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[AoM]

That's ridiculous. Actively participating in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent people is not some youthful indiscretion. This man had a front row seat to exactly what Nazism became. He can't be excused or rehabilitated by the fact that he signed on before that happened, because he stayed on even after things took an unimaginably evil turn.

And just because someone doesn't mug and sneer like a movie villain doesn't mean they aren't evil. The true evil is whatever allowed these monsters to exterminate millions of human beings, then go on to lead lives of their own as if nothing had happened. The fact that nazis can seem "normal" decades later, in spite of what they did, is more horrifying than if they behaved like cartoon villains proud of what they had done.

Assuming he wanted out, how would he have gone about doing that?

 

[Tonedeff]

Look, you want to be a collaborator, that's on you

I already said I believed you dude. I have no doubt you'd have sacrificed you and your families lives for the cause.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

What principles?

He was sentenced by a court based on german law then was deemed to be healthy enough to receive punishment.

Proposing he should be above the law because he’s old would be throwing away our principles

Courts aren't infallible, I disagree with the verdict.

 

[Opto]

I already said I believed you dude. I have no doubt you'd have sacrificed you and your families lives for the cause.

Oh now that my family's on the line, maybe I'll commit a little bit of genocide.

Get the fuck outta here with that

 

[excelsiorlef]

And because of that we should throw our principles away?

Principles mean he pays for his crime

 

[Oersted]

Assuming he wanted out, how would he have gone about doing that?

Asking. People did that all the time. In and out.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

It's not so much about revenge imo. It's more about society making it unequivocally clear that actions like these aren't just unnacceptable, but they will never, ever be tolerated or forgiven. They will never go without consequence. That is the message his incarceration 70+ years after the fact should send.

I'm not comfortable sending the alternative message that says playing part in genocide is forgiveable and there are circumstances in which you can buy/wait your way out of the hole you helped dig for all of the countless dead.

Again, nobody is drafted into the SS. It isn't a regular German army unit. This guy might be the nicest person on Earth right now, but in my mind, there is nothing he can do that makes sending that second message okay.

You play any active part in genocide, and society will not forget or forgive. There are crossed lines one shouldn't be able to come back from, because if they're allowed to, it opens the act up for discussion in some capacity.

 

[MastaKilla]

I understand how some people look at this and think wow a 96 year old man who has since dedicated himself to speaking against the atrocity he took part in...lets have sympathy..

But guys, he's a fucking Nazi. Fuck him now, then and forever. I'm glad he's realized the error of his ways, but you can't just erase arguably the biggest tragedy in human history from his resume and pretend it didn't happen.

 

[Tonedeff]

Oh now that my family's on the line, maybe I'll commit a little bit of genocide.

Get the fuck outta here with that

Sure

 

[phisheep]

The fact that nazis can seem "normal" decades later, in spite of what they did, is more horrifying than if they behaved like cartoon villains proud of what they had done.

It's not that they 'seem' normal. They are normal. Normal, ordinary people like you and me. that's horrifying enough in itself.

 

[Occam]

Asking. People did that all the time. In and out.

He did. It was denied. Oops.

 

[Sad Affleck]

So this goes for all crimes right? Serial killers, rapists, robbers? You get away, live a full life, rehabilitate and you're totally good. Any other cases like this?

As StrongBlackVine already said, yes. For most crimes if too much time passes from the act of the crime you can't be procecuted anymore. The reasoning behind this is that when too much time passes the available evidence is diluted, witness testaments become unreliable and there is an increased possibility for an wrong outcome of the trial.

 

[Xando]

Courts aren't infallible, I disagree with the verdict.

You are free to go before the Supreme Court if you think the verdict is not correct.
Thankfully our courts decide on fixed laws and not opinions.

 

[Drencrom]

People aren't forced into becoming SS officers. It isn't a draft. It isn't your regular German army unit.

Yeah, people should learn the difference. Most german soldiers in WWII were civilians that were drafted into war and weren't all nazi believers. Men that got drafted had to fight for their cause in the war or be labeled a traitor (prison or death). SS soldiers on the other hand were all staunch nazi believers, like in the case of Oskar Groening. No one accidentally ended up in SS.

 

[Conciliator]

Again, he was 12 when Hitler came to power. If you can't appreciate how that might fuck up someone's moral compass growing up, perhaps you aren't too aware of what society in Nazi Germany was like. That's not to detract from the fucking merciless scumbags the majority of them were, but people like this guy? He knew no other life, probably had no other influences: it was his world, and from I read about the case he seems to have taken steps to make genuine amends, even if someone tainted like this can never be truly redeemed.

Problem is though that it's very difficult to discuss issues like this without being branded as a Nazi apologist, etc, which is just fucking ridiculous, but that's the end result of the extent to which we've dehumanised the Nazis and made them seem like incarnations of pure evil. They're not, they were human, they were repugnant, but painting them as some sort of mirthless demons is far more dangerous than discussing the ethics of incarcarating this guy now, and risks something similar happening again. How can anyone now be a Nazi when they were just pure evil and not human?

This is a great post. By refusing to recognize the 'regular person'-ness of this guy, we risk dividing the rise of Naziism from any historical or social context. It feels right and pure and simple, but it evades the dirty truths of our human condition, I think the knowledge of which we should make an effort to carry around with us.

 

[PhantomThief]

Could have lived a normal life, but decided to fight Holocaust deniers and this is what he gets for it. Justice system should be about rehabilitation and not revenge, and he has clearly shown through his actions that he regrets his part and he now fights modern day Nazis/Deniers.


If it had to be done, should've put him in for a couple months and called it a day. Prison till he most likely dies is a cruel fate

A crueler fate then what happened to the prisoners at Auschwitz?

Fuck that, lock this old bastard up.

 

[excelsiorlef]

As StrongBlackVine already said, yes. For most crimes if too much time passes from the act of the crime you can't be procecuted anymore. The reasoning behind this is that when too much time passes the available evidence is diluted, witness testaments become unreliable and there is an increased possibility for an wrong outcome of the trial.

Fortunately Murder isn't one of them and neither is genocide.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Under Hitler you basically had to kill or be killed.

This is false. There's documented evidence of soldiers being offered the chance to sit out of killing duties and no evidence of punishment meted out for refusing.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is a great post. By refusing to recognize the 'regular person'-ness of this guy, we risk dividing the rise of Naziism from any historical or social context. It feels right and pure and simple, but it evades the dirty truths of our human condition, I think the knowledge of which we should make an effort to carry around with us.

That'd be lovely if you wasn't using it as a way to conclude that he shouldn't be punished and wasn't using it as a way to dismiss the voluntary nature of what this man did.

Their posts have entirely been based around removing his agency and infantalizing him .

 

[zashga]

Assuming he wanted out, how would he have gone about doing that?

He could have refused to follow orders. He could have resigned his commission. He could've done literally anything other than just going along with it like he had no choice.

If you want to say he would have been executed for doing that, I'm going to want to see some evidence.

It's not that they 'seem' normal. They are normal. Normal, ordinary people like you and me. that's horrifying enough in itself.

I disagree, but I may just be hanging on to my last shred of faith in humanity.

 

[Occam]

Yeah, people should learn the difference. Most german soldiers in WWII were civilians that were drafted into war and weren't all nazi believers. Men that got drafted had to fight for their cause in the war or be labeled a traitor (prison or death). SS soldiers on the other hand were all staunch nazi believers.

That's not correct. About 300,000 Waffen SS soldiers were forced conscripts.

 

[phisheep]

Courts aren't infallible, I disagree with the verdict.

With the verdict or with the sentence? I'm curious as to your reasoning. I find I can't really argue with the verdict, and that given the verdict I can't really argue the sentence. What I do have issue with is the time delay of, what 40 years or so?

 

[Conciliator]

That'd be lovely if you wasn't using it as a way to conclude that he shouldn't be punished and wasn't using it as a way to dismiss the voluntary nature of what this man did.

Throw him in jail if you like.

 

[Opto]

Hell though, if I did commit genocide, I'd hope I had NeoGAF as my jury.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Throw him in jail if you like.

They're going to so thanks.

Hell though, if I did commit genocide, I'd hope I had NeoGAF as my jury.

Seriously

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You are free to go before the Supreme Court if you think the verdict is not correct.
Thankfully our courts decide on fixed laws and not opinions.

pretty sure I as a uninvolved civilian couldn't take a criminal law case to the supreme court. Also there's still an appeal possible if I read that right.

With the verdict or with the sentence? I'm curious as to your reasoning. I find I can't really argue with the verdict, and that given the verdict I can't really argue the sentence. What I do have issue with is the time delay of, what 40 years or so?

oh yeah that was poorly worded I disagree with sending him to prison as he has a high chance of dying there, which doesn't make it particularly different to a death sentence to me.

 

[Oersted]

He did. It was denied. Oops.

Than he could have refused. Woopsie.

 

[Tonedeff]

Hell though, if I did commit genocide, I'd hope I had NeoGAF as my jury.

Most people here want him to be punished harshly......

 

[dripdripsplash]

Telling about the atrocities that you and your peers did do not exempt you from the punishment for doing them too.

Imagine arguing for that for any other mass killing or crime for that matter.

He can tell the world about what the Nazis did as much as he want from inside a prison cell.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Most people here want him to be punished harshly......

Only need one and the ratio isn't as one sided as you think


Here's the fun thing even this guy thinks he should go to jail... Some of y'all are working harder to defend the Nazi than the actual Nazi did.

 

[jtb]

This is a great post. By refusing to recognize the 'regular person'-ness of this guy, we risk dividing the rise of Naziism from any historical or social context. It feels right and pure and simple, but it evades the dirty truths of our human condition, I think the knowledge of which we should make an effort to carry around with us.

But 'regular people' are punished for the crimes they commit, not exempted. If we truly want to recognize his humanity, we should also recognize the responsibilities that come with it - not deny him his agency.

 

[Earthbound64]

He has likely outlived the Majority of prisoners and I'm sure if any surviving Auschwitz Survivor's were asked if a 96 year old Book keeper should serve prison time for this they would object.

You're sure that they would object?
What are you basing this surety on?

That post was absurdly self-centered.

 

[Drencrom]

This is false. There's documented evidence of soldiers being offered the chance to sit out of killing duties and no evidence of punishment meted out for refusing.

Yes there is definitely cases of soldiers being able to sit out if they didn't want to be in the war. But the vast majority of civilians that were conscripted couldn't sit out if they were healthy and were simply labeled a traitor. That's how conscription worked in most countries around this time.

That's not correct. About 300,000 Waffen SS soldiers were forced conscripts.

That's hard to believe, do you have a source?

 

[EloquentM]

Debates like this always remind me about that milgram study from 1963


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

 

[Conciliator]

But 'regular people' are punished for the crimes they commit, not exempted. If we truly want to recognize his humanity, we should also recognize the responsibilities that come with it - not deny him his agency.

I'm not opposed to putting him in jail.

 

[Sad Affleck]

It's not so much about revenge imo. It's more about society making it unequivocally clear that actions like these aren't just unnacceptable, but they will never, ever be tolerated or forgiven. They will never go without consequence. That is the message his incarceration 70+ years after the fact should send.

I'm not comfortable sending the alternative message that says playing part in genocide is forgiveable and there are circumstances in which you can buy/wait your way out of the hole you helped dig for all of the countless dead.

This already happened. This man already escaped justice because our system failed in bringing him to trial at the proper time, when it would have still been meaningful and useful. That time is long past. Society has moved on, the world is completely different now and there is no value to that message anymore. I find the message that our society has evolved past seeking revenge more powerful than the message that the bill will come due at some point.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

To me, justice is rehabilitation and redemption.... with maybe a small bit of punishment, which he already served as a POW... Puting him in prison now would accomplish absolutely nothing

what he did was freaking horrible, but it was 70 years ago and i'd like to think he changed a lot withing all these years, witnessing the world changing (and challenging holocaust deniers right now)

I don't know for him, but not all nazis were monsters, but humans who made big mistakes to protect themselves and their family... There's nazis who tried to assassinate hitler and cooperate with the allies, but they were still nazis, are they monsters too?

I can't agree with that revenge justice that a lot of people has (sure, it's harder to forget revenge when you talk about genocide, i understand that... but still... being emotional is not real justce)

 

[Xando]

pretty sure I as a uninvolved civilian couldn't take a criminal law case to the supreme court. Also there's still an appeal possible if I read that right.

oh yeah that was poorly worded I disagree with sending him to prison as he has a high chance of dying there, which doesn't make it particularly different to a death sentence to me.

You could challenge the law as unconstitutional which would affect this criminal case.

He was deemed healthy enough for his sentence by a doctor so we shouldn’t care whether he might or might not die in prison.

Going by your argument old people would effectively be above the law because they could die in prison

 

[TheYanger]

I like they are still chasing these dudes down, they should never rest for what they were a part of.

If the USA had did something similar after the Civil War, the USA would probably be a lot better off.

I don't think any of this is wrong, I do think though that someone who is actively working to publicize the problems with holocaust denial is probably good to keep doing that rather than to throw in prison. Heck, put him on some kind of parole basically, like make that his punishment - that he HAS to keep doing that stuff. It just seems a bit weird to completely discount everything that has happened since that time regarding this guy. Doing that doesn't mean you're forgiving him, it just means there might be a strong argument against prison. Nothing can undo the shit he did, but that's not what anyone is trying to argue should happen.

He's old, maybe he wasn't going to speak on the issue anymore - that's why I say make him do it as a parole agreement or something. There is both more value to current society in his being outspoken against denial, AND more value to the memory of the dead in doing so.

 

[dripdripsplash]

You're sure that they would object?
What are you basing this surety on?

That post was absurdly self-centered.

Also this part:

Spoiler

He has likely outlived the Majority of prisoners

Jesus. So outliving your victims is an argument for letting him stay huh.

 

[Tonedeff]

Only need one and the ratio isn't as one sided as you think


Here's the fun thing even this guy thinks he should go to jail... Some of y'all are working harder to defend the Nazi than the actual Nazi did.

I'm defending this dude? Where?

 

[Dmax3901]

This already happened. This man already escaped justice because our system failed in bringing him to trial at the proper time, when it would have still been meaningful and useful. That time is long past. Society has moved on, the world is completely different now and there is no value to that message anymore. I find the message that our society has evolved past seeking revenge more powerful than the message that the bill will come due at some point.

 

[Unbounded]

It's a little messed up considering the only reason he's going to jail is because he attempted to do something good.

So basically what they're saying is just vanish and never try to right any wrongs you may have done.

 

[phisheep]

You're sure that they would object?
What are you basing this surety on?

That post was absurdly self-centered.

Well, there's this ...

Eva Mozes Kor, an Auschwitz survivor who has forgiven the Nazis, has said she is "disappointed" that Oskar Groening has been sentenced to imprisonment.

She said: "He has accepted responsibility and admitted his guilt. They are trying to teach a lesson that if you commit such a crime, you will be punished. But I do not think the court has acted properly in sentencing him to four years in jail. It is too late for that kind of sentence."

She went on: "My preference would have been to sentence him to community service by speaking out against neo-Nazis. I would like the court to prove to me, a survivor, how four years in jail will benefit anybody. Groening said in his statements that he was wrong, it never should have happened, and it should never happen again

Source: http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-15/auschwitz-survivor-disappointed-by-groening-jail-term/

 

[Oersted]

Well, there's this ...



Source: http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-15/auschwitz-survivor-disappointed-by-groening-jail-term/

Part of the trial were multiple survivors making statements against him.

 

[Xando]

It's a little messed up considering the only reason he's going to jail is because he attempted to do something good.

So basically what they're saying is just vanish and never try to right any wrongs you may have done.

He was accomplice to genocide.
No matter how much you try you will never right your wrong (Something Mr. Gröning even said himself).

 

[zeemumu]

Some of the Nazi Hunters have been crazy obsessive the last few decades to find people even tangentially related to the concentration camps. I think there was a case where Nazi Hunters shot someone dead in the process of trying to get a Nazi.

How is someone not just able to physically catch up to a Nazi in this day and age? They're all old-ass men. How did he outmaneuver someone so well that the only way to catch him was to use a gun?

 

[Sad Affleck]

I understand.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Part of the trial were multiple survivors making statements against him.

That wasn't the point. That statement proves that not all survivors want this "justice."

 

[mavo]

Americans truly do have the justice system they secretly desire.