is no restorative justice for literal participants of the Holocaust.

This was a side-discussion about what justice means in general. In any case, there are some who'd disagree: see the post above me.

Personally, I'm indifferent. I don't see much point in locking him up now, but I won't cry tears for him either. Edit: I agree with the post below me.

 

[traveler]

I think age is just one of the factors here. I agree that there shouldn't be some defined line where one is "exempt"- and total exemption isn't even the only alternative here. Each situation should be taken into account in its entirety and judged uniquely; that's why we have humans administer our justice instead of simply designing an algorithm to output all sentences from our laws.

I think the discussion around the messages sent is closer to what should really decide this. The message that even being an accessory to genocide or mass murder is a crime you cannot escape justice for is a good one, but the punishment sends more than one message. It also sends the message that if you come forth to campaign against your former deeds, you will incriminate yourself and, as such, you should remain in hiding rather than lending your activism to the world. That isn't a particularly great message.

right above you is someone asking for an SS member to die in peace

this is how denial starts

This is textbook slippery slope fallacy.

 

[RedStep]

You say this with the understanding that he would probably have been shot if he didn't follow orders, yes?

Under Hitler you basically had to kill or be killed.

Read up on the dude - he had no problem with the genocide. His main thing was that they could be killed more efficiently.

as early as his first day, Gröning saw children hidden on the train and people unable to walk that had remained among the rubbish and debris after the selection process had been completed, being shot. Gröning also heard:

"...a baby crying. The child was lying on the ramp, wrapped in rags. A mother had left it behind, perhaps because she knew that women with infants were sent to the gas chambers immediately. I saw another SS soldier grab the baby by the legs. The crying had bothered him. He smashed the baby's head against the iron side of a truck until it was silent."

After witnessing this, Gröning claims he went to his boss and told him that he could not work at Auschwitz anymore, stating that if the extermination of the Jews is necessary, "then at least it should be done within a certain framework".

Yeah... we're not talking about some civilian forced into a desk job here.

 

[phisheep]

I think his stint as a POW doing physical labor would count as time served, no?

No. It wasn't for this crime. You don't count time served for one crime against another completely different one.

 

[ClosingADoor]

To me, it just seems like an old folks home that costs a lot more.
Feels like a misuse of money, even though I understand why it is important to people.

It tells me more about how we mess up with taking care of our elderly, then seeing anything wrong with how old people are being treated in prison. I'm all for harsh sentencing, but if the prisoner is in ill health or old, they should be taken care of in a decent way.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

SS member?

Just hide out until you're old enough for people to stop caring, apparently.

Sure, he willingly took part in the mass industrial slaughter of an entire people, but he's old now! He made it through to the other side of justice by living in peace long enough for me to stop giving a shit.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Some of the Nazi Hunters have been crazy obsessive the last few decades to find people even tangentially related to the concentration camps. I think there was a case where Nazi Hunters shot someone dead in the process of trying to get a Nazi.

They are almost all dead, by now. In a few years time there won't be any OG Nazis alive. I wonder what'll happen then, will they start going after their families? Guys old enough to have been Hitler Youth but not SS/Gestapo? Hell, even they won't be around too much longer. The need to punish is real but when does that end? Most of the people doing the punishing are only tangentially connected to the atrocities themselves.

Its gonna be weird when there is absolutely no one left alive who was associated with the Holocaust or WW2 in general.

 

[Occam]

I don't think there's any evidence that he actually killed anyone at all. Let's not go overboard here.

Yes, neither did he personally kill anyone nor did he order anyone killed.
He didn't choose to go to Auschwitz, he was ordered there on a "special mission" and prior to going had to sign a non disclosure agreement, not knowing what was going on there. Considering that German judges let senior civil servants who came up with increasingly radical anti-Jewish legislation during the Third Reich, thereby paving the road to Auschwitz, get away scott free in the 1960s and that even many of those who personally signed deportation orders got off with little punishment, this judgment seems perplexing. Especially so since according to German law, direct personal guilt needs to be established in order to be sentenced. There's a sarcastic saying in Germany, "the resistance against Hitler increases as time passes".

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is going to accomplish a lot of good /s

It will actually. It says no one gets away with being p[art of the Holocaust even if you hide away until you're 96 years old.

 

[MUnited83]

Prison is supposed to be about rehabilitation and the safety of society, not revenge. He poses no danger to anyone and it seems he has been rehabilitated already. Sending him to prison at 96 years of age is wrong. It shows cruelty and vindictiveness which may be desirable by some as payback but it's not how a civilized society should function.

Basically this. Sending him to prison at this point is nothing more than a waste of money and resources.

 

[Ryuukan]

hm, are we already at the point where we accuse other posters of secretly harboring sympathy for the actual nazis?

the person in question was a member of the SS

he was an actual nazi

wanting him to be left alone because he's an old man is definitely sympathy

so yes, I think we're past that point?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

That's an absurd double standard. If one Nazi is guilty of war crimes, all of them are guilty of war crimes. How can you arbitrary pick and choose based on their "contributions" to humanity?

Are their contributions made invalid?

 

[Gordon Shumway]

He took part in genocide, he shouldn't be exempt a prison sentence just because of his age. The message here is that genocide and mass murder is punishable no matter what. At least he did good by speaking up about it and was an activist against holocaust denial and now is accepting his prison sentence gracefully.

Also, german prison isn't inhumane like in the states, so no need to worry that he'll live the rest of his life there without dignity or whatever.

All of this..

 

[phisheep]

Read up on the dude - he had no problem with the genocide. His main thing was that they could be killed more efficiently.

Yeah... we're not talking about some civilian forced into a desk job here.

Well, but we are talking about someone who was 19 years old when he joined the SS at a recruiting drive at a local hotel, and 23 when he was at Auschwitz. How many of us at 23 would say to the boss exactly what we thought? I certainly didn't.

 

[Westbahnhof]

It tells me more about how we mess up with taking care of our elderly, then seeing anything wrong with how old people are being treated in prison. I'm all for harsh sentencing, but if the prisoner is in ill health or old, they should be taken care of in a decent way.

I don't think I expressed my point well enough.
I'm saying that German prison(for non-violent offenders, old people, ...) is pretty nice, exactly like the home for the elderly where I used to work.
But it costs a lot more.
In my opinion, it's already too late to be the punishment it should have been.
I understand wanting him to pay, though, and I get that letting him off would be a bad look for everyone involved.
But I feel like there is no way to make this anything but a letdown.

I'm not even sure what I would decide if it was up to me.
I think I prefer prison, at this point, after all the attention the case received.

 

[jtb]

I think age is just one of the factors here. I agree that there shouldn't be some defined line where one is "exempt"- and total exemption isn't even the only alternative here. Each situation should be taken into account in its entirety and judged uniquely; that's why we have humans administer our justice instead of simply designing an algorithm to output all sentences from our laws.

I think the discussion around the messages sent is closer to what should really decide this. The message that even being an accessory to genocide or mass murder is a crime you cannot escape justice for is a good one, but the punishment sends more than one message. It also sends the message that if you come forth to campaign against your former deeds, you will incriminate yourself and, as such, you should remain in hiding rather than lending your activism to the world. That isn't a particularly great message.



This is textbook slippery slope fallacy.

So? This message is hardly unique to genocidal murderers. Anyone who hides their wrongdoing can avoid punishment. That doesn't mean you don't seek justice.

 

[Sylas]

What's the point? I genuinely don't understand what the purpose of this is. There's no atonement for what he did, there's no justice in sending a 94 year old man to die in prison and waste money to do so. I don't particularly care about what he's done in the last 40-some odd years. Good on him for trying to do some good after what he did.

But I also don't see the point in putting him in prison just to die. As a 2nd generation Polish Jew who lost all of their heritage to the holocaust, I just don't see the point of sending a man to prison so he can die behind bars. Soon, too, in all likelihood. He's not going to serve a full sentence.

 

[jtb]

Well, but we are talking about someone who was 19 years old when he joined the SS at a recruiting drive at a local hotel, and 23 when he was at Auschwitz. How many of us at 23 would say to the boss exactly what we thought? I certainly didn't.

If you commit a crime at age 18, you are tried as an adult in most countries.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

Oh yeah I sure said that. Damn you caught me. I totally just compared the Holocaust to the wars. Not the fact that American infrantrymen participated in mudering and torturing innocents, taking 'prizes' and 'trophies' fashioned from the dead. Which I suspect will happen in the next war conflict and the hypotetical situation in which America invades NK.

Why don't you read the comment I made next time.

Maybe I was a bit too touchy about that, and I apologize for that. But what the hell are you talking about? I never apologized for Nazis at all,

You are trying to derail a thread about the Holocaust with 'America too!' Making a false comparison between Germany's war of extermination (google Generalplan Ost) and genocide of the Jewish people, to war crimes committed by other countries is a common tactic by Nazi apologists to stifle discussion and diminish the Holocaust. Nice attempt at condicention, but going by your confused here I'll give you the benefit of the doubt say you're just ignorant and stupid rather than a Nazi apologist.

 

[Cocaloch]

Executing laws and punishing violators is definitionally retributive justice.

Not necessarily, you need a positive argument here.

This isn't even a Hobbsian theory of government, I have no idea where you got that from.

You should look at what I quoted there. This

The only reason why the state is even vested with the power to strip a citizen of its rights is because they have violated a law and broken their social contract with the state.

is absolutely Hobbesian.

Which countries do not punish lawbreakers?

Obviously all of them do, but you're the one that bizarrely defined all law enforcement to be based on retribution. This is a meaningless point without first establishing that is true, which will be difficult because it patently isn't.

 

[protomouse]

Justice isn't about what society is best served by. It's about.....punishing the transgressor. We're super lucky he's still alive so we can lock him up.

Are you by any chance American? The most successful justice systems in the world (e.g. Norway) aren't built that way. They're built around protection and rehabilitation. Retribution serves society no greater purpose. It's not productive.

I'm no judge or jury, but this man seems more useful to society doing community service than withering away in a jail cell.

 

[Sephzilla]

So the guy got caught & arrested for speaking out against Holocaust denial? That's pretty shitty.

You know what else is pretty shitty? Being a Nazi

 

[traveler]

So? This message is hardly unique to genocidal murderers. Anyone who hides their wrongdoing can avoid punishment. That doesn't mean you don't seek justice.

I agree, but I'm saying consider how those two messages work together- the argument that this he should be punished to show that you can't escape a crime of this severity even 70 years later is going to be compromised by this. After all, he- and likely anyone else outed that much later than their crime- incriminated himself. Those who make it that far past their crime are unlikely to be caught or worried about being caught; making reparations personally is pretty much the only way that justice would catch them. So are you actually sending the message you can't escape or are you telling people they can escape so long as they attempt no reparations?

 

[commedieu]

Well put.
Just for everyone requesting prison, be aware that something like this might be what he ends up in:

(probably not AS nice, but it's much nicer than you probably think and want)

Whaaaaaaaaaaaatttt

 

[Westbahnhof]

Are you by any chance American?

You tell me.

Honestly, guess.

EDIT: Sorry, these are just too amazing to not share

 

[DopeToast]

I think my natural tendency is to have a general sympathy for people that old. I can't think of another reason why I wouldn't want him in prison for the rest of his life, which I do.

 

[Violet_0]

the person in question was a member of the SS

he was an actual nazi

wanting him to be left alone because he's an old man is definitely sympathy

so yes, I think we're past that point?

I think you misinterpret what some of them are trying to say

traveler worded it nicely:

And the primary debate- which is evident if you read the thread- isn't about whether or not Nazis were just, but what constitutes justice and the proper fulfillment of it.

 

[commedieu]

You tell me.

(Plays star spangled anthem: rock n roll version)

 

[Drencrom]

To me, it just seems like an old folks home that costs a lot more.
Feels like a misuse of money, even though I understand why it is important to people.

Yeah, his housing in prison will most likely look a lot like a regular retirement home but with him being forbidden to get out of the prison facility or his quarter whenever he wants to. What matters is that he got sentenced because of his participation in genocide.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What's the point? I genuinely don't understand what the purpose of this is. There's no atonement for what he did, there's no justice in sending a 94 year old man to die in prison and waste money to do so. I don't particularly care about what he's done in the last 40-some odd years. Good on him for trying to do some good after what he did.

But I also don't see the point in putting him in prison just to die. As a 2nd generation Polish Jew who lost all of their heritage to the holocaust, I just don't see the point of sending a man to prison so he can die behind bars. Soon, too, in all likelihood. He's not going to serve a full sentence.

I hope some of the posters calling everyone they disagree with nazi sympathizers can say that to your face, heh.

I agree, but I'm saying consider how those two messages work together- the argument that this he should be punished to show that you can't escape a crime of this severity even 70 years later is going to be compromised by this. After all, he- and likely anyone else outed that much later than their crime- incriminated himself. Those who make it that far past their crime are unlikely to be caught or worried about being caught; making reparations personally is pretty much the only way that justice would catch them. So are you actually sending the message you can't escape or are you telling people they can escape so long as they attempt no reparations?

Good point. That's pretty much why I'm not that committed to locking him up. If he had stayed quiet but gotten caught in some other way, it'd be a different story.

You tell me.

Honestly, guess.

EDIT: Sorry, these are just too amazing to not share

OMG I remember those hahah, forgot it was this poster. That explains a lot

 

[SixMachine]

Yeah because the USA will be pulling the gold teeth and picking the pockets of dead north koreans

Keep defending nazis

Sadly this actually happened during the wars the US had partaken in. I remember reading an excerpt, a US soldier was pulling out the gold fillings in someone's mouth and the guy was still alive, and it only stopped after someone else went up and shot the victim in the head so he would stop screaming. I think in general no one gets the benefit of the doubt in war. The My Lai massacre is an example of the evil a typical soldier can do under orders. There were 3 servicemen who tried to speak out and intervene but they got shunned by politics, saying that it was meant to defeat insurgents, even though a lot of the casualties were women and children.

 

[phisheep]

I think the discussion around the messages sent is closer to what should really decide this. The message that even being an accessory to genocide or mass murder is a crime you cannot escape justice for is a good one, but the punishment sends more than one message. It also sends the message that if you come forth to campaign against your former deeds, you will incriminate yourself and, as such, you should remain in hiding rather than lending your activism to the world. That isn't a particularly great message.

Since it was me that raised the 'messages sent' thing ... I sort of agree with your last point except for one thing, which is that Groening himself seems to accept it. His line to the court was something like "I know I am morally guilty, it is for the court to decide if I am legally guilty". Which in the circumstances seems an honourable line to take.

Had he sought immunity from prosecution before tackling the holocaust deniers, we'd probably still be stuck in the courts and not have had the benefit of his intervention. I think he always knew this was a possibility and took the risk.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Yeah, his time in prison will most likely look a lot like a regular retirement home deal beside him being forbidden to get out of the prison facility or his quarter whenever he wants to. What matters is that he got sentenced because of his participation in genocide.

I guess I'm not as convinced that it matters, but yeah, if that's enough for you, I can support that line of thinking.
A matter of principle, even if it's not the punishment he still deserves.

 

[Duffman]

You tell me.

Honestly, guess.

EDIT: Sorry, these are just too amazing to not share

lol

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Since it was me that raised the 'messages sent' thing ... I sort of agree with your last point except for one thing, which is that Groening himself seems to accept it. His line to the court was something like "I know I am morally guilty, it is for the court to decide if I am legally guilty". Which in the circumstances seems an honourable line to take.

That's a good point.

 

[Muffin1611]

The guy willingly joined the NSDAP and the SS. He contributed to the machinery which killed millions of people. And as prisoner of war he of course hid it to avoid more severe consequences.

As somebody said, there have been plenty NSDAP members who came off relatively easy, but not just because "they just followed orders". That doesn't always fly. A war crime is a war crime and a soldier couldn't come off the hook that easy if he knew he would be participating in one. Even Goebbels admitted as much once.

Good that he's taking it gracefully and criticizing holocaust denial, but I don't see why he shouldn't sit in prison.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This stuff is super reductive and borderline thread shitting. Just because a Nazi is involved doesn't erase all nuance from a story. And the primary debate- which is evident if you read the thread- isn't about whether or not Nazis were just, but what constitutes justice and the proper fulfillment of it.

There is no nuance here... he literally partook in the Holocaust... that is a crime that can never be atoned for, end of story.

 

[jtb]

Not necessarily, you need a positive argument here.



You should look at what I quoted there. This



is absolutely Hobbesian.



Obviously all of them do, but you're the one that bizarrely defined all law enforcement to be based on retribution. This is a meaningless point without first establishing that is true, which will be difficult because it patently isn't.

I was thinking more Locke/Rousseau where the citizens have consented to the state/social contract and granted the state a monopoly on violence and law enforcement, but to be honest I find this dancing around labels pretty pointless.

I guess my two questions for you are, 1. why do states punish lawbreakers? and 2. what vests a state with the power to strip a citizen of its rights, if it is not the violation of the social contract/laws?

If the violation of a law leads to a punishment for that offense, how is that not in some way - by definition - retributive?

 

[Raptomex]

I don't care about his age or job title. It was a horrific time and if he did nothing to help the Jewish people or prisoners or any other group the Nazi's were trying to eradicate, why should I feel bad for him? Fuck him.

 

[PSqueak]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaatttt

Many first world countries outside the Americas have prisons that are not shitholes of suffering and meant for actual rehabilitation.

It's pretty hard to grasp given the shitholes we call prisons on the countries all over the american continent.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

You tell me.

Honestly, guess.

EDIT: Sorry, these are just too amazing to not share

LMAO..The fuck with the flag in both?

 

[frontovik]

Many first world countries outside the Americas have prisons that are not shitholes of suffering and meant for actual rehabilitation.

It's pretty hard to grasp given the shitholes we call prisons on the countries all over the american continent.

Not completely surprising when American justice is exploitative, vindictive, and thrives on human misery.

 

[Muffin1611]

You tell me.

Honestly, guess.

EDIT: Sorry, these are just too amazing to not share

Considering the times we live in this is fucking hilarious.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The war ended over 50 years ago. If this guy was still out their spewing Nazi rhetoric I would totally agree with punishing him as it would indicate he didn't learn from his past mistakes. Throwing him in jail now after so much time, at such an old age when he had spoken out against holocaust deniers doesn't sound like justice to me.

Over 50 years ago he participated in genocide....

 

[protomouse]

You tell me.

Honestly, guess.

EDIT: Sorry, these are just too amazing to not share

Fucking lol

 

[excelsiorlef]

What's the point?He's 96 years old.Let him die in peace.

Like all those he helped wipe out from existence in excruciating and inhumane fashion?

He deserves no right to die in peace